Justifiable Outrage

[alfie]

Ray has summed it up very nicely, and I honestly think this is something that goes back to when Chairman Mo proposed the new Dairy Crest site for a new stadium.

I am old Fulham (rapidly approaching very old Fulham) fifty five years at the Cottage, man and boy. When Dairy Crest was suggested I understood we had a choice. Abandon the Cottage and become a bigger club (say West Ham or even start to rival Chelsea size) and presumably become virtually permanent members of the top flight, since even relegation would be followed by a swift return to the top. Or, go back to the Cottage and accept our time in the Premier League was limited.

I, personally, would have been sad to see the Cottage go, but would have swallowed it in exchange for the greater security a larger ground would have supplied. It matched Mo's ambitions for the club, he would have made a mint out of selling the ground, a lot of 5hat would have been further invested, and who knows where we might have got to.

Might have, could have, did not. It is all in the past, and I am happy to support a club which is still a Premier League minnow with a limited shelf life.

Enter the Khans. Their solution to the small size of the ground is to maximise income by building a super stand with lots of income generating opportunities, when finished, and putting the prices up. Again, the choice. Do you want a more sustainable club in the top flight? The bigger stadium plan is gone, we are staying at the Cottage. So we put prices up. As many have said, it is pricing fans out of going. As I said in a previous post, if those fans are content to not buy top quality players and face a relegation struggle every season, with no real chance of a swift return if we go down, then their stance is perfectly reasonable. However, if they do want top players and do want a sustained presence amongst the elite, then where else is the money going to come from?

I will emphasise, I am not taking the moral high ground, that you can not demand top players and low admission prices. I am genuinely interested to know how those who see this as an outrage would fund our survival, or would they gladly accept relegation and a difficult few seasons rebuilding for a shortish return? I do not see lack of ambition as a problem, but as our current government has amply demonstrated, you can not deliver on ambitious projects without properly funding them. So those who want low prices and high performance may need to offer alternative strategies.

Where was the dairy crest site? That option passed me by at the time.

I think re the spend and performance I'd simply say that it's about spending more wisely and intelligently then expensively.

Brighton and Brentford are proof it can be done even today and we've even seen it in the season we came 7th, achieved multiple top ten finishes and got to the europa league final.

Leadership, team spirit, working hard for one another and having a clear purpose everyone's bought into counts for so much more in these situations, they always have.

Tech should be seen, and finance, as an enabler, but many a wealthy person have defaulted to making dim decisions because they've got wealth instead of keeping a keen eye to things and maintaining that intellectual interest and due diligence.

There are enough players valued at reasonable prices at the top clubs and in the top European league's that you can still succeed without breaking the bank.

Chelsea have thrown 2billion into their team and are below us..

Build a proper vision and that's as eye catching as most money. Even Ronaldo the 2nd claimed he went to Saudi with an intention to build a legacy and build out the league there, money almost definitely played a part, but the recent exodus would suggest it was valid and has worked.

Up behind White City tube station (at least I think that's it)

[copthornemike]

Unless we have a good year from player transfers am I correct in believing the club runs at a loss? This requires the owner to annually add funds to the club, which is then thankfully converted to shares so the club does not owe debt interest to outside lenders.
Would be interesting for a breakdown on a typical match day income.
The £3K ST in the Riverside is in one sense a red herring. It is for the relatively well off supporter and to a degree subsidises' 'normal ST holders' and the away EPL supporters who pay £30. My Hammersmith ST averages out at just over £27.37 per EPL match, so a world away from £3K.

Until the new stand is finished the Cottage we all treasure does not earn any revenue outside match days. It will then be up to the CEO types then to increase added revenue from this source.

So what is the solution? I hate the disgusting toilets in the Hammersmith end. I hate the introduction of pricing for under 5's, surely the club's future revenue and guarantees the guardian(s) support to boot.
But if we want EPL football to see the likes of Man City, Liverpool, Man Utd & Arsenal at the Cottage whilst offering top footballers like Palhinha et Al, not to forget the Academy, I can see where the club is coming from.
They just have to be careful not to kill the golden goose.

[cookieg]

Ray has summed it up very nicely, and I honestly think this is something that goes back to when Chairman Mo proposed the new Dairy Crest site for a new stadium.

I am old Fulham (rapidly approaching very old Fulham) fifty five years at the Cottage, man and boy. When Dairy Crest was suggested I understood we had a choice. Abandon the Cottage and become a bigger club (say West Ham or even start to rival Chelsea size) and presumably become virtually permanent members of the top flight, since even relegation would be followed by a swift return to the top. Or, go back to the Cottage and accept our time in the Premier League was limited.

I, personally, would have been sad to see the Cottage go, but would have swallowed it in exchange for the greater security a larger ground would have supplied. It matched Mo's ambitions for the club, he would have made a mint out of selling the ground, a lot of 5hat would have been further invested, and who knows where we might have got to.

Might have, could have, did not. It is all in the past, and I am happy to support a club which is still a Premier League minnow with a limited shelf life.

Enter the Khans. Their solution to the small size of the ground is to maximise income by building a super stand with lots of income generating opportunities, when finished, and putting the prices up. Again, the choice. Do you want a more sustainable club in the top flight? The bigger stadium plan is gone, we are staying at the Cottage. So we put prices up. As many have said, it is pricing fans out of going. As I said in a previous post, if those fans are content to not buy top quality players and face a relegation struggle every season, with no real chance of a swift return if we go down, then their stance is perfectly reasonable. However, if they do want top players and do want a sustained presence amongst the elite, then where else is the money going to come from?

I will emphasise, I am not taking the moral high ground, that you can not demand top players and low admission prices. I am genuinely interested to know how those who see this as an outrage would fund our survival, or would they gladly accept relegation and a difficult few seasons rebuilding for a shortish return? I do not see lack of ambition as a problem, but as our current government has amply demonstrated, you can not deliver on ambitious projects without properly funding them. So those who want low prices and high performance may need to offer alternative strategies.

Where was the dairy crest site? That option passed me by at the time.

I think re the spend and performance I'd simply say that it's about spending more wisely and intelligently then expensively.

Brighton and Brentford are proof it can be done even today and we've even seen it in the season we came 7th, achieved multiple top ten finishes and got to the europa league final.

Leadership, team spirit, working hard for one another and having a clear purpose everyone's bought into counts for so much more in these situations, they always have.

Tech should be seen, and finance, as an enabler, but many a wealthy person have defaulted to making dim decisions because they've got wealth instead of keeping a keen eye to things and maintaining that intellectual interest and due diligence.

There are enough players valued at reasonable prices at the top clubs and in the top European league's that you can still succeed without breaking the bank.

Chelsea have thrown 2billion into their team and are below us..

Build a proper vision and that's as eye catching as most money. Even Ronaldo the 2nd claimed he went to Saudi with an intention to build a legacy and build out the league there, money almost definitely played a part, but the recent exodus would suggest it was valid and has worked.

Up behind White City tube station (at least I think that's it)

And I bet a ground share with QPArse would have been in the offing as well.

[alfie]

Ray has summed it up very nicely, and I honestly think this is something that goes back to when Chairman Mo proposed the new Dairy Crest site for a new stadium.

I am old Fulham (rapidly approaching very old Fulham) fifty five years at the Cottage, man and boy. When Dairy Crest was suggested I understood we had a choice. Abandon the Cottage and become a bigger club (say West Ham or even start to rival Chelsea size) and presumably become virtually permanent members of the top flight, since even relegation would be followed by a swift return to the top. Or, go back to the Cottage and accept our time in the Premier League was limited.

I, personally, would have been sad to see the Cottage go, but would have swallowed it in exchange for the greater security a larger ground would have supplied. It matched Mo's ambitions for the club, he would have made a mint out of selling the ground, a lot of 5hat would have been further invested, and who knows where we might have got to.

Might have, could have, did not. It is all in the past, and I am happy to support a club which is still a Premier League minnow with a limited shelf life.

Enter the Khans. Their solution to the small size of the ground is to maximise income by building a super stand with lots of income generating opportunities, when finished, and putting the prices up. Again, the choice. Do you want a more sustainable club in the top flight? The bigger stadium plan is gone, we are staying at the Cottage. So we put prices up. As many have said, it is pricing fans out of going. As I said in a previous post, if those fans are content to not buy top quality players and face a relegation struggle every season, with no real chance of a swift return if we go down, then their stance is perfectly reasonable. However, if they do want top players and do want a sustained presence amongst the elite, then where else is the money going to come from?

I will emphasise, I am not taking the moral high ground, that you can not demand top players and low admission prices. I am genuinely interested to know how those who see this as an outrage would fund our survival, or would they gladly accept relegation and a difficult few seasons rebuilding for a shortish return? I do not see lack of ambition as a problem, but as our current government has amply demonstrated, you can not deliver on ambitious projects without properly funding them. So those who want low prices and high performance may need to offer alternative strategies.

Where was the dairy crest site? That option passed me by at the time.

I think re the spend and performance I'd simply say that it's about spending more wisely and intelligently then expensively.

Brighton and Brentford are proof it can be done even today and we've even seen it in the season we came 7th, achieved multiple top ten finishes and got to the europa league final.

Leadership, team spirit, working hard for one another and having a clear purpose everyone's bought into counts for so much more in these situations, they always have.

Tech should be seen, and finance, as an enabler, but many a wealthy person have defaulted to making dim decisions because they've got wealth instead of keeping a keen eye to things and maintaining that intellectual interest and due diligence.

There are enough players valued at reasonable prices at the top clubs and in the top European league's that you can still succeed without breaking the bank.

Chelsea have thrown 2billion into their team and are below us..

Build a proper vision and that's as eye catching as most money. Even Ronaldo the 2nd claimed he went to Saudi with an intention to build a legacy and build out the league there, money almost definitely played a part, but the recent exodus would suggest it was valid and has worked.

Up behind White City tube station (at least I think that's it)

And I bet a ground share with QPArse would have been in the offing as well.

I believe that was his intention,

[Stevieboy]

This has been an ongoing discussion on here with many if not most in agreement that it is slightly abhorrent.

Noone begrudge a club upping ticket prices from time to time, but the club went to another level with its more recent prices and has angered a fair few and also priced out a number of long term supporters.

£3k for a season ticket is the highest price in the league, above all of the big clubs without exception.

£100 tickets for the Riverside stand which is far from perfect as a stand is also among the highest in the league and there's no or little difference to it changing if we play even the worst teams in the league.

Some suggest it is because of the stand and recouping costs, but the amount the stand costs, including the price of the tickets for the Riverside and the increased amount means even when you do the maths its excessive and an aggressive timeframe to recoup costs and not necessary.

The fulham supporters Trust did a survey of fulham fans a while back citing findings that across the board suggested fans were unhappy and the pricing would effect their attendance to games, but nothing has seemingly come of it which suggests the club doesn't really care enough or hasn't been pressured enough to care.

There was initial uproar and the press did cover it but the club posted a video interview with shahid saying the sentence 'We want the club to be sustainable and competitive' as a justification and everyone got placated.

I don't think the prices are justified even then though to be honest. Gate receipts make very little difference to the overall running costs of a club as most money comes from merchandising, TV and sponsorship agreements.

Sadly though the backdrop narrative from the club has been record season ticket sales, waiting lists and sold out games (though how true those are is anyone's guess, especially with a half opened stand).

I'm one of those increasingly disenchanted with fulham as a club under the current ownership but can't stop myself from supporting the team, even if it's seeing them less live. It's not an affordability question though for me, it's much more a principle and value for money thing.

As many have said on here the cost for a dad and two children is, when in particular put against the average UK and London wage, is simply prohibitive.

It for me also showed significantly with the drop off of fans in our preseason games. Where we used to have full or almost full attendances to pre season games, last pre season we had an empty Riverside, putney ends and 2/3rds (or what seemed like it) of the Hammersmith end full and then the JH stand full. It's a significant sign for me.

The thing is tourists will pay it and, the club did a survey of their own years ago which asked the average fan their salary and it averaged out as higher than most.. so they probably think they're well within their right and target range for the catchment area.

I do know people who have started to go who aren't fulham fans because they can, but they don't care about the club, they just want to see Premier league football.

A genuine concern of mine is if things were to go wrong at the club to the degree that the club got sold and went down a couple of league's (which hopefully won't happen but has happened to many teams over the years), we would struggle to rebuild as the core supporter base just wouldn't be there and those who've replaced them wouldn't care enough to attend.

All in all its crass commercialism over anything beyond that, which given fulham has for so long been that friendly family club, is a shame.

This has been an ongoing discussion on here with many if not most in agreement that it is slightly abhorrent.

Noone begrudge a club upping ticket prices from time to time, but the club went to another level with its more recent prices and has angered a fair few and also priced out a number of long term supporters.

£3k for a season ticket is the highest price in the league, above all of the big clubs without exception.

£100 tickets for the Riverside stand which is far from perfect as a stand is also among the highest in the league and there's no or little difference to it changing if we play even the worst teams in the league.

Some suggest it is because of the stand and recouping costs, but the amount the stand costs, including the price of the tickets for the Riverside and the increased amount means even when you do the maths its excessive and an aggressive timeframe to recoup costs and not necessary.

The fulham supporters Trust did a survey of fulham fans a while back citing findings that across the board suggested fans were unhappy and the pricing would effect their attendance to games, but nothing has seemingly come of it which suggests the club doesn't really care enough or hasn't been pressured enough to care.

There was initial uproar and the press did cover it but the club posted a video interview with shahid saying the sentence 'We want the club to be sustainable and competitive' as a justification and everyone got placated.

I don't think the prices are justified even then though to be honest. Gate receipts make very little difference to the overall running costs of a club as most money comes from merchandising, TV and sponsorship agreements.

Sadly though the backdrop narrative from the club has been record season ticket sales, waiting lists and sold out games (though how true those are is anyone's guess, especially with a half opened stand).

I'm one of those increasingly disenchanted with fulham as a club under the current ownership but can't stop myself from supporting the team, even if it's seeing them less live. It's not an affordability question though for me, it's much more a principle and value for money thing.

As many have said on here the cost for a dad and two children is, when in particular put against the average UK and London wage, is simply prohibitive.

It for me also showed significantly with the drop off of fans in our preseason games. Where we used to have full or almost full attendances to pre season games, last pre season we had an empty Riverside, putney ends and 2/3rds (or what seemed like it) of the Hammersmith end full and then the JH stand full. It's a significant sign for me.

The thing is tourists will pay it and, the club did a survey of their own years ago which asked the average fan their salary and it averaged out as higher than most.. so they probably think they're well within their right and target range for the catchment area.

I do know people who have started to go who aren't fulham fans because they can, but they don't care about the club, they just want to see Premier league football.

A genuine concern of mine is if things were to go wrong at the club to the degree that the club got sold and went down a couple of league's (which hopefully won't happen but has happened to many teams over the years), we would struggle to rebuild as the core supporter base just wouldn't be there and those who've replaced them wouldn't care enough to attend.

All in all its crass commercialism over anything beyond that, which given fulham has for so long been that friendly family club, is a shame.

No point keep quoting the most expensive season tickets in The Riverside, many including myself would not pay a third of the price to sit there.
It us not designed for the 'average' fan, maybe with all the 3k tickets sold prices in other parts of the ground may not rise so much.
With @15k(open to correction)season tickets sold I can't see that there is that much of a problem?

[Rupert]

To answer a couple of the above, Dairy Crest was somewhere near to White City tube station, and the idea was the Ha-Has would vacate their palatial spread to be our tenants. I believe it was planned for 40K capacity and would have been available for concerts and similar to boost income. It was part of the "Manchester United of the south" plan.

It was a rare case of a chairman being more ambitious than the supporters, and our demand to return to the Cottage marked a trimming of the sails, as well as the sale of Saha to pay for it.

[Staffs White]

Does anyone know how many tickets the club has for sale on an individual match by match basis.

I may be wildly out with my assumptions below but I'm not convinced the higher prices make that much difference over a season, happy to stand corrected if I'm missing the point.

If for example we have 5k tickets for open sale and they reduced match day prices across the board by £25 that's around £2.4m in lost revenue

Factor in that we would need to reduce ST prices as well so let's say 20k at £100 each that's another £2m, so a drop of £4.5m in total.

A significant sum don't get me wrong but is the bad feeling and negativity around the club the loss of long-standing support and potential new supporters worth such a small amount in the grand scheme of things.

Wasn't there was a report somewhere during covid that said gate receipts were only a nominal portion of most Premier League club's revenue., seems short sighted to me

[General]

This has been an ongoing discussion on here with many if not most in agreement that it is slightly abhorrent.

Noone begrudge a club upping ticket prices from time to time, but the club went to another level with its more recent prices and has angered a fair few and also priced out a number of long term supporters.

£3k for a season ticket is the highest price in the league, above all of the big clubs without exception.

£100 tickets for the Riverside stand which is far from perfect as a stand is also among the highest in the league and there's no or little difference to it changing if we play even the worst teams in the league.

Some suggest it is because of the stand and recouping costs, but the amount the stand costs, including the price of the tickets for the Riverside and the increased amount means even when you do the maths its excessive and an aggressive timeframe to recoup costs and not necessary.

The fulham supporters Trust did a survey of fulham fans a while back citing findings that across the board suggested fans were unhappy and the pricing would effect their attendance to games, but nothing has seemingly come of it which suggests the club doesn't really care enough or hasn't been pressured enough to care.

There was initial uproar and the press did cover it but the club posted a video interview with shahid saying the sentence 'We want the club to be sustainable and competitive' as a justification and everyone got placated.

I don't think the prices are justified even then though to be honest. Gate receipts make very little difference to the overall running costs of a club as most money comes from merchandising, TV and sponsorship agreements.

Sadly though the backdrop narrative from the club has been record season ticket sales, waiting lists and sold out games (though how true those are is anyone's guess, especially with a half opened stand).

I'm one of those increasingly disenchanted with fulham as a club under the current ownership but can't stop myself from supporting the team, even if it's seeing them less live. It's not an affordability question though for me, it's much more a principle and value for money thing.

As many have said on here the cost for a dad and two children is, when in particular put against the average UK and London wage, is simply prohibitive.

It for me also showed significantly with the drop off of fans in our preseason games. Where we used to have full or almost full attendances to pre season games, last pre season we had an empty Riverside, putney ends and 2/3rds (or what seemed like it) of the Hammersmith end full and then the JH stand full. It's a significant sign for me.

The thing is tourists will pay it and, the club did a survey of their own years ago which asked the average fan their salary and it averaged out as higher than most.. so they probably think they're well within their right and target range for the catchment area.

I do know people who have started to go who aren't fulham fans because they can, but they don't care about the club, they just want to see Premier league football.

A genuine concern of mine is if things were to go wrong at the club to the degree that the club got sold and went down a couple of league's (which hopefully won't happen but has happened to many teams over the years), we would struggle to rebuild as the core supporter base just wouldn't be there and those who've replaced them wouldn't care enough to attend.

All in all its crass commercialism over anything beyond that, which given fulham has for so long been that friendly family club, is a shame.

This has been an ongoing discussion on here with many if not most in agreement that it is slightly abhorrent.

Noone begrudge a club upping ticket prices from time to time, but the club went to another level with its more recent prices and has angered a fair few and also priced out a number of long term supporters.

£3k for a season ticket is the highest price in the league, above all of the big clubs without exception.

£100 tickets for the Riverside stand which is far from perfect as a stand is also among the highest in the league and there's no or little difference to it changing if we play even the worst teams in the league.

Some suggest it is because of the stand and recouping costs, but the amount the stand costs, including the price of the tickets for the Riverside and the increased amount means even when you do the maths its excessive and an aggressive timeframe to recoup costs and not necessary.

The fulham supporters Trust did a survey of fulham fans a while back citing findings that across the board suggested fans were unhappy and the pricing would effect their attendance to games, but nothing has seemingly come of it which suggests the club doesn't really care enough or hasn't been pressured enough to care.

There was initial uproar and the press did cover it but the club posted a video interview with shahid saying the sentence 'We want the club to be sustainable and competitive' as a justification and everyone got placated.

I don't think the prices are justified even then though to be honest. Gate receipts make very little difference to the overall running costs of a club as most money comes from merchandising, TV and sponsorship agreements.

Sadly though the backdrop narrative from the club has been record season ticket sales, waiting lists and sold out games (though how true those are is anyone's guess, especially with a half opened stand).

I'm one of those increasingly disenchanted with fulham as a club under the current ownership but can't stop myself from supporting the team, even if it's seeing them less live. It's not an affordability question though for me, it's much more a principle and value for money thing.

As many have said on here the cost for a dad and two children is, when in particular put against the average UK and London wage, is simply prohibitive.

It for me also showed significantly with the drop off of fans in our preseason games. Where we used to have full or almost full attendances to pre season games, last pre season we had an empty Riverside, putney ends and 2/3rds (or what seemed like it) of the Hammersmith end full and then the JH stand full. It's a significant sign for me.

The thing is tourists will pay it and, the club did a survey of their own years ago which asked the average fan their salary and it averaged out as higher than most.. so they probably think they're well within their right and target range for the catchment area.

I do know people who have started to go who aren't fulham fans because they can, but they don't care about the club, they just want to see Premier league football.

A genuine concern of mine is if things were to go wrong at the club to the degree that the club got sold and went down a couple of league's (which hopefully won't happen but has happened to many teams over the years), we would struggle to rebuild as the core supporter base just wouldn't be there and those who've replaced them wouldn't care enough to attend.

All in all its crass commercialism over anything beyond that, which given fulham has for so long been that friendly family club, is a shame.

No point keep quoting the most expensive season tickets in The Riverside, many including myself would not pay a third of the price to sit there.
It us not designed for the 'average' fan, maybe with all the 3k tickets sold prices in other parts of the ground may not rise so much.
With @15k(open to correction)season tickets sold I can't see that there is that much of a problem?

Even if you go down to £2050 which has been mentioned you're still paying over £100 a game if you are just going to and paying for PL home games.

It would be interesting to go through the actual breakdown of ticket prices and season tickets per price bracket, but I doubt the club would share that level of detail into their finances.

I've never not acknowledged the club haven't put the sales of season tickets at records, or that people aren't buying them, but then I don't know what the previous record is or what it's been bested by and how it's accounted for.

E.g. pure number of seats, or %age of available seats.

They never share exact figures from memory so it is slightly finger in the sky from us unless someone has an inside figure.

It would also simply make sense, with a new stand and increased capacity that records would be broken by default in my view so I tend to take those statements with a slight pinch of salt.

Would want to and need to see tickets and season ticket data from the past 15 years myself to see any sensible trends.

That takes into account the ups and downs and different levels of performance in different leagues (both as a team and also financially) as well as Craven Cottage before, during and after stadium build out.

I'd also aim to compare prices vs average living wage and ticket prices across the league and various other indicators of how fair the price was to see whether there was a correlation between fairness of price and buying tickets etc amongst other queries.

[H4usuallysitting]

Looks like it's quite easy to get ticket's

https://seatpick.com/fulham-fc-tickets

[St Eve]

Disgusting. When I was a kid it cost 3 shillings to see a game. Of course we didn't spend 25 million on a player or pay them 100,000 a week. We did have a super star maestro who was paid 100 quid a week.
Whether we like it or not sport is a business and we are a small club. We have never won a cup or even got into the champions league. We don't have a 60,000 capacity ground. We don't attract the best sponsors or advertisers. We don't sell volumes of merchandise. Revenue is harder for us. Always has been, which is why we are generally a selling club.

[alfie]

Disgusting. When I was a kid it cost 3 shillings to see a game. Of course we didn't spend 25 million on a player or pay them 100,000 a week. We did have a super star maestro who was paid 100 quid a week.
Whether we like it or not sport is a business and we are a small club. We have never won a cup or even got into the champions league. We don't have a 60,000 capacity ground. We don't attract the best sponsors or advertisers. We don't sell volumes of merchandise. Revenue is harder for us. Always has been, which is why we are generally a selling club.

Excuse me we won the world renowned "Intertoto cup".
🤣

[RaySmith]

Disgusting. When I was a kid it cost 3 shillings to see a game. Of course we didn't spend 25 million on a player or pay them 100,000 a week. We did have a super star maestro who was paid 100 quid a week.
Whether we like it or not sport is a business and we are a small club. We have never won a cup or even got into the champions league. We don't have a 60,000 capacity ground. We don't attract the best sponsors or advertisers. We don't sell volumes of merchandise. Revenue is harder for us. Always has been, which is why we are generally a selling club.

Excuse me we won the world renowned "Intertoto cup".
🤣

We won it one time

[Penfold]

Disgusting. When I was a kid it cost 3 shillings to see a game. Of course we didn't spend 25 million on a player or pay them 100,000 a week. We did have a super star maestro who was paid 100 quid a week.
Whether we like it or not sport is a business and we are a small club. We have never won a cup or even got into the champions league. We don't have a 60,000 capacity ground. We don't attract the best sponsors or advertisers. We don't sell volumes of merchandise. Revenue is harder for us. Always has been, which is why we are generally a selling club.

Excuse me we won the world renowned "Intertoto cup".
🤣

We won it one time

We won it one time, the Intertoto.......