Cairney

[colinwhite]

Tom is a sublime footballer.A great ball retainer as well as a creator. We all know that . But he hasn't started many games for a reason . He's not the ball winning ,everywhere central midfielder ,nor the pressing  forward thinking number ten we have at present . We. are more open as a team with Tom playing centrally. Marco has found the perfect role for him : significant sub that changes games from the bench and helps us either dominate possession or retain it more as we see games out. Definitely good enough for the premiership in his new role.

[toshes mate]

All teams need playmakers and team mates on much the same wavelength as each other.  But playmakers who can fulill other roles reliably in every game are few and far between.  Hence the all singing and dancing goalkeepers, defenders, midfielders and even forwards.  Contemporary football demands versatility in much the same way as athletics demands runners who are good at the beginning, the middle and the end of races.  But you will hear athletics coaches talk about the middle of races and how important it is to be effective and ensure the race is won before it even enters its final phase.  Football is the same in what it demands in midfield and that is a reason why so many formations appear to exist. 

Jokanovic insisted on nothing but effective partnerships and so the midfield roamed wherever it wanted until a defence was in disarray.  Silva's team ethic is for a more cohesive midfield which can penetrate via width or narrowness just as effectively and even miss out the midfield altogether if offside can be avoided.  The whole is about versatility and how many not so versatile players you can afford to start with and not be carrying passengers.  Parker couldn't even afford space for Mitro because he never understood forward play or how much effort the Serbian put into his game. That is why he failed.  Silva is much more on a wavelength with individuals but he does not have a large squad to play around with.  Hence solutions are much more limited and yet he still manages to produce some exceptional performances from the squad.

Cairney is a richly talented player whose history has been littered by injuries.  He has been managed for these physical issues ever since his initial 'op' and I don't think there is any other reason for his 'shorter' cameos than that.   

[spoonffc]

tom cairney - the man with premier league feet but Sunday league legs

[HV71]

Tom is a sublime footballer.A great ball retainer as well as a creator. We all know that . But he hasn't started many games for a reason . He's not the ball winning ,everywhere central midfielder ,nor the pressing  forward thinking number ten we have at present . We. are more open as a team with Tom playing centrally. Marco has found the perfect role for him : significant sub that changes games from the bench and helps us either dominate possession or retain it more as we see games out. Definitely good enough for the premiership in his new role.

Great summary - TC is quality

[Sting of the North]

tom cairney - the man with premier league feet but Sunday league legs

I get that views differ, but I really don't get utterly hyperbolic statements like this one.

A recent example to look at is the Man U game, where TC got his only PL start this season. Him, Palhinha and Pereira was up against Casemiro, Eriksen and Fernandes (all widely regarded as world class) and he looked every bit as much a PL player as the rest of them. It was one of our best midfield displays this season, and TC was a huge part of it. The fact that the game ended in such a bad way does not at all take away from the excellent Fulham performance of which TC was at the heart of much of it.

That alone should be sufficient to conclude that statements such as the quoted are nothing short of disrepspectful.

In my opinion.

[Woolly Mammoth]

It's been a tough time for TC managing his knee(s) and the many differences between keeping up a promotion challenge or tempering a survival regime with moments of serious hope.  But the guy handles it all with elegance and flair, a welcome relief from the clumsiness and guile from the many who lack his ball skills.  He is still a class act.

The voice of reason TM

Love Tom to bits and you have described his salient points superbly, yes a class act on and off the field.
If Messi had scored that goal the buffoons in the media and studio would be creaming themselves and repeating the footage day and night.
He has plenty of football in him yet at Premier League level and i value him very highly. He can still do a job for Fulham and should not be put out to graze yet after all his years of service.
I shall never forget his winning goal at Wembley v Aston Villa and have us long suffering Fulham fans something to celebrate.
People can have short memories but there are some players and their service to Fulham which happen that you should never forget, and Tom deserves respect and allow him to serve Fulham as long as possible.

[Sting of the North]

Well you may think that I am talking rubbish but I think Marco probably agrees with me because he does not start Tom and my observations explained above a likely to a reason why.  It's all about opinions and on the ball Tom is as good as anyone and better than most.  However football matches are won and lost depending on how effective a team is a scoring AND no conceding.  Playing 4-2-3-1 with Tom as one of the 2 midfield players creates issues.  I would in fact suggest v Sunderland we played a more 4-1-4-1 with Tom and Pereira as more advanced in midfield leave space for Sunderland to attack.

100% agree with this. Tom is good but lets not kid ourselves, he shines the most against lesser opposition. He is not good enough to start in the prem but is a very good impact sub to play balls for when we bring on pacey players in the last 10-15

Tom is not good enough to start in the Prem ?
In your opinion that is, I have a completely different opinion....
Please add an IMO when spouting like that

IMO he isn't , and the stats back it up.

73 appearences in the prem, 3 goals 2 assists. are you really sitting there telling me thats prem quality? come on....

Anguissa played as a CDM and has more assists than him ( 3 ) in 14 less games in the prem

Pereira has 21 appearences for us and 2 goals , 5 assists ....

Reed has 20 appearences 1 goal 2 assists..

Palhinha has the same amout of goals as him as a CDM ....


So how on earth is Tom prem level ?

I guess if you believe that the only thing a player can contribute is goals and assists, then you have a point. We should probably play BDR instead of Reed (whose stats you completely botched both for games played and goals). As an aside, maybe you should look at goals/assist per 90 minutes to at least get something comparable (not that it really matter with the small sample size, but anyhow).

If you believe that there are other atributes that may also contribute to a player's worth, then I suggest you go back to the drawing board.

[Sammyffc]

Well you may think that I am talking rubbish but I think Marco probably agrees with me because he does not start Tom and my observations explained above a likely to a reason why.  It's all about opinions and on the ball Tom is as good as anyone and better than most.  However football matches are won and lost depending on how effective a team is a scoring AND no conceding.  Playing 4-2-3-1 with Tom as one of the 2 midfield players creates issues.  I would in fact suggest v Sunderland we played a more 4-1-4-1 with Tom and Pereira as more advanced in midfield leave space for Sunderland to attack.

100% agree with this. Tom is good but lets not kid ourselves, he shines the most against lesser opposition. He is not good enough to start in the prem but is a very good impact sub to play balls for when we bring on pacey players in the last 10-15

Tom is not good enough to start in the Prem ?
In your opinion that is, I have a completely different opinion....
Please add an IMO when spouting like that

IMO he isn't , and the stats back it up.

73 appearences in the prem, 3 goals 2 assists. are you really sitting there telling me thats prem quality? come on....

Anguissa played as a CDM and has more assists than him ( 3 ) in 14 less games in the prem

Pereira has 21 appearences for us and 2 goals , 5 assists ....

Reed has 20 appearences 1 goal 2 assists..

Palhinha has the same amout of goals as him as a CDM ....


So how on earth is Tom prem level ?

I guess if you believe that the only thing a player can contribute is goals and assists, then you have a point. We should probably play BDR instead of Reed (whose stats you completely botched both for games played and goals). As an aside, maybe you should look at goals/assist per 90 minutes to at least get something comparable (not that it really matter with the small sample size, but anyhow).

If you believe that there are other atributes that may also contribute to a player's worth, then I suggest you go back to the drawing board.

Fair points you make, but what exactly are you saying his qualities in the prem are? or position? whos place is he taking? he has always been a CAM or CM with attacking free roam, yet has some of the worst prem attacking stats ive seen for a player in any of those positions. if you looked at any of his stats i think you would realise the point i am making.

If you say that you think Tom should start because he passes the ball then you might have a point, but thats about it. This is the premier league, we are playing against top players week in week out and we need quality.

Alot of fans have sentimental value when it comes to player, even in the championship many fans were complaining he was a one foot wonder and goes missing during games which was unfair, yet in this league apparently he is good enough to start ??

Tom Cairney in the championship is gold-dust

Tom Cairney in the premier league is just dust.

[Sammyffc]

Well you may think that I am talking rubbish but I think Marco probably agrees with me because he does not start Tom and my observations explained above a likely to a reason why.  It's all about opinions and on the ball Tom is as good as anyone and better than most.  However football matches are won and lost depending on how effective a team is a scoring AND no conceding.  Playing 4-2-3-1 with Tom as one of the 2 midfield players creates issues.  I would in fact suggest v Sunderland we played a more 4-1-4-1 with Tom and Pereira as more advanced in midfield leave space for Sunderland to attack.

100% agree with this. Tom is good but lets not kid ourselves, he shines the most against lesser opposition. He is not good enough to start in the prem but is a very good impact sub to play balls for when we bring on pacey players in the last 10-15

Tom is not good enough to start in the Prem ?
In your opinion that is, I have a completely different opinion....
Please add an IMO when spouting like that

IMO he isn't , and the stats back it up.

73 appearences in the prem, 3 goals 2 assists. are you really sitting there telling me thats prem quality? come on....

Anguissa played as a CDM and has more assists than him ( 3 ) in 14 less games in the prem

Pereira has 21 appearences for us and 2 goals , 5 assists ....

Reed has 20 appearences 1 goal 2 assists..

Palhinha has the same amout of goals as him as a CDM ....




So how on earth is Tom prem level ?

Yeah I'm telling you he's quality stat boy 100%

Tell me Sammy what was your opinion on Tim Ream continuing on at the end of last season? I'm curious to know

Comparing a CB to an attacking midfielder? weird one.

Lets just compare a left back to a striker then for game stats if thats how your brain works on merit on who should start ?

[Sting of the North]

Again, if you believe goals and assists are the only existing attacking stats (and that being abl to pass the ball is unimportant), then I guess there is no argument

I believe there are other things to a game of football, but to each their own.

[Sammyffc]

Again, if you believe goals and assists are the only existing attacking stats (and that being abl to pass the ball is unimportant), then I guess there is no argument

I believe there are other things to a game of football, but to each their own.

I don't believe that though in a general sense, but for his position and an expert in his position i absolutely do. His job is to create chances and hopefully score, he does neither. In fact, in 73 games he has only created 8 big chances.  There is a reason he was dropped by Marco, and its pretty obvious why.

[Sting of the North]

I agree that there is a reason (for TC not playing more), probably more than one. I also think the playing profile reason is pretty obvious, but it is definitely not what you think it is (that TC is not good enough in creating chances).

For his position? What does that even mean? How many times has he actually played as a number 10 in the PL in a team that is not constantly on the back foot (one of many reasons your "stats" are mainly useless). He has many times played deeper, to start with, sometimes out wide. Our two first seasons in the PL with TC we were mainly useless, especially in an attacking sense.

But since it seem to totally elude you, TC:s most important contributions were never goals and assists, those were a bonus. His ball retention and passing skills that keeps play ticking has always been his biggest strength for us. In that department he is miles ahead of everyone else in our team, except maybe Ream and Willian (but they play very different positions). Those skills can bu used to attack by shifting the ball with intelligence. They can also be used to defend by keeping the ball within the team and at the same time not putting teammates under pressure. He has shown more than once that he can use those skills effectively in the PL as well. If that has escaped you I just think that we see football as very different games and I am afraid we will never understand each other.

[Sammyffc]

I agree that there is a reason (for TC not playing more), probably more than one. I also think the playing profile reason is pretty obvious, but it is definitely not what you think it is (that TC is not good enough in creating chances).

For his position? What does that even mean? How many times has he actually played as a number 10 in the PL in a team that is not constantly on the back foot (one of many reasons your "stats" are mainly useless). He has many times played deeper, to start with, sometimes out wide. Our two first seasons in the PL with TC we were mainly useless, especially in an attacking sense.

But since it seem to totally elude you, TC:s most important contributions were never goals and assists, those were a bonus. His ball retention and passing skills that keeps play ticking has always been his biggest strength for us. In that department he is miles ahead of everyone else in our team, except maybe Ream and Willian (but they play very different positions). Those skills can bu used to attack by shifting the ball with intelligence. They can also be used to defend by keeping the ball within the team and at the same time not putting teammates under pressure. He has shown more than once that he can use those skills effectively in the PL as well. If that has escaped you I just think that we see football as very different games and I am afraid we will never understand each other.

I totally understand your point of view, however as you said i believe we just don't align. My main point is that people are saying he should be starting for us, that is all i am going against. If the question was should we bring him on with 20 minutes to go to hold the ball up then sure, do it. However i am not seeing where or how he starts for us in the premier league? over reed who runs his socks off, palhinha who is one of the best CDMs in the league and Pereira who has been a revelation for us and can pin a pass on either feet to a dime

[Sting of the North]

I agree that there is a reason (for TC not playing more), probably more than one. I also think the playing profile reason is pretty obvious, but it is definitely not what you think it is (that TC is not good enough in creating chances).

For his position? What does that even mean? How many times has he actually played as a number 10 in the PL in a team that is not constantly on the back foot (one of many reasons your "stats" are mainly useless). He has many times played deeper, to start with, sometimes out wide. Our two first seasons in the PL with TC we were mainly useless, especially in an attacking sense.

But since it seem to totally elude you, TC:s most important contributions were never goals and assists, those were a bonus. His ball retention and passing skills that keeps play ticking has always been his biggest strength for us. In that department he is miles ahead of everyone else in our team, except maybe Ream and Willian (but they play very different positions). Those skills can bu used to attack by shifting the ball with intelligence. They can also be used to defend by keeping the ball within the team and at the same time not putting teammates under pressure. He has shown more than once that he can use those skills effectively in the PL as well. If that has escaped you I just think that we see football as very different games and I am afraid we will never understand each other.

I totally understand your point of view, however as you said i believe we just don't align. My main point is that people are saying he should be starting for us, that is all i am going against. If the question was should we bring him on with 20 minutes to go to hold the ball up then sure, do it. However i am not seeing where or how he starts for us in the premier league? over reed who runs his socks off, palhinha who is one of the best CDMs in the league and Pereira who has been a revelation for us and can pin a pass on either feet to a dime

Over Reed against teams where we could expect to have our fair share of the ball (it even worked very well against Man U's world class midfield, best control we have had all season). But clearly either Silva values our high press more than having control, or there is something in the discussion about TC's ability to regluarly play big minutes. TC is better in a slightly deeper position in my opinion. Should be interesting to see us play with Lukic now, if he is as good as we hope, since finally we may have someone with passing skills further back in midfield.

[Chutney]

Again, if you believe goals and assists are the only existing attacking stats (and that being abl to pass the ball is unimportant), then I guess there is no argument

I believe there are other things to a game of football, but to each their own.

Completely correct, but even the stats supoort him being good enough at this level, per 90 in the prem, Cairney has the most forward passes and (non set piece) chances created out of all our central midfielders....

[filham]

I think at the moment Tom Cairney is my favourite Fulham player, that doesn't mean he is the best but the one I enjoy watching the most and I wish we could see more of him.
However I  understand why he does not start every game, we do need a physical presence in midfield that is better provided by others.

It occurs to me that Tom may decide to move on at the end of the season to a Championship club where he will get more games.  Us fans should therefore appreciate in every minute we have left of watching Tom because he is pure class and we may never see his likes again.

I intend to treasure every moment of watching him and hope he is given at least 30 minutes in each remaining match.

[colinwhite]

Tc is clearly a lot better than Harrison Reed on the ball . Without the ball ,in press and winning back the ball Reed is by far the better ,and he also covers a lot more ground than Tom. Both players have deficiencies but it seems to me that Marco chooses to go with HR as he gives us better defensive balance. With Tc in that role we are more open when the opposition has the ball.Simple.

[Twig]

I agree that there is a reason (for TC not playing more), probably more than one. I also think the playing profile reason is pretty obvious, but it is definitely not what you think it is (that TC is not good enough in creating chances).

For his position? What does that even mean? How many times has he actually played as a number 10 in the PL in a team that is not constantly on the back foot (one of many reasons your "stats" are mainly useless). He has many times played deeper, to start with, sometimes out wide. Our two first seasons in the PL with TC we were mainly useless, especially in an attacking sense.

But since it seem to totally elude you, TC:s most important contributions were never goals and assists, those were a bonus. His ball retention and passing skills that keeps play ticking has always been his biggest strength for us. In that department he is miles ahead of everyone else in our team, except maybe Ream and Willian (but they play very different positions). Those skills can bu used to attack by shifting the ball with intelligence. They can also be used to defend by keeping the ball within the team and at the same time not putting teammates under pressure. He has shown more than once that he can use those skills effectively in the PL as well. If that has escaped you I just think that we see football as very different games and I am afraid we will never understand each other.

I totally understand your point of view, however as you said i believe we just don't align. My main point is that people are saying he should be starting for us, that is all i am going against. If the question was should we bring him on with 20 minutes to go to hold the ball up then sure, do it. However i am not seeing where or how he starts for us in the premier league? over reed who runs his socks off, palhinha who is one of the best CDMs in the league and Pereira who has been a revelation for us and can pin a pass on either feet to a dime

Over Reed against teams where we could expect to have our fair share of the ball (it even worked very well against Man U's world class midfield, best control we have had all season). But clearly either Silva values our high press more than having control, or there is something in the discussion about TC's ability to regluarly play big minutes. TC is better in a slightly deeper position in my opinion. Should be interesting to see us play with Lukic now, if he is as good as we hope, since finally we may have someone with passing skills further back in midfield.

Sting I think you have made the salient points superbly in this thread. I fully agree with you.

[LittleErn]

This is in no way slagging Cairney off, he is a wonderful footballer and been a magnificent player for Fulham over many years.

However

He has weaknesses ...

Every human being has weaknesses and in life and sport generally 'would be opponents' seek to find out what they are.  Often the weakness is exagerrated by observers which is what has happened to e.g. Tim Ream.  Not so strangely Tom's strength - his left foot - becomes his weakness because his right leg is standing room only.  The same things were said about Johnny Haynes and how opponents could stifle him.  Some successes at stifling led to punters calling FFC a one man team.  Of course the observations appeared correct when the Maestro counter activity work but his evolved solution (how Haynes and the team overcame the tactics) deserved the same accolade but seldom got it, especially upon the next time FFC were caused to falter with Haynes playing.

Cairney has little to prove to anyone especially so during the Jokanovic era and that same guy plays even now.  I know people want to see him plant the ball in the net from the fringes of the penalty box but Tom knows how quickly shots are charged down from his favourite spots at this level of football.  The guy has a really good football brain.

You're missing my main point which is not his one footed ness but the fact that when he playes we are more open as his defensive qualities are poor.  It's a question of team balance and finding the best way to use Tom and his skills are key.  My view is his 20 minute cameo in games is just about perfect.   

As for Johnny Haynes, I did watch him but it was after his car crash so I never saw the great man at his best, indeed towards the end of his career he sometimes held Fulham back. ( duck to avoid incoming abuse).

Well I was privileged to have watched the Maestro in every home game he played from 1954 to 1964 plus a few away matches and a number of internationals. I can tell you that, good as Cairney is, he is not in the same class as Haynes. JH could make a killer pass "out of the blue" with either foot and from anywhere on the pitch. With TC I often find myself willing him to make that pass long before he does. Not with JH - you never saw it coming and nor did the opponents. When JH was on the ball and moving it forward, the opposing defenders would be back tracking furiously, looking over their shoulders to see where they had left a space. He may have had a period when he was "stifled" but he was rarely if ever dispossessed. Defensively he was adequate, though that was a slight weakness, but the game was different then and defending was left to defenders in the main.

[TC's Sporran]

"Pereira who has been a revelation for us and can pin a pass on either feet to a dime"

hahahaha. i commented on a recent match thread his play had been scruffy and untidy. his last 3 passes had gone to the opposition. yes 3 on the trot.

and then another poster said he hadnt put a foot wrong all game.    people do see different things.