Our defence, Seri and Anguissa.

[FulhamStu]

I have just watched the 90 mins on Fulham tv and it confirmed what I thought.

1.  Those berating Seri and particularly that ridiculous thread having a go at Frank I have a real issue with.  Now I think I know a bit about football, played semi pro for Walton and Maindenhead and have been watching Fulham for well over 50 years.   To blame those 2 or even just Frank was just way off understanding what the problem is.  Fact is, they were both pretty good.  The problem was they were asked to do far too much.   Seri must have covered more yards in that match that a midfielder would normally do over 2 games.  Frank is being critised for giving the ball away when his passing accuracy and ball retention was excellent.

The fact is, you can't possibly win games like last Sunday with just 2 midfield players, it's madness.  When Frank came off we were totally overrun in midfield and it was even worse when StefJo came on alongside KMac and Seri, although I agree the game was over and heads were down by then.

2.  Now, back to the real problem.  Our ability to defend.  Firstly with just 2 midfield players your defence will immediately be under pressure.  5 at the back is fine, but Crystie was never at the back, he did not track back and our right side was wide open.  Add to that Arsenal's forwards got one on one with our central defenders all the time, and the 3 were never in control.  Arsenal's forwards were able to spin our central defender too easily.  We did not have enough grit, were not close enough and played a far too higher line, esp v Arsenal's very fast forwards.   If all that was not bad enough, Slav then decided to take off Ream and expose the defence even more.  madness.

For the first 60 minutes we did play some very good football,  we do have good players and when we attack we are a threat.  That said, we should be with 5 forwards on the pitch !!  We just need much better balance, you have to do more defensively.  Frank and Seri were both box to box, how the hell are they suppose to protect a pretty weak back 3 v the quality Arsenal process.  It was a really good game for 60 minutes dispite all I have said however Slavs substitutions were suicidal and this made a tough day at the office impossible.

[JoelH5]

Exactly what I think. We can't afford to be so attacking. We need to get a little more defensive. I'm not saying become defensive... just have a bit more emphasis on defence.

[Southcoastffc]

Interesting post. So the loss was all down to Slav's tactics?

[The Old Count]

Interesting post. So the loss was all down to Slav's tactics?

Arsenal had something to do with it as well. However, there's no escaping the fact that Slav's tactics have been uninspiring in a number of matches so far.

[Denver Fulham]

Christie's awfulness unraveled a lot of what we were doing. We could have been in decent defensive position numerous times except Odoi had to cover for Christie and that created imbalances inside or someone had to desperately leave their man to track back and pick up someone else.

I also think pressing with a front line of Vietto, Mitro and Schurrle is stupid. Even though our goal came off a defensive turnover, I think it's a poor gambit over 90 minutes with our personnel. They have no chance to track back and pitch in. We were bypassed and compromised numerous times by knockdowns of long balls that fell to an unmarked Arsenal midfielder because Seri and Anguissa had too much space to cover by themselves (with Sess helping on one wing).

[Andyb]

Did notice odoi shouting at Christie several times during the game

[@jolslover]

Good post mate. I live in Maidenhead so interesting to hear you used to play for Maidenhead. Not that I think it makes your opinion more valid but yh good analysis and I agree.

[filham]

Someone needs to talk to Jocanovic and Jocanovic needs to listen.

[FulhamStu]

Interesting post. So the loss was all down to Slav's tactics?

No, it's always a combination of things including Arsenal's finishing which was top drawer v ours which was I would say average.  AK had a good chance as did Mitro 2nd half and first half Vietto could have done better. Our goal was excellent, started by Frank, top play by Vietto and great finish from Shurlle.   I guess I am saying Slavs tactics of attacking at all costs are in my view not balanced enough.  You have to defend first, then attack, not the other way round.

I will repeat what I have said since day 1, which is it will take Slav until Xmas to get this team running on full steam, I would just like him to be more mindful of our defensive needs.   

My OP was also pointing out that Seri and Frank are both excellent signings and not then waist of money some people have been making out.  Without those 2 we would be in deep trouble.

[Statto]

I was looking at some stats tonight

We are still 7th in the passes rankings this season.

The top 6 in those rankings are naturally Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea, Spurs, Man Utd and Arsenal. Then Fulham 7th.

I also had a look at the the last few years' full season rankings and no club ranking that high for passes has been relegated in the last few years. In fact only once has a club ranking that high even finished in the bottom 8 of the actual table in the last few years (Southampton in 17th last year).

Obviously there are outliers. Leicester won the league in 15/16 despite ranking 18th for passes. Since then Burnley and West Brom have both finished in the top half despite being crap at passing.

But generally being a good passing side bodes very well, so whilst I agree major improvement is required at the back, for the time being IMO we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and completely abandon the Jokanovic tactics that got us promoted

[Southcoastffc]

Interesting post. So the loss was all down to Slav's tactics?

No, it's always a combination of things including Arsenal's finishing which was top drawer v ours which was I would say average.  AK had a good chance as did Mitro 2nd half and first half Vietto could have done better. Our goal was excellent, started by Frank, top play by Vietto and great finish from Shurlle.   I guess I am saying Slavs tactics of attacking at all costs are in my view not balanced enough.  You have to defend first, then attack, not the other way round.

I will repeat what I have said since day 1, which is it will take Slav until Xmas to get this team running on full steam, I would just like him to be more mindful of our defensive needs.   

My OP was also pointing out that Seri and Frank are both excellent signings and not then waist of money some people have been making out.  Without those 2 we would be in deep trouble.

Thanks again for the post.  I should say that I wasn't having a pop at you, nor Slavisa. I wasn't at the game so I was really asking if we lost largely because we were set up inapppropriately - which would of course normally be the coach's responsibility.

[toshes mate]

I will repeat what I have said since day 1, which is it will take Slav until Xmas to get this team running on full steam, I would just like him to be more mindful of our defensive needs.   

I have tried not to rubbish anyone because it is the overall team performance that wins games and not just the contributions of one or more individuals.  I too believe SJ has a mammoth task getting this side to fit together in the short term because none of the signings were good fits compared to what we had lost from last season from the start.  Christie is not a Fredericks by any stretch of the imagination and with Bryan injured it seems we have little to offer on the left either.  The central defence is unsettled and nobody (apart from Odoi who just gets on with the job) has established themselves in the two central defensive partnership positions.  Seri and Anguissa have not established a similar partnership in midfield in the manner required which is both covering attack and covering defence as a pairing, as in one goes and the other stays.  Part of that is the lack of co-ordination with the wide midfield who at times are not taking up clever positions to develop a move or change focus because the wing backs are not driving the game as they did last season.

I expect more from players costing big money than I have seen so far.  That's not to say they are rubbish and money badly spent as much as it is to say a) we had a formation thyat worked; b) we lost players who made it work and c) why didn't we buy players who were actually fit for the formation that worked last season in the Championship and would work in the PL had we bought 'best fit' replacements for crucial positions and players like Seri and Anguissa to strengthen out midfield.  So far our results have been catastrophic because we are losing and losing heavily i.e. no part of the team is giving what is required of it.

[nose returns]

Interesting post. So the loss was all down to Slav's tactics?

at 2 1 we were in it and slav pulled a masterstroke with the way we were playing.
The two subs killed us and made us far worse, so yes he was very much the biggest problem on the day.
Check what i have said before, I love slava and he will get it right but on sunday, it was not his finest, time to move on and learn.

[davew]

I was looking at some stats tonight

We are still 7th in the passes rankings this season.

The top 6 in those rankings are naturally Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea, Spurs, Man Utd and Arsenal. Then Fulham 7th.

I also had a look at the the last few years' full season rankings and no club ranking that high for passes has been relegated in the last few years. In fact only once has a club ranking that high even finished in the bottom 8 of the actual table in the last few years (Southampton in 17th last year).

Obviously there are outliers. Leicester won the league in 15/16 despite ranking 18th for passes. Since then Burnley and West Brom have both finished in the top half despite being crap at passing.

But generally being a good passing side bodes very well, so whilst I agree major improvement is required at the back, for the time being IMO we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and completely abandon the Jokanovic tactics that got us promoted

That is very reassuring Statto (lol), so we have nothing to worry about and perhaps continue with our present formation and policy of pass and attack at all costs and of course no need to worry about defending which is something we are incapable of doing anyway!

[Twig]

Interesting post. So the loss was all down to Slav's tactics?

at 2 1 we were in it and slav pulled a masterstroke with the way we were playing.
The two subs killed us and made us far worse, so yes he was very much the biggest problem on the day.
Check what i have said before, I love slava and he will get it right but on sunday, it was not his finest, time to move on and learn.

I don't often feel SJ deserves a lot of criticism but on this occasion the substitutions and change of shape failed spectacularly  I think that odds are we would have lost anyway but I agree we were at least in it. Oh well at least SJ will have learnt some things from the mauling.

[MikeW]

Some very good and well thought thro posts on here - as you expect from FOF!

Just another to throw in the pot.  I know it's only two games but I think Tim has been culpable for about 4 goals since his come back.  I was at Everton and purposely watched him.  I think the pace of the Prem might be his undoing.  I love him to bits but if we get Mawson playing (to his full potential) alongside him, may take the one-on-one marking pressure off?  Just a thought. MW

[HV71]

Interesting post. So the loss was all down to Slav's tactics?

at 2 1 we were in it and slav pulled a masterstroke with the way we were playing.
The two subs killed us and made us far worse, so yes he was very much the biggest problem on the day.
Check what i have said before, I love slava and he will get it right but on sunday, it was not his finest, time to move on and learn.

I don't often feel SJ deserves a lot of criticism but on this occasion the substitutions and change of shape failed spectacularly  I think that odds are we would have lost anyway but I agree we were at least in it. Oh well at least SJ will have learnt some things from the mauling.

I think you are right Twig - and hopefully Slav will have learnt from Sunday. I also think it is important to remember that Slav has always said that with the style he wants to play that the players will invariably make mistakes and that they should be brave as he accepts that. I think this also applies to himself . He made the changes he did , and whatever we think of them , he was trying to get us back into the game and possibly go on to win it. Whilst we may see his tactics as foolhardy they were brave and hopefully he will learn from this. I admire someone who tries to go for it - had it been Rafa he would have parked the bus 2nd half in an attempt to limit the damage. I still think that Arsenal would have proved too strong for us - but the battering was very , very painful  - that is undeniable

[colinwhite]

I agree with your basic premise Stu ,that playing with 2 in midfield is the root of our defensive problem. Ok we have had injuries to players ,been forced to change personel,system and shape,but the real problem is staring us all striaght in the face. We cant play with 3 forwards and didnt last season either. i am sure Slavisa is acutely aware that either schurrle or Vietta or both has to be sacrificed in order to make us more solid. Sessignon is a two -way player who has to play to the left of Mitro and we still havent resolved the issue of the right hand side . Ayete played there more times than most and was the nearest thing we had to a player who could both get forward and cover back in that position.Fredericks speed and mobillity went a long way ,(at that level it has to be emphasised) to walipaper over how flawed we were on that side.
With tc back alongside seri we could see Kmac starting more( and his role at the lower level last year was vital). That still leaves for me, the big question . Who is going to play on that right hand side in front of our right back fosu Mensah,when fit ?

[Woolly Mammoth]

The next match is the most important.
Whether we agree with Joks tactics or not.
Slavisa must think long and hard about how he will set his stall out v Cardiff.
Colin and his Merry men will have their own game plan, and it may not be very pretty.
That does not bother me at all.
However, one thing is most definite, if Jok plans to outpass and outclass Cardiff, as he succeeded in doing last year in the corresponding Fixture.
On this occasion that may not be enough.
We are going to need to out play, out fight and outrun them also, if we want to come away with another victory.
They haven't won yet, and I know what everyone is thinking, will we oblige them.
For once I can categorically say, no they will not score more goals than us.
Blimey that's done it, but that's exactly what William of Normandy ( William The Conquerer ) said to his troops in 1066, on the eve of the Battle of Hastings.
When he burnt all his ships and told his army there is no way back, you have to win the day.