Is FFP causing us to be a yo-yo club?

[bigalffc]

We are unable to buy players of real quality even though our owner is a billionaire. In the past clubs such as Chelscum and Man City have been able to buy their way to success. This is now impossible for any hopeful clubs to do and therefore we end up with season long loans making up the majority of our team. I know our DOF gets some stick over recruitment and some of this is justified , but his hand are tied. I can't see any clubs being able to join the "big six" because of these rules. No other businesses owners / Directors would be stopped from investing into their Company. These rules should be challenged.

[The Rock]

Very much so.

I am not sure the rules need to be changed. It does favour the haves vs. the have nots though. It's a much more difficult environment from when Maf bought the club.

For all the Khan's faults, it is not for lack of effort, though, they just haven't been shrewd enough as we all know. It will take time to make up for the 100m wasted in the promotion season before last. 

A sound base, business model, and shrewd biz is all that is needed. Baby steps and a bit of luck is what it takes. Leicester is in 3rd yet they aren't in the Top 6 is a pretty good example.

[FFC In Oz]

Very much so.

I am not sure the rules need to be changed. It does favour the haves vs. the have nots though. It's a much more difficult environment from when Maf bought the club.

For all the Khan's faults, it is not for lack of effort, though, they just haven't been shrewd enough as we all know. It will take time to make up for the 100m wasted in the promotion season before last. 

A sound base, business model, and shrewd biz is all that is needed. Baby steps and a bit of luck is what it takes. Leicester is in 3rd yet they aren't in the Top 6 is a pretty good example.

I would slice off my left nut to be in Leicester's position right now.

[blingo]

Very much so.

I am not sure the rules need to be changed. It does favour the haves vs. the have nots though. It's a much more difficult environment from when Maf bought the club.

For all the Khan's faults, it is not for lack of effort, though, they just haven't been shrewd enough as we all know. It will take time to make up for the 100m wasted in the promotion season before last. 

A sound base, business model, and shrewd biz is all that is needed. Baby steps and a bit of luck is what it takes. Leicester is in 3rd yet they aren't in the Top 6 is a pretty good example.

I would slice off my left nut to be in Leicester's position right now.

I'd let ya lol.

[MikeTheCubed]

There are plenty of promoted clubs in recent years who've spent less than Fulham on transfers/wages that have survived relegation for at least 1 season.

[Nero]

Very much so.

I am not sure the rules need to be changed. It does favour the haves vs. the have nots though. It's a much more difficult environment from when Maf bought the club.

For all the Khan's faults, it is not for lack of effort, though, they just haven't been shrewd enough as we all know. It will take time to make up for the 100m wasted in the promotion season before last. 

A sound base, business model, and shrewd biz is all that is needed. Baby steps and a bit of luck is what it takes. Leicester is in 3rd yet they aren't in the Top 6 is a pretty good example.

Depends on how you cook the book, Leicester are sponsored by King Power own by their owner so pumping money into the club that way, if  Sk could sponsor the club for 100m for a couple of the season make up 100m we would soon be able to afford better players

[The Rational Fan]

There are plenty of promoted clubs in recent years who've spent less than Fulham on transfers/wages that have survived relegation for at least 1 season.

Most of the clubs that have broken the yo-yo curse have had a little luck. The first season of Wolves and Sheffield United had statistically the two lowest injury rate (as measured by games missed) of any team in the premier league ever. Aston Villa spent the record amount of any promoted team, but also got Jack Grelish for free and would have been relegated without him. Aston Villa spent big, spent well, developed youth and still needed some luck.

Leeds, Wolves, and Aston Villa also significant gate receipts, sponsorship and máximum FFP investment, so they have more money than us. Plus some teams pick up a massively undervalued premier league player for almost nothing, where one DOF sees the players talent and no other DOF in the premier league does; TK looks for agreement amount scouts so more likely to choose a standard choice so less likely to make a mistake or pick up a bargain.

The important thing about "FFP with Parchuate Payments" is it is now harder to rise in the league; but it is also much harder to fall in the league (our second XI are better than QPR). The DOF is successfully ensuring we stay a yo-yo team, while the stadium is rebuild, he improves his recruitment team and gradually improves the squad with top championship players. We won't yo-yo forever, we need to keep getting promoted and have a lucky PL season once.

[Dougie]

There are plenty of promoted clubs in recent years who've spent less than Fulham on transfers/wages that have survived relegation for at least 1 season.

Bear in mind even Sheffield United spent an estimated £63m in their first season in the Prem. Burnley spent £41m. We have spent £14m in transfers plus whatever we spent on loan fees.

DoF doesn't deserve sympathy though. It's because he spent £40m on three Championship-quality wingers when he could have been far more prudent.

[The Rational Fan]

There are plenty of promoted clubs in recent years who've spent less than Fulham on transfers/wages that have survived relegation for at least 1 season.

Bear in mind even Sheffield United spent an estimated £63m in their first season in the Prem. Burnley spent £41m. We have spent £14m in transfers plus whatever we spent on loan fees. DoF doesn't deserve sympathy though. It's because he spent £40m on three Championship-quality wingers when he could have been far more prudent.

Staying Up in the Premier League requires a team being promoted with an almost premier league-ready squad. Spending £40m+ is about filling gaps in your squad with Premier League players. If you come up with too many gaps, you either hope your championship players cut it or you spend £100m premier league players hope they gel. Neither normally work.

Fulham came up with Betts; Christie, Odoi, Ream, R.Sess; KMac, Stefjo, Cairney; Atyie, Kamara, and Kebano as the first XI for the preseason. A truly terrible Premier League team that would have done worse than Derby 07/08.

A Big Transfer Budget is more a symptom that the DOF and manager know the Championship Squad is not good enough. Aston Villa had Grealish, McGinn, and spent £140m, but it was still barely enough to stay up.

[clarkey]

FFP does not apply to coaches and staff.

I think just get the very best manager we can, and keep the nucleus of what we have.Get rid of the obvious dead wood and promote from within as much as possible player wise, with one or two diamonds introduced. Like a top goal scorer and a creative Cairney type to develop. Our defence is fine: Tosin and Hector/Kongolo is better than most Championship sides especially with Bryan and Antonee. Buy Lemina. With Reid and StefJo back with Cairney and Bobby DR the midfield is fine. Kebano returns. Mitro can do it in the Champs plus Maja. That is a promotion winning team.

With the right coach.Then every window add one top player, sell the Cavs and AK and every other waste of space.Mawson,  etc etc can all go.

[toshes mate]

If FFP had been properly managed by the authorities in respect of clubs who broke the rules via absolute and unavoidable penalties prescribed in its original form then everyone would know what the cost of a breach would be.   It has not been uniformly applied to miscreants what with the appeals mechanism and the time lag between offence and punishment.  It isn't IMO fit for purpose. 

[The Rational Fan]

FFP does not apply to coaches and staff.

I think just get the very best manager we can, and keep the nucleus of what we have.Get rid of the obvious dead wood and promote from within as much as possible player-wise, with one or two diamonds introduced. Like a top goal scorer and a creative Cairney type to develop. Our defence is fine: Tosin and Hector/Kongolo is better than most Championship sides especially with Bryan and Antonee. Buy Lemina. With Reid and StefJo back with Cairney and Bobby DR the midfield is fine. Kebano returns. Mitro can do it in the Champs plus Maja. That is a promotion winning team.

With the right coach.Then every window add one top player, sell the Cavs and AK and every other waste of space.Mawson,  etc etc can all go.

I believe FFP does apply to coaches and staff, but overall your ideas are brilliant. I think the DOF will focus on building depth with a younger squad that can yo-yo a few times, before establishing ourselves as the premier league. Our DOF doesn't know how to stay up, but I believe he will get better and better at getting up.

Importantly, our amortization starts to decrease after the end of next season, after Mawson, Anguissa, Seri, and Mitro's transfer fees are paid off. If we get promoted, we will be able to spend significantly again, and we should be able to get a lot of the best young championship players so that we are an exceptional yo-yo squad, and maybe stay up.

[Whitestone]

FFP does not apply to coaches and staff.

I think just get the very best manager we can, and keep the nucleus of what we have.Get rid of the obvious dead wood and promote from within as much as possible player wise, with one or two diamonds introduced. Like a top goal scorer and a creative Cairney type to develop. Our defence is fine: Tosin and Hector/Kongolo is better than most Championship sides especially with Bryan and Antonee. Buy Lemina. With Reid and StefJo back with Cairney and Bobby DR the midfield is fine. Kebano returns. Mitro can do it in the Champs plus Maja. That is a promotion winning team.

With the right coach.Then every window add one top player, sell the Cavs and AK and every other waste of space.Mawson,  etc etc can all go.

The coaches and their staff can only work with the players that FFP allows the club to bring in so of course FFP affects them too.

Last season the club brought in Cavaleiro, Knockhart and Decordova-Reid at great expense. All have played in the Premier League before and were released by their clubs where they failed to make an impact, so it really wasn't a surprise that they have struggled this season. They didn't set the world alight last season either. The signings also seriously undermined our spending power this season and are an example of how the recruitment  team at Fulham failed to bring in players who will be Premier League ready in the event of promotion. I haven't given up on this season but if the inevitable happens and we are relegated I hope they learn from these mistakes and build a team that can compete and survive in the Premier League.

[mrmicawbers]

Being promoted through the play offs has definitely hindered us,so need to get automatic spot.

[ALG01]

We are unable to buy players of real quality even though our owner is a billionaire. In the past clubs such as Chelscum and Man City have been able to buy their way to success. This is now impossible for any hopeful clubs to do and therefore we end up with season long loans making up the majority of our team. I know our DOF gets some stick over recruitment and some of this is justified , but his hand are tied. I can't see any clubs being able to join the "big six" because of these rules. No other businesses owners / Directors would be stopped from investing into their Company. These rules should be challenged.

FFP is not really the main factor. Obviously it is a factor but good management would take a long view on how to manage affairs and look at the money we have wasted on second rate players that stop us signing more imaginative players. The problem we have is very poor management from the top down and that has been the case since the first three manager season with mitroglu and magath.

[The Rational Fan]

We are unable to buy players of real quality even though our owner is a billionaire. In the past clubs such as Chelscum and Man City have been able to buy their way to success. This is now impossible for any hopeful clubs to do and therefore we end up with season long loans making up the majority of our team. I know our DOF gets some stick over recruitment and some of this is justified , but his hand are tied. I can't see any clubs being able to join the "big six" because of these rules. No other businesses owners / Directors would be stopped from investing into their Company. These rules should be challenged.

FFP is not really the main factor. Obviously it is a factor but good management would take a long view on how to manage affairs and look at the money we have wasted on second rate players that stop us signing more imaginative players. The problem we have is very poor management from the top down and that has been the case since the first three manager season with mitroglu and magath.

Last summer, Tony Khan wanted Matthew Cash, Bertrand Traoré, and Ollie Watkins but FFP wouldn't allow him to offer enough money to get these players. FFP is the reason, we didn't get these players and why we got 5 wins/12 draws/17 lossess rather than 9wins/10 draws/15 losses (with goal difference improved by more than 6 goals)

[peter w]

There are plenty of promoted clubs in recent years who've spent less than Fulham on transfers/wages that have survived relegation for at least 1 season.

Bear in mind even Sheffield United spent an estimated £63m in their first season in the Prem. Burnley spent £41m. We have spent £14m in transfers plus whatever we spent on loan fees. DoF doesn't deserve sympathy though. It's because he spent £40m on three Championship-quality wingers when he could have been far more prudent.

Staying Up in the Premier League requires a team being promoted with an almost premier league-ready squad. Spending £40m+ is about filling gaps in your squad with Premier League players. If you come up with too many gaps, you either hope your championship players cut it or you spend £100m premier league players hope they gel. Neither normally work.

Fulham came up with Betts; Christie, Odoi, Ream, R.Sess; KMac, Stefjo, Cairney; Atyie, Kamara, and Kebano as the first XI for the preseason. A truly terrible Premier League team that would have done worse than Derby 07/08.

A Big Transfer Budget is more a symptom that the DOF and manager know the Championship Squad is not good enough. Aston Villa had Grealish, McGinn, and spent £140m, but it was still barely enough to stay up.

Absolutely. Stability is the key. Norwich and Watford are coming back up with largely the same team that they went down with. It happened to Burnley a few season back too.  In Villa's case the big spend was because they needed to assemble a squad because we didn't have enough players due to loan returnees and offloads. Stability this season and a few additions have made all the difference. Mings, Targett, Luiz, Nakamba, El Ghazi, McGinn, Grealish, Trezeguet - all bought at the start of last season and all still with us this season. Shows its about stability and as has been said - just getting through that first year back.

[Southdowns White]

Slightly different angle but, Any system which makes the clubs of those who cannot spend huge amounts on players reliant on loan players is wrong. This hands an automatic advantage in keeping those teams at the top, if a team stays up or is promoted the team still can't afford the player, so that position is filled by another loan player for another season.  It proves that the amount for transfers and wages among the elite is out of kilter,  there should be a seamless declining line from the top to bottom , whereas what we have at the moment are too many players sitting on huge wages thinking they are better than they are, artificially holding the transfer fees and wages for all players below them way too high.   Why buy extra players and not do anything with them? The loan system works for younger players coming up in the game at all levels. Look at RLC this season, Coming back from injury no chance of playing for chelsea this season and now we all know, no chance next season. The system needs sorting in my view, If you cant survive with a first team squad of 25 players and 5 extra first team players not in the 1st team squad then there is something wrong. I think the pressure these teams have put on the governing bodies of football, allowing large amounts of players to be amassed by clubs is probably justified by these clubs for playing in European competition, this in my opinion has been abused at the expense of the teams bellow them. How many young players have teams lost to bigger clubs and greedy agents only to sit in the loan system for years. Clubs need first team players owned by the clubs they play for, if they do well, they may be bought by a club able to afford their transfer and wages but not just bought to be loaned out.

[toshes mate]

Last summer, Tony Khan wanted Matthew Cash, Bertrand Traoré, and Ollie Watkins but FFP wouldn't allow him to offer enough money to get these players. FFP is the reason, we didn't get these players and why we got 5 wins/12 draws/17 lossess rather than 9wins/10 draws/15 losses (with goal difference improved by more than 6 goals)

I am sorry but your rational thinking is irrational.  TK blew his opportunity after the first Wembley win.  He squandered money which was always a part of the FFP balance for the immediate three year future.  FFP was there all along, it didn't suddenly kick in after the event.  It's a system that follows you along and is saying all the time in very loud letters 'DON'T DARE THROW CASH AWAY'.  And you believe TK was a yo-yo fan all along!!!  I am sorry mate but your logic doesn't make any sense to me.  TK couldn't run a bath.

[ALG01]

Last summer, Tony Khan wanted Matthew Cash, Bertrand Traoré, and Ollie Watkins but FFP wouldn't allow him to offer enough money to get these players. FFP is the reason, we didn't get these players and why we got 5 wins/12 draws/17 lossess rather than 9wins/10 draws/15 losses (with goal difference improved by more than 6 goals)

I am sorry but your rational thinking is irrational.  TK blew his opportunity after the first Wembley win.  He squandered money which was always a part of the FFP balance for the immediate three year future.  FFP was there all along, it didn't suddenly kick in after the event.  It's a system that follows you along and is saying all the time in very loud letters 'DON'T DARE THROW CASH AWAY'.  And you believe TK was a yo-yo fan all along!!!  I am sorry mate but your logic doesn't make any sense to me.  TK couldn't run a bath.

I think, you have more or less hit the nail on the head. FFP is not a sudden change. Our management has had to deal with it for a long time and simply mismanaged. They fail to understand how the system works and to claim FFP stops them buying players now, when other manage is a function of incompetence.