Fulham and Shahid Khan look for answers with League One abyss nearing

[MJG]

An excellent article.  I await the final two paragraphs and change of heading, some time after May 7th.

Good discussion on here, but I agree with Arthur's comments, above (and those of TWFL).  I still firmly believe that SK bought the club with good intentions - to maintain or improve on the success of the previous 10 years or so.

The willingness of people on this forum to call Club officials incompetent, idiots, clueless etc. is not something I would ever condone.  Very few on here are in a position to make informed judgements.

Football is played with a bouncing ball and involves split-second decisions by sportsmen whose frame of mind can affect their play as much as their skills can.  I always smile when I hear comments like, " . . . have got to make sure they don't concede between now and half-time".  If only it were that easy !

I don't there is any malice on Khan's part. The problem is that he's apathetic. The club is a billionaire's trophy to him. If he gave a half poo, he would have been to more than a handful of matches in his 2 1/2 years of owning the club. That's an informed judgement by the way.

As for Ali Mac and Rigg, we've seen them fail in their leadership of the club throughout their tenure. This is also an informed judgement.

Otherwise up is down and down is up.

I just dont buy the apathetic comments. Its a business he has invested more than £230M, he has employees running it like they do his other ventures.

This article explains he was once again over here looking at the issues.
Also this whole 'sit in the stand' thing is a red herring. You really think any player is going to be cheered on to move faster to a ball because he has a few words before the gmae or is sitting high up. We all he agree he knows sod all about football and I bet my house that if it came out he was in the dressing room before game giving a speech most would moan about him doing it because he knows jack poo.

Apathy is not the word that comes to mind. He employed people maybe the wrong ones but hes tried.

One of the issues we disagree about and please forgive me. His no attendance on matchday speaks volumes, it sends all the wrong messages and when things are wrong, and they are, it shaows an abject lack of proper leadership. He needs to be there on Saturday for the whole match, win, lose or draw, he just does it is night following day. It shows we are in it together, with the captain at the helm, not sitting below decks twiddling his thumbs.

The one thing this is not is a red herring, it is rank bad judgement.

I don't disagree at all that it would be good if he is there Saturday let me be clear on that.
Oh and by the way there will be people who post 'look he only turns up when its this bad' so cant win

What we will disagree on is the difference it makes.

[MJG]

Apathy as defined in the English Oxford Collins Dictionary is ....."Lack of interest, enthusiasm or concern."

And?

All well and good coming out with that but so what

[jarv]

Really good thread, very interesting and thought out comments. Khan....when he bought Fulham, the ship was listing a bit but relatively easy fix (don't yell at me...Pulis). Due to (as everyone more or less agrees) totally incompetent managent, the ship has now capsized but not sunk yet. However, the crew do seem to be up **** creek without a paddle.

Pulis, was available and always has teams finish between 8 and 14. I know, not relevant now, just saying. :Get Coat gif:

[MJG]

Really good thread, very interesting and thought out comments. Khan....when he bought Fulham, the ship was listing a bit but relatively easy fix (don't yell at me...Pulis). Due to (as everyone more or less agrees) totally incompetent managent, the ship has now capsized but not sunk yet. However, the crew do seem to be up **** creek without a paddle.

Pulis, was available and always has teams finish between 8 and 14. I know, not relevant now, just saying. :Get Coat gif:

Pulis..... really? in the week around the anniversary of the death at Gillingham you raise that scumbags name

[rubbernecca]

 :plus one:

An excellent article.  I await the final two paragraphs and change of heading, some time after May 7th.

Good discussion on here, but I agree with Arthur's comments, above (and those of TWFL).  I still firmly believe that SK bought the club with good intentions - to maintain or improve on the success of the previous 10 years or so.

The willingness of people on this forum to call Club officials incompetent, idiots, clueless etc. is not something I would ever condone.  Very few on here are in a position to make informed judgements.

Football is played with a bouncing ball and involves split-second decisions by sportsmen whose frame of mind can affect their play as much as their skills can.  I always smile when I hear comments like, " . . . have got to make sure they don't concede between now and half-time".  If only it were that easy !

I don't there is any malice on Khan's part. The problem is that he's apathetic. The club is a billionaire's trophy to him. If he gave a half poo, he would have been to more than a handful of matches in his 2 1/2 years of owning the club. That's an informed judgement by the way.

As for Ali Mac and Rigg, we've seen them fail in their leadership of the club throughout their tenure. This is also an informed judgement.

Otherwise up is down and down is up.

I just dont buy the apathetic comments. Its a business he has invested more than £230M, he has employees running it like they do his other ventures.

This article explains he was once again over here looking at the issues.
Also this whole 'sit in the stand' thing is a red herring. You really think any player is going to be cheered on to move faster to a ball because he has a few words before the gmae or is sitting high up. We all he agree he knows sod all about football and I bet my house that if it came out he was in the dressing room before game giving a speech most would moan about him doing it because he knows jack poo.

Apathy is not the word that comes to mind. He employed people maybe the wrong ones but hes tried.

One of the issues we disagree about and please forgive me. His no attendance on matchday speaks volumes, it sends all the wrong messages and when things are wrong, and they are, it shaows an abject lack of proper leadership. He needs to be there on Saturday for the whole match, win, lose or draw, he just does it is night following day. It shows we are in it together, with the captain at the helm, not sitting below decks twiddling his thumbs.

The one thing this is not is a red herring, it is rank bad judgement.

Yes nose, you have summed it up very well.

[rubbernecca]

Apathy as defined in the English Oxford Collins Dictionary is ....."Lack of interest, enthusiasm or concern."

And?

All well and good coming out with that but so what

Your argument is that he's put a lot of money into the club so he's not apathetic. He paid about the same for his yacht as for FFC and probably spent more time on it. It just appears to me that FFC is just another billionaire's trophy to him.

[MJG]

Apathy as defined in the English Oxford Collins Dictionary is ....."Lack of interest, enthusiasm or concern."

And?

All well and good coming out with that but so what

Your argument is that he's put a lot of money into the club so he's not apathetic. He paid about the same for his yacht as for FFC and probably spent more time on it. It just appears to me that FFC is just another billionaire's trophy to him.

that's not he whole argument at all, and hasn't a football nearly always been someone's plaything really?  Even the most ardent fans of a club don't always make the best owners.

[RaySmith]

I think Khan does care  a lot about what happens to Fulham - it's his investment for a start, into which he has put a lot of money. Plus I  just think he wouldn't like to be forever associated with Fulham's  sudden decline - for business, and personal, reasons.

I'm sure, for business, and personal, reasons, he would like to be linked with Fulham being successful.

[MikeW]

Good debate on a well researched article - bar a few hiccups.

I shared it with a Fulham sympathetic friend but who is by no means a fan.

He observed the 'time line' approach the writer took highlighted what an alarming descent we have taken since Khan took over.  Managers, players, League positions, and club management.  All going the same way - downwards!

[TWFL]

Good debate on a well researched article - bar a few hiccups.

I shared it with a Fulham sympathetic friend but who is by no means a fan.

He observed the 'time line' approach the writer took highlighted what an alarming descent we have taken since Khan took over.  Managers, players, League positions, and club management.  All going the same way - downwards!

I agree with that. He is the common denomination amongst that and a head of the business but should the flak should fall on him?

Yes it was ultimately his decision to hire certain managers or players but all of whom were most likely recommended to him by another. I don't think our problems lie with Khan, more that they lie with the football decision makers i.e. Ali Mac, during his tenure in charge of football and commercial; Mike Rigg, bringing in the players and slowness in the appointment after Kit; even the 5 man committee (Murph and McBride were amongst that weren't they?) for going with Kit in the end.

The issue is that at the time of a majority of these decision - bar after the Symons one and perhaps a few of the signings - we as a group of fans were behind them. Most of us called for a Fulham man after Magath, most of us were content with a madman due to his track record of keeping teams up, to name two examples. We have been just as wrong as them at times, proving it's a difficult business. 

It's a difficult mess and personally I'm not sure where to begin with resolving it. In my opinion, yes we do need a change, a large one. But first, we need to scrape through this season, starting with MK on Sat and the only thing we can do to help is to provide some support and not get on the backs of the players or the manager quickly, that will only end badly for all involved. 

[love4ffc]

Have never know an accountant to become a CEO.  A CFO (Chief Finical Officer) yes but not CEO.  Most CEO's I have meet and dealt with had a masters in business with some type of marketing or engineering background.  Not saying it's not possible for an accountant to become a CEO just saying I've not meet one. 

[Mighty Maik]

Shahid Khan is among the least successful owners of professional sports teams. Our decline under his stewardship is clear. This isn't bad luck. This is the result of absentee management and the trust in people with limited vision - whether that is Crag Kline or someone else. Apropos of Craig Kline - remember somthing that escaped Mr. Kline. Billy Bean, the man who seemed to embrace "analytics" as a way to improve a baseball team on a limited budget, also played baseball. He understood the influence of a player's attitude to his ability to play at the highest level. To win or to bottle. He knew this because he was tested at the highest level and failed as a player. He suceeded as a manager because he knew his stats but he also knew the game that the stats represented. Anyone who saw Senderos play knew his stats for pass completion would be excellent - he always passed back or flat. He never had vision forward. If you hadn't seen him play you would be deceived  by his stats. Both Tony Khan and Craig Kline thought they could redescribe how to win in Englsih football through analytics. They have failed. Shahid Khan's absence at the games is important. It means he can't sense the situation he has to depend on it being described to him. Can you imagine Mike Rigg describing the situation to him? Would it be a fair description? Would he tell him that the players he had recruited weren't up to it? No, of course not. He would say the squad was first rate. His commentary would be a Senderos back pass. Flattering to deceive. Alistair Mackintosh ran the club well when he had a Chairman who supported him and a board who guided him. He didn't suddenly become a bad CEO. Shahid Khan made him a bad chief exec - but forcing him to accept guidance from an ill equiped group of people.  Khan has used Alistair to catch his bullets - in the same way that he used the committee of five. A football club is not a manufacturing company. It is a living breathing thing - with people at the heart of its success - both on the field and in the stands. This appears to be Khan's blind spot, both in Jacksonville and in West London.

What did Kit do well? He brought the team together. He made them play for each other for a brief time. What does Khan, through his son, Craig Kline, or Mark Lamping do? He makes them statistics. His ability with things seems certain. His ability with people less so.

Khan has been a terrible owner. Anyone who could interview Felix Magath, allow him to viscerate the club and at the same time neuter the only person (Alistair Mackintosh) who could have stopped his wilful destruction of  FFC deserves to lose his money. I wish he would allow people that understand the visceral, human qualities of a football club to run it. Because he seems to show no intention of doing this, I wish he would sell the club.

[Domino1879]

Shahikd Khan is among the least successful owners of professional sports teams. Our decline under his stewardship is clear. This isn't bad luck. This is the result of absentee management and the trust in people with limited vision - whether that is Crag Kline or someone else. Apropos of Craig Kline - remember somthing that escaped Mr. Kline. Billy Bean, the man who seemed to embrace "analytics" as a way to improve a baseball team on a limited budget, also played baseball. He understood the influence of a player's attitude to his ability to play at the highest level. To win or to bottle. He knew this because he was tested at the highest level and failed as a player. He suceeded as a manager because he knew his stats but he also knew the game that the stats represented. Anyone who saw Senderos play knew his stats for pass completion would be excellent - he always passed back or flat. He never had vision forward. If you hadn't seen him play you would be deceived  by his stats. Both Tony Khan and Craig Kline thought they could redescribe how to win in Englsih football through analytics. They have failed. Shahid Khan's absence at the games is important. It means he can't sense the situation he has to depend on it being described to him. Can you imagine Mike Rigg describing the situation to him? Would it be a fair description? Would he tell him that the players he had recruited weren't up to it? No, of course not. He would say the squad was first rate. His commentary would be a Senderos back pass. Flattering to deceive. Alistair Mackintosh ran the club well when he had a Chairman who supported him and a board who guided him. He didn't suddenly become a bad CEO. Shahid Khan made him a bad chief exec - but forcing him to accept guidance from an ill equiped group of people.  Khan has used Alistair to catch his bullets - in the same way that he used the committee of five. A football club is not a manufacturing company. It is a living breathing thing - with people at the heart of its success - both on the field and in the stands. This appears to be Khan's blind spot, both in Jacksonville and in West London.

What did Kit do well? He brought the team together. He made them play for each other for a brief time. What does Khan, through his son, Craig Kline, or Mark Lamping do? He makes them statistics. His ability with things seems certain. His ability with people less so.

Khan has been a terrible owner. Anyone who could interview Felix Magath, allow him to viscerate the club and at the same time neuter the only person (Alistair Mackintosh) who could have stopped his wilful destruction of  FFC deserves to lose his money. I wish he would allow people that understand the visceral, human qualities of a football club to run it. Because he seems to show no intention of doing this, I wish he would sell the club.

Fair analysis, and I wouldn't disagree.
American owners have a poor track record of football clubs here and we all know Khan made an almighty cock up by getting rid of nearly all the Board and bringing in his Jacksonville buddies.
However, we are stuck with him and somehow we need to keep him interested in the club.
I live in hope that he is at heart a businessman and will not want to lose money. 

[Jack Fulham]

Whatever Shahid Khan is doing, he's doing it wrong. He should cut his losses and find someone else to buy this club.

Regrettably, that isn't going to happen so now we will just end up in a unhappy owner/fan relationship.

Lets see what Tony Khan's formulas bring us this summer!

[nose]

Whatever Shahid Khan is doing, he's doing it wrong. He should cut his losses and find someone else to buy this club.

Regrettably, that isn't going to happen so now we will just end up in a unhappy owner/fan relationship.

Lets see what Tony Khan's formulas bring us this summer!

please don't say that
it is bad enough already
they do not know what they are doing i am afraid.

[The Rock]

What a bunch of miserable sods you all are.

Sorry to be an optimist, but I don't see Khan being the type of person to make a club suffer. I don't think he has the football knowledge to do so. As the article states, every action he's made or change he's implemented has been well-meaning and intending of success. However, that's just not been the case for multiple reasons. You all want him desperately involved and yet when he is you all scream lies and deceit. Can you ever accept something for what it is? Why does everything have to be read between the lines?

Oh and Kline is still with Fulham, whoever brought that up, he's just based in America as the article citing him and his situation said however many weeks ago it was. But hey, why read an article and believe it when you can make up completely factless arguments? No fun in truth is there..

Anyway, good article. Sensible and well written, shame it's desperately true.

Stupidity is not an excuse anymore. Don't mean to be harsh and good comments.

[The Rock]

I cant see who actually wrote this but its a summary about whats gone on and that's fine.
But one bit stood out and its almost in passing  "the accountant-turned-CEO"

This is a comment made about him many times, but then where do CEO's come from? Where should they come from? And is it a bad thing he was an accountant? What should be the job spec of a CEO of a football club?

I know we do always see eye to eye but I do think your comment is one of the best and most intelligent I have seen on the MB for ages. What is the nature of a CEO and what in particular do you need from him in a football club.

I personally have no problem with the man being an ex accountant but on the other hand accountants are not necesarilly good businessmen in their own right. An accountant tends to understand the tax implication of situations and the general health of an organisation based on money and assets, that does not imply they can run or drive an organisation forward. I am not an accountant but use there services, if I ran my business on strict accounting guidelines, we would ceased to have existed years ago.

So in a football club, or any organisation you need primarilly a leader or high class manager that sets and allows a framework where the experts and specialists can get on with their jobs and achieve (hopefully) the targets that have been set. The CEO must act when things are going wrong and step back a little when they are going well. What is difficult for me to understand is the relationship between owner and CEO in a modern football club.  One of them has to show dynamic leadership and that is not the same as being a manager. Management can be taught, leadership is a gift.

I was not refering to our club, but ferom what I have seen we lack leadership and worse still the CEO seems to have presided over far too many avoidable errors.

It sounds like you are saying that certain people with a specific expertise and role should not be responsible for another 3-4 roles just because they are closely related to those roles, and that, that consolidation could be a very bad business decision.

Like Khan.

Apologies if I am taking this out of context, but there is a valid point to be made beyond all the BS and I think you are spot on.

[Justme]

As a quick stat regarding Accountants as CEOs:
51% of CEOs in FTSE 100 companies have strong financial backgrounds, and half of those are chartered accountants.
Source: Robert Half salary survey 2010

Although a bit out of date it does show that some major organisations have identified Accountants with the right skills to be their CEO. Clearly this doesn't mean that every Accountant is suitable to be a CEO.

The role of the CEO can vary considerably between different organisations and will depend on the industry, the organisation's structure and the key tasks designated by the Board. For example there will be a significant difference in the role of the CEO at a hospital compared with the CEO of a major multinational company.

The skills required of a CEO will also vary depending on the success or otherwise of the organisation. If an organisation is struggling the skillset required by the CEO is significantly different from managing a thriving organisation.

From all of the details available the role of the CEO at Fulham is to focus on the Commercial part of the business and the development of the club's facilities. The reports would appear to show that those elements are going well.

Responsibility for the 'product on the pitch' is clearly with Mike Rigg. There seemed to be a relatively positive feeling about the recruitment last summer but that was never translated onto the pitch. All this would suggest we need to review the style we want play and how we will get there through strategic recruitment whichever league we are in next year.

[nose]

I cant see who actually wrote this but its a summary about whats gone on and that's fine.
But one bit stood out and its almost in passing  "the accountant-turned-CEO"

This is a comment made about him many times, but then where do CEO's come from? Where should they come from? And is it a bad thing he was an accountant? What should be the job spec of a CEO of a football club?

I know we do always see eye to eye but I do think your comment is one of the best and most intelligent I have seen on the MB for ages. What is the nature of a CEO and what in particular do you need from him in a football club.

I personally have no problem with the man being an ex accountant but on the other hand accountants are not necesarilly good businessmen in their own right. An accountant tends to understand the tax implication of situations and the general health of an organisation based on money and assets, that does not imply they can run or drive an organisation forward. I am not an accountant but use there services, if I ran my business on strict accounting guidelines, we would ceased to have existed years ago.

So in a football club, or any organisation you need primarilly a leader or high class manager that sets and allows a framework where the experts and specialists can get on with their jobs and achieve (hopefully) the targets that have been set. The CEO must act when things are going wrong and step back a little when they are going well. What is difficult for me to understand is the relationship between owner and CEO in a modern football club.  One of them has to show dynamic leadership and that is not the same as being a manager. Management can be taught, leadership is a gift.

I was not refering to our club, but ferom what I have seen we lack leadership and worse still the CEO seems to have presided over far too many avoidable errors.

It sounds like you are saying that certain people with a specific expertise and role should not be responsible for another 3-4 roles just because they are closely related to those roles, and that, that consolidation could be a very bad business decision.

Like Khan.

Apologies if I am taking this out of context, but there is a valid point to be made beyond all the BS and I think you are spot on.

Actually I think that the best person for the job is what is required. sometimes one person is capable of doing a number of jobs and sometimes one needs specialists to be blinkered.
In this respect what is clear is that our board has failed repeatedly and as such the head man, that is to say the CEO, just has to be held to account. What is also clear is that there are multiple failures from his team as well and as such certain specialists need to be held to account too. IMO we have been in reverse for so long and nothing sensible is being done to correct that. It is obvious we need a change of personnel, from what we have to people that have a grasp of what needs to be done in a football team; what we do not need are a bunch of US based theoraticians that use inappropriate techniques to try and run our club. Until we see that type of radical change we should all remain worried. The issue with stat based transfer policy made me think maybe Mr Khan will not succeed, prior to that I thought he might. By itself it will not bring failure, but it is indicative from how he really fails to grasp what needs to be done.

I love joca, he is the one glimmer of light. I hope the vultures that can ionly see short term do not hound him out because the poor squad fail to get results for him.

[Funky Fulham Dave]

Further to the excellent article in the GUARDIAN (how can you hate such a purveyor of truth?) I was reminded of an article some years back about absentee football club owners.

"If you own a football club you have to be really involved and committed."

"That is very important and it's the same in business."

"You have to be really caring and show people you really care".

These were just a few of the quotes that appeared in a GUARDIAN interview (11.5.10) with Mohamed Al Fayed six years ago.

The headline of the piece summed it up nicely.

"It's difficult for an owner to show true love if you are far away".

And of course Mr Khan is a long, long way, away.

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