Merged all things Ivan Toney

[Beamer]

If we accept that Toney has a gambling addiction then I believe there is another issue to take into account. We are told that his betting covers a great range of betting mediums so his ability to bet is undiminished by not being allowed to wager on football let alone games he was involved in or had knowledge of facts not in the public domain.
He knowingly broke the rules over a long period and that must be compared to insider dealings in other areas.
On this basis, whilst I feel sorry for him on a personal level having an addiction, his punishment simply isn't enough for either the crime or as a deterrent to others. 

[Eton White]

Honest question.

Given this precedence. If you fail a drugs test, you might as well be a full on coaciane addict as you'll get off easier than if you made a stupid mistake once?

The main reason for drug testing in sport is to prevent the taking of performance enhancing drugs.

I'm not an expert, but I would imagine the penalty for deliberately taking something like anabolic steroids or some other drug that gives you an advantage over your competitors would be far greater than if you were found to have taken recreational drugs at a party. Both punishments would be quite high though as I'm sure they would want to send a message to young fans not to copy their role models, particularly as it's breaking the law, unlike gambling.

[Rupert]

In response to those who are making light of the addiction claims, when I trained as a nurse, many, many years ago, we had a group of recovering addicts come in and talk to us. Their definition of addiction, and the problems it caused, was somewhat surprising to me at the time.

If you have to have an alcoholic drink every day, just one and not enough to get squiffy, but you can not go without that single drink, then you are an addict. Even if it causes no financial or relationship or employment difficulties, it is a problem, because if you do not have that single drink, you can not fully function.

Now, I do not know much about Toney, and for the record I would have thought a longer ban would have been imposed, but if he is in the position that he has to bet, whether it is a pound a day, each way on a horse race, or a thousand pounds every hour on multiple sports, then it is a problem for him. I have been lucky enough to not suffer from any addiction in my life (Alcohol? Take it or leave it, especially as it has got more expensive. Betting? 25p each way on Red Rum to win the Grand National back in the 1970's, my sole bet ever, I won and am thus up on the bookies), so I do not see myself as being in a particularly strong place to look down on others who do suffer from this.
As others have said, why risk his lifestyle for a few bets? Well, if he has no control, he will risk it, and probably despise his own weakness while he is doing it.

A modicum of human compassion might not go amiss at times. Just saying.

[Carborundum]

If you can't start work without a coffee, then, like me, you are an addict of a powerful mood-altering substance.  With over 2,000 posts to the message board I'm likely addicted to social media.  To draw the line between addicts and non-addicts seems unhelpful.  Addicts who don't cause damage or harm to others are one thing. 

Addicts who cheat other bettors through inside knowledge, get fighting drunk or steal to fund their addiction are better viewed through the lens of criminality.  An elderly relative of mine was defrauded by someone taking a down payment for something they had seemingly no intention of providing with the money, which got spent on their particular addiction.  At which point their addiction is not the point. Just retribution is required.

A succession of revelations about Mr Toney's character have at least cleared up one of the premier league's mysteries.  How can someone that good at football wind up at Brentford? 

Give me Mitrovic's heat-of-the-moment passion overspill over him any day.

[Lighthouse]

I wonder if Toney played for Crystal Palace or Reading or Rochdale, if there would be quite so much angst on here about his punishment.

It seems to me that the FA must be watching on with glee as we rant and rave at this sort of thing.

Should Mitrovic be banned for eight games?
Harsh, scream FFC fans, he's got away with murder proclaim Brentford fans.

Should Toney be banned until January?
Draconian, scream Brentford fans, oh the FA are going soft, we shout back.

And all the time the BIG clubs get away with murder, because we, supporters of the smaller clubs, are too busy ripping each other to shreds instead of uniting against the corruption that runs through the sport and turns an already uphill struggle (winning the league) into an impossible task.

Except it has nothing to do with local rivalry. But has lots to do with a player who was part of the England squad and so is treated differently than a Croatian. There is corruption and all the ruling bodies have much to answer for. As fans and supporters we have no control at all. Even if no football fan ever turned up to a match, the money from tv etc would still be worth the back handers and the biased decisions. So if Toney played for Wigan I would still hold the same opinion personally. Hell if he played for Fulham I would still hold the same opinion. Cheating over a long period and knowingly breaking the laws and rules is hard to forgive. A club is hammered for breaking financial rules. Except for the big clubs like Man City.

Croatian ?

I didn't have room to list every possible Nationality in the World. I should have said Outer Mongolian to make it clearer.

[RaySmith]

If you can't start work without a coffee, then, like me, you are an addict of a powerful mood-altering substance.  With over 2,000 posts to the message board I'm likely addicted to social media.  To draw the line between addicts and non-addicts seems unhelpful.  Addicts who don't cause damage or harm to others are one thing. 

Addicts who cheat other bettors through inside knowledge, get fighting drunk or steal to fund their addiction are better viewed through the lens of criminality.  An elderly relative of mine was defrauded by someone taking a down payment for something they had seemingly no intention of providing with the money, which got spent on their particular addiction.  At which point their addiction is not the point. Just retribution is required.

A succession of revelations about Mr Toney's character have at least cleared up one of the premier league's mysteries.  How can someone that good at football wind up at Brentford? 

Give me Mitrovic's heat-of-the-moment passion overspill over him any day.

Caffeine is one performance enhancing drug which is allowed - or you at least have to take an impossible amount to be over the limit.

I myself take strong caffeine energy gels, for the cycling and running events I do, as well as drinking a lot of coffee. I rely on them to get me through tough events.

I suppose I am addicted to caffeine, but regard this as a very mild addiction, not harmful to me, pretty easy to overcome if I had to.
Unlike other addictions like gambling, alcohol or drugs, which usually have serious consequences for the addict and society.
I suppose I'm also addicted to doing sport - again this is mainly a positive thing. Supporting Fulham, likewise (maybe not always that positive!)


Going to your main point - it is important to know if someone is an addict, if that  causes/fuels their criminality, because, nothing to do with being soft on crime, but finding out the reasons behind behaviour is the best way to prevent it in future.
Locking more and more people up for ever longer sentences, as we do here, has been proven to be ineffective  for stopping crime, because he same people keep coming back.

Also, education and training inside has been really cut back, as have skilled staff, with many low paid private staff now, without the experience to do the  job properly.
If you give someone the chance of getting a decent job (and deal with their mental -health/addiction problems - which  most prisoners  seem to have, apparently) -
when they leave prison, this is far more effective in stopping them  commit more crimes, than locking them up for ever longer periods, then throwing them out with no way to earn a living - so they go back to what they know, and back to their addictions, which leads to crime to gain money to feed these addictions, because nothing has been done to help with any mental health problems.
This isn't being soft, but pragmatic.

So, if you treat Toney for the causes of his offending - obviously not done for financial profit, with his wealth - he probably loses money- as Paul Merson testifies in his book;
 then maybe you can get him to stop his offending, and he can return as a useful player with England potential.
 
If you ban him for a long time, or lock him up, then he likely will never  return to top playing form, and thus be a loss to the the game - club and national side.
But he is still being punished for his crimes with the ban he's got, and an obligation to get treatment for his underlying problems.

[Nick Bateman]

My problem with Toney as opposed to say a Merson or Keith Gillespie (who lost all his money by gambling) is Toney was a successful better using inside information. That, to me, is not gambling.

Gambling is more impulsive and prone to luck. Insider dealing is narrowing the odds in one's favour as Toney was doing. It is actually a wise thing to, if one has no morals, do so long as one does not get caught.

Again, Toney lied several times to cover his deception and hid evidence to escape further detection and punishment. The FA seemed also to take an exorbitantly prolonged amount of time to charge him which when seen in other misdemeanors is designed to allow the offence to be less fresh in people's minds' so as to diminish the outcome. The media have instantly jumped to Toney's defence with the likes of Oliver Holt writing a piece almsot making Toney the victim.

Also, his crimes occured when he wasn't that well paid at Wigan and playing in the reserves of non-Saudi funded Newcastle so it seemed a financial incentive rather than an uncontrollable addiction. As far as I know, he has not been made to attend any gambling rehabs courses and is still betting actively today.

The authorities have all the bets on record, if they released them all we could fully judge whether he was this poor-stricken 'gambler' or a shrewd but greed-driven individual taking advantage of security gaps in our sport, cheating his own club and the fans he owes dearly.

[Blawarmy]

My problem with Toney as opposed to say a Merson or Keith Gillespie (who lost all his money by gambling) is Toney was a successful better using inside information. That, to me, is not gambling.

Gambling is more impulsive and prone to luck. Insider dealing is narrowing the odds in one's favour as Toney was doing. It is actually a wise thing to, if one has no morals, do so long as one does not get caught.

Again, Toney lied several times to cover his deception and hid evidence to escape further detection and punishment. The FA seemed also to take an exorbitantly prolonged amount of time to charge him which when seen in other misdemeanors is designed to allow the offence to be less fresh in people's minds' so as to diminish the outcome. The media have instantly jumped to Toney's defence with the likes of Oliver Holt writing a piece almsot making Toney the victim.

Also, his crimes occured when he wasn't that well paid at Wigan and playing in the reserves of non-Saudi funded Newcastle so it seemed a financial incentive rather than an uncontrollable addiction. As far as I know, he has not been made to attend any gambling rehabs courses and is still betting actively today.

The authorities have all the bets on record, if they released them all we could fully judge whether he was this poor-stricken 'gambler' or a shrewd but greed-driven individual taking advantage of security gaps in our sport, cheating his own club and the fans he owes dearly.

Should have been suspended immediately like they do in the US. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/max-alves-colorado-rapids-mls-29957965.amp

[toshes mate]

Is caffeine addictive?  In a way it is habit forming like tobacco but is there real cold turkey in giving it up? With tobacco I have always believed the first attempt to give up is the hardest because you do NOT know what is ahead of you - it is a personal and individual experience no one else will exactly share.  But once you have done it, it gets easier and less daunting and' in essence, the substance can be taken or left at will  (the casual addict) meaning the substance is no longer truly addictive.

I have never been addicted to gambling and it is not the same as substance abuse. Gambling addiction seems to me to be masking something else, an inadequacy or seeking attention of some kind and that is why is such a different experience for each individual - but it is the individual is the one who MUST give it up just like all other habits even biting nails!     

[toshes mate]

I will repeat what I said earlier on.

Toney has cheated on all those others in football who'd love a casual bet but know better than even think about doing it because it is their bread and butter and gambling can be habit forming. 

If you want to sympathise with addicts then at least throw your love where it'll bear fruit for the individuals concerned and not after someone who was recently laughing in your faces whilst breaking his contract that earns him millions more than you will ever see.

Toney should be banned for life and forgotten and anything less is criminal activity by those responsible for maintining high standards in sport.

[alfie]

Is caffeine addictive?  In a way it is habit forming like tobacco but is there real cold turkey in giving it up? With tobacco I have always believed the first attempt to give up is the hardest because you do NOT know what is ahead of you - it is a personal and individual experience no one else will exactly share.  But once you have done it, it gets easier and less daunting and' in essence, the substance can be taken or left at will  (the casual addict) meaning the substance is no longer truly addictive.

I have never been addicted to gambling and it is not the same as substance abuse. Gambling addiction seems to me to be masking something else, an inadequacy or seeking attention of some kind and that is why is such a different experience for each individual - but it is the individual is the one who MUST give it up just like all other habits even biting nails!     

You are most definitely correct with regards giving up smoking, took me several attempts and failed, it was illness that finally put me in a position where I just had to give it up. The hardest part was in the pub having a pint the force to have a fag, was almost overwhelming, but I stuck with it and was the best decision I have made, 30 years now, but the downside is I now have developed COPD, all because of smoking.

[TheRealMB]

Regardless of reason, for what it's worth this is a lifetime ban in many American sports.  I understand the addiction but the punishment is not forgiven due to the underlying addiction.  His actions put the integrity of the game at risk and I actually think the punishment is pretty light.