Safe Standing something for Fulham?

[toshes mate]

It was always a working and middle class game, as westcliff white says, but the ratios have changed completely.  My first game watching Fulham probably had less than a fifth sitting, largely the middle class element in the JHS, but the Taylor Report in 1990 changed all that.  Of course the truth about the Hillsborough disaster didn't surface until much more recently and we should all make ourselves aware as to why that was the case.   

The arguments about all-seater stadia cannot be divorced from the massive turnaround brought about by the introduction of the PL, media money suddenly becoming the main income provider, and a forceful movement to detract from the working class elements who had initially been highlighted as a rogue element.  To my mind that was the worse thing that could ever happen to a 'national' game unless you truly wanted to distort its importance to communities and society in general.   On the one hand the increase in revenue was great but the cost to fans attending games was pushed too far away from the games original roots, effectively disenchanting a large element of supporters who were guilty of nothing except loving football.  I loathed the way football changed at that time, and it still leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

Safe standing has many models it can follow and the common element in them all is that they are carefully designed to be as safe as a seated area.  The best ones are easily convertible between seats and standing so that a stadium can adapt for different demands.  I would like to see a good mix of supporters at games, seasting and standing, which could hopefully develop into having football as a sport that is true to its roots and not just to the money. 

[nose]

Arsenal Supporters Trust did a nice detailed survey on this issue actually:
https://www.arsenaltrust.org/resources/documents/1493027114ast_safe_standing_survey_results.pdf

Overall findings however:
• More than 96% of fans are in favour of safe standing at the football grounds.
• Over three quarters (76%) of Arsenal fans surveyed said that they would want to utilise
safe standing if it was available.
• 85% of fans who said they would not use safe standing themselves were still in favour of
there being safe standing areas in the ground.
• Just over 2.5% of fans objected to any form of safe safe standing.

It then breaks down peoples preference by age group (interesting), and then sexuality & race (very bizzare)

It is interesting but in all seriousness it is also a dangerous thing to rely on a survey that we have no real knoweldge of who and how it was polled. I suspect, because it is the Arsenal FST and not a proper polling survey,  the group that responded were always likely to be in favour because that is the nature of the thing, people that respond are usually in favour of the change suggested.
Purely unscientific but I do know lots of football supporters, nearly everyone I know by and large prefers to sit and the majority of them feel safe standing should be an option for those that want it. I am against any standing because a) safety issues (not yet convinced safe is actually safe) and b)if you do stand then not being able to see is a major issue. At Huddersfield away, everyone, by and large stood the whole game and in front of me were big men, tall and wide. I had to stand in the gangway to see anything, I kept being moved by the stewards as one is not allowed to stand in the aisle.... but the standing had a mega negative impact and but for being on the end of the row I would have seen very little of the match, how can that be right?

[nose]

it seems to me safe standing, Ruiz and dempsey always draw a large reaction when mentioned.
Just saying.

[dhowells21]

Arsenal Supporters Trust did a nice detailed survey on this issue actually:
https://www.arsenaltrust.org/resources/documents/1493027114ast_safe_standing_survey_results.pdf

Overall findings however:
• More than 96% of fans are in favour of safe standing at the football grounds.
• Over three quarters (76%) of Arsenal fans surveyed said that they would want to utilise
safe standing if it was available.
• 85% of fans who said they would not use safe standing themselves were still in favour of
there being safe standing areas in the ground.
• Just over 2.5% of fans objected to any form of safe safe standing.

It then breaks down peoples preference by age group (interesting), and then sexuality & race (very bizzare)

It is interesting but in all seriousness it is also a dangerous thing to rely on a survey that we have no real knoweldge of who and how it was polled. I suspect, because it is the Arsenal FST and not a proper polling survey,  the group that responded were always likely to be in favour because that is the nature of the thing, people that respond are usually in favour of the change suggested.
Purely unscientific but I do know lots of football supporters, nearly everyone I know by and large prefers to sit and the majority of them feel safe standing should be an option for those that want it. I am against any standing because a) safety issues (not yet convinced safe is actually safe) and b)if you do stand then not being able to see is a major issue. At Huddersfield away, everyone, by and large stood the whole game and in front of me were big men, tall and wide. I had to stand in the gangway to see anything, I kept being moved by the stewards as one is not allowed to stand in the aisle.... but the standing had a mega negative impact and but for being on the end of the row I would have seen very little of the match, how can that be right?

After all the previous with terraces/standing I'm confident that they're definitely not going to risk anything. Plus, it is currently in use in Germany & Celtic, and there has been no issues (that I'm aware). 
Yeah, that definitely is one of the downsides with standing. But that's nothing new, whether it's at football, or a gig. Big people ruin things, its a fact of standing. Nothing you can really do about that, except for buy a seat rather than standing.
As for the survey, of course it's not perfect, but when is any survey. If the best pollsters/statisticians in the country can't accurately poll general elections, then what chance does a football club trust have. But, they did survey 7,000+ people, which is a very decent number, so whilst it shouldn't be used in isolation, it is a very good resource in getting the overall feedback on the subject.

[HillingdonFFC]

Arsenal Supporters Trust did a nice detailed survey on this issue actually:
https://www.arsenaltrust.org/resources/documents/1493027114ast_safe_standing_survey_results.pdf

Overall findings however:
• More than 96% of fans are in favour of safe standing at the football grounds.
• Over three quarters (76%) of Arsenal fans surveyed said that they would want to utilise
safe standing if it was available.
• 85% of fans who said they would not use safe standing themselves were still in favour of
there being safe standing areas in the ground.
• Just over 2.5% of fans objected to any form of safe safe standing.

It then breaks down peoples preference by age group (interesting), and then sexuality & race (very bizzare)

It is interesting but in all seriousness it is also a dangerous thing to rely on a survey that we have no real knoweldge of who and how it was polled. I suspect, because it is the Arsenal FST and not a proper polling survey,  the group that responded were always likely to be in favour because that is the nature of the thing, people that respond are usually in favour of the change suggested.
Purely unscientific but I do know lots of football supporters, nearly everyone I know by and large prefers to sit and the majority of them feel safe standing should be an option for those that want it. I am against any standing because a) safety issues (not yet convinced safe is actually safe) and b)if you do stand then not being able to see is a major issue. At Huddersfield away, everyone, by and large stood the whole game and in front of me were big men, tall and wide. I had to stand in the gangway to see anything, I kept being moved by the stewards as one is not allowed to stand in the aisle.... but the standing had a mega negative impact and but for being on the end of the row I would have seen very little of the match, how can that be right?

Strange because nearly every fan I know & trust me I know a lot wants safe standing back. Its just not Arsenal fans, loads of surveys over the years & the overwhelming majority want it.

[westcliff white]

Arsenal Supporters Trust did a nice detailed survey on this issue actually:
https://www.arsenaltrust.org/resources/documents/1493027114ast_safe_standing_survey_results.pdf

Overall findings however:
• More than 96% of fans are in favour of safe standing at the football grounds.
• Over three quarters (76%) of Arsenal fans surveyed said that they would want to utilise
safe standing if it was available.
• 85% of fans who said they would not use safe standing themselves were still in favour of
there being safe standing areas in the ground.
• Just over 2.5% of fans objected to any form of safe safe standing.

It then breaks down peoples preference by age group (interesting), and then sexuality & race (very bizzare)

It is interesting but in all seriousness it is also a dangerous thing to rely on a survey that we have no real knoweldge of who and how it was polled. I suspect, because it is the Arsenal FST and not a proper polling survey,  the group that responded were always likely to be in favour because that is the nature of the thing, people that respond are usually in favour of the change suggested.
Purely unscientific but I do know lots of football supporters, nearly everyone I know by and large prefers to sit and the majority of them feel safe standing should be an option for those that want it. I am against any standing because a) safety issues (not yet convinced safe is actually safe) and b)if you do stand then not being able to see is a major issue. At Huddersfield away, everyone, by and large stood the whole game and in front of me were big men, tall and wide. I had to stand in the gangway to see anything, I kept being moved by the stewards as one is not allowed to stand in the aisle.... but the standing had a mega negative impact and but for being on the end of the row I would have seen very little of the match, how can that be right?

Strange because nearly every fan I know & trust me I know a lot wants safe standing back. Its just not Arsenal fans, loads of surveys over the years & the overwhelming majority want it.

I am sure some will say the other side though Hillingdon. No one I go to any game with wants to stand, but that doesnt mean toey dont want "safe standing", just means they have a preference. I do know some that would loather to see the return of any form of standing but also know people that would like to stand.

Last report i saw was pretty even on the situation think it was 53/47 in percent terms, for me I think it has to be viable financially for clubs to do so, as smaller clibs could lose out in a big way if they have converted to an all seater stadium. Leagues one and two do not need ot have them, the top two divisiosn do. Teams in those divisions will need to see if they can get the rules changed etc to allow them to have any. I can see it cmoming in though.

[toshes mate]

It is interesting ....

Nearly eight thousand responded to the survey, nose, a pretty good cross section I'd say.

[westcliff white]

It is interesting ....

Nearly eight thousand responded to the survey, nose, a pretty good cross section I'd say.

you only need a 1,000 to get an opinion poll published i believe. so agree TM seems a half decent cross section

[HillingdonFFC]

Arsenal Supporters Trust did a nice detailed survey on this issue actually:
https://www.arsenaltrust.org/resources/documents/1493027114ast_safe_standing_survey_results.pdf

Overall findings however:
• More than 96% of fans are in favour of safe standing at the football grounds.
• Over three quarters (76%) of Arsenal fans surveyed said that they would want to utilise
safe standing if it was available.
• 85% of fans who said they would not use safe standing themselves were still in favour of
there being safe standing areas in the ground.
• Just over 2.5% of fans objected to any form of safe safe standing.

It then breaks down peoples preference by age group (interesting), and then sexuality & race (very bizzare)

It is interesting but in all seriousness it is also a dangerous thing to rely on a survey that we have no real knoweldge of who and how it was polled. I suspect, because it is the Arsenal FST and not a proper polling survey,  the group that responded were always likely to be in favour because that is the nature of the thing, people that respond are usually in favour of the change suggested.
Purely unscientific but I do know lots of football supporters, nearly everyone I know by and large prefers to sit and the majority of them feel safe standing should be an option for those that want it. I am against any standing because a) safety issues (not yet convinced safe is actually safe) and b)if you do stand then not being able to see is a major issue. At Huddersfield away, everyone, by and large stood the whole game and in front of me were big men, tall and wide. I had to stand in the gangway to see anything, I kept being moved by the stewards as one is not allowed to stand in the aisle.... but the standing had a mega negative impact and but for being on the end of the row I would have seen very little of the match, how can that be right?

Strange because nearly every fan I know & trust me I know a lot wants safe standing back. Its just not Arsenal fans, loads of surveys over the years & the overwhelming majority want it.

I am sure some will say the other side though Hillingdon. No one I go to any game with wants to stand, but that doesnt mean toey dont want "safe standing", just means they have a preference. I do know some that would loather to see the return of any form of standing but also know people that would like to stand.

Last report i saw was pretty even on the situation think it was 53/47 in percent terms, for me I think it has to be viable financially for clubs to do so, as smaller clibs could lose out in a big way if they have converted to an all seater stadium. Leagues one and two do not need ot have them, the top two divisiosn do. Teams in those divisions will need to see if they can get the rules changed etc to allow them to have any. I can see it cmoming in though.

Completely appreciate what you're saying, its not for everyone.
Interested to see where you got the 57%-43 %in favour of from?. I've been taking an interest in this for a few years now & have followed polls & have taken part in social media.
Its massively higher, some clubs have had as many as 95% of their fans wanting it. Theres one particular one where around 40,000 people have voted & its something like 85% in favour.
You only have to go to grounds to see, huge swathes of Old Trafford, Anfield, WHL & various others have pretty much stood anyway. Most clubs visting the Cottage ,especially those with large travelling support stand all the way through.
I think the wheels are in motion & this will happen, no-ones advocating a return to the cram as many in as you can days but there is desire for safe standing.

[nose]

It is interesting ....

Nearly eight thousand responded to the survey, nose, a pretty good cross section I'd say.

you only need a 1,000 to get an opinion poll published i believe. so agree TM seems a half decent cross section

well 8,000 is a brilliant response but that is not the point on this occasion.
It is likely it is not a cross section, it is usually the case that these type of surveys will attract response that are in favour of the change. That is why they can tend to mislead. It cannot be considered a fair cross section unless it can be guaranteed the people responding are picked from a cross section.

I do not know how the poll was conducted but I think the idea that 76% of people actually prefer to stand runs massively counter intuitively as a result. I accept the majority probably proabably do think safe standing is a good idea (I happen not too but that is my opinion) but that most would prefer to sit. As I said before my research is not scientific, just based on asking people their opinion.

[westcliff white]

Arsenal Supporters Trust did a nice detailed survey on this issue actually:
https://www.arsenaltrust.org/resources/documents/1493027114ast_safe_standing_survey_results.pdf

Overall findings however:
• More than 96% of fans are in favour of safe standing at the football grounds.
• Over three quarters (76%) of Arsenal fans surveyed said that they would want to utilise
safe standing if it was available.
• 85% of fans who said they would not use safe standing themselves were still in favour of
there being safe standing areas in the ground.
• Just over 2.5% of fans objected to any form of safe safe standing.

It then breaks down peoples preference by age group (interesting), and then sexuality & race (very bizzare)

It is interesting but in all seriousness it is also a dangerous thing to rely on a survey that we have no real knoweldge of who and how it was polled. I suspect, because it is the Arsenal FST and not a proper polling survey,  the group that responded were always likely to be in favour because that is the nature of the thing, people that respond are usually in favour of the change suggested.
Purely unscientific but I do know lots of football supporters, nearly everyone I know by and large prefers to sit and the majority of them feel safe standing should be an option for those that want it. I am against any standing because a) safety issues (not yet convinced safe is actually safe) and b)if you do stand then not being able to see is a major issue. At Huddersfield away, everyone, by and large stood the whole game and in front of me were big men, tall and wide. I had to stand in the gangway to see anything, I kept being moved by the stewards as one is not allowed to stand in the aisle.... but the standing had a mega negative impact and but for being on the end of the row I would have seen very little of the match, how can that be right?

Strange because nearly every fan I know & trust me I know a lot wants safe standing back. Its just not Arsenal fans, loads of surveys over the years & the overwhelming majority want it.

I am sure some will say the other side though Hillingdon. No one I go to any game with wants to stand, but that doesnt mean toey dont want "safe standing", just means they have a preference. I do know some that would loather to see the return of any form of standing but also know people that would like to stand.

Last report i saw was pretty even on the situation think it was 53/47 in percent terms, for me I think it has to be viable financially for clubs to do so, as smaller clibs could lose out in a big way if they have converted to an all seater stadium. Leagues one and two do not need ot have them, the top two divisiosn do. Teams in those divisions will need to see if they can get the rules changed etc to allow them to have any. I can see it cmoming in though.

Completely appreciate what you're saying, its not for everyone.
Interested to see where you got the 57%-43 %in favour of from?. I've been taking an interest in this for a few years now & have followed polls & have taken part in social media.
Its massively higher, some clubs have had as many as 95% of their fans wanting it. Theres one particular one where around 40,000 people have voted & its something like 85% in favour.
You only have to go to grounds to see, huge swathes of Old Trafford, Anfield, WHL & various others have pretty much stood anyway. Most clubs visting the Cottage ,especially those with large travelling support stand all the way through.
I think the wheels are in motion & this will happen, no-ones advocating a return to the cram as many in as you can days but there is desire for safe standing.

I cant remember where I read it was last year some time, it was though just an opinion poll take over several weekends at a multitude of grounds.

Will see if I can dig it out.