Our defence

[Merch]

Don't post here much.....but

Wish people would stop being so negative about our defence. Last season was the premiership. Now it's the championship. 14 months ago we thought we had the best DC in the league in Ream and also the 2 best right backs, one of which was Christie. Mawson was in the England squad pre injury and Bryan has been a very solid championship player for years. MLM is not suddenly a bad player at this level and Odoi is solid in any position across the back.

People suggest Ayala (another championship defender) and we have been linked with a Chelsea youngster on loan the same guy who went down with Ipswich. Let's give our players a chance the same players who we cheered and adored only 14 months ago.

[hovewhite]

Merch welcome,I agree with your post 100% most people on this board believe the opposite but I've never been a follower,arse licker and enough said.but welcome anyway to the board.

[One Martin Thomas]

Is that our Rico starting for Sevilla against Liverpool ?

[..FOF..]

Nope:) 14 16 18 months ago I was still saying that;

* Odoi was inconsistent,

* the defence needed to have better players to challenge them for a starting place and

* the attacking at that time was saving us, sometimes scoring a winner or getting a draw after being a few goals down

[The Rational Fan]

If "Betts, Christie, Mawson, Ream and Bryan" get injured which is very unlikely they are all injured, then our defense is "Rodak, Fossey, Odoi, MLM and S.Sess" with "Norman, Cisse, Djola and Edun" on the bench.

If "Mitro" get injured which is most probable to happen at some point, then its "Fonte, Kamara or Atiye" as our centre forward with the others on the bench.

[fulhamben]

If "Betts, Christie, Mawson, Ream and Bryan" get injured which is very unlikely they are all injured, then our defense is "Rodak, Fossey, Odoi, MLM and S.Sess" with "Norman, Cisse, Djola and Edun" on the bench.

If "Mitro" get injured which is most probable to happen at some point, then its "Fonte, Kamara or Atiye" as our centre forward with the others on the bench.

that's pretty decent back up, what other team in this league can boast that? Oh and add martial as another striker option as he Is quite prolific for the youth teams

[filham]

One big factor is that our two fullbacks fall short in comparison with the full backs we were last promoted with, both in defence and attack.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Our defensive problems are not just down to the quality of individual players.

Desirable improvements would be that:
    - our goalkeepers were taught to better command their box and encouraged to be more assertive in organising our defence
    - the centre backs work as a pair like Hangeland and Hughes
    - someone in the defence acts like a captain of the defence and is more vocal
    - in some situations playing out from the back is the wrong choice and the ball needs to go into row Z or upfield while the defence gets reorganised
    - the midfielders and forwards make themselves more available when we are trying to play out from the back
    - it is very useful to have a designated defensive midfielder like Etuhu or Dembele or Chambers (or, for us last season in the PL it should have been two DMs). Will that be Anguissa with Macdonald as backup?
    - the wide midfielders and the full-backs need to also work as a pair as with the cover provided by Duff and Davies or even Ayite and Aluko.

These techniques can be taught on the training field as demonstrated by Sir Roy and even Pulis. A good portion of defensive success is down to organisation rather than individual skills.

[Andy S]

Yes our Full backs are not as supposedly as good as the last time we were in the championship but our wingers are better. You cannot always compare one for one in football. Last time it eventually worked and hopefully it will again. The thing with football is forever changing.this season already looks exciting. Bring it on

[LittleErn]

No doubt things will look better at Championship level, but I still feel that our right sided defence is a weakness. Hopefully Sess will improve with more experience, but we do need a right sided central defender. Even in the Brighton match the defence seemed to fall away on that side leaving too much room and time for the opposition. Of course, I speak only from watching the highlights which might not be a fair representation.

[SuffolkWhite]

Lets hope Mawson has a better season with injuries as he will be more consistant and he will command the defence imo. Almost like a new signing realy. But that might be said of a few also, gelling is everything.

[The Rock]

14 months ago most thought our signings lacked finding proper defensive focus/quality as someone rekindeled that thread from last summer a few days ago.

Forget about depth; it's "quality not quantity". 12 mediocre defenders does not equal 4 good ones.

I do think just a RB and CB should do the trick, 2 signings though as long as they walk into the starting 11.

[The Rational Fan]

14 months ago most thought our signings lacked finding proper defensive focus/quality as someone rekindeled that thread from last summer a few days ago.

Forget about depth; it's "quality not quantity". 12 mediocre defenders does not equal 4 good ones.

I do think just a RB and CB should do the trick, 2 signings though as long as they walk into the starting 11.

Our depth matters enormously maybe more than quality, we were virtually undefeated the entire 17/18 season except for injuries (particularly to Cairney, Ream, McDonald and Wingers). The three best Midfielders in the division is not enough to get you promoted if you drop points most games that one is not available or returning from injury.

In 17/18, with Cairney and McDonald playing (not including when they had a first game back starting): Played 29, Wins 21, Draws 4 and Losses 4; but without both Cairney and McDonald starting (and neither first game back starting): Played 20, Wins 6, Draws 9 and Losses 5. That's the danger of second team players, even though we had Norwood.

Even the three losses with Cainrey and McDonald, against Bristol we had injuries to Piazon and Ojo, plus a red card to Kamara; against Sunderland we had injuries to Kebano, Atiye and Piazon. So, we really only lost the last game to Birmingham and Debry in the playoff with a full strength team all 17/18 season, which itself could be put down to a lack of depth and the squad getting tired towards the end of the season (like Leeds).

While no team can expect to beat teams like Wolves or Cardiff with injuries to their best players; but we messed up dropping 12 points against bottom five teams Sunderland, Burton, Reading and Bolton twice. In the first half of the 17/18 season, against the bottom five teams we got 5 out of 15, without Cainrey we should have enough depth that be are able to do better than that. When Cairney is unavailable this season, I think we will really miss Seri. Hopefully, TK will add homegrown depth on deadline day.

[TC's Sporran]

14 months ago most thought our signings lacked finding proper defensive focus/quality as someone rekindeled that thread from last summer a few days ago.

Forget about depth; it's "quality not quantity". 12 mediocre defenders does not equal 4 good ones.

I do think just a RB and CB should do the trick, 2 signings though as long as they walk into the starting 11.

Our depth matters enormously maybe more than quality, we were virtually undefeated the entire 17/18 season except for injuries (particularly to Cairney, Ream, McDonald and Wingers). The three best Midfielders in the division is not enough to get you promoted if you drop points most games that one is not available or returning from injury.

In 17/18, with Cairney and McDonald playing (not including when they had a first game back starting): Played 29, Wins 21, Draws 4 and Losses 4; but without both Cairney and McDonald starting (and neither first game back starting): Played 20, Wins 6, Draws 9 and Losses 5. That's the danger of second team players, even though we had Norwood.

Even the three losses with Cainrey and McDonald, against Bristol we had injuries to Piazon and Ojo, plus a red card to Kamara; against Sunderland we had injuries to Kebano, Atiye and Piazon. So, we really only lost the last game to Birmingham and Debry in the playoff with a full strength team all 17/18 season, which itself could be put down to a lack of depth and the squad getting tired towards the end of the season (like Leeds).

While no team can expect to beat teams like Wolves or Cardiff with injuries to their best players; but we messed up dropping 12 points against bottom five teams Sunderland, Burton, Reading and Bolton twice. In the first half of the 17/18 season, against the bottom five teams we got 5 out of 15, without Cainrey we should have enough depth that be are able to do better than that. When Cairney is unavailable this season, I think we will really miss Seri. Hopefully, TK will add homegrown depth on deadline day.

I don't disbelieve you but that stat is mental re when kmac and tc played 21 wins from 29 games yet when they were missing only 6 wins from 20 games
back up required for tc but who will want to be basically an understudy so I can see a plan b in formation and tactics when he is missing. can knockaert do the cm thing at a push?
just seen Matt Oreilly's youtube highlights (I know I know)
and maybe Oreilly can cover for tc and   not only keep him on his toes but allow him to be rested and eventually oust him?
nothing lasts forever

[Deeping_white]

I'm still not sure why people think that Targett is a clear upgrade on Bryan? Bryan will have a good season this year as he did for the past few seasons that he was in the championship, playing in an even better team than he was before

[FFC1987]

I'm still not sure why people think that Targett is a clear upgrade on Bryan? Bryan will have a good season this year as he did for the past few seasons that he was in the championship, playing in an even better team than he was before

Clear is subjective obviously but I think Targett is better overall. Absolutely marginal though but I wouldn't say Bryan had a good season last year for us. Not bad, not definitely not good.

[WindyCity]

14 months ago most thought our signings lacked finding proper defensive focus/quality as someone rekindeled that thread from last summer a few days ago.

Forget about depth; it's "quality not quantity". 12 mediocre defenders does not equal 4 good ones.

I do think just a RB and CB should do the trick, 2 signings though as long as they walk into the starting 11.

Our depth matters enormously maybe more than quality, we were virtually undefeated the entire 17/18 season except for injuries (particularly to Cairney, Ream, McDonald and Wingers). The three best Midfielders in the division is not enough to get you promoted if you drop points most games that one is not available or returning from injury.

In 17/18, with Cairney and McDonald playing (not including when they had a first game back starting): Played 29, Wins 21, Draws 4 and Losses 4; but without both Cairney and McDonald starting (and neither first game back starting): Played 20, Wins 6, Draws 9 and Losses 5. That's the danger of second team players, even though we had Norwood.

Even the three losses with Cainrey and McDonald, against Bristol we had injuries to Piazon and Ojo, plus a red card to Kamara; against Sunderland we had injuries to Kebano, Atiye and Piazon. So, we really only lost the last game to Birmingham and Debry in the playoff with a full strength team all 17/18 season, which itself could be put down to a lack of depth and the squad getting tired towards the end of the season (like Leeds).

While no team can expect to beat teams like Wolves or Cardiff with injuries to their best players; but we messed up dropping 12 points against bottom five teams Sunderland, Burton, Reading and Bolton twice. In the first half of the 17/18 season, against the bottom five teams we got 5 out of 15, without Cainrey we should have enough depth that be are able to do better than that. When Cairney is unavailable this season, I think we will really miss Seri. Hopefully, TK will add homegrown depth on deadline day.

Well, not trying to be narly here, but there are a lot of if's, and's, but's, woulda, coulda, shoulda's in your above analysis.  If any team, in any sport, can keep their starters healthy and fit throughout a campaign, they will produce their best and optimum results based on that given talent.  I would opine that your intent was not excuse making, but it does come close to that.  Fingers crossed that FFC starts the season with a team/players that can play as a cohesive unit (ie. gelled/bedded in, which, btw, I happen to think is way over rated) and hit the ground running.  And yes, I still think the teams' back line defense needs upgrading.  I see many here posting that this team is 'good enough' for Champ level/quality play, but methinks a mid/lower table finish if defense is not strengthened.

[toshes mate]

It's a rather dubious thing to compare teams season to season without a careful look at why things worked the way they did and which players were key to that working.  In my memory of Jokanovic's era he always noted how vulnerable we were to counter attacks springing from careless loss of possession normally from errors in that area of the pitch that straddles the centre circle in either half.  His remedy was bravery, courage and taking risks to outscore opponents and it worked in both full seasons unless it didn't.   SP's methods will be different but I still believe we will see a return to possession of the football as the best means of defence.

[The Rational Fan]

It's a rather dubious thing to compare teams season to season without a careful look at why things worked the way they did and which players were key to that working.  In my memory of Jokanovic's era he always noted how vulnerable we were to counter attacks springing from careless loss of possession normally from errors in that area of the pitch that straddles the centre circle in either half.  His remedy was bravery, courage and taking risks to outscore opponents and it worked in both full seasons unless it didn't.   SP's methods will be different but I still believe we will see a return to possession of the football as the best means of defence.

I think statistics tell us a lot, particularly the first XI is good enough to win the championship provided they stay fit and in form, although you probably didn't need statistics to tell you that. What that means is we need to work our how to strengthen the team when Cairney is not playing and the answer could be upgrade Odoi or Cairneys replacement.