Its incredible what Marco is doing BUT

[YankeeJim]

Well if i was being pedantic, I'd query the "learned quickly" part, given it took them 8-9 years to get things right, and most of the things they doing wrong were pretty obvious to fans from the outset

Yep. The fans know more than anyone in ownership. That's why clubs pay millions for coaches. Heck, they could just select a random fan and save the money.

[Whitestone]

Well if i was being pedantic, I'd query the "learned quickly" part, given it took them 8-9 years to get things right, and most of the things they doing wrong were pretty obvious to fans from the outset

Yep. The fans know more than anyone in ownership. That's why clubs pay millions for coaches. Heck, they could just select a random fan and save the money.

You've confused ownership with coaching. The two are light years apart from each other. TKs involvement has been far from perfect and lets be realistic it's bloody obvious that his main interest is his wrestling business.

[BarryP]

The Khans took over a club in decline and compounded the problems with their own mistakes but they have been building to today's club for quite some time.

Parkerball was boring and he proved he was not a Premier League quality manager but everyone involved helped build the core of a squad that when handed over to Marco was primed to thrive.

Marco obviously deserves a boat load of credit but so does everyone involved in the transfer process. For those complaining about Tony's involvement in wrestling, that involvement has not stopped Fulham from signing Andersen, Traore, ESR, Lukic, Bassey, Robinson, Tete, Leno, Iwobi, Palhinha, et al.

If you don't like having an owner associated with wrestling at Fulham fair enough you're entitled to your opinion. If you're claiming it interferes with Fulham's transfers I fully disagree.


Fulham went through some hard knocks but they what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and it's hard to argue that Fulham are not stronger for having the Khan's as owners.

[perry geyton]

Well if i was being pedantic, I'd query the "learned quickly" part, given it took them 8-9 years to get things right, and most of the things they doing wrong were pretty obvious to fans from the outset

Admit it

Well if i was being pedantic, I'd query the "learned quickly" part, given it took them 8-9 years to get things right, and most of the things they doing wrong were pretty obvious to fans from the outset

Yep. The fans know more than anyone in ownership. That's why clubs pay millions for coaches. Heck, they could just select a random fan and save the money.

Sorry but a random fan absolutely could have told you that TK's friend from college had no place deciding which players we should sign, or that TK wasn't doing himself any favours with his "I'll die at this club" Twitter rant. Among other absurd mistakes that were made in that era.

Very Very easy isn't it to critique after the fact, I'm sure if your so knowledged Man utd. Might currently be interested in hiring you

Give em a bell

[The Rational Fan]

Research says "the Average DOF comes from a football background, doesn't get the budget they need and then only gets 40% of transfers correct". TK got about 33% correct in 2018/19, greater than 40% correct before Marco and greater than 66% correct after Marco. TK doesn't come from football, always gets the required budget (shown to contribute around 76% of a DOFs success) and gets more than 50% of transfer correct, surely we should we should be grateful to TK.

What makes you say he "always gets the required budget"?
Think by most calculations we had room to spend a fair bit more under FFP recently.

I love to know what calculations you claim to have. I believe that any calculation that says we have "Room to Spend is either vastly exaggerating "Covid Losses" and/or vastly exaggerating "Academy Spending" at least for the period from 1st July 2013 until 30th June 2023.

Below is 1st July 2020 until 30th June 2023, as before 1st July 2020 we clearly had FFP no room and after 1st July 2023 we (the public) have no accounts.

Our Latest Latest Financial Account at Government House is 30th June 2023
Max Allowed FFP Loss for 2020-23: 81,000,000
Reported Loss for 2020-21: 93,490,000
Reported Loss for 2021-22: 57,627,000
Reported Loss for 2022-23: 26,046,000
Reported Loss for 2020-23: 177,163,000

Max Allowed FFP Loss = "Reported Loss" - "Academy Spending and other FFP Deductions" - "Covid Losses" + "FFP Room to Spend for 2020-23"
So "FFP Room to Spend for 2020-23"" = "Academy Spending and other FFP Deductions" + "Covid Losses" + "Max Allowed FFP Loss" - "Reported Loss"
"FFP Room to Spend for 2020-23" = "Academy Spending and other FFP Deductions" + "Covid Losses" + 81,000,000 - 177,163,000
So, "FFP Room to Spend for 2020-23" = "Academy Spending and other FFP Deductions" + "Covid Losses" - 96,163,000

Unless the Official Academy Spending exceeds 45,000,000 over three years and/or Official Covid Losses exceed 51,163,000
Then, "FFP Room to Spend for 2020-23" = 45,000,000 + 51,163,000 - 96,163,000 = 0 (i.e. there is no more money to spend).

[alfie]

Personally I see no point worrying about what went wrong 15 or so years ago, what's happening now is what's important.

[Drewry66]

Research says "the Average DOF comes from a football background, doesn't get the budget they need and then only gets 40% of transfers correct". TK got about 33% correct in 2018/19, greater than 40% correct before Marco and greater than 66% correct after Marco. TK doesn't come from football, always gets the required budget (shown to contribute around 76% of a DOFs success) and gets more than 50% of transfer correct, surely we should we should be grateful to TK.

What makes you say he "always gets the required budget"?
Think by most calculations we had room to spend a fair bit more under FFP recently.

I love to know what calculations you claim to have. I believe that any calculation that says we have "Room to Spend is either vastly exaggerating "Covid Losses" and/or vastly exaggerating "Academy Spending" at least for the period from 1st July 2013 until 30th June 2023.

Below is 1st July 2020 until 30th June 2023, as before 1st July 2020 we clearly had FFP no room and after 1st July 2023 we (the public) have no accounts.

Our Latest Latest Financial Account at Government House is 30th June 2023
Max Allowed FFP Loss for 2020-23: 81,000,000
Reported Loss for 2020-21: 93,490,000
Reported Loss for 2021-22: 57,627,000
Reported Loss for 2022-23: 26,046,000
Reported Loss for 2020-23: 177,163,000

Max Allowed FFP Loss = "Reported Loss" - "Academy Spending and other FFP Deductions" - "Covid Losses" + "FFP Room to Spend for 2020-23"
So "FFP Room to Spend for 2020-23"" = "Academy Spending and other FFP Deductions" + "Covid Losses" + "Max Allowed FFP Loss" - "Reported Loss"
"FFP Room to Spend for 2020-23" = "Academy Spending and other FFP Deductions" + "Covid Losses" + 81,000,000 - 177,163,000
So, "FFP Room to Spend for 2020-23" = "Academy Spending and other FFP Deductions" + "Covid Losses" - 96,163,000

Unless the Official Academy Spending exceeds 45,000,000 over three years and/or Official Covid Losses exceed 51,163,000
Then, "FFP Room to Spend for 2020-23" = 45,000,000 + 51,163,000 - 96,163,000 = 0 (i.e. there is no more money to spend).

Well immediate thought looking at that breakdown is the only one of those seasons that's included in the current FFP assessment period is 22/23, during which we theoretically had permitted losses for that season itself of £35m, and according to your research reported a loss of only £26m.

That's before the deduction of the N/A items you mention like academy spending.

And then in the subsequent two seasons since then, our net transfer spend has been lower than it was that season (about £30m lower each time) which would imply even lower overall losses.

Yeah agree with Angus re the financials here.

After June 30th 2024 the 3 year assessment period for the summers transfer window from 01/07/2024 onwards was/is:

22/23
23/24
24/25

Also to note that as all 3 of those years are prem the allowable loss is £105 million not £81 million.

If 22/23 was only a £26m loss before allowable losses for FFP that is a ridiculously good position to be in. It's not just the academy. I've not looked at the accounts since they first came out but sure there was a huge cost for the stadium development and pretty sure that is allowable. If so nowhere near £26m.

Add to that the sale of Mitro 23/24 and then JP 24/25 (as after 30th of June) and we must have had and must still have a tonne of room. It's pretty certain we were about to spend another £15m to £20m on the lad from Lyon on deadline day. Our net spend on players is incredibly low for a prem club with the £105m allowable losses. Under £20 million the last two seasons and under £50 million first year up.

I would imagine we still have plenty of room for this 3 year period then but spending to the limit in one season isn't sensible. The likes of Everton and Wolves did that and they have been pretty stuffed since. The obvious place they could have done is up front but I honestly think Marco believed/believes in Raul, Muniz and Jay and we all know selling Jay was not in the plans. If we don't spend anything else should have even more room for a striker next year if we feel we need to go big.

What the club and Marco have achieved considering the player net spend each year is truly remarkable when you look at our squad now compared to the one that came up.

[FFC1987]

I think a few people have perfectly summed up why a post like this gets negative attention if, in fact it was simply a 'aren't we lucky to have the Khans'post. People making up narratives, polishing turds to form an argument, a complete lack of appreciation of history and why we study it and just a binary thinking of 'the Khans are either good or bad'.

As usual though there's a balance which others have echoed. We are lucky, but its been a bit of a bumpy road at times.

[Twig]

I would imagine there are somewhere around 70-80 of the 92 professional clubs in the country that would bite your arm off to have the Khans in charge of their club.

They got things wrong to begin with, have learned quickly and we are a stronger club now than we were when they took over. That's success.

We are lucky to have em.

Fair enough but who on here would disagree? Isn't this just so I uncontentious as to be a statement of the blindingly obvious?

[jayffc]

Incidentally. Regarding TK supposedly "stepping back and not being involved in transfers", a line trotted out like fact so often here

We've discussed this so many times before but some still actively refuse to accept anything other than this, for reasons that are beyond me at this point given the amount of times it's been directly countered by club reps. (Tony and Marco alike)

I am baffled at why one feels the will to maintain this narrative that continues to get pushed here by posters with no sources ever referenced other than opinion and pure speculation.

The ONLY direct sources we have from club reps themselves continue to debunk this (one can of course choose to not believe them if one wishes). They always suggest Tony is in fact still very much involved in the process of target identification and has been the whole time under Silva. This was extensively covered in the Athletic interviews and has been mirrored in comments from Marco and Tony in so many videos and interviews since where they directly say he's actively involved...that they sit down and discuss it together, that they are very regularly in contact throughout the summer on it all, that before the window they extensively discuss through target identification together. Marco even confirmed his involvement AGAIN in the summer in a preseason interview video posted here etc etc etc...the links to those actual sources have been posted time and time again...

yet STILL some people just refuse to listen to those directly involved, accept their sincerity, pretend it didn't happen, or choose to ignore that such direct comments on it ever happened, in favour of holding onto some deep set reluctance to just give some credit where it's due and say, as a team, including TK ,our transfers have gotten better and better over time. Certainly one can even still do that and at the same time ascertain that Silva has brought improved input to our transfer team from the managers side, and credit to him as well as our scouts and board for trusting his judgment also...Great. good for all involved. But no...The cycle continues it seems no matter how many times this idea has been directly countered by official sources. Oh well. Is what it is at this point.

As 1987 says, I think most at very least realise and are able to say sure, it's been a road with bumps (that's life) but we're fortunate to have them at the helm all in all and Im sure are all grateful to be enjoying the successes of both good team management and some really smart recruitment over a few years now.

[jayffc]

@jayffc

I don't think anyone's suggesting TK doesn't still have 'some' involvement in transfers (I've no doubt he still has to approve a signing before he'll sign the cheque) but certainly there are regular reports now of signings being "Silva's man" and Silva wanting this or that, which is vastly different from the era where, in contrast, you had Jokanovic publicly complaining about the stats team essentially deciding whom we should sign. I don't think that's been "directly countered by official sources" anywhere. It does involve some reliance on unconfirmed media reports, but we both know things that are widely and consistently reported like that are generally true, hence you're quite rightly prepared to believe similar reports when it concerns the unofficial amounts of fees paid/received etc. We can also all see with our own eyes that TK has gone all but silent on the FFC PR side, which in itself is a "stepping back" because he was a liability in that area too, and I think we can reasonably assume from his AEW publicity that he's spending more time on that and stateside than he used to (or would be able to if he still had the full-on involvement he had a few years ago).

I think given whats directly been said in multiple interviews, Even undermining and suggesting TKs contribution might be just approving and signing is again...completely and deliberately minimising his actual input according to multiple direct sources over years now. That's the point. There have been a number of articles on it with the Athletic describing his involvement and several video interviews have said as much. I don't have time to dig them all out yet again but:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4541334/2023/05/24/tony-khan-fulham-interview/

Recruitment at Fulham, he explains, is a collaborative process involving himself, Silva and Mackintosh, as well as a team of data, analytics and scouting experts to look at every target in almost forensic detail. It is an exhaustive, time-consuming process and life can be hectic when Khan is also the co-owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars, as well as running his All Elite Wrestling empire and having various other work commitments.

"I lean heavily on data and analysing information," says Khan, whose Boston-based company, TruMedia Networks, is one of the big hitters in the world of sports data. "Marco is also very analytical, but not looking so much at the databases. We're looking (at players) in different ways and coming together on a lot of shared philosophies. We agree on almost everything and the players who have come in over the last two years have, overall, been very successful."

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/3260885/2022/05/03/tony-khan-i-dont-want-fulham-to-be-a-yo-yo-club-i-just-want-us-to-be-a-yo-club/

"This is Khan's expertise. His use of analytics underpins everything at Fulham, particularly when it comes to determining transfer targets."....

"Khan has kept in regular contact with Silva and Mackintosh, as well as the scouting department, to work "as a collaboration" that makes sure to take into account the manager's wishes."

"In truth, Fulham have been so dominant this season, taking in the view from the top of the league since January 15, that Khan started working on his list of targets much earlier. "

"We have great staff in terms of data and scouting. I did look at hiring a director of scouting at one point but then we yanked it because, once Marco got settled, it was like, 'Oh my God, this is running smoother than ever'. We have a really good group of scouts. The data team does really well and Marco and I have such a rapport we felt really good as we were."

I havent the time to dig through all the summer pre match interviews to again find the the specific ones with further comments from Silva himself about working on target list with Tony and the team, their work pre window and during etc but it happened, and it was already shared here and commented on by many at the time.
------------------------------
As for the Silvas man stuff:

People being "silvas man" seemingly comes from standard journo talk though and is said of so many transfers at many clubs ,rarely if ever with any meaningful point being made. It's just a common term about a manager "getting his man", as a general term for the club signing someone they wanted. It rarely if ever seems to come from anyone within the club. Every comment from the club or reps themselves discusses the group effort. And in fact when it has been otherwise, TK has in interviews made a point of stating so and giving credit, positively - making the clear point of distinction that such transfers are different from the normal process (like in the case of Muniz)

All of this has been stated in a number of interviews directly, and confirmed by Marco in video interviews when discussing the summer. Those clips and interviews have been shared here multiple times now but it's like people refuse to read/watch or if they do...accept them.

Here's him talking on the post slav era
1:57min - "Scot is more frequently attending my recruitment meetings than any coach we've ever had"
https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2020/september/Tony-Khan-s-Transfer-Update/

So (whilst again we have to go back 6+ years here) post Slav you had this and other direct interviews where it was stated the door had actually been open to managers to be more involved directly in the conversations, but that Parker was the first person to really step in the door fully and sit down directly and actively be much more involved in the process and conversations around target acquisition/watching tape etc... so one can choose to believe which of those accounts they prefer I guess but one of them came directly from the club itself. It's possible of course they were covering for themselves by all means so all I can go on is repeated stories since then to the contrary regarding how its been for many years since then.


TK on socials:

As for TK stepping back on socials, it doesn't have to have any bearing or be reflective of what goes on internally. Again, its been stated multiple times he is still very much deeply involved and frequently in contact with Marco and the transfer team all summer.

I couldn't be less surprised he tweets less about Fulham these days, because having paid fair attention to it over the years - if you saw the levels of endless dogs abuse he got on there from over the top toxic people (twitter is full of it) genuinely saying awful s*** to and about him, frankly I don't blame him, why would anyone bother.

Comment positively = "you **** you only comment when it goes well, fairweather blah etc"...comment when we lose = "F*** you you're the reason we're s*** cos you're too busy wrestling." .Don't comment = "you don't care about fulham as much as wrestling you should be fired'..... There is no winning for the guy, he's the villain for some, and that's it, the man has received constant abuse and attacks from Fulham trolls for years, no matter what he did.
Some people have the view you should just deal with it as someone in the public eye, but he's human like any of us...

I swear he made one passing comment on there once , and pretty mildy at that, just not caving in to some of the berating and negativity -Saying to someone about the yo-yo club situation and everyone lost their s*** that someone dare not just take the constant beating and witchhunt....and funny thing is...in the long run it ended up being the case that us getting back to staying competitive, albeit still bouncing between prem and champ for a bit, ended up forming the base of a squad that helped us finally kick that trend again and establish ourselves in the prem. So there's that.

To be labelled A "liability" based off of basically that comment years ago I just find ridiculous really. He's done tons of other in depth interviews and chats and always come across as being super enthusiastic for the club, the players have often commented on their like of him etc etc. Perhaps people find him goofy or don't click with him for whatever reason in interviews, but he's hardly a nasty individual nor useless by all accounts so why the hatred I don't know. People insist on being negative about and too him for all these years.

---------

Again, despite all the above and the ongoing flow of stories and comments saying directly to the contrary for years now, people seemingly will still find a way to give as minuscule credit possible, but maximum criticism whenever possible - It is what it is.



[/b] p.s to read the above sources one can paste into: https://12ft.io/ [/b]

[jayffc]

I've always see you as a bit of a WUM, perry geyton.

In all my time on this forum, you have a habit of posting stuff in an aim to wind people up, or cause trouble when there is a period of calm around the club.

Marco is doing great, yes, he's probably the club's biggest asset right now, but Tony has handed a lot of the recruitment responsibility to him, which was a requirement when he signed his new contract with us.

Tony, who is "Not bad for a Yank huh?!?!?!" merely signs players off now, if the price is right.

If anything, Tony sits his arse out in the US now, driving his AEW franchise, with little or no involvement.

 

Well if that's the case I'm just curious who it was then that came up with the idea of signing Marco and getting him to put pen to paper in the first place ?

Most likely Tony's dad, Shahid, who actually owns the club and is a self made and savvy businessman. But you know that.

Additional direct source on TKs involvement in the hiring of Marco:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/3260885/2022/05/03/tony-khan-i-dont-want-fulham-to-be-a-yo-yo-club-i-just-want-us-to-be-a-yo-club/

"Marco was our prime choice," says (Tony) Khan. "He was always the guy we wanted. I did a Zoom interview with him. We talked philosophically. There was so much in common and I had so much respect for him. I'd met him only in passing before, when he was manager of Everton, but I felt so comfortable with him. For us, it didn't feel like a difficult choice."

He then goes on to explain his Dad then had a meeting with him on his boat in Portugal

"My dad had a really good meeting with him in Portugal," says Khan. "My dad was out there on Kismet (his yacht). They spent a ton of time together and made a great connection. As my dad said to me, 'It was just good vibes'. And I felt that connection, too.

"Marco saw the potential here and his vision made so much sense for the club. I immediately said to (chief executive) Alistair Mackintosh, 'This is the one'. That's all I needed."

....

Process seems to have been therefore - list of potential managers to meet created - meetings had with TK via video interview - Marco (who knows if any others too)  selected from those meetings and invited to meet with Shahid to get the seal of approval - Got the thumbs up from big boss - Decision made.

So again. clearly was very much involved.

[Deeping_white]

On the whole recruitment piece, I think it's fair to say that we had some short term pain in their early years while they got to grips with the footballing world and that transfers couldn't be purely stats based because of how they translate to the real world doesn't quite work. The main thing is that in the last 5 years we've been pretty spot on in terms of talent identification and purchasing at sensible fees, which to me shows that there's been some introspection and review of processes and methodology to get us to a point where as a fanbase we're now quite comfortable that the scouting and purchasing of players is pretty solid, if not sometimes on the slower side (albeit we know why that is because we're trying to be prudent with our budgets). If along the way it's taken a couple of managers to help refine the process and turn it into what Marco gets to run with today then that's also fine, Jokanovic and Parker were never elite level managers and so a little bit of collateral damage there is fine; they walked so Silva could run with a better process. As long as that refinement and improvement continues then we'll be in a strong place moving forward, and if that involves more or less of TK then it's okay because he can claim a level of ownersip of being part of what we've become, and if he wants to leave things to others moving forward then it's also okay because it's much easier to find some sort of DoF to come into a stable environment as opposed to the house that was on fire in circa 2018.

[FFC1987]

Not to wade into the Jay Vs Angus, but my 2 cents on Khan 'stepping back' from being as active on social media was possibly a learning exercise where, he was often, and rightly in my opinion, criticised for some of his more, spur of the moment posts. He has a lot of criticism over at the wrestling as well for some reactive posts so I just think he's learning from the 'less is more' approach to social media really.

He could of been asked (advised, or thought about it for himself) to employ a PR social media expert perhaps but either way, something he's been criticised before for, has clearly been addressed so I don;t see that as a sign of doing less, or taking a step back at all, largely for the ample evidence Jay supplied anyway.

That's my humble interpretation anyway.

[perry geyton]

I've always see you as a bit of a WUM, perry geyton.

In all my time on this forum, you have a habit of posting stuff in an aim to wind people up, or cause trouble when there is a period of calm around the club.

Marco is doing great, yes, he's probably the club's biggest asset right now, but Tony has handed a lot of the recruitment responsibility to him, which was a requirement when he signed his new contract with us.

Tony, who is "Not bad for a Yank huh?!?!?!" merely signs players off now, if the price is right.

If anything, Tony sits his arse out in the US now, driving his AEW franchise, with little or no involvement.

 

Well if that's the case I'm just curious who it was then that came up with the idea of signing Marco and getting him to put pen to paper in the first place ?

Shahid Khan, do keep up.

That's family brother it's all tied in

I'd guess that there's an another underlying reason that you won't give em credit

Sounds like your problem not mine

I have no underlying reason not to give Tony credit, I've given him loads in the past, when it's justified.

However, the problem seems to lay with you perry geyton, as you always seem to push the issue with Tony, and expect every fan to give him constant credit.

You use it as bait to rile other members, and we don't appreciate it.

Grow up. 

A previous post from jimsbeerbelly , a fine example of when he has given Tony credit in the past as he previously mentioned ;

"Do what?? Why is it, that we can't discuss the fact that he is utterly tosh at his job, without people like you always turning it into a supposed witch hunt, because he's the son of a billionaire?

 i don't give a damn who he is, where he comes from, what he's worth or who his Dad is, he's terrible at his job, and has been for many seasons now.

Yet again, we've 6 days to go until the window shuts, and the best manager since Roy has been left hanging with signing's.

The incomitance levels from our DOF and those around him are staggering, and I for one would like to see him gone."

And there have you it !
I believe this was posted at the beginning of the season before last, a good season if I remember right
 

[jayffc]

Not to wade into the Jay Vs Angus, but my 2 cents on Khan 'stepping back' from being as active on social media was possibly a learning exercise where, he was often, and rightly in my opinion, criticised for some of his more, spur of the moment posts. He has a lot of criticism over at the wrestling as well for some reactive posts so I just think he's learning from the 'less is more' approach to social media really.

He could of been asked (advised, or thought about it for himself) to employ a PR social media expert perhaps but either way, something he's been criticised before for, has clearly been addressed so I don;t see that as a sign of doing less, or taking a step back at all, largely for the ample evidence Jay supplied anyway.

That's my humble interpretation anyway.

Seems a plausible assessment. Albeit I don't think I read much from him during that time people got offended that I felt was particularly outrageous from him, especially given the context of what he was getting on the other end... but without knowing for sure either way - its of course possible he could have been advised to engage less by PR team, or maybe he decided he's not all that enthusiastic about dealing with the toxicity he gets all the time on x, either way as you say doesn't have to be reflective of his input internally at all.

In the interest of being clear, it's not about Me V Angus for me. It's not intended to be personal remotely, its about offering the direct sources of information that repeatedly have covered the way our clubs transfer process is set up and functions, that directly counters the baseless speculation we read on here that seems so eager to undermine someone's work who's clearly, at this point, contributed significantly to a lot of our success for years now (yes, just as that same individual by his own admission had definite bumps in that road, particularly in his early tenure)

I can't ultimately affect who, or if, it helps finally move on from such often baseless and usually negative speculation with a view to discrediting one individual. But hey, all ya can do is offer the direct sources of info and hope that it may help shift some perspective, even if ya don't hold ya breathe.

[jayffc]

Jay, you can scream until you're blue in the face (or in this case, write 1,500 words) about other people's views being "baseless speculation" but I don't think any of your evidence (mostly from TK's own interviews and articles he's briefed to friendly US journos, I see) adds any more factual/logical strength to your own view.

I said very clearly that TK (and I'm sure, stats) remain a part our process, and yes your quotes confirm that much - but that still leaves a broad universe of interpretations as to how much weight is given to the different elements of the process, who's originating targets for whom to review, etc.

I think it's clear as day that TK is spending less time on FFC now, and is less dominant in the transfer process, than he was say 7-8 years ago when FFC was essentially a testing ground for his and CK's sports stats business. To deny that seems blinkered and absurd IMO.

The notion that TK has "stepped back" at least to some degree (maybe I should have used Deeping White's semantics and called it a "refinement" of the process) isn't a particularly extreme view, i reckon it's a view a majority of the fanbase sympathise with.

If you want to make emotion-based, patronising and unconstructive comments about people needing to "move on from negativity", go ahead, but it's clear from the content/length of your own posts that you're more desperate than anyone to defend the mound you've found yourself on here.

1. No ones screaming, and vast majority was lifted directly from the articles. Demeaning someone for writing comprehensively is, as ever, a cheap tactic to resort to.

2. Both interviews are with English reporter and 4 time football journalist of the year, formerly of the guardian, for the athletic, a UK publication, hosted on nytimes site...not that it should matter really. The interviews aren't just these, there are plenty other interviews and videos over the years where this matters been discussed. But doesn't matter how many get posted, people as evidenced will still search for any reason to ignore them or their contents, or have a preference to suggest they're just puff pieces,  in favour of maintaining their own bias. People are entitled to do so if they wish. Fair dos even if I find that an odd stance personally. People naturally aren't inclined to like information that doesn't support their point of view no matter how direct the source.

3. My view is simply that Tony is clearly more involved than many repeatedly want to give credit for. And that's not even an opinion, it's fact at this point. Maybe you personally have managed to begrudgingly mumble some semblance of mild acknowledgement for his presence, through gritted teeth, but you aren't the only person on this board or thread. The statements clearly do add strength and logic to back up the opinion that he's  far more involved in our transfer target identification and process than many give credit, especially when stacked against almost exclusively people saying stuff with little to no evidence offered in return other than subjective interpretation and opinion.

4. I'm glad you acknowledge he remains part of the process - but as I say, you are one of a few here who say similar stuff, some more harshly than others. Which is again why I made the point this wasn't supposed to be me v angus above.

5. As stated these links have been corroborated by video interviews with Silva where he's mentioned a few times now sitting down with Tony and the team to work on identifying targets etc. Certainly nothings been said that suggests he's lying about the degree of his involvement or that it's changed. I mentioned already why it's harder to dig those things (mostly videos) up, every time to link em, but they've been posted throughout the last few windows including the summer.

6. I didn't say it was "extreme" to suggest he might have "refined his process" over the years...This is an attempt to change the frame of the argument away from what the original point was.
Because it's completely disingenuous to suggest numerous people aren't and haven't been far stronger in their statements for years, which was whats actually being addressed here, and acting like people haven't actively been trying to remove as much credit as possible from TK at every opportunity - as a number have been for years.

Not sure what one defines as "less involved" . It's a very loose non comittal definition to play with but it's fine that you feel that's the case in your opinion. Its possible but by what fraction? And is it an amount proportional to how much his input is belittled? Id hazard a guess not. I'd be open to the actual evidence for that opinion being presented to consider it. Any actual direct quote or concrete comment/evidence for it other than getting that feeling from what TK tweets or doesn't tweet on socials, something that actually counters all the previous interviews...literally anything to strengthen the assertion that not agreeing with this opinion is "blinkered or absurd" beyond it being based purely on ones feeling or speculation that it's the case.  Because it still hasn't been presented. So till then there's it's just based on assumption seemingly which I don't find all that compelling a position.

That said - It's possible absolutely, I have no qualms with saying it absolutely could be the case... I'm just saying I'm yet to see anything that corroborates this from an official source at the club, and the last we heard in the summer was that he's still absolutely involved. And people said the same thing in previous windows of late - only for TK to come out with those interviews linked.

7. The post is not remotely about emotion-based anything, and reframing it as such is frankly another cheap tactic to undermine whats said. Provided sources and context and didn't insult anyone, at worst I just stated I don't understand how one comes to the conclusions they do based on the evidence and that I find it hard to understand why in the face of so many comments don't he matter - some people still feel compelled to discredit so frequently.

8. It shouldn't be patronising to say that you accept that you can't ultimately dictate how people feel, but that you hope that maybe some people might read such direct quotes and consider being less negative in the face of what many including myseld have found to be compelling direct information on TKs involvement.

If one feels patronised by such a thing, alright. People can take it as they want to. Not the intention, but if that's how one feels when confronted with such a post, then ok I guess. As for unconstructive (??) I mean, again, what's constructive about posting opinions on a football forum at all? And especially whats constructive about repeatedly going out of one's way to make a point of discrediting TK at every opportunity? Literally Nothing. So?

Hoping people find multiple references on the topic discussed compelling enough to maybe consider their stance... on a message board designed for discussion - is unconstructive? Alright man 🤷🏻

All in all, as I said. Some people aren't interested in having their stance challenged even if with evidence-based discussion. It is what is and so I hold little hope for people actually being open to a change of mind on it. Thats how it goes here, but if they're saying their piece, I'll say mine.
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If something comes out saying TK has stepped as massively down as some seem to want to paint, awesome, great, I'll read it with keen interest. I don't actually care if he is or isn't in reality, providing we're doing well...it may surprise you or others but I genunely have no deeper attachment to this always being the case forever. As someone pointed out, clearly he's had his mark for years that deserves praise at this point... but It's possible that evolves and he takes a backseat internally, Im just yet to see any compelling reason to believe that's the case yet, so till then. I'll continue to give praise where It seems to be due and question the resistance to not do so.

We know where you stand on it, you know where I stand on it. I try to keep it away from making it some personal matter here and do try to stick to the facts of it, and so will leave it at that

[Woolly Mammoth]

Jay, you can scream until you're blue in the face (or in this case, write 1,500 words) about other people's views being "baseless speculation" but I don't think any of your evidence (mostly from TK's own interviews and articles he's briefed to friendly US journos, I see) adds any more factual/logical strength to your own view.

I said very clearly that TK (and I'm sure, stats) remain a part our process, and yes your quotes confirm that much - but that still leaves a broad universe of interpretations as to how much weight is given to the different elements of the process, who's originating targets for whom to review, etc.

I think it's clear as day that TK is spending less time on FFC now, and is less dominant in the transfer process, than he was say 7-8 years ago when FFC was essentially a testing ground for his and CK's sports stats business. To deny that seems blinkered and absurd IMO.

The notion that TK has "stepped back" at least to some degree (maybe I should have used Deeping White's semantics and called it a "refinement" of the process) isn't a particularly extreme view, i reckon it's a view a majority of the fanbase sympathise with.

If you want to make emotion-based, patronising and unconstructive comments about people needing to "move on from negativity", go ahead, but it's clear from the content/length of your own posts that you're more desperate than anyone to defend the mound you've found yourself on here.

1. No ones screaming, and vast majority was lifted directly from the articles. Demeaning someone for writing comprehensively is, as ever, a cheap tactic to resort to.

2. Both interviews are with English reporter and 4 time football journalist of the year, formerly of the guardian, for the athletic, a UK publication, hosted on nytimes site...not that it should matter really. The interviews aren't just these, there are plenty other interviews and videos over the years where this matters been discussed. But doesn't matter how many get posted, people as evidenced will still search for any reason to ignore them or their contents, or have a preference to suggest they're just puff pieces,  in favour of maintaining their own bias. People are entitled to do so if they wish. Fair dos even if I find that an odd stance personally. People naturally aren't inclined to like information that doesn't support their point of view no matter how direct the source.

3. My view is simply that Tony is clearly more involved than many repeatedly want to give credit for. And that's not even an opinion, it's fact at this point. Maybe you personally have managed to begrudgingly mumble some semblance of mild acknowledgement for his presence, through gritted teeth, but you aren't the only person on this board or thread. The statements clearly do add strength and logic to back up the opinion that he's  far more involved in our transfer target identification and process than many give credit, especially when stacked against almost exclusively people saying stuff with little to no evidence offered in return other than subjective interpretation and opinion.

4. I'm glad you acknowledge he remains part of the process - but as I say, you are one of a few here who say similar stuff, some more harshly than others. Which is again why I made the point this wasn't supposed to be me v angus above.

5. As stated these links have been corroborated by video interviews with Silva where he's mentioned a few times now sitting down with Tony and the team to work on identifying targets etc. Certainly nothings been said that suggests he's lying about the degree of his involvement or that it's changed. I mentioned already why it's harder to dig those things (mostly videos) up, every time to link em, but they've been posted throughout the last few windows including the summer.

6. I didn't say it was "extreme" to suggest he might have "refined his process" over the years...This is an attempt to change the frame of the argument away from what the original point was.
Because it's completely disingenuous to suggest numerous people aren't and haven't been far stronger in their statements for years, which was whats actually being addressed here, and acting like people haven't actively been trying to remove as much credit as possible from TK at every opportunity - as a number have been for years.

Not sure what one defines as "less involved" . It's a very loose non comittal definition to play with but it's fine that you feel that's the case in your opinion. Its possible but by what fraction? And is it an amount proportional to how much his input is belittled? Id hazard a guess not. I'd be open to the actual evidence for that opinion being presented to consider it. Any actual direct quote or concrete comment/evidence for it other than getting that feeling from what TK tweets or doesn't tweet on socials, something that actually counters all the previous interviews...literally anything to strengthen the assertion that not agreeing with this opinion is "blinkered or absurd" beyond it being based purely on ones feeling or speculation that it's the case.  Because it still hasn't been presented. So till then there's it's just based on assumption seemingly which I don't find all that compelling a position.

That said - It's possible absolutely, I have no qualms with saying it absolutely could be the case... I'm just saying I'm yet to see anything that corroborates this from an official source at the club, and the last we heard in the summer was that he's still absolutely involved. And people said the same thing in previous windows of late - only for TK to come out with those interviews linked.

7. The post is not remotely about emotion-based anything, and reframing it as such is frankly another cheap tactic to undermine whats said. Provided sources and context and didn't insult anyone, at worst I just stated I don't understand how one comes to the conclusions they do based on the evidence and that I find it hard to understand why in the face of so many comments don't he matter - some people still feel compelled to discredit so frequently.

8. It shouldn't be patronising to say that you accept that you can't ultimately dictate how people feel, but that you hope that maybe some people might read such direct quotes and consider being less negative in the face of what many including myseld have found to be compelling direct information on TKs involvement.

If one feels patronised by such a thing, alright. People can take it as they want to. Not the intention, but if that's how one feels when confronted with such a post, then ok I guess. As for unconstructive (??) I mean, again, what's constructive about posting opinions on a football forum at all? And especially whats constructive about repeatedly going out of one's way to make a point of discrediting TK at every opportunity? Literally Nothing. So?

Hoping people find multiple references on the topic discussed compelling enough to maybe consider their stance... on a message board designed for discussion - is unconstructive? Alright man 🤷🏻

All in all, as I said. Some people aren't interested in having their stance challenged even if with evidence-based discussion. It is what is and so I hold little hope for people actually being open to a change of mind on it. Thats how it goes here, but if they're saying their piece, I'll say mine.
--------

If something comes out saying TK has stepped as massively down as some seem to want to paint, awesome, great, I'll read it with keen interest. I don't actually care if he is or isn't in reality, providing we're doing well...it may surprise you or others but I genunely have no deeper attachment to this always being the case forever. As someone pointed out, clearly he's had his mark for years that deserves praise at this point... but It's possible that evolves and he takes a backseat internally, Im just yet to see any compelling reason to believe that's the case yet, so till then. I'll continue to give praise where It seems to be due and question the resistance to not do so.

We know where you stand on it, you know where I stand on it. I try to keep it away from making it some personal matter here and do try to stick to the facts of it, and so will leave it at that

Phew glad we eventually all agree and this has concluded in harmony, as i do not like to see or feel there is hostility on the forum between loyal Fulham supporters.
Also it warms my heart that common-sense has eventually prevailed as TK has clearly taken best advice to step back and leave it to the professional's.
As you know common sense is very common and that makes a lot of sense.

Because it is showing that Fulham under Silva are progressing very well without TKs interference into something he is unqualified to oversee.

Which has inadvertently done TK a massive favour as he can now spend even more time with his beloved men in tights acting their parts, i mean wrestling and all that goes with it, so everyone is a winner.

I can also inform you that it has been confirmed that it was Colonel Mustard with the Lead Pipe in the study.

[FFC1987]

Not to wade into the Jay Vs Angus, but my 2 cents on Khan 'stepping back' from being as active on social media was possibly a learning exercise where, he was often, and rightly in my opinion, criticised for some of his more, spur of the moment posts. He has a lot of criticism over at the wrestling as well for some reactive posts so I just think he's learning from the 'less is more' approach to social media really.

He could of been asked (advised, or thought about it for himself) to employ a PR social media expert perhaps but either way, something he's been criticised before for, has clearly been addressed so I don;t see that as a sign of doing less, or taking a step back at all, largely for the ample evidence Jay supplied anyway.

That's my humble interpretation anyway.

Seems a plausible assessment. Albeit I don't think I read much from him during that time people got offended that I felt was particularly outrageous from him, especially given the context of what he was getting on the other end... but without knowing for sure either way - its of course possible he could have been advised to engage less by PR team, or maybe he decided he's not all that enthusiastic about dealing with the toxicity he gets all the time on x, either way as you say doesn't have to be reflective of his input internally at all.

In the interest of being clear, it's not about Me V Angus for me. It's not intended to be personal remotely, its about offering the direct sources of information that repeatedly have covered the way our clubs transfer process is set up and functions, that directly counters the baseless speculation we read on here that seems so eager to undermine someone's work who's clearly, at this point, contributed significantly to a lot of our success for years now (yes, just as that same individual by his own admission had definite bumps in that road, particularly in his early tenure)

I can't ultimately affect who, or if, it helps finally move on from such often baseless and usually negative speculation with a view to discrediting one individual. But hey, all ya can do is offer the direct sources of info and hope that it may help shift some perspective, even if ya don't hold ya breathe.

I personally thought some of his tweets lacked consideration for the fan base, but that's subjective so each to their own. But it's a good point you raise that perhaps the 'step back' from social media to mitigate the abuse he got. Could be a blend of all those obviously but it makes sense to me.

[jayffc]

Not to wade into the Jay Vs Angus, but my 2 cents on Khan 'stepping back' from being as active on social media was possibly a learning exercise where, he was often, and rightly in my opinion, criticised for some of his more, spur of the moment posts. He has a lot of criticism over at the wrestling as well for some reactive posts so I just think he's learning from the 'less is more' approach to social media really.

He could of been asked (advised, or thought about it for himself) to employ a PR social media expert perhaps but either way, something he's been criticised before for, has clearly been addressed so I don;t see that as a sign of doing less, or taking a step back at all, largely for the ample evidence Jay supplied anyway.

That's my humble interpretation anyway.

Seems a plausible assessment. Albeit I don't think I read much from him during that time people got offended that I felt was particularly outrageous from him, especially given the context of what he was getting on the other end... but without knowing for sure either way - its of course possible he could have been advised to engage less by PR team, or maybe he decided he's not all that enthusiastic about dealing with the toxicity he gets all the time on x, either way as you say doesn't have to be reflective of his input internally at all.

In the interest of being clear, it's not about Me V Angus for me. It's not intended to be personal remotely, its about offering the direct sources of information that repeatedly have covered the way our clubs transfer process is set up and functions, that directly counters the baseless speculation we read on here that seems so eager to undermine someone's work who's clearly, at this point, contributed significantly to a lot of our success for years now (yes, just as that same individual by his own admission had definite bumps in that road, particularly in his early tenure)

I can't ultimately affect who, or if, it helps finally move on from such often baseless and usually negative speculation with a view to discrediting one individual. But hey, all ya can do is offer the direct sources of info and hope that it may help shift some perspective, even if ya don't hold ya breathe.

I personally thought some of his tweets lacked consideration for the fan base, but that's subjective so each to their own. But it's a good point you raise that perhaps the 'step back' from social media to mitigate the abuse he got. Could be a blend of all those obviously but it makes sense to me.

Fair enough, we all have a different lens when looking at that sort of thing guided by our own experiences. I recall reading through the sort o stuff he was receiving to prompt his messaging at the time and thinking his response pretty damn mild all things considered but appreciate people might see it differently.

Thanks for the reasonable engagement in discussion...meanwhile, entirely proving the point, I'm unsuprised as ever to find that ability, or will, lacking elsewhere 🙄