Author Topic: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?  (Read 1187 times)

Offline Statto

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2019, 12:33:08 PM »
The Brentford model is an interesting one.

Their academy was costing £2.5m to run and the competition from other London clubs more often than not meant that the promising ones would get snapped up elsewhere rather than turn professional and graduate to their first team.

So they closed their academy 3 years ago and switched the focus to picking up 17 to 20 year-olds who have been released by Premier League academies to try and bring them along via a B-team.

Has it worked?

Last season, four B-teamers played for the first team, more than the number of homegrown players who had made their debuts in any one season in over a decade.

It's certainly food for thought...

Certainly agree it's working for them.

Equally, on those numbers (£2.5m per year) you could argue our academy, which has been more successful than theirs was ever likely to be, is probably working for us. £25m for Sessegnon, say £5m for Roberts (assuming most of the performance-related payments will never be triggered), £4m for Adeniran apparently, perhaps another £5m for Elliott and Hyndman at tribunal, a few million for the others we've sold like Stockdale, Woodrow, Trotta and LVC, plus I'd value the couple of seasons we had out of Dembele, Sessegnon, LVC et al at 10m at least, and now Steven Sessegnon and Rodak look like £5-10m players...oh and Bettinelli... I reckon it equates to something like £10m per season worth of benefit, so well profitable 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 12:42:56 PM by Statto »

Offline YankeeJim

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2019, 05:14:22 PM »
The Brentford model is an interesting one.

Their academy was costing £2.5m to run and the competition from other London clubs more often than not meant that the promising ones would get snapped up elsewhere rather than turn professional and graduate to their first team.

So they closed their academy 3 years ago and switched the focus to picking up 17 to 20 year-olds who have been released by Premier League academies to try and bring them along via a B-team.

Has it worked?

Last season, four B-teamers played for the first team, more than the number of homegrown players who had made their debuts in any one season in over a decade.

It's certainly food for thought...

Certainly agree it's working for them.

Equally, on those numbers (£2.5m per year) you could argue our academy, which has been more successful than theirs was ever likely to be, is probably working for us. £25m for Sessegnon, say £5m for Roberts (assuming most of the performance-related payments will never be triggered), £4m for Adeniran apparently, perhaps another £5m for Elliott and Hyndman at tribunal, a few million for the others we've sold like Stockdale, Woodrow, Trotta and LVC, plus I'd value the couple of seasons we had out of Dembele, Sessegnon, LVC et al at 10m at least, and now Steven Sessegnon and Rodak look like £5-10m players...oh and Bettinelli... I reckon it equates to something like £10m per season worth of benefit, so well profitable

Is your argument that the academy is a cash generator rather than a training ground for future starters? To me, that would mean that ownership has accepted second class status and the same would be true for every team outside the top six. One can't really know why a man would plunk down millions to buy a team and then accept his allotted place. I find it hard to believe that a self made man like Khan wants to be a second rate football owner. I'd say that its in his DNA to be top dog. That, I'm sure is true of most owners.

Offline gurru991

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2019, 08:07:05 PM »
Most clubs are at the mercy of the Big Six. Hard to hold on to a player when Champions league is available. Clubs like Leicester & Palace have demanded top price which does help but Man U still get what they want


Offline Statto

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2019, 08:08:09 PM »
Is your argument that the academy is a cash generator rather than a training ground for future starters? To me, that would mean that ownership has accepted second class status and the same would be true for every team outside the top six. One can't really know why a man would plunk down millions to buy a team and then accept his allotted place. I find it hard to believe that a self made man like Khan wants to be a second rate football owner. I'd say that its in his DNA to be top dog. That, I'm sure is true of most owners.

Not really sure what you mean.

We absolutely are a "second rate" team - we aren't going to compete with the top 6 anytime soon - and I'm quite sure SK appreciates that.

I'm not suggesting SK has "accepted" us being "second rate" forever, or that he's looking to make a profit from FFC, but irrespective of his wealth and ambitions, we're constrained by FFP, and also he's said repeatedly he wants to do things in what he calls a "sustainable" way. So everything we do is driven by "cash generation" to a large extent because, provided the cash we generate is recycled back into the team, that's what will deliver future success in a sustainable way and without breaching FFP.

To give some other examples, the justification for the Riverside Stand was the future revenue streams it will deliver. TK has also talked about signing players with resale value etc, and where we've had the opportunity to profit from selling a player (eg Aluko or Malone) we've done that notwithstanding their importance to the team at the time. But all those funds go back into the team.

Patently, we look to acquire players as cheaply as possible, so even if you treat the academy as a "training ground for future starters", that's only attractive to the extent those "future starters" are cheaper to develop in the academy than they are to buy in the transfer market.

Most of the academy players (Elliott aside) will spend a season or two in our team before moving on, so I'm not sure that being a "training ground for future starters" and "cash generator" are mutually exclusive, but anyway, even to the extent the academy is a "cash generator", well it's no different to the Riverside Stand in that respect.     
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 08:12:18 PM by Statto »

Offline The Rational Fan

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2019, 11:29:23 PM »
In reality what does it matter as long as we get well paid for him

We must be realistic that any player good enough to play for Fulhan at 19 years old probably could play for a much better team at 25 years old and probably will. Our problem with playing young players, is most of youth players have short contracts. The only young players with long contracts are Steven Sessegnon, Onamah, Rodak and Kamara.

Most of these young players would have been offerred longer contracts at so called low wages (but wages most doctors would consider very good), but most prefer to keep their options open and hang out for better offers that maybe coming. There is not much point playing Matt Riley or Fossey when they need to make a few mistakes to improve and can leave at the end of the year.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 03:01:26 AM by The Rational Fan »

Offline toshes mate

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2019, 10:06:23 AM »
It seems pretty obvious Brentford’s business model concentrates on best return for expenditure in their case and that their academy was not producing that.  The switch to picking up rejects of a suitable age from other academies to benefit from their excess training ground capacity and facilities has produced positive financial and performance improvements.  This may suggest that for some clubs there are just too many competing academies in the same area to benefit all of them.

My own view is that football academies may be too narrow and restrictive in areas where there are large numbers of professional football clubs.  I also don’t believe you are ever going to stop cherry picking of young talent unless it was made illegal to do so and in a free market that seems very unlikely to happen once a young person is of working age.   

Whether the checks and balances of compensation are fit for purpose is a whole different subject. The authorities could place a specific percentage value on any individual’s employment worth - throughout their sporting career – if they have spent the necessary qualifying period in any single academy - rather like a royalty that is collected and paid to that academy.   Of course even that would need some clever control mechanisms in place to defeat the wide boys.


Offline mrmicawbers

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2019, 01:32:01 PM »
Maybe clubs that have their Academy players poached by bigger clubs should automatically get a buy on clause on future sale of the player.This may also inhibit the buying club from poaching in the first place.

Offline Lyle from Hangeland

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2019, 01:59:35 PM »
The Brentford model is an interesting one.

Their academy was costing £2.5m to run and the competition from other London clubs more often than not meant that the promising ones would get snapped up elsewhere rather than turn professional and graduate to their first team.

So they closed their academy 3 years ago and switched the focus to picking up 17 to 20 year-olds who have been released by Premier League academies to try and bring them along via a B-team.

Has it worked?

Last season, four B-teamers played for the first team, more than the number of homegrown players who had made their debuts in any one season in over a decade.

It's certainly food for thought...

Certainly agree it's working for them.

Equally, on those numbers (£2.5m per year) you could argue our academy, which has been more successful than theirs was ever likely to be, is probably working for us. £25m for Sessegnon, say £5m for Roberts (assuming most of the performance-related payments will never be triggered), £4m for Adeniran apparently, perhaps another £5m for Elliott and Hyndman at tribunal, a few million for the others we've sold like Stockdale, Woodrow, Trotta and LVC, plus I'd value the couple of seasons we had out of Dembele, Sessegnon, LVC et al at 10m at least, and now Steven Sessegnon and Rodak look like £5-10m players...oh and Bettinelli... I reckon it equates to something like £10m per season worth of benefit, so well profitable

Is your argument that the academy is a cash generator rather than a training ground for future starters? To me, that would mean that ownership has accepted second class status and the same would be true for every team outside the top six. One can't really know why a man would plunk down millions to buy a team and then accept his allotted place. I find it hard to believe that a self made man like Khan wants to be a second rate football owner. I'd say that its in his DNA to be top dog. That, I'm sure is true of most owners.

Name 5 Manchester City academy players in their first team?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 02:03:03 PM by Lyle from Hangeland »

Offline copthornemike

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2019, 02:06:36 PM »
An interesting perspective on the difficulties successful academies are experiencing in keeping promising youngsters, in this case Exeter City:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/14728/11805574/inside-exeter-city8217s-academy-the-small-club-developing-big-talent

Includes a reference to the transfer of Jay Stansfield to Fulham:
"As Exeter's reputation has grown they have become a target. Sean Goss left for United in 2015. More recently, Jay Stansfield was sold to Fulham in the summer, aged just 16, on the basis that it was more than they would have received in the arbitration. "It is very difficult for us. Something must be done because it is not fair. The danger is that academies close. "

I would agree with these sentiments completely!


Offline Twig

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2019, 07:51:10 PM »
In reality what does it matter as long as we get well paid for him

Pretty much my view in a nutshell.  Young players who are perceived to have very high potential wil almost always get cherry picked by the top 6-8 clubs.  I don’t care if it’s spuds or wherever (but preferably not Chelsea, as long as we get properly paid.

Offline Artful Dodger

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2019, 01:25:08 PM »
An interesting perspective on the difficulties successful academies are experiencing in keeping promising youngsters, in this case Exeter City:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/14728/11805574/inside-exeter-city8217s-academy-the-small-club-developing-big-talent

Includes a reference to the transfer of Jay Stansfield to Fulham:
"As Exeter's reputation has grown they have become a target. Sean Goss left for United in 2015. More recently, Jay Stansfield was sold to Fulham in the summer, aged just 16, on the basis that it was more than they would have received in the arbitration. "It is very difficult for us. Something must be done because it is not fair. The danger is that academies close. "

I would agree with these sentiments completely!
Huddersfield closed their academy a couple of years ago as well for similar reasons to Brentford but that is the way of the world. The week that Elliot went to Liverpool, we got the lad from Exeter and in that case we were the 'big bad club'. I agree with Statto though that we have seen more value from our academy than most either through player sales or players making to the 1st team, thus saving on transfer fees. 

Offline toshes mate

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Re: Is no one else sick of being a feeder club for Spurs?
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2019, 07:52:03 PM »
I saw a video recently in which a professional English football academy insider showed statistics which prove that the average youngster attending has a 0.025% chance of making an appearance for a Premier League club in their entire playing careers. Now there were lots of side issues to these statistics explained in the video (e.g. decided not to pursue football career; chose another sport; had little chance on joining etc) but the overriding factor was that the standard required for a successful PL career is becoming increasingly higher and there are just too many stumbling blocks for all but the most talented of the bunch.  The suggestion is that there are just too many academies.