Why can't experienced defenders organise themselves?

[Snibbo]

I'm fully with the view that a Hodgson type manager would improve our defence enormously. What I don't get is why the players themselves don't seem to identify and rectify  any of the problems. Our 'new' defence has been together for a while now. They are all experienced and supposedly competent. Between them, even without a coach, you would think they would have come up with some solutions to the problems e.g. man on each post at corners.

[HatterDon]

So, they're just supposed to decide who covers who, who should cover the far post, who goes up for Fulham's corners? What do you think the Championship is, an over 50s Sunday league?

[Snibbo]

So, they're just supposed to decide who covers who, who should cover the far post, who goes up for Fulham's corners? What do you think the Championship is, an over 50s Sunday league?

I suppose I should not be surprised at a sarcastic response to a polite question. Seems to be standard on forums these days and it does annoy me.

In response to your sarcasm, yes, why not? That's my point. Most  other professionals do not want to be micro-managed. In the absence of decent defensive coaching (and most seem to have assumed that Kit did not spend time on these things), surely they can see some of the problems themselves and have a good idea of how to solve them. They are not novices.

[Oakeshott]

Snibbo

Maybe one of the factors is the instructions they are given. For example, two organisational issues are whether (a) the general scheme of marking should be man-to-man or zonal, and (b) at corners men should be on one or both goal posts. IF the coach gives instructions on these issues, then the players don't have the discretion to organise themselves.

Then comes the issue of practice. When Roy took over there were rumours that the players were bored with his repetitious training drills as he tried to impress on the squad how he wanted them to be organised, and that these mutterings only subsided when the discipline he engendered through them started to pay off in terms of results. In short, Roy had both a method of defence (two lines of four with the front men also expected to be major contributors to defence) and required the squad to practice it time and time again until it became second nature.

It is inconceivable that Kit and Peter Grant haven't given the squad some defensive instructions. But they may not be as clear as for example Roy's, leaving the players in some doubt as to what they should be doing. In addition, in a quote discussed on the board at the time, Kit said that something to the effect that he didn't go in for the type of repetious drills that Roy employed, because it bored the players.

In short, I think our players probably lack sufficiently clear instructions and are certainly insufficient drilling as to deploying those they have been given. Thus the players are left to do the best they can within their instructions and in many situations are uncertain.

Since the time MAF took over I think we have had three managers with a clear sense of how they wanted the team to be set up and play - Tigana, Sanchez and Roy. The rest seem either to have no clear idea or to vary what they try to do game by game. The former can be disasterous if the approach is inadequate (eg Sanchez), and the latter can be great when it works (the way Chris Coleman set up the team to beat Chelsea at the Cottage by nullifying the contribution of their holding midfielder). But all too often the teams set up by Chris, Jol and Kit have seemed to me to be insufficiently organised and none of those managers have seemed to be able to change things around when their first half approaches have not worked well.

One of the attractions with Steve Clarke and Stuart Gray is that they are reputed to be good at organising defences. I haven't watched enough of their teams to know whether that is right, but if it is maybe Gray will prove, if appointed, much better than some here currently fear. And of course it needs to be remembered that, early on, we had some dire performances under Roy (home against Sunderland, for example) as it took time for the squad to learn how to put what he wanted into practice. So whoever we do get next it is not reasonable to expect an immediate turn around.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

So, they're just supposed to decide who covers who, who should cover the far post, who goes up for Fulham's corners? What do you think the Championship is, an over 50s Sunday league?

Do you think a group of highly experienced and highly paid players are zombies that have to be moved around by some external intelligence as in a computer game?

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Oakeshott, you make some very good points and I am sure that there is a lot of truth in what you say.

Still Symons seemed approachable, unlike Magath, so you might hope the players would say, in a diplomatic way, that they needed to work on and refine the defensive approach. Even more so with Grant who they know is only in charge temporarily.

I believe the players changed the system under Hughes after the Boxing Day debacle and Hughes doesn't come across as a soft touch but maybe there lies the problem. Hodgson (with help from Murphy and others) had made that group of players an integrated team. I don't see that sort of cohesion with the current squad yet.

[Chutney]

The defenders can't do it themselves, Stearman has been relegated from this division twice, he's hardly shown himself to be solid at this level. They need a coach to get them to keep it simple and to organize them at set pieces, they simply are not good enough to do it themselves. If we sign four brand new, better defenders, then maybe they could be relied on to organise themselves, but we don't have that option currently.

[SG]

The first thing a defensive coach should do is to tell our full backs that it is their job to prevent crosses into the box. You hear Neville on Sky saying - the winger was not under pressure and it was too easy for him to cross the ball. It isn't that difficult really to coach them in the basics. Just watch the goals we concede - the person putting the ball into the box is rarely under pressure.

[Lighthouse]

The players should be able to look at different situations and adapt to what is going on without being over coached. My problem with the team is that we are making the same errors with different personnel. If anything the coaching is the one constant. We have for years been poor at defending crosses and corners.

So I do wonder why the different players that turn up for the club and slip into the back four are all making exactly the same errors. The club keeps wanting to have coaches and that can fit into the system at the club. Well that clearly isn't working.

[Bronaldinho]

We need a defensive coach, I can't shy away from that.

I think that's the main reason so many people wanted Sam Allardyce and Tony Pulis when they were available.

Forget what they've done in the past, both managers would have worked wonders in that department.

[ron]

So, they're just supposed to decide who covers who, who should cover the far post, who goes up for Fulham's corners? What do you think the Championship is, an over 50s Sunday league?

Do you think a group of highly experienced and highly paid players are zombies that have to be moved around by some external intelligence as in a computer game?

Possibly, yes. Reams have been written about the assumed intelligence of footballers, and as for the highly paid angle, they are lucky to be playing in an industry awash with Sky cash.

It may be that close direction is exactly what's required in the form of drilling which takes away some decision making from the players, but utilises their playing strengths and abilities. If they could do it all amongst themselves, then we wouldn't have to be looking for a coach/manager in the first place.

On the other hand, if the players are capable of sorting out tactics themselves, then a non-playing coach/manager is still useful in standing back and taking a detached view of the play....

[Skatzoffc]

Snibbo

Maybe one of the factors is the instructions they are given. For example, two organisational issues are whether (a) the general scheme of marking should be man-to-man or zonal, and (b) at corners men should be on one or both goal posts. IF the coach gives instructions on these issues, then the players don't have the discretion to organise themselves.

Then comes the issue of practice. When Roy took over there were rumours that the players were bored with his repetitious training drills as he tried to impress on the squad how he wanted them to be organised, and that these mutterings only subsided when the discipline he engendered through them started to pay off in terms of results. In short, Roy had both a method of defence (two lines of four with the front men also expected to be major contributors to defence) and required the squad to practice it time and time again until it became second nature.

It is inconceivable that Kit and Peter Grant haven't given the squad some defensive instructions. But they may not be as clear as for example Roy's, leaving the players in some doubt as to what they should be doing. In addition, in a quote discussed on the board at the time, Kit said that something to the effect that he didn't go in for the type of repetious drills that Roy employed, because it bored the players.

In short, I think our players probably lack sufficiently clear instructions and are certainly insufficient drilling as to deploying those they have been given. Thus the players are left to do the best they can within their instructions and in many situations are uncertain.

Since the time MAF took over I think we have had three managers with a clear sense of how they wanted the team to be set up and play - Tigana, Sanchez and Roy. The rest seem either to have no clear idea or to vary what they try to do game by game. The former can be disasterous if the approach is inadequate (eg Sanchez), and the latter can be great when it works (the way Chris Coleman set up the team to beat Chelsea at the Cottage by nullifying the contribution of their holding midfielder). But all too often the teams set up by Chris, Jol and Kit have seemed to me to be insufficiently organised and none of those managers have seemed to be able to change things around when their first half approaches have not worked well.

One of the attractions with Steve Clarke and Stuart Gray is that they are reputed to be good at organising defences. I haven't watched enough of their teams to know whether that is right, but if it is maybe Gray will prove, if appointed, much better than some here currently fear. And of course it needs to be remembered that, early on, we had some dire performances under Roy (home against Sunderland, for example) as it took time for the squad to learn how to put what he wanted into practice. So whoever we do get next it is not reasonable to expect an immediate turn around.

Good points Oakeshott. A couple of my own opinions:-


I think that people like Kit were too "Mr Nicey" to get players to do what they are told.
You can't drill it into players if you want to be everyone's pal at the same time.

A lot of the time, I think it is down to making a leader (defensively).
We probably all agree footballers are not, (in general), the brightest lamps in the box. So keeping it simple and assigning a leader to tell people what to do in varying situations on the pitch is vital imo.

People tend to work better when they are lead by he nose or kicked up the backside. That way they can't be blamed when it all goes pear-shaped.

8-)

COYW!

[dannyboi-ffc]

So, they're just supposed to decide who covers who, who should cover the far post, who goes up for Fulham's corners? What do you think the Championship is, an over 50s Sunday league?

I suppose I should not be surprised at a sarcastic response to a polite question. Seems to be standard on forums these days and it does annoy me.

In response to your sarcasm, yes, why not? That's my point. Most  other professionals do not want to be micro-managed. In the absence of decent defensive coaching (and most seem to have assumed that Kit did not spend time on these things), surely they can see some of the problems themselves and have a good idea of how to solve them. They are not novices.

"There IS a lot of it about....." That sentence rings a bell.

By the way Snibbo I totally understand where you're coming from.  Obviously even the most experienced of players need coaching to maintain a maximum Level of awareness and organisation. But considering how experienced our centre halves are it is quite worrying Matt Mills almost scored a hatrick.

The players need to take responsibility as well and I think with things like set pieces it is more apparent that we lack a leader. Someone to scream at the others what to do. Even if they are coached and given roles you still need these leaders in your team and we don't have them.

In defence of the players I feel sorry for them in the circumstances. It must be hard to focus and disheartening for those who signed for us thinking we were better than Wolves or Blackburn only to find out we are more of a joke than anyone.

[filham]

I feel sure that all involved in coaching the first team at Fulham over the last two years must have spent hour upon hour trying to improve our defence.

At the end of the day you rely on the players  and none of our players tried in the last couple of years come up to the individual standard of the players employed by Roy. In particular we have had no one near the quality of Hughes and Hangeland.

[J]

The crux of the problem with the attitude the players should be able to sort it out themselves is that instinct on the pitch and what is actually the best way to defend a situation are often not aligned.

That is why players can't just "sort it out". They might have experience doing this that or some other at previous clubs but if fulham are playing a different system (in the details,not just formation) then this prior knowledge will probably cause issues as much as it solves.

And as for your example, 2 guys go OK I'm going to stand on the post... What about the people they are meant to be marking?! It is not that simple. You need the whole team working together not just the defenders.

@filham I am not sure why you believe that? I'm sure that the club has done some defensive work, deciding who marks who and the other basics. But all good defensive managers acknowledge that to get a team organised positionally and defensively requires a lot of boring repetitive training and I don't see any evidence we have been doing that. Plus I think you are giving too much credit to the players "natural ability" and not enough to Roy and the work done on the training ground.

[HatterDon]

So, they're just supposed to decide who covers who, who should cover the far post, who goes up for Fulham's corners? What do you think the Championship is, an over 50s Sunday league?

Do you think a group of highly experienced and highly paid players are zombies that have to be moved around by some external intelligence as in a computer game?

No, but somebody has to be in charge. Unless we're willing to give one of our defenders player-coach status, it's up to the coaching staff to determine how we set up for dead-ball situations. It's unrealistic to expect the defenders to huddle up and decide during the match.

And, Mr. Snibbo, I didn't mean to demean your post. I apologize.