How safe are we at Fulham ?

[Woolly Mammoth]

I hate to be the elephant in the room it I walk into the cottage without a single security check done. I am not one to live in fear as I guess we all are but our biggest danger at the cottage is not from fire. Make sure we are safe from fire definitely and if fire safety needs revising then let's do it tomorrow. Our biggest danger is our lax security and a nutter from any religious or political persuasion bringing something designed to hurt walking in with a ticket he bought of a tout. Stadiums should have an iron wall imo. I also believe this does absolutely nothing to prevent a nutcase from unleashing in the cue to the iron wall but we can only hope that there aren't that many people out there that want to hurt us. We will all still turn up. I will stil turn up. I doubt that all the bad people in the world could ever beat the over welming majority of good people in the world if they tried.

Good post

[toshes mate]

The Johnny Haynes Stand is a unique structure which was repeated elsewhere hence its protected status.  It does not mean it is unsafe or vulnerable to fire as in the case of the terrible Bradford tragedy involving a stand almost entirely constructed of wood.  In fact sports stadia are, these days, much safer than the homes we live in where most accidents and injuries occur. 

The Grenfell Tower tragedy is something else entirely and whilst a lot of finger pointing has gone on I'd prefer to see all the evidence before jumping to conclusions.  What we already know is that although the recently added cladding was highly inflammable the design brief (already in public domain) suggests it should have been fitted in such a way as to prevent fire spreading to it or from it which clearly, from live pictures of the fire, didn't happen..

[abfg]

Obviously I don't know that much specifically about the Grenfall and our own fire safety levels, but there are some important differences I can pretty well know as I used to design detectors and products for fire safety systems.

The first is that the rules for residential buildings, such as they are, are ones that only apply to buildings and structures either massively renovated or built after the rules change. This actually means that there are huge numbers of buildings protected under decades old fire systems that still "pass". The reasoning is that it is impractical to rewire and refit each time the rules change. The Grenfall system appears to have been such a system. Additionally, modern practice for rescue is generally a 'stay put' evacuation. This means that the floor and maybe a couple of floors either side that are ablaze are immediately evacuated and everybody else waits to be evacuated by the Fire services. This works in new build because each floor is a fire and smoke proof compartment that can resist the spread of fire for 30 minutes or so. It seems in the Grenfall people were told to stay put, which for a building that old seems wrong, but even if it had been the correct strategy, the plastic cladding effectively breached the fireproof compartments and carried the fire straight through any protections. The people who tend to take care of fire systems and strategy in this type of building are box tickers - not experts.

Craven Cottage is not residential and as such (and maybe surprisingly) will be held to a higher standard and regimen of checks and testing. And the key thing is as a football club we will have comparatively large amounts of money set aside and full time H&S experts who know what they are talking about getting good people in to sort out the systems (I would imagine). And the biggest advantage - Craven Cottage is empty for 5 or 6 in 7 days, and then 3 months in the summer, meaning the systems can be updated and upgraded every year in a way that a residential building can't. Nowadays a football stadium, even one with wood, I would wager at 100:1 is far safer than a tower block fire wise. I would point to the Old Trafford fake bomb evacuation at the end of the season last year - it was textbook evacuation done well that got the people closest to danger out quickest and caused minimal panic throughout the 75000(?) people there. The place is stuffed full of trained people who know how to deal with these situations. In a block of flats it's just chaos, nobody really knows what they are doing or how to evacuate. In fact in the JH, the only thing where I think there may be a breach is that the PA system hasn't been working properly for a while, but I would imagine this will be fixed by next season.

The really scary thing? The standard for residential fire systems' installation is not technically legally binding on the installer. It is guidelines. And if the customer insists on variations from the guidelines, the installer can mark it as a variation and get the customer to sign it off. Not even that, there is nothing like gas safe for fire engineers, and no minimum level of training or qualification. A lot of the time small systems are installed by electricians who have bought a system from screwfix and read the manual - decent fire engineers cost more and so landlords particularly go for bargain basement to get a tick in the box. Fire engineers are like car mechanics - some are good, some are good and high price and some are cowboys. Someone can be taken to court after their work has caused death or injury, but there are very few cases of someone being prosecuted for putting in a system wrong without there having been a fire to find it out. And as the standards for the detectors and fire safety components are harmonised pan-european standards, I worry that Brexit will make this worse (perhaps).

[gang]

Perfectly safe. After Bradford all wooden stands had to pass stringent safety tests to get a license.
The Stevenage Road stand was closed for the first few home games in 85/86 while fireproofing & an expensive sprinkler system fitted

What I don't get is why they had to wait for a tragedy to happen to feel the need to implement safety measures
[/

Hindsight is easy.

[toshes mate]

Interesting stuff, abfg.   I partly agree with you about standards slipping even further post-Brexit, although the standards are really so low already I am not sure how much further they can drop.  Successive governments have had policies for deregulation of building standards for a long time (from Thatcher onwards) and now it seems to be costing lives. 

Interestingly the type of cladding used for Grenfell Tower is banned in the US.  What does that tell you about the whole refurbishment project?   

[nose]

Interesting stuff, abfg.   I partly agree with you about standards slipping even further post-Brexit, although the standards are really so low already I am not sure how much further they can drop.  Successive governments have had policies for deregulation of building standards for a long time (from Thatcher onwards) and now it seems to be costing lives. 

Interestingly the type of cladding used for Grenfell Tower is banned in the US.  What does that tell you about the whole refurbishment project?   

Very interesting from ABFG as usual!
However, the one piece of the jig saw that is not discussed is when residents or informed laymen of one sort or another draw attention to a hazard and it is ignored OR when a similar occurence occurs and recommendations issued and generally they are not implemented. If at least the owners are obliged to have a proper re-assement  of their buildings after an event with oublished findings then there would be a level of confidence restored or alternatively maybe an evacuation in an orderly fashion.

What do you think?

As it is there must be loads of resedential buildings genuinely at risk with valid Hand S/fire certificates just because the rules are inadequate.

In my business we are not allowed any material that supports flame, promotes combustion or gives off noxious fumes... I am always astounded buildings are so much more lax.

[EN1 FFC]

Was it Wisla Krakow that let flares off in the JH stand, and it looked as if the Stand was on fire as smoke bellowed out the top vents.

They should put sprinklers in the Putney away bit, so when away fans like the Liverpool lot let flares off they can turn them on and give them a good wash.

There's been a few burger van fires over the years.

[filham]

 I feel perfectly safe in the JH stand with all the enforced regulations in place and the number of escape routes available, particularly the access we have to the pitch.

We are taking many greater risks such as crossing the Fulham Palace road on foot on the way to the match.

[Carborundum]

Was it Wisla Krakow that let flares off in the JH stand, and it looked as if the Stand was on fire as smoke bellowed out the top vents

Indeed it was.  Seated two thirds of the way back in the Hammy End that night and for a while it looked very bad.  That was a crazy night.

[toshes mate]

However, the one piece of the jig saw that is not discussed is when residents or informed laymen of one sort or another draw attention to a hazard and it is ignored OR when a similar occurence occurs and recommendations issued and generally they are not implemented. If at least the owners are obliged to have a proper re-assement  of their buildings after an event with oublished findings then there would be a level of confidence restored or alternatively maybe an evacuation in an orderly fashion.

It would seem the gas main pipes in the lobbies and staircases were supposed to be heavily insulated and encased and residents had pointed them out as a serious hazard to the authorities long ago, stating them 'as being a serious risk contrary to the design specification' which, incredibly, RBK&C had already signed off as 'having been completed'.  They were a really serious hazard to firefighters when they burst and delayed the rescue attempts.

Another reported matter is the breaching of the 'fire trap' between the cladding and the walls which apparently can easily occur via a small pipe acting as an air pressure hose intensifying the fire.  Hence overflow pipes or heating vents simply turn the home into a huge fire risk because one professional isn't understanding what another professional has done.   

The more I read about this tragedy the more I understand just how crippled we have become by profit before people, and why we need to reverse direction and stop looking for cheap ways of doing anything serious like building and maintaining a home.         

[Burt]

In bradford there was massive health and safety violations in particular the rubbish under the stands themselves and in those days smoking was allowed and that is believed to have started that blaze. the roof was also wooden.  I keep hearing that the health and safety regularly visit our statdium and the JH was closed some years ago until it was sufficiently upgraded but hearing what we heard about the tragic events this week maybe the club should re=-appraise the stand that I sit in!

I'm sure that does go on, BUT , wood is highly flammable, there's no getting denying that or getting away from it, and the wooden stand and seats are directly above various cooking points, anybody want to disagree that a wooden stand is far from ideal in 2017 ?

There are NO cooking points in the JH stand, please get your facts right before posting, that is why the choice of food there is very limited, stick to your souless plastic stand full of plastic fans mostly and leave us alone in the JH, it is perfectly safe with a strict no smoking rule, only time I ever got worried was when those Polish prats let off a flare.

Hmmm one thing Mr Epsom to point out some factual inaccuracies but lets not kick off a war over which fans are better than others by virtue of where they happen to sit.

Cheers

Burt

[copthornemike]

Whatever the outcome of the Grenfell tragedy it does reinforce that a major problem for us all is complacency.
The Grenfell refurbishment contractors and designers may well have ticked all the boxes concerning fire safety at the time but patently that was not good enough. I believe that another tower block fire in London was caused by a thoughtless somebody throwing a cigarette end over a balcony which landed on some clothes which someone below has left out to dry overnight.

As regards the Cottage the OP has made a good and timely point. The Wisla Kracow Europa League game demonstrated that it only takes one idiot to wreck the best laid plans and that we should never become complacent that 'all is well.'

Does anyone here know 100% where the nearest fire extinguisher is to their seat at the Cottage for example?  I have to be honest I don't, and I suspect I am not alone, yet I have been going to matches for quite some years now!

Football grounds do I believe have to undergo frquent and rigorous safety reviews and certification with the Fire Service etc but after this week it is apparent we should not just rely on others.