Its not rocket science.

[colinwhite]

Perhaps getting well and truely stuffed by Arsenal on saturday was exactly what we needed. I say well and truely ,but actually the way we played made it very easy for them ,despite us having a decent share of the game in some aspects, given the quality of the type of players they have. And that is really the key point.
If you play against a side where individually you are better than them ,the plan is  often to isolate them in one-on-one situations ,where better players usually win their individual duels. However one of the fascinations of football as a sport is that the collective can be more important than the individual.
A golden rule of defending is  to be numerically superior when possible. Its a given that when you take a corner the team will have at least 2 players back to cover one attacker, for example.
Defending from the front is a phrase often thrown into the discussion  suggesting that all attcking players should get behind the ball when we dont have  possession (like Roys teams of a few years ago ) ,but this only works if you have a low defensive line and a point of contact (where on the pitch  to start pressing the ball).
These days most teams try to press high to win the ball back in the opponents half and in quickly transitioning into attack create goal chances before the opposition ha s a chance to reorganise. We did this successfully against Arsenal with Schurles goal coming from Monreals error after high -press from us resulting in the turnover. The problem is that Seri also tried to press-high (sprinting to just outside their box from the half way Line) for Arsenals first goal.When we didnt win the ball back we were now caught  with 3 defenders against 4 attackers ,which in turn meant Ream ultimately got caught in a poor position resulting in their first goal.
Odoi tries  unsuccessfully to press high for their second and Ream is again left one on one with Lacazette. For Arsenals third goal ,we again attempt to press high and get caught 4 against 2 before Ramsey scores his `wonder` goal . Sour grapes I know but I thought they were really lucky with this goal,and if we had had enough players in defense there is no way they would have scored this goal.

The point im making  is that we are not as good against Arsenal player for player,but allow them to isolate us in one-on ones in our own box for two of the goals and allow them time upon number to attack us with numerical superiority.

I think the main issue to resolve is not to do with formation or even which players that start matches . Its about finding a collective that works defensively, not allowing us to be exposed in too many one on ones (especially against the top teams ),and deciding what is a realistic way for us to exploit  our pressurising  of other teams when we are not in possession. The key to being more solid lies here ,not in systems or individuels. Of course having three out and out forwards  it is not going to work if we want to stop leaking goals ,and only playing with 2 midfielders is also a big issue ,but both of these issues are tied in to how approach pressuring the ball when out of possession . On saturday the pressure we applied did give rewards when successful , but also had catastrophic consequenses when it didnt work . The score 5-1  scoreline just about represents the extent to which our aggressive pressuring of the ball against Arsenal was unsuccessful. When we played the better teams in this league we have to start making sure that we are not going to be outnumbered and if this means being more defensive in our ball pressing and lower with our back line then so be it . Everything else as we and Slavisa  have clearly seen ,is suicide.
When players  start to return from injury and start to gel it may help ,but the issue of how we defend collectively will remain the key issue, in my opinion. This is the real challenge for our coaches to resolve and it can be done without changing our style.

[SuffolkWhite]

Very interesting reading and a reasond thought process. Have said a few times I think it is gelling of players but also of working the tactics out. In Joka I trust and there will be failures from some players but we have to give them a chance. Baird,Reeeeeam to name two who made the grade.

[hovewhite]

We have to get to a piont of a fully fit supply of the backline players,that's match fit before we see an improvement then we have to have a settled cohesive defensive unit also against the top 6 2 shielding midfield in my view.
The next run of 4 games we need minimum 5 pionts at very least.

[filham]

A good post Collinwhite, just hope Jocanovic will take on board what you are saying.

[Statto]

Personally i think the lesson from Arsenal is even simpler than that. And it's one most of us knew 6 months ago.

Bettinelli, Odoi, Christie and Ream are just not good enough at this level.

Back 5 for me next game would be

Rico
Chambers-Mawson-MLM-Sessegnon

[colinwhite]

we keep leaving our back-line (whether it be 3,4 or 5 players) exposed the way we did against the gunners then we could have any defenders you care to name there and it wouldnt make any difference !

[Southcoastffc]

Personally i think the lesson from Arsenal is even simpler than that. And it's one most of us knew 6 months ago.

Bettinelli, Odoi, Christie and Ream are just not good enough at this level.

Back 5 for me next game would be

Rico
Chambers-Mawson-MLM-Sessegnon

I'm glad that you don't choose the team!

[Statto]

Personally i think the lesson from Arsenal is even simpler than that. And it's one most of us knew 6 months ago.

Bettinelli, Odoi, Christie and Ream are just not good enough at this level.

Back 5 for me next game would be

Rico
Chambers-Mawson-MLM-Sessegnon

I'm glad that you don't choose the team!

Is it even contentious? We are talking about an England International, two-time Europa League Cup winner and £15m player. Would be very Magath-esque to keep those 3 on the bench and keep shipping 3 goals every week.

[toshes mate]

Those who favour possession in football argue that if you don't concede possession then your opponent cannot score (own goals excepting).  Those who argue against this say that in a mixed game where risks and chances are taken, rather than holding the ball with sideways and backwards movement, means a chance long ball into your opponents half may result in an effective counter, a platform to win possession in your opponent's danger areas, with a defence that may be stretched.  To do this risk taking effectively the forwards must do a fair share of pressing, tackling, blocking and intercepting, skills that can be taught if they do not readily have them.  That is also true of the possession game since you must get the ball back before your opponents score.

In the first half against Arsenal there were opportunities at both ends and I thought, by the break, Fulham were slightly the better team and certainly deserved to be level.  What we didn't do at half time was to cover the cracks on our right flank which had been exploited by Arsenal on a number of occasions in the first half including their goal.  Not being privy to what was said and done at half time I have no way of understanding why we didn't better protect that flank because it lead to us conceding the match, and that is certainly not rocket science.

[colinwhite]

we also exposed ourself by unsucessfully pressing high alot more than they did. Agree that we were at least as good as them in the first half but they got gifted numeral supremecy by us on an number of occasions whilst giving us nothing free during the entire half. aArecipie for disaster given that their players are of superior quality to ours  and that isnt rocket science!!!

[Snibbo]

Bryan at left back for me. Sess looked good at wing back last week, and has not looked great in my opinion at left back.

MLM has done well generally at central defence (one or two bloopers aside but that applies to everyone, even Mitro)

Fosu Mensa at RB if fit but I think Christie is ok there when his instructions are not to bomb on too much.

Leaves the other central position - by reputation Mawson should come good, otherwise Ream.

GK - still don't know if we have a clearly superior keeper.

[toshes mate]

I watched part of Ireland v Denmark game last night.  It was a very boring first half and I didn't bother with it after half time.  Christie had an interesting role which was ostensibly midfield right tucked in from the flank, and he was no better or worse than anyone else in the Irish team.  Was rather interested in his long throws from both flanks which seemed to have lots of height but, perhaps, lacked pace and accuracy.  The game was scrappy and the Irish team played a largely long ball game rather ineffectively; they never looked like scoring save for an early scare for Denmark when they stopped playing because an Irish player was down injured.  I was left with the thought that perhaps Christie is of more utility as a footballer than we may believe from what see at Fulham but finding his most potent use may be a question of the formation he is in, the instructions he receives, his ability to conform to those instructions and the quality of the support around him. 

[@jolslover]

I think our keepers as shot stoppers are pretty even. But what Fabri and Rico bring that Bettinelli doesn't is that experience at Champs league level as well as technical skills. Fabri and Rico are upgrades in distribution and composure, Which given the way we play is an often overlooked bonus for a keeper. Fabri is also much quicker off his line but I do worry about his height. Based on reputation alone I think Rico should be given the start.