Friends of Fulham

I am as unhappy with this season as anyone.The team has been poor all season,and we all want to know why . We have all been suffering particularly after the optimism of that great day at wembley last year,and what seemed to be a statement of intent by the club
to upgrade on many positions and back the club by the owners with Tony Khan at the helm.
The rebuilding of the squad from the late days of Magath ,was nothing short of miraculous. The squad was completely overhauled and with the signings of Mitro and Targett last January completed giving the team a balance ,which led to a quality of football that I have never witnessed during the 53 years that I have supported the club.
Big mistakes have been made by all in involved, not least the owners and the appointment of Ranieri who was a complete misfit in playing philosophy for a group of players brought into to play the possession based game advocated by Jokanovic.
Tony khan has been made the scapegoat by many. Hes an easy target . Nepotism sits badly with most, and the naivety of the Khans is constantly banded about as the reason for our failure ,as though they somehow are only at the club to make money or  for some other less than legitimate reason,and Tony Khan has suddenly become the anti-christ.
This for me is the ultimately naivety in this whole ,sorry situation the club finds itself in. Would the Khans have spent 100 million on the team if Tony not been responsible for recruitment?
Get rid of him some say with monotonous repetition in just about every post they write. Get rid of the khans and bring in new others say others.
I believe we have owners that are well-intended,not without fault or blame but neither setting out to wreck the club. Khan senior is clearly an astute business man and I,  for one think hes a decent owner. I hope he will get it right and the club will learn huge lessons from this season. In all the negative vitriol thrown at the club we ,the supporters should be careful what we wish for.
It could be a hell-of-a lot worse.

I have seen very few, if any, posts asking for The Khans to go. Indeed, the majority are not even asking for Tony to go entirely, merely that he relinquish football related duties and be left to focus on business related matters to support his father in strengthening the club.  I don't think anyone is suggesting they do not have best intentions of the club at heart?

I hope your right Twig,but that is not the way I have been seeing it ! 

Quote from: Twig on March 03, 2019, 08:13:40 AM
I have seen very few, if any, posts asking for The Khans to go. Indeed, the majority are not even asking for Tony to go entirely, merely that he relinquish football related duties and be left to focus on business related matters to support his father in strengthening the club.  I don't think anyone is suggesting they do not have best intentions of the club at heart?

This is exactly how I feel about them . I can totally understand, and have no problem , with TK being involved with the club but simply not as DOF.

You have clearly spent some time writing the OP but I don't get your point ?

My point is there is as Parker stated a `disconect` at the club .
Many fans seem to want their cake and eat it. We spent big (which we cant take for granted ),and this was largely due to TKs influence . Seems niave to me to assume that the spending will continue if TK was to get the boot.

I believe it's the (alleged) dynamic of Tony Khan wanting to "prove a point" to his father by using unproven statistical models to control a club that some are upset with.

I think having Tony Khan there to unlock his father's money is obviously good for the club.. and we would be niaive in thinking that wouldn't come with a price. Perhaps we just need a better balance? And for that.. quite a few on here have suggested another man/woman as Co-Director of Football (or just below).

Let us be clear, most people IMO want the Khan's out per se.
BUT
TK only remains in situ because his dad is owner. Until that is rectified the extreme critical comments will in=evitably going to continue.

No doubt that the Khans have given full financial support to the club, not sure where we would be without them, and lets not forget the success of that wonderful play off at Wembley.

I just want to see Tony Khan as general manager with an experienced football man alongside him as Director of football. Also can our recruitment team switch the emphasis from stats to the manager's needs.

Quote from: colinwhite on March 03, 2019, 09:36:38 AM
Many fans seem to want their cake and eat it. We spent big (which we cant take for granted ),and this was largely due to TKs influence . Seems niave to me to assume that the spending will continue if TK was to get the boot.

This sounds like the spurious philosophy of Michel Barnier now permeating other walks of life... this idea that anything good or useful must be counter-balanced by something pointless or painful

I'd like a car that I can drive both forwards and, when I'm parking, in reverse. You (and Michel) would probably tell me that's impossible - you can have a car that goes forwards, or a car that goes backwards, but not a car that can do both. Such a car would be the stuff of unicorns and fairies. 

Personally I don't see any reason why Khan wouldn't just want the millions he's spending to be used effectively to bring the club success, in a way that serves not only the club itself but also Khan's own reputation in business/sport/the UK, and the value of his investment. Surely that's ultimately what we all (the club, fans and Khan) want. If that would mean his son taking a different role (where, I might add, his son would be far less exposed to the abuse and stress which is patently upsetting him at the moment) why exactly is it "naive" to expect that?!!!   

Quote from: colinwhite on March 03, 2019, 09:36:38 AM
My point is there is as Parker stated a `disconect` at the club .
Many fans seem to want their cake and eat it. We spent big (which we cant take for granted ),and this was largely due to TKs influence . Seems niave to me to assume that the spending will continue if TK was to get the boot.

The "disconnect" is a red herring,  It happens for all kinds of reasons but normal when a team is so pathetic!
Spending big is a waste of money and damaging if it achieves below average (being kind) results!

I repeat, I'm convinced the majority of fans understand the benefits of our owner but its such a shame his resources are so obviously wasted which then multiplies the pressure this failure brings on the club.

I'm impressed with what Tom Cairney is reported to have said "The owners backed us and spent a lot of money we had so many new players arrive on Deadline Day and maybe the integration, we've not bonded as quickly and that has shown on the pitch and we've been playing catch up ever since and we've struggled to find any rhythm or momentum in the season and put wins together and get any confidence."

thanks for all the rational ,reasonable replies. I agree with alot of the sentiments and hope I am wrong in my perception of what some on the forum want. Of course I would like another football man to come in as an advisor/ mentor / implimenter to TK.
Even then there is no guaranteeof success. Roy brought Konchesky to Liverpool as he needed a reliable LB, only to find that this was  the type of player many fans were never going to accept, and that he was a total misfit for that particular club.

Quote from: colinwhite on March 03, 2019, 08:07:00 AM
Would the Khans have spent 100 million on the team if Tony not been responsible for recruitment? ........In all the negative vitriol thrown at the club we ,the supporters should be careful what we wish for........ It could be a hell-of-a lot worse.

For me, your post is an excellent summary of the situtation, and I cannot understand the vitriol thrown around. For me, as long as this club has players like Mawson, Seri, Cairney, Sessegnon and Mitrovoic our premier league hopes are alive even though it maybe via the Championship. I don;t understand why the fans are pressure on who is the DOF, this doesn't matter, what matters is keeping our best players and replacing any we lose.

So, If FFC fans want to pressure the Khans, it should be "Tony Khan greatest achievement was to buy Mitrovoic, so don't sell him".

I totally agree with the OP and can see the point being made.
There have been a number of posters, perfectly entitled, who have nothing less that vitriol towards both Tony and Khan Sr, almost since the time they purchased the club, lets not kid ourselves.

I believe that whereas they have made mistakes, some might even consider them rookie mistakes, they have had the future of the club in mind at all times, and it has never been anything less than a full effort by them to gain success, as much for business reasons as anything else.

Perhaps a move away from recruitment for Tony might be the answer for us, but I cannot recall a time since we regained the top flight  some 19 years ago, that people have been happy with our recruitment team, so the grass does seem greener somehow, but always turns out to be the same grass on both sides of the fence.

Quote from: Logicalman on March 03, 2019, 02:01:02 PM
I totally agree with the OP and can see the point being made.
There have been a number of posters, perfectly entitled, who have nothing less that vitriol towards both Tony and Khan Sr, almost since the time they purchased the club, lets not kid ourselves.

I believe that whereas they have made mistakes, some might even consider them rookie mistakes, they have had the future of the club in mind at all times, and it has never been anything less than a full effort by them to gain success, as much for business reasons as anything else.

Perhaps a move away from recruitment for Tony might be the answer for us, but I cannot recall a time since we regained the top flight  some 19 years ago, that people have been happy with our recruitment team, so the grass does seem greener somehow, but always turns out to be the same grass on both sides of the fence.

Your central points seems to be, "they have had the future of the club in mind at all times", which is very reasonable and something I agree with.

But that seems to contradict the OP's key argument that it's "naive... to assume that the spending will continue if TK was to get the boot", in other words, Shahid Khan is not paying to give the club a good future at all, he's paying to give TK a hobby, even when that patently harms the club

Sentances that start with"  ìn other words " and arguement by analogy is usually either irrelivant to the points being made  or the  twisting a statemate for an alternative agenda. Either way,they are  cheap ploys in debate which dont work too well.
We will never know the motivation of Khan senior ,but I hope he keeps backing the club in the transfer market .

Quote from: colinwhite on March 03, 2019, 09:08:16 PM
Sentances that start with"  ìn other words " and arguement by analogy is usually either irrelivant to the points being made  or the  twisting a statemate for an alternative agenda. Either way,they are  cheap ploys in debate which dont work too well.

Speak for yourself Colin. For those of us who can spell "sentences", "argument" and "irrelevant" correctly, they're effective rhetorical devices and good ways to articulate a valid point.

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Quote from: Statto on March 03, 2019, 09:15:08 PM

Quote from: colinwhite on March 03, 2019, 09:08:16 PM
Sentances that start with"  ìn other words " and arguement by analogy is usually either irrelivant to the points being made  or the  twisting a statemate for an alternative agenda. Either way,they are  cheap ploys in debate which dont work too well.

Speak for yourself Colin. For those of us who can spell "sentences", "argument" and "irrelevant" correctly, they're effective rhetorical devices and good ways to articulate a valid point.

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LOL, glad your spell checker system is working!

Sorry statto they are cheap tricks in  argument which are both irritating and transparent. Your spelling is excellent though !!

Quote from: colinwhite on March 03, 2019, 09:23:25 PM
Sorry statto they are cheap tricks in  argument which are both irritating and transparent. Your spelling is excellent though !!

Wasn't his point valid though, regardless of whether you liked his way of presenting it or not?

i agree with him to an extent ,but dont think we can just assume that its TK s hobby and as such proves that his dad doesnt really have the best interests of the club at heart. I do see your point though Statto. I hope they are going to improve and believe they will learn from this season.

"True love travels on a gravel road"

(Percy Sledge, Elvis Presley, others)

Quote from: ALG01 on March 03, 2019, 10:32:49 AM
Let us be clear, most people IMO want the Khan's out per se.
BUT
TK only remains in situ because his dad is owner. Until that is rectified the extreme critical comments will in=evitably going to continue.

Woops typo big time
Shud say do not want the Khan's out per se.

Quote from: colinwhite on March 03, 2019, 08:07:00 AM

It could be a hell-of-a lot worse.

I personally think everyone agrees on the facts that "The new recruits haven't gone well" and while our DOF is great at getting money for recruitment he is not very good at spending it. I think we all realise that SK (under the DOF guidance) has paid £22m for a guy that's place in any EPL first XI depends on injuries and his form which is also poor at the moment (not what you expect for his price).

The debate therefore has fallen into two camps "It could be a hell-of-a lot better with another DOF" or "It could be a hell-of-a lot worse with another DOF". To even simplify it further the two camps could be summarised by "It could be a hell-of-a lot better with DOF that has footballing brain" or "It could be a hell-of-a lot worse with DOF that no access to new equity to buy players".

I think analogies help people see the other perspective and i think all the "it could be worse camp" see that £22m+ can be spent better than Anguissa, but it should be equally obvious that a DOF without any money for transfers and to pay wages is far worse off. I think people may find like those that said "Slav out", the alternative is not always better.

I would also point out that while Marselle were happy to let Anguissa go, the main reason the price got so high is other clubs were bidding on him pushing the price up and up (which is rumoured to be Southampton). So, if you want use the price of Anguissa as proof we had the most stupid DOF, then ok that's a great argument; but realise he is still only marginally more stupid than some other EPL clubs team of experts trying to buy him too.

And, if we sack TK no one would be less surprised than me if "our recruitment team" still isn't as good as the "marginally less stupid than TK recruitment team", only difference is they won't be as getting more money every time that mess up.

FFC best chance of greatness is Tony Khan becomes a football genius, which could occur if he finds the right advisor to whisper players to buy in his hear,  like may have occurred with the Mitrovoic signing.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 03, 2019, 11:33:21 PM

Quote from: colinwhite on March 03, 2019, 08:07:00 AM

It could be a hell-of-a lot worse.

I personally think everyone agrees on the facts that "The new recruits haven't gone well" and while our DOF is great at getting money for recruitment he is not very good at spending it. I think we all realise that SK (under the DOF guidance) has paid £22m for a guy that's place in any EPL first XI depends on injuries and his form which is also poor at the moment (not what you expect for his price).

The debate therefore has fallen into two camps "It could be a hell-of-a lot better with another DOF" or "It could be a hell-of-a lot worse with another DOF". To even simplify it further the two camps could be summarised by "It could be a hell-of-a lot better with DOF that has footballing brain" or "It could be a hell-of-a lot worse with DOF that no access to new equity to buy players".

I think analogies help people see the other perspective and i think all the "it could be worse camp" see that £22m+ can be spent better than Anguissa, but it should be equally obvious that a DOF without any money for transfers and to pay wages is far worse off. I think people may find like those that said "Slav out", the alternative is not always better.

I would also point out that while Marselle were happy to let Anguissa go, the main reason the price got so high is other clubs were bidding on him pushing the price up and up (which is rumoured to be Southampton). So, if you want use the price of Anguissa as proof we had the most stupid DOF, then ok that's a great argument; but realise he is still only marginally more stupid than some other EPL clubs team of experts trying to buy him too.

And, if we sack TK no one would be less surprised than me if "our recruitment team" still isn't as good as the "marginally less stupid than TK recruitment team", only difference is they won't be as getting more money every time that mess up.

FFC best chance of greatness is Tony Khan becomes a football genius, which could occur if he finds the right advisor to whisper players to buy in his hear,  like may have occurred with the Mitrovoic signing.

The advisor who wanted Mitrovic was Jokanovic

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 03, 2019, 11:33:21 PM
"It could be a hell-of-a lot worse with DOF that no access to new equity to buy players"

a DOF without any money for transfers and to pay wages is far worse off

they won't be as getting more money every time that mess up

Despite Colinwhite and I being rude to each other further up this thread, I think, as you seem to as well, that we largely agree on most aspects of the debate about our chairman

The specific point on which I disagreed with Colinwhite is the idea that Shahid Khan will only sustain his current level of economic support for the club on the condition his son remains DoF

The only other poster I've seen advance this view is you - in your case over about a month in numerous posts on lots of different threads

However, I'm yet to hear any evidence or reasoning for this view

It doesn't appear to be supported by any facts or evidence - you can't read Khan's mind - just pure conjecture

And it's not based on any logical reasoning either. Why would Khan perpuate a situation that undermines the success of FFC, decreases the value of his investment, harms his popularity and professional reputation, wastes his money, and exposes his beloved son to the public humiliation and abuse brought by his inevitable failure in the DoF role?

I cannot see why Shahid Khan, if he's a rational individual seeking to support the best interests of FFC and his son, would persist with TK in the DoF role (or, if he removes him, be any less willing to support a new DOF). Please explain, what I am I missing?

Quote from: Statto on March 04, 2019, 01:10:14 AM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 03, 2019, 11:33:21 PM
"It could be a hell-of-a lot worse with DOF that no access to new equity to buy players"

a DOF without any money for transfers and to pay wages is far worse off

they won't be as getting more money every time that mess up

Despite Colinwhite and I being rude to each other further up this thread, I think, as you seem to as well, that we largely agree on most aspects of the debate about our chairman
The specific point on which I disagreed with Colinwhite is the idea that Shahid Khan will only sustain his current level of economic support for the club on the condition his son remains DoF

The only other poster I've seen advance this view is you - in your case over about a month in numerous posts on lots of different threads

However, I'm yet to hear any evidence or reasoning for this view


It doesn't appear to be supported by any facts or evidence - you can't read Khan's mind - just pure conjecture

And it's not based on any logical reasoning either. Why would Khan perpuate a situation that undermines the success of FFC, decreases the value of his investment, harms his popularity and professional reputation, wastes his money, and exposes his beloved son to the public humiliation and abuse brought by his inevitable failure in the DoF role?

I cannot see why Shahid Khan, if he's a rational individual seeking to support the best interests of FFC and his son, would persist with TK in the DoF role (or, if he removes him, be any less willing to support a new DOF). Please explain, what I am I missing?

You are right that my viewpoint is not supported by any real facts or evidence about Shadid Khan, so is just pure conjecture. But, your opinion is conjecture and you also cannot read his mind, so we are left with what is we do know and what is logical.

What we know is i) Tony Khan was never the most qualified person for the job, but Shadid Khan gave the job to him anyway indicating to me this is an expensive hobby for his son; ii) if FFC is a financial investment "the act of putting into something to make a profit or dividend", then it is an investment that has never delivered one pence of profit in the past (and my opinion never will unless you sell something), so more likely it is a hobby or at least I hope its a hobby.

The simple truth is whatever the reason that Shadid Khan is giving equity to the Fulham DoF for players, once that reason disappears he will stop giving money to the Fulham DOF. If the reason is that "the current DoF is his son" or "the current DoF has convinced him that its great idea to pump money in the team", then removing the current DoF may spell disaster.

Any reason is conjecture, but i say FFC fans that think that Shadid Khan's support of a "DoF that is not his son" would be as good is massive conjecture. If you don't believe Shadid Khan wouldn't preference his son (by giving him more equity for transfer budget as DoF), then please explain how TK got the job as DoF in the first place.

The assumption that FFC fans can effectively sack the owner son and get the same level of support from the owner is a wild assumption, and in my opinion 'without me having any evidence" is probably a wrong assumption.

Importantly, if we can keep Tony Khan as DoF but find him the right advisor to whisper in his ear, we can get the best of both worlds (a DoF with SK's money and some football experts wisdom).

I think too much emphasis is made of TK being DOF, and the stats  based approach to transfers which he  supposedly heads, when our main problems stem from coming up with so many loanees in the squad, and one important player, Ferdinand,  keen to leave, though Christie had  been acquired to cover this position.

So we brought in too many players to be integrated into the team in such a short time, and these were often the wrong players. But we did bring in needed cb's - Mawson, and Chambers, though one was still recovering from injury - an error here, when this has happened to us  before, you would think, but motivated by urgency to fill this position with Prem quality presumably.

So we bought a lot of players, whom it was hard to fit into the team, and  weren't good enough, or injured. But how much was this TK's fault, when there was an urgency to bring in players in a short time, just to put a Prem quality team out.

Obviously, the best thing is if you come up with your Championship  squad just needing  two or three quality additions to compete  the Prem, but this wasn't the case with us - or wasn't thought to be , after the loans had returned, and Targett wasn't bought because of Saints' putting up the price though Mitro was bought, and Cairney and Sess retained.

Slavisa obviously didn't think the  team was good enough, because otherwise he might have integrated the new players gradually, though he chose not to play Mawson when he was fit, an Chambers was found wanting at cb, so we kept playing Odoi and Ream in this position, and are still playing them- though now Nordtveit is doing qite well, with Odoi gnerally doing well, though with errors, like sll our defenders, at rb. They have performed heroically, but we lack defensive Prem quality across the back four.

So I don't think it's right  lay all he blame at TK's  door, when  he presumably is just the head of a team involved in scouting and transfers, but he should get someone high profile in the game  appointed to work with him on transfers, and make sure everyone knows about this

Your doing it again Statto .My point wasnt that Mr Khan will no longer supply the funds if his son is not in charge of transfers . I was simply making the point that it would be worth considering the idea that it might be a possibillity, and was particularly directed  as an obsevation to the fans crying for TKs  head. There is a distinct difference between my observation and how you simplify it !!

Quote from: colinwhite on March 04, 2019, 05:41:03 AM
Your doing it again Statto .My point wasnt that Mr Khan will no longer supply the funds if his son is not in charge of transfers .

Your exact words were "Seems niave to me to assume that the spending will continue if TK was to get the boot."

Sorry if I've misinterpreted but isn't that pretty unequivocal?

ok,sorry if that wasnt clear. I was really pointing out to those who refer to TK as naive and unfit for the job  and that he should be  out , that that was also a bit naive,given the circumstances and thus be careful what they wish for. No bad feelings from me either way Statto.

TK has never been my hero or anti-hero and so I really don't understand the OP's point of view that he is, was an easy target, and a naive one at that.  The OP is being naive in thinking you can have a good business built around bad ideas, inadequate staffing, and relationships built on anything but trust, respect and ability, not things you regularly find in families because bond and blood rule over everything else..... mostly

Quote from: colinwhite on March 04, 2019, 08:07:16 AM
ok,sorry if that wasnt clear. I was really pointing out to those who refer to TK as naive and unfit for the job  and that he should be  out , that that was also a bit naive,given the circumstances and thus be careful what they wish for. No bad feelings from me either way Statto.

Fair enough, I generally agree with most of your posts anyway
Coyw

Toshes mate  where do you get "thinking you can have a good business model built around bad ideas". agree thats naive but it certainly didnt come from me. getting a bit fed up with being quoted for things neither stated ,posted or thought.

Quote from: colinwhite on March 04, 2019, 09:04:32 AM
Toshes mate  where do you get "thinking you can have a good business model built around bad ideas". agree thats naive but it certainly didnt come from me. getting a bit fed up with being quoted for things neither stated ,posted or thought.

It is my way of saying that if there is one fault in a structure (e.g. bad nepotism, inadequate ability, poor judgement) the structure will fail as stresses increase.  When you have multiple faults because of the knock on effect of any other fault then the structure will suffer a disastrous collapse rather than creaking and sighing. The Club has had many chances to rectify the sole initial fault - nepotism without control.   

If we agree that Shad K has the interests of the club at heart, and I think most of us do, then eventually he should decide to move his son out of the DoF role (however reluctantly).  Having made such a significant change of approach then I think we could reasonably assume he would continue to make transfer funds available. Otherwise why bother to go through all the personal plain of reassigning his son into a different role?

i hope so .

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 02:49:38 AM
If you don't believe Shadid Khan wouldn't preference his son (by giving him more equity for transfer budget as DoF), then please explain how TK got the job as DoF in the first place.

My guess, and surely most would agree what was most likely, is Shahid Khan thought Tony could be successful in the DoF role.

I accept Shahid may have had doubts, and have given Tony the benefit of the doubt, but I think it very unlikely he expected Tony to waste £100m, get relegated and undo four years' hard work, and end up on the receiving end of Twitter abuse, fans' protest banners, etc.

You seem to be suggesting that Shahid knew Tony would be this poor and "preferenced his son" by giving him the job anyway. I think that highly unlikely, because as I said above, ultimately that outcome has been harmful not only to Fulham, but also to Tony.

Quote from: Twig on March 04, 2019, 09:26:09 AM
If we agree that Shad K has the interests of the club at heart, and I think most of us do, then eventually he should decide to move his son out of the DoF role (however reluctantly).  Having made such a significant change of approach then I think we could reasonably assume he would continue to make transfer funds available. Otherwise why bother to go through all the personal plain of reassigning his son into a different role?

I do agree that SK likely has the best interest of the club at heart, but that surely only translates to him removing TK under the assumption that SK agrees that TK is the (or one of the) problem(s). I agree however that if he has (and will continue to have) our best at heart, then removing TK would not mean that funds are not made available.

For what it's worth, I believe that we would likely be better off without TK as DoF (of course assuming we get a decent replacement), but the important part is of course what SK thinks. I wouldn't be surprised if SK agrees, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't.

Quote from: Statto on March 04, 2019, 10:27:23 AM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 02:49:38 AM
If you don't believe Shadid Khan wouldn't preference his son (by giving him more equity for transfer budget as DoF), then please explain how TK got the job as DoF in the first place.

My guess, and surely most would agree what was most likely, is Shahid Khan thought Tony could be successful in the DoF role.

Shahid may have had doubts, and have given Tony the benefit of the doubt, but I think it very unlikely he expected Tony to waste £100m, get relegated and undo four years' hard work, and end up on the receiving end of Twitter abuse and fans' protest banners.

You seem to be suggesting that Shahid knew Tony would be this poor and gave him the job anyway. I think that highly unlikely, because as I said above, ultimately that outcome has been harmful to both Fulham and Tony.

:plus one:

Quote from: Sting of the North on March 04, 2019, 10:31:49 AM

Quote from: Twig on March 04, 2019, 09:26:09 AM
If we agree that Shad K has the interests of the club at heart, and I think most of us do, then eventually he should decide to move his son out of the DoF role (however reluctantly).  Having made such a significant change of approach then I think we could reasonably assume he would continue to make transfer funds available. Otherwise why bother to go through all the personal plain of reassigning his son into a different role?

I do agree that SK likely has the best interest of the club at heart, but that surely only translates to him removing TK under the assumption that SK agrees that TK is the (or one of the) problem(s). I agree however that if he has (and will continue to have) our best at heart, then removing TK would not mean that funds are not made available.

For what it's worth, I believe that we would likely be better off without TK as DoF (of course assuming we get a decent replacement), but the important part is of course what SK thinks. I wouldn't be surprised if SK agrees, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't.

SK is a proud man and a proud father.  Why wouldn't he believe in his son's ability to make good with his bespoke analytics system?  What is less favourable to SK's situation would have been blind faith, and only SK can inform as to whether or not his belief in his son was suspect to the point of fault at the time he a) purchased FFC and b) made him a most significant wheel in the whole machine.  Regardless of how we feel about it he was and is entitled to make those decisions an we are equally entitled to praise or vilify his decisions.

Whatever others believe my feelings are about TK, I will always allow him the latitude to come good in whatever way he manifests that and I will give him credit when he does so.  I think it is important that everyone on this board realises that we all deal with the life of FFC as moments in time and our comments tend to reflect those moments in time.   I try not to get too elated about the high spots and not too depressed about the down times.  But I get very frustrated by silliness in actions when it is far easier for a key player to be sensible and contribute in a sensible manner.  SK and TK have neglected the sensible option far too often for my taste.

Quote from: Twig on March 04, 2019, 09:26:09 AM
If we agree that Shad K has the interests of the club at heart, and I think most of us do, then eventually he should decide to move his son out of the DoF role (however reluctantly).  Having made such a significant change of approach then I think we could reasonably assume he would continue to make transfer funds available. Otherwise why bother to go through all the personal plain of reassigning his son into a different role?

Your logic is: if Shadid Khan sacks Tony Khan, then before June 2019 the new DoF will convince SK to give FFC the maximium £35m of new Equity investment as per allowed by FFP Rules. You're probably correct, but it could go either way.

If SK doesn't give the DoF another £35m in june 2019, then the new DoF will be slashing the wage bill (but we don't have a big wages to slash) and selling players replacing them with youth players (with the only players worth selling being Mawson, Seri, Cainrey, Mitro and Sessegnon).

If SK does give the DoF £35m this summer, then the DoF isn't going to do much this summer except use that money to keep our top players (like Mawson, Seri, Cairney and Mitro) and buy a few of the current/past loan players interest in the championship (maybe Nordveidt, Kalas, Babel, Markovoic, Vietto or Piazon etc).

Either way it is whether SK provides £35m this summer that makes the biggest difference, and very little to do with who is the DoF IMO.

Quote from: Sting of the North on March 04, 2019, 10:32:36 AM

Quote from: Statto on March 04, 2019, 10:27:23 AM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 02:49:38 AM
If you don't believe Shadid Khan wouldn't preference his son (by giving him more equity for transfer budget as DoF), then please explain how TK got the job as DoF in the first place.

My guess, and surely most would agree what was most likely, is Shahid Khan thought Tony could be successful in the DoF role.

Shahid may have had doubts, and have given Tony the benefit of the doubt, but I think it very unlikely he expected Tony to waste £100m, get relegated and undo four years' hard work, and end up on the receiving end of Twitter abuse and fans' protest banners.

You seem to be suggesting that Shahid knew Tony would be this poor and gave him the job anyway. I think that highly unlikely, because as I said above, ultimately that outcome has been harmful to both Fulham and Tony.

:plus one:

I don't believe SK thought his son would be poor and I'm not sure he blames his son now. I was trying to imply that SK biasely believed in and supports his son more than other DoFs, which includes more financial help and forgiveness of mistakes.

And I don't accept FFC has undo four years' hard work, because by going up we have managed to get four year contracts for 1) Fabri, 2) Christie,  3)Bryan, 4) Mawson, 5) MLM, 6) Anguissa, 8) Seri, 9) Mitro, 10) Cairney, 11) Kamara with acceptable wage bill that two years of parchate payments can cover. IMO, FFC are better positioned to enter compete in the Championship than anytime since 2000-01.

As for the belief that that recruitment over the summer wasn't good enough to compete, I don't accept that but i do think we needed more time (like a year more) to gel. I think our contracted squad last season was thread bare and frankly our 23 unbeaten run was thanks to loan players and no injuries. The 17/18 was get back in the EPL, get more EPL money including promised parchate payments and then work out how to stay up or if that doesn't work at least have a Championship team with money to get up.

At the start of the summer, we pulled together a squad slightly more expensive than other teams in one transfer window and while our players may be a little better than others team, their superior teamwork, chemistry and on field form produced better results. If we can get this team back in the EPL, then the team work will be much better and i rpedict we will survive relegation.

As for Tony Khan wasting £100m, let me reminded you that number includes Mitrovoic and it also includes players TK signed before Mitrovoic (like Seri, MLM, Fabri and Schullre's loan) that helped make Mitro sign.

The book value of the £100m of signings be £76m in the summer and SK would probably be happy to write off the £35m FFP allows (paying off what remains of Anguissa, Mawson and Fabri transfer fee), leaving the book value @ £41m (which Mitro 27m, Seri, MLM and Bryan are easily worth combined).

Of course, we can get into the Tony Khan had nothing to do with signing Mitrovoic debate, but I doubt that is TKs version of events and whatever the truth, probably SK's version of events includes his son as instrumental in the Mitrovoic signing.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 12:10:01 PM

Quote from: Sting of the North on March 04, 2019, 10:32:36 AM

Quote from: Statto on March 04, 2019, 10:27:23 AM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 02:49:38 AM
If you don't believe Shadid Khan wouldn't preference his son (by giving him more equity for transfer budget as DoF), then please explain how TK got the job as DoF in the first place.

My guess, and surely most would agree what was most likely, is Shahid Khan thought Tony could be successful in the DoF role.

Shahid may have had doubts, and have given Tony the benefit of the doubt, but I think it very unlikely he expected Tony to waste £100m, get relegated and undo four years' hard work, and end up on the receiving end of Twitter abuse and fans' protest banners.

You seem to be suggesting that Shahid knew Tony would be this poor and gave him the job anyway. I think that highly unlikely, because as I said above, ultimately that outcome has been harmful to both Fulham and Tony.

:plus one:

I don't believe SK thought his son would be poor and I'm not sure he blames his son now. I was trying to imply that SK biasely believed in and supports his son more than other DoFs, which includes more financial help and forgiveness of mistakes.

And I don't accept FFC has undo four years' hard work, because by going up we have managed to get four year contracts for 1) Fabri, 2) Christie,  3)Bryan, 4) Mawson, 5) MLM, 6) Anguissa, 8) Seri, 9) Mitro, 10) Cairney, 11) Kamara with acceptable wage bill that two years of parchate payments can cover. IMO, FFC are better positioned to enter compete in the Championship than anytime since 2000-01.

As for the belief that that recruitment over the summer wasn't good enough to compete, I don't accept that but i do think we needed more time (like a year more) to gel. I think our contracted squad last season was thread bare and frankly our 23 unbeaten run was thanks to loan players and no injuries. The 17/18 was get back in the EPL, get more EPL money including promised parchate payments and then work out how to stay up or if that doesn't work at least have a Championship team with money to get up.

At the start of the summer, we pulled together a squad slightly more expensive than other teams in one transfer window and while our players may be a little better than others team, their superior teamwork, chemistry and on field form produced better results. If we can get this team back in the EPL, then the team work will be much better and i rpedict we will survive relegation.

As for Tony Khan wasting £100m, let me reminded you that number includes Mitrovoic and it also includes players TK signed before Mitrovoic (like Seri, MLM, Fabri and Schullre's loan) that helped make Mitro sign.

The book value of the £100m of signings be £76m in the summer and SK would probably be happy to write off the £35m FFP allows (paying off what remains of Anguissa, Mawson and Fabri transfer fee), leaving the book value @ £41m (which Mitro 27m, Seri, MLM and Bryan are easily worth combined).

Of course, we can get into the Tony Khan had nothing to do with signing Mitrovoic debate, but I doubt that is TKs version of events and whatever the truth, probably SK's version of events includes his son as instrumental in the Mitrovoic signing.

How do you work out the book value of those signings at £76m?

Mitrovic may have increased in value, all the others, in my opinion, would have done down significantly.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 12:10:01 PM
As for the belief that that recruitment over the summer wasn't good enough to compete, I don't accept that but i do think we needed more time (like a year more) to gel.

This quote is, however, wholly irrational, since recruitment - (in your words) to be good enough to compete - needed to compete from game one and not gel (in your words) by the end of the season. 

Football is a team sport and that 'team' includes everybody from owner to casual employees.  When teams click they normally do well.  When teams do not click they do badly.  The art of football is mainly about ensuring the click happens more often than it doesn't, and, this season, it simply hasn't happened.  Who is to most to blame for clicking failure, if anyone is to blame, is largely the reason why this forum thrives in bad times just as it does so in good times.  However, defending individuals or blaming them requires a considerable effort to produce hard evidence rather than soft opinion which is why these threads can be interesting or boring according to taste.  Mitro joined us because he helped us win promotion and we stumped up the cash.  The cash was FFC's to stump up (i.e. no longer the Khans' money at that stage) and so the signing was a 'team' signing based on the period immediately after Mitro joined us.   

Quote from: Penfold on March 04, 2019, 01:07:53 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 12:10:01 PM

Quote from: Sting of the North on March 04, 2019, 10:32:36 AM

Quote from: Statto on March 04, 2019, 10:27:23 AM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 02:49:38 AM
If you don't believe Shadid Khan wouldn't preference his son (by giving him more equity for transfer budget as DoF), then please explain how TK got the job as DoF in the first place.

My guess, and surely most would agree what was most likely, is Shahid Khan thought Tony could be successful in the DoF role.

Shahid may have had doubts, and have given Tony the benefit of the doubt, but I think it very unlikely he expected Tony to waste £100m, get relegated and undo four years' hard work, and end up on the receiving end of Twitter abuse and fans' protest banners.

You seem to be suggesting that Shahid knew Tony would be this poor and gave him the job anyway. I think that highly unlikely, because as I said above, ultimately that outcome has been harmful to both Fulham and Tony.

:plus one:

I don't believe SK thought his son would be poor and I'm not sure he blames his son now. I was trying to imply that SK biasely believed in and supports his son more than other DoFs, which includes more financial help and forgiveness of mistakes.

And I don't accept FFC has undo four years' hard work, because by going up we have managed to get four year contracts for 1) Fabri, 2) Christie,  3)Bryan, 4) Mawson, 5) MLM, 6) Anguissa, 8) Seri, 9) Mitro, 10) Cairney, 11) Kamara with acceptable wage bill that two years of parchate payments can cover. IMO, FFC are better positioned to enter compete in the Championship than anytime since 2000-01.

As for the belief that that recruitment over the summer wasn't good enough to compete, I don't accept that but i do think we needed more time (like a year more) to gel. I think our contracted squad last season was thread bare and frankly our 23 unbeaten run was thanks to loan players and no injuries. The 17/18 was get back in the EPL, get more EPL money including promised parchate payments and then work out how to stay up or if that doesn't work at least have a Championship team with money to get up.

At the start of the summer, we pulled together a squad slightly more expensive than other teams in one transfer window and while our players may be a little better than others team, their superior teamwork, chemistry and on field form produced better results. If we can get this team back in the EPL, then the team work will be much better and i rpedict we will survive relegation.

As for Tony Khan wasting £100m, let me reminded you that number includes Mitrovoic and it also includes players TK signed before Mitrovoic (like Seri, MLM, Fabri and Schullre's loan) that helped make Mitro sign.

The book value of the £100m of signings be £76m in the summer and SK would probably be happy to write off the £35m FFP allows (paying off what remains of Anguissa, Mawson and Fabri transfer fee), leaving the book value @ £41m (which Mitro 27m, Seri, MLM and Bryan are easily worth combined).

Of course, we can get into the Tony Khan had nothing to do with signing Mitrovoic debate, but I doubt that is TKs version of events and whatever the truth, probably SK's version of events includes his son as instrumental in the Mitrovoic signing.

How do you work out the book value of those signings at £76m?

Mitrovic may have increased in value, all the others, in my opinion, would have done down significantly.

The £76m book value is purely an accounting number that appears on the balance sheet, related to who much paid and the length of their contracts. For example, if we buy Anguissa for £25m on a five year his book value is £20m after one year, regardless of his real value. If the DOF see his value as lower than 20m after one year, he has to impair his value and cut wages. Under FFP rules we have to cut wages when we impair over £35m (so we can only devalue Anguissa, Mawson and Fabri to zero.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 11:09:47 AM

Quote from: Twig on March 04, 2019, 09:26:09 AM
If we agree that Shad K has the interests of the club at heart, and I think most of us do, then eventually he should decide to move his son out of the DoF role (however reluctantly).  Having made such a significant change of approach then I think we could reasonably assume he would continue to make transfer funds available. Otherwise why bother to go through all the personal plain of reassigning his son into a different role?

Your logic is: if Shadid Khan sacks Tony Khan, then before June 2019 the new DoF will convince SK to give FFC the maximium £35m of new Equity investment as per allowed by FFP Rules. You're probably correct, but it could go either way.

If SK doesn't give the DoF another £35m in june 2019, then the new DoF will be slashing the wage bill (but we don't have a big wages to slash) and selling players replacing them with youth players (with the only players worth selling being Mawson, Seri, Cainrey, Mitro and Sessegnon).

If SK does give the DoF £35m this summer, then the DoF isn't going to do much this summer except use that money to keep our top players (like Mawson, Seri, Cairney and Mitro) and buy a few of the current/past loan players interest in the championship (maybe Nordveidt, Kalas, Babel, Markovoic, Vietto or Piazon etc).

Either way it is whether SK provides £35m this summer that makes the biggest difference, and very little to do with who is the DoF IMO.

I didn't say when SK might arrive at the decision to reassign (not sack) his son, I said eventually.  The DoF does more than authorise transfers and I am absolutely clear that a suitably qualified person would make a big difference.  You keep quoting £35m as the summer investment budget but repeating doesn't make the number any more accurate. There is so much that can happen between now and whenever TK moves over.  All I know is that when he does I want a qualified person in charge.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 01:52:18 PM

Quote from: Penfold on March 04, 2019, 01:07:53 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 12:10:01 PM

Quote from: Sting of the North on March 04, 2019, 10:32:36 AM

Quote from: Statto on March 04, 2019, 10:27:23 AM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 02:49:38 AM
If you don't believe Shadid Khan wouldn't preference his son (by giving him more equity for transfer budget as DoF), then please explain how TK got the job as DoF in the first place.

My guess, and surely most would agree what was most likely, is Shahid Khan thought Tony could be successful in the DoF role.

Shahid may have had doubts, and have given Tony the benefit of the doubt, but I think it very unlikely he expected Tony to waste £100m, get relegated and undo four years' hard work, and end up on the receiving end of Twitter abuse and fans' protest banners.

You seem to be suggesting that Shahid knew Tony would be this poor and gave him the job anyway. I think that highly unlikely, because as I said above, ultimately that outcome has been harmful to both Fulham and Tony.

:plus one:

I don't believe SK thought his son would be poor and I'm not sure he blames his son now. I was trying to imply that SK biasely believed in and supports his son more than other DoFs, which includes more financial help and forgiveness of mistakes.

And I don't accept FFC has undo four years' hard work, because by going up we have managed to get four year contracts for 1) Fabri, 2) Christie,  3)Bryan, 4) Mawson, 5) MLM, 6) Anguissa, 8) Seri, 9) Mitro, 10) Cairney, 11) Kamara with acceptable wage bill that two years of parchate payments can cover. IMO, FFC are better positioned to enter compete in the Championship than anytime since 2000-01.

As for the belief that that recruitment over the summer wasn't good enough to compete, I don't accept that but i do think we needed more time (like a year more) to gel. I think our contracted squad last season was thread bare and frankly our 23 unbeaten run was thanks to loan players and no injuries. The 17/18 was get back in the EPL, get more EPL money including promised parchate payments and then work out how to stay up or if that doesn't work at least have a Championship team with money to get up.

At the start of the summer, we pulled together a squad slightly more expensive than other teams in one transfer window and while our players may be a little better than others team, their superior teamwork, chemistry and on field form produced better results. If we can get this team back in the EPL, then the team work will be much better and i rpedict we will survive relegation.

As for Tony Khan wasting £100m, let me reminded you that number includes Mitrovoic and it also includes players TK signed before Mitrovoic (like Seri, MLM, Fabri and Schullre's loan) that helped make Mitro sign.

The book value of the £100m of signings be £76m in the summer and SK would probably be happy to write off the £35m FFP allows (paying off what remains of Anguissa, Mawson and Fabri transfer fee), leaving the book value @ £41m (which Mitro 27m, Seri, MLM and Bryan are easily worth combined).

Of course, we can get into the Tony Khan had nothing to do with signing Mitrovoic debate, but I doubt that is TKs version of events and whatever the truth, probably SK's version of events includes his son as instrumental in the Mitrovoic signing.

How do you work out the book value of those signings at £76m?

Mitrovic may have increased in value, all the others, in my opinion, would have done down significantly.

The £76m book value is purely an accounting number that appears on the balance sheet, related to who much paid and the length of their contracts. For example, if we buy Anguissa for £25m on a five year his book value is £20m after one year, regardless of his real value. If the DOF see his value as lower than 20m after one year, he has to impair his value and cut wages. Under FFP rules we have to cut wages when we impair over £35m (so we can only devalue Anguissa, Mawson and Fabri to zero.

A balance sheet figure is not necessarily the actual value of an asset. There would be some accounting rationale. However, a footballer isn't exactly like a piece of real estate. The value is what someone would be prepared to pay for them.

Quote from: toshes mate on March 04, 2019, 01:13:05 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 12:10:01 PM
As for the belief that that recruitment over the summer wasn't good enough to compete, I don't accept that but i do think we needed more time (like a year more) to gel.

This quote is, however, wholly irrational, since recruitment - (in your words) to be good enough to compete - needed to compete from game one and not gel (in your words) by the end of the season. 

Football is a team sport and that 'team' includes everybody from owner to casual employees.  When teams click they normally do well.  When teams do not click they do badly.  The art of football is mainly about ensuring the click happens more often than it doesn't, and, this season, it simply hasn't happened.  Who is to most to blame for clicking failure, if anyone is to blame, is largely the reason why this forum thrives in bad times just as it does so in good times.  However, defending individuals or blaming them requires a considerable effort to produce hard evidence rather than soft opinion which is why these threads can be interesting or boring according to taste.  Mitro joined us because he helped us win promotion and we stumped up the cash.  The cash was FFC's to stump up (i.e. no longer the Khans' money at that stage) and so the signing was a 'team' signing based on the period immediately after Mitro joined us.   

You ask who is to blame for this years bad results, well I'll put two decisions that i consider the right ones for FFC long-term that greatly contributed to Fulham problems this year and both decisions the person most responsible was Tony Khan. The first was for the 17/18 squad that focused on getting promoted before parchate payments ran out rather than building a premier league ready squad (this included lots of loan players, slow players suited to championship and not a great centre backs. The second decision was when we went up to buy players that will be good in premier league for years even it takes them time to adjust rather than buying experienced that are just good enough to avoid relegation. Both decisions combined make the amount of time to gel longer, especially as Jokavoics style takes a time to understand and most of the players are basically not suited to Ranieri style anyway. The real test for the DoF if we get relegated do we have a better team than our last season in the Championship (i think we will) and will we have the chemistry to make it happen (i border between optimism and pessimism on this count).

Quote from: toshes mate on March 04, 2019, 01:13:05 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 12:10:01 PM
As for the belief that that recruitment over the summer wasn't good enough to compete, I don't accept that but i do think we needed more time (like a year more) to gel.

This quote is, however, wholly irrational, since recruitment - (in your words) to be good enough to compete - needed to compete from game one and not gel (in your words) by the end of the season. 

Football is a team sport and that 'team' includes everybody from owner to casual employees.  When teams click they normally do well.  When teams do not click they do badly.  The art of football is mainly about ensuring the click happens more often than it doesn't, and, this season, it simply hasn't happened.  Who is to most to blame for clicking failure, if anyone is to blame, is largely the reason why this forum thrives in bad times just as it does so in good times.  However, defending individuals or blaming them requires a considerable effort to produce hard evidence rather than soft opinion which is why these threads can be interesting or boring according to taste.  Mitro joined us because he helped us win promotion and we stumped up the cash.  The cash was FFC's to stump up (i.e. no longer the Khans' money at that stage) and so the signing was a 'team' signing based on the period immediately after Mitro joined us.   

Tony Khan recruited a bunch of players over the summer that have signed for 4 years with Fulham include Fabri, Christie, Bryan, Mawson, MLM, Anguissa, Seri, Cairney, Mitro and Kamara. These players are good enough to compose the core of a premier league team, but as they haven't gelled this season they will have to do that via the championship and then compete on the premier league after wining that. If this team keeps this squad and bounces back into the premier league plus stays up they proved they are good enough to compete.

I believe one team that get relegated this season will get back into the premier league either next season or the season after. Let's make sure out of FFc, Huddersfield and probably Cardiff, let's make sure we are best placed to go up.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 02:12:26 PM
You ask who is to blame for this years bad results, well I'll put two decisions that i consider the right ones for FFC long-term that greatly contributed to Fulham problems this year and both decisions the person most responsible was Tony Khan. The first was for the 17/18 squad that focused on getting promoted before parchate payments ran out rather than building a premier league ready squad (this included lots of loan players, slow players suited to championship and not a great centre backs. The second decision was when we went up to buy players that will be good in premier league for years even it takes them time to adjust rather than buying experienced that are just good enough to avoid relegation. Both decisions combined make the amount of time to gel longer, especially as Jokavoics style takes a time to understand and most of the players are basically not suited to Ranieri style anyway. The real test for the DoF if we get relegated do we have a better team than our last season in the Championship (i think we will) and will we have the chemistry to make it happen (i border between optimism and pessimism on this count).

The 2017/18 squad per summer recruitment was put together without thought to the replacement of Malone and the tidying up of Fredericks's affairs at that time to secure him as an FFC player for the foreseeable future.  Of course there is the possibility both these issues were looked at. That appeared to hamper SJ's options in the early season with the same conundrum he had the previous year in dealing with attacks down our flanks making us vulnerable defensively.  A part of that may have been Aluko's sale. 

Although results picked up towards mid-season it was Targett and Mitro who made a big difference to our potential to attack and score regularly even when not playing at our best and with Cairney's injury worries and problems too.  That was a remarkable feat by our coaching personnel as a group and not down to TK or recruitment finesse.  I think self belief was what secured promotion. 

The summer of 2018 was the same TK poor mix as before not concentrating on key positions and instead chasing hype busting others.  We certainly needed central defenders but neither Chambers nor Mawson have been successful signings.  Chambers has come good in a box to box midfield role which he exploits to the limits and Mawson has been out of the side more often than being available.  Not his fault but certainly something TK should have been aware of, if not very wary of.   SP has taken his chance on the right foot and has given every indication he can foster a good spirit in the camp if nothing else, something Ranieri didn't do.  I am looking to SP to carry on one game at a time and seeing what the score is when his time as caretaker ends.  I am more optimistic of his nine games than I have been about any games since Anfield and I still see the season as alive until it is truly pronounced dead (thus dealing with your other TK suggestions).       

There is a version of reality that every bad signing is TK fault and every good signing had nothing to do with him, but either way he signs the cheque.

To imply TK recruitment was poor for the Championship winning season and to say Taggert and Mitrovoic made the difference, implies TK had nothing to with such signings, does anyone know that. I would think TK should be praised for Tagettt and Mitro especially if all he did was just sign and trust the manager.

TK get all the blame for the Mawson signing and yet i'm sure the doctor gave poor advice too. As for the Chambers decision thinking he's a CB amd backup RB, TK is hardly an idiot if he thought the same thing as Arsene Wenger and Roy Hodgson for England. I personally think any manager in the bottom half of the table would have loved to get Chambers on a £2m for one year bargain as a CB/RB.

i don't accept that TK recruited the 2nd worst players in the league, the team hasn't gelled yet and we look like the recruits of the summer of 2018, will need to prove themselves over 2019/20 and 20/21 to prove their value.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 09:43:15 PM
There is a version of reality that every bad signing is TK fault and every good signing had nothing to do with him, but either way he signs the cheque.

To imply TK recruitment was poor for the Championship winning season and to say Taggert and Mitrovoic made the difference, implies TK had nothing to with such signings, does anyone know that. I would think TK should be praised for Tagettt and Mitro especially if all he did was just sign and trust the manager.

TK get all the blame for the Mawson signing and yet i'm sure the doctor gave poor advice too. As for the Chambers decision thinking he's a CB amd backup RB, TK is hardly an idiot if he thought the same thing as Arsene Wenger and Roy Hodgson for England. I personally think any manager in the bottom half of the table would have loved to get Chambers on a £2m for one year bargain as a CB/RB.

i don't accept that TK recruited the 2nd worst players in the league, the team hasn't gelled yet and we look like the recruits of the summer of 2018, will need to prove themselves over 2019/20 and 20/21 to prove their value.

But chances are a fair few won't be at Fulham in 2019/20 or 2020/21.....

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 09:43:15 PM
There is a version of reality that every bad signing is TK fault and every good signing had nothing to do with him, but either way he signs the cheque.

To imply TK recruitment was poor for the Championship winning season and to say Taggert and Mitrovoic made the difference, implies TK had nothing to with such signings, does anyone know that. I would think TK should be praised for Tagettt and Mitro especially if all he did was just sign and trust the manager.

TK get all the blame for the Mawson signing and yet i'm sure the doctor gave poor advice too. As for the Chambers decision thinking he's a CB amd backup RB, TK is hardly an idiot if he thought the same thing as Arsene Wenger and Roy Hodgson for England. I personally think any manager in the bottom half of the table would have loved to get Chambers on a £2m for one year bargain as a CB/RB.

i don't accept that TK recruited the 2nd worst players in the league, the team hasn't gelled yet and we look like the recruits of the summer of 2018, will need to prove themselves over 2019/20 and 20/21 to prove their value.

The version of reality is for 11 consecutive transfer windows there have been big issues that have cost us.
TK is in charge of recuritment and therefore it is down to him, and if not him then it has to be his dad for allowing it.
Of course a few were good signings, but we got to many of the wrong players in the wrong positions and I site you the full backs, center half and tough central midfielder we all knew we needed and failed to get. I do not believe in the whole world there are not a few in each position that were actually available that we could have persuded to come. we also needed experienced players for the return to the Prem but they do not like older players. We alsi have far too manny loan sinings again.

If you cannot see that TK is a very big problem in trying to make Fulham a long term success thenthat is your opinion, it's not an individual error, is the mass of repeating errors.

The version of reality that is actually real and not just a bunch of over excited fans trying to heap all the problems of this season onto one man. Is that the signings were fine but we needed to find players for the problems in the squad we had before a ball was kicked. No right back, no centre half, no left back. Fill those with good quality players and we would have had a season of survival. But we didn't. But that happens whoever is in charge. Yes even the experts get it wrong and don't find the right deals for the right players.

Many fans still want to treat football and life as a pantomime and find a baddie they can boo and hiss at. I will tell you the biggest disappointment for me is that there is always the few fans who want to attack and beat up others in a discussion and debate. The worst thing about a poor season is not always the football but the need to split and divide fellow fans.

Quote from: ALG01 on March 04, 2019, 11:13:41 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 09:43:15 PM
There is a version of reality that every bad signing is TK fault and every good signing had nothing to do with him, but either way he signs the cheque.

To imply TK recruitment was poor for the Championship winning season and to say Taggert and Mitrovoic made the difference, implies TK had nothing to with such signings, does anyone know that. I would think TK should be praised for Tagettt and Mitro especially if all he did was just sign and trust the manager.

TK get all the blame for the Mawson signing and yet i'm sure the doctor gave poor advice too. As for the Chambers decision thinking he's a CB amd backup RB, TK is hardly an idiot if he thought the same thing as Arsene Wenger and Roy Hodgson for England. I personally think any manager in the bottom half of the table would have loved to get Chambers on a £2m for one year bargain as a CB/RB.

i don't accept that TK recruited the 2nd worst players in the league, the team hasn't gelled yet and we look like the recruits of the summer of 2018, will need to prove themselves over 2019/20 and 20/21 to prove their value.

The version of reality is for 11 consecutive transfer windows there have been big issues that have cost us.
TK is in charge of recuritment and therefore it is down to him, and if not him then it has to be his dad for allowing it.
Of course a few were good signings, but we got to many of the wrong players in the wrong positions and I site you the full backs, center half and tough central midfielder we all knew we needed and failed to get. I do not believe in the whole world there are not a few in each position that were actually available that we could have persuded to come. we also needed experienced players for the return to the Prem but they do not like older players. We alsi have far too manny loan sinings again.

If you cannot see that TK is a very big problem in trying to make Fulham a long term success thenthat is your opinion, it's not an individual error, is the mass of repeating errors.

What players signed for other relegation battlers that we should have signed? Where is the magically cheap defensive midfielder that is Premier League quality at a reasonable price?

Other clubs would point to Mitrovoic as a great signing for our level club, and surely Newcastle recruitment are morons for selling him. In the end, which club is doing really well at recruitment that is similar to us. Please avoid the top six, leicester, everton, west ham and wolves because they all had better options than us.

Personally, i think we lost to Cardiff, Huddersfield, Burnley, Southampton and drew with Brighton for reasons other than recruitment. And frankly, we should have one surprise win (like against leicester) per season, which would have had us between 25 and 33 points at the moment.

Jokavoic cane out in the media saying TK needed to buy cover for McDonald a few days before deadline day (SJ obviously didn't want Norwood). Tony Khan gets enormous criticism for spending £24m for cover, which is fair enough. TK clearly was looking for a better option otherwise why wait to deadline day, what was the other option? We know the price of Anguissa went up because other teams were bidding on him, indicating there wasn't much out there.

Quote from: Lighthouse on March 04, 2019, 11:30:43 PM
The version of reality that is actually real and not just a bunch of over excited fans trying to heap all the problems of this season onto one man. Is that the signings were fine but we needed to find players for the problems in the squad we had before a ball was kicked. No right back, no centre half, no left back. Fill those with good quality players and we would have had a season of survival. But we didn't. But that happens whoever is in charge. Yes even the experts get it wrong and don't find the right deals for the right players.

Many fans still want to treat football and life as a pantomime and find a baddie they can boo and hiss at. I will tell you the biggest disappointment for me is that there is always the few fans who want to attack and beat up others in a discussion and debate. The worst thing about a poor season is not always the football but the need to split and divide fellow fans.

excellent post.

Quote from: Lighthouse on March 04, 2019, 11:30:43 PM


Many fans still want to treat football and life as a pantomime and find a baddie they can boo and hiss at. I will tell you the biggest disappointment for me is that there is always the few fans who want to attack and beat up others in a discussion and debate.

All 100% true and this has been on the increase recently here.

Quote from: Lighthouse on March 04, 2019, 11:30:43 PM
The version of reality that is actually real and not just a bunch of over excited fans trying to heap all the problems of this season onto one man. Is that the signings were fine but we needed to find players for the problems in the squad we had before a ball was kicked. No right back, no centre half, no left back. Fill those with good quality players and we would have had a season of survival. But we didn't. But that happens whoever is in charge. Yes even the experts get it wrong and don't find the right deals for the right players.

Many fans still want to treat football and life as a pantomime and find a baddie they can boo and hiss at. I will tell you the biggest disappointment for me is that there is always the few fans who want to attack and beat up others in a discussion and debate. The worst thing about a poor season is not always the football but the need to split and divide fellow fans.

A good post, Lighthouse, but I do not believe this Forum is any better or any worse this season to any other season regarding assault and battery on these threads.  I have left this Forum alone for several weeks once before because I was tired of the accusations, irritated by a completely unwarranted warning as to my conduct from the mods at a time when FOF was in a turmoil.  It felt better when I returned.  It also felt better to PM mods when annoyed or concerned about something.

I almost left the Forum again last August, last October and at the time Nose recently left because of what I consider to be unpleasant and unnecessary attacks made on me and others by commenters who proclaim to be squeaky clean and may even privately squeal when they get a bit of their own back.   And all those posters know exactly who they are.   We all have a choice when we dislike a post and that is to ignore it if we do not wants matters to get out of hand. 

When we post a comment we expect others to read it in the way it is written but that doesn't always happen because people do not refer back up the thread to see where the discussion may have gone wrong long before someone gets upset and shows it using words. 

Well, for what it's worth Toshes Mate, I am glad you are still here in attendance, you are a breath of fresh air. But then again, that's what my first wife told me just before she filed for divorce.
Only joking, couldn't resist it, keep writing in your opinions, they are always absorbing, constructive, level headed and impartial.

Thank you for your kind words and support, WM.  We are all in this together, and it was in my 'bad times' that I realised just how important this Forum is to me, and how stupid and silly it is to allow anyone to try to make you feel inferior.  The best reaction is to always give it your best shot and to do the best you can to get a fair hearing from others.  I tried hard to support Nose but I feel he is so very passionately embroiled in the things that are wrong at FFC to deal with it in ways that may work for others.  I miss his contributions a great deal because he has a way of pressing the buttons of others, which is what a Forum thrives on, and hope he will one day return once more.  His self deprecating humour is what I miss most about him.

As for me I am here for the duration and I thank the moderators who have given me advice when I have needed it. Thinking through their feedback I have a much better handle on what this Forum is really all about and I would say 'none of us are precious unless each and every one of us is precious' slings and arrows notwithstanding.   

Quote from: toshes mate on March 05, 2019, 02:55:14 PM
Thank you for your kind words and support, WM.  We are all in this together, and it was in my 'bad times' that I realised just how important this Forum is to me, and how stupid and silly it is to allow anyone to try to make you feel inferior.  The best reaction is to always give it your best shot and to do the best you can to get a fair hearing from others.  I tried hard to support Nose but I feel he is so very passionately embroiled in the things that are wrong at FFC to deal with it in ways that may work for others.  I miss his contributions a great deal because he has a way of pressing the buttons of others, which is what a Forum thrives on, and hope he will one day return once more.  His self deprecating humour is what I miss most about him.

As for me I am here for the duration and I thank the moderators who have given me advice when I have needed it. Thinking through their feedback I have a much better handle on what this Forum is really all about and I would say 'none of us are precious unless each and every one of us is precious' slings and arrows notwithstanding.   

Good philosophy TM, 👍⚽️.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 11:32:39 PM

Quote from: ALG01 on March 04, 2019, 11:13:41 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 09:43:15 PM
There is a version of reality that every bad signing is TK fault and every good signing had nothing to do with him, but either way he signs the cheque.

To imply TK recruitment was poor for the Championship winning season and to say Taggert and Mitrovoic made the difference, implies TK had nothing to with such signings, does anyone know that. I would think TK should be praised for Tagettt and Mitro especially if all he did was just sign and trust the manager.

TK get all the blame for the Mawson signing and yet i'm sure the doctor gave poor advice too. As for the Chambers decision thinking he's a CB amd backup RB, TK is hardly an idiot if he thought the same thing as Arsene Wenger and Roy Hodgson for England. I personally think any manager in the bottom half of the table would have loved to get Chambers on a £2m for one year bargain as a CB/RB.

i don't accept that TK recruited the 2nd worst players in the league, the team hasn't gelled yet and we look like the recruits of the summer of 2018, will need to prove themselves over 2019/20 and 20/21 to prove their value.

The version of reality is for 11 consecutive transfer windows there have been big issues that have cost us.
TK is in charge of recuritment and therefore it is down to him, and if not him then it has to be his dad for allowing it.
Of course a few were good signings, but we got to many of the wrong players in the wrong positions and I site you the full backs, center half and tough central midfielder we all knew we needed and failed to get. I do not believe in the whole world there are not a few in each position that were actually available that we could have persuded to come. we also needed experienced players for the return to the Prem but they do not like older players. We alsi have far too manny loan sinings again.

If you cannot see that TK is a very big problem in trying to make Fulham a long term success thenthat is your opinion, it's not an individual error, is the mass of repeating errors.

What players signed for other relegation battlers that we should have signed? Where is the magically cheap defensive midfielder that is Premier League quality at a reasonable price?

Other clubs would point to Mitrovoic as a great signing for our level club, and surely Newcastle recruitment are morons for selling him. In the end, which club is doing really well at recruitment that is similar to us. Please avoid the top six, leicester, everton, west ham and wolves because they all had better options than us.

Personally, i think we lost to Cardiff, Huddersfield, Burnley, Southampton and drew with Brighton for reasons other than recruitment. And frankly, we should have one surprise win (like against leicester) per season, which would have had us between 25 and 33 points at the moment.

Jokavoic cane out in the media saying TK needed to buy cover for McDonald a few days before deadline day (SJ obviously didn't want Norwood). Tony Khan gets enormous criticism for spending £24m for cover, which is fair enough. TK clearly was looking for a better option otherwise why wait to deadline day, what was the other option? We know the price of Anguissa went up because other teams were bidding on him, indicating there wasn't much out there.

I have to say , I do not even begining to agree with what you are saying. We are entitled to our opinion and that is what all this is.

But I take the view that on a day it is the players, over a season usually the manager and over a longer term the owner/board that are responsible especially when things go wrong. All through summer we debated what sort of players we needed and when we needed them, as we do every summer, and this summer like all the previous ones since this ownership have been here, i have been astounded at how poor the judgments have been. The owners are the constant not the managers or players.

we knew what was needed for this season and clearly we did not do what was necessary, and it was avoidable. This is a business judgment and if you think the owners transfer policy is working you will leave well alone.
But if you think it is failing then it needs to be dealt with and in the end it needs to be dealt with; 11 poor transfer windows with Mitroglu being a real highlit, the inability to get shot of ruiz another and signing a sick note as a center half yet another in a spectacular misfiring in that deartment is hard to defend. I can also say that they undermined SJ who desparately wanted to keep Aluko but they sold, and actually we really missed him last season. SJ was shot in the foot as the season started totally unecessarilly.
They nrought in the wrong man to attempt to fix it and he made it worse.

Now if your opinion is rank bad management that was avoidable is a good way to run the team, then that is a perfectly valid opinion, but I invest far too much time and emotion to want our club lying injured in the gutter due to negligence and arrogance. I want it to be the best it can be.

Oh, and Mitro was straight down to SJ taking matters into his own hands as acknowledged all round and if you are trying to tell me in all the world there are not full backs and center halves better than those we have, in the wprds of the cocknies, you're having a larfff.

IMO TK is a very big problem because he is not capable, and out of his depth and but for his familly connection would have been gone at least 3 years ago. He probably would not have ever got a sniff of the job, and I am afraid however you cut the roulade, that is just a fact.

Quote from: ALG01 on March 05, 2019, 09:32:19 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 11:32:39 PM

Quote from: ALG01 on March 04, 2019, 11:13:41 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 09:43:15 PM
There is a version of reality that every bad signing is TK fault and every good signing had nothing to do with him, but either way he signs the cheque.

To imply TK recruitment was poor for the Championship winning season and to say Taggert and Mitrovoic made the difference, implies TK had nothing to with such signings, does anyone know that. I would think TK should be praised for Tagettt and Mitro especially if all he did was just sign and trust the manager.

TK get all the blame for the Mawson signing and yet i'm sure the doctor gave poor advice too. As for the Chambers decision thinking he's a CB amd backup RB, TK is hardly an idiot if he thought the same thing as Arsene Wenger and Roy Hodgson for England. I personally think any manager in the bottom half of the table would have loved to get Chambers on a £2m for one year bargain as a CB/RB.

i don't accept that TK recruited the 2nd worst players in the league, the team hasn't gelled yet and we look like the recruits of the summer of 2018, will need to prove themselves over 2019/20 and 20/21 to prove their value.

The version of reality is for 11 consecutive transfer windows there have been big issues that have cost us.
TK is in charge of recuritment and therefore it is down to him, and if not him then it has to be his dad for allowing it.
Of course a few were good signings, but we got to many of the wrong players in the wrong positions and I site you the full backs, center half and tough central midfielder we all knew we needed and failed to get. I do not believe in the whole world there are not a few in each position that were actually available that we could have persuded to come. we also needed experienced players for the return to the Prem but they do not like older players. We alsi have far too manny loan sinings again.

If you cannot see that TK is a very big problem in trying to make Fulham a long term success thenthat is your opinion, it's not an individual error, is the mass of repeating errors.

What players signed for other relegation battlers that we should have signed? Where is the magically cheap defensive midfielder that is Premier League quality at a reasonable price?

Other clubs would point to Mitrovoic as a great signing for our level club, and surely Newcastle recruitment are morons for selling him. In the end, which club is doing really well at recruitment that is similar to us. Please avoid the top six, leicester, everton, west ham and wolves because they all had better options than us.

Personally, i think we lost to Cardiff, Huddersfield, Burnley, Southampton and drew with Brighton for reasons other than recruitment. And frankly, we should have one surprise win (like against leicester) per season, which would have had us between 25 and 33 points at the moment.

Jokavoic cane out in the media saying TK needed to buy cover for McDonald a few days before deadline day (SJ obviously didn't want Norwood). Tony Khan gets enormous criticism for spending £24m for cover, which is fair enough. TK clearly was looking for a better option otherwise why wait to deadline day, what was the other option? We know the price of Anguissa went up because other teams were bidding on him, indicating there wasn't much out there.

I have to say , I do not even begining to agree with what you are saying. We are entitled to our opinion and that is what all this is.

But I take the view that on a day it is the players, over a season usually the manager and over a longer term the owner/board that are responsible especially when things go wrong. All through summer we debated what sort of players we needed and when we needed them, as we do every summer, and this summer like all the previous ones since this ownership have been here, i have been astounded at how poor the judgments have been. The owners are the constant not the managers or players.

we knew what was needed for this season and clearly we did not do what was necessary, and it was avoidable. This is a business judgment and if you think the owners transfer policy is working you will leave well alone.
But if you think it is failing then it needs to be dealt with and in the end it needs to be dealt with; 11 poor transfer windows with Mitroglu being a real highlit, the inability to get shot of ruiz another and signing a sick note as a center half yet another in a spectacular misfiring in that deartment is hard to defend. I can also say that they undermined SJ who desparately wanted to keep Aluko but they sold, and actually we really missed him last season. SJ was shot in the foot as the season started totally unecessarilly.
They nrought in the wrong man to attempt to fix it and he made it worse.

Now if your opinion is rank bad management that was avoidable is a good way to run the team, then that is a perfectly valid opinion, but I invest far too much time and emotion to want our club lying injured in the gutter due to negligence and arrogance. I want it to be the best it can be.

Oh, and Mitro was straight down to SJ taking matters into his own hands as acknowledged all round and if you are trying to tell me in all the world there are not full backs and center halves better than those we have, in the wprds of the cocknies, you're having a larfff.

IMO TK is a very big problem because he is not capable, and out of his depth and but for his familly connection would have been gone at least 3 years ago. He probably would not have ever got a sniff of the job, and I am afraid however you cut the roulade, that is just a fact.

ALG01, I agree with more or less all you say, which is a fact, I could not have put it better myself.
.

Quote from: toshes mate on March 05, 2019, 02:55:14 PM
Thank you for your kind words and support, WM.  We are all in this together, and it was in my 'bad times' that I realised just how important this Forum is to me, and how stupid and silly it is to allow anyone to try to make you feel inferior.  The best reaction is to always give it your best shot and to do the best you can to get a fair hearing from others.  I tried hard to support Nose but I feel he is so very passionately embroiled in the things that are wrong at FFC to deal with it in ways that may work for others.  I miss his contributions a great deal because he has a way of pressing the buttons of others, which is what a Forum thrives on, and hope he will one day return once more.  His self deprecating humour is what I miss most about him.

As for me I am here for the duration and I thank the moderators who have given me advice when I have needed it. Thinking through their feedback I have a much better handle on what this Forum is really all about and I would say 'none of us are precious unless each and every one of us is precious' slings and arrows notwithstanding.   

Always remember.. Everyone is entitled to their OWN opinion - BUT (and it's a big  BUT), not one opinion is worth more than the other. No matter how vocal x

Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.

Quote from: ALG01 on March 05, 2019, 09:32:19 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 11:32:39 PM

Quote from: ALG01 on March 04, 2019, 11:13:41 PM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 04, 2019, 09:43:15 PM
There is a version of reality that every bad signing is TK fault and every good signing had nothing to do with him, but either way he signs the cheque.

To imply TK recruitment was poor for the Championship winning season and to say Taggert and Mitrovoic made the difference, implies TK had nothing to with such signings, does anyone know that. I would think TK should be praised for Tagettt and Mitro especially if all he did was just sign and trust the manager.

TK get all the blame for the Mawson signing and yet i'm sure the doctor gave poor advice too. As for the Chambers decision thinking he's a CB amd backup RB, TK is hardly an idiot if he thought the same thing as Arsene Wenger and Roy Hodgson for England. I personally think any manager in the bottom half of the table would have loved to get Chambers on a £2m for one year bargain as a CB/RB.

i don't accept that TK recruited the 2nd worst players in the league, the team hasn't gelled yet and we look like the recruits of the summer of 2018, will need to prove themselves over 2019/20 and 20/21 to prove their value.

The version of reality is for 11 consecutive transfer windows there have been big issues that have cost us.
TK is in charge of recuritment and therefore it is down to him, and if not him then it has to be his dad for allowing it.
Of course a few were good signings, but we got to many of the wrong players in the wrong positions and I site you the full backs, center half and tough central midfielder we all knew we needed and failed to get. I do not believe in the whole world there are not a few in each position that were actually available that we could have persuded to come. we also needed experienced players for the return to the Prem but they do not like older players. We alsi have far too manny loan sinings again.

If you cannot see that TK is a very big problem in trying to make Fulham a long term success thenthat is your opinion, it's not an individual error, is the mass of repeating errors.

What players signed for other relegation battlers that we should have signed? Where is the magically cheap defensive midfielder that is Premier League quality at a reasonable price?

Other clubs would point to Mitrovoic as a great signing for our level club, and surely Newcastle recruitment are morons for selling him. In the end, which club is doing really well at recruitment that is similar to us. Please avoid the top six, leicester, everton, west ham and wolves because they all had better options than us.

Personally, i think we lost to Cardiff, Huddersfield, Burnley, Southampton and drew with Brighton for reasons other than recruitment. And frankly, we should have one surprise win (like against leicester) per season, which would have had us between 25 and 33 points at the moment.

Jokavoic cane out in the media saying TK needed to buy cover for McDonald a few days before deadline day (SJ obviously didn't want Norwood). Tony Khan gets enormous criticism for spending £24m for cover, which is fair enough. TK clearly was looking for a better option otherwise why wait to deadline day, what was the other option? We know the price of Anguissa went up because other teams were bidding on him, indicating there wasn't much out there.

I have to say , I do not even begining to agree with what you are saying. We are entitled to our opinion and that is what all this is.

But I take the view that on a day it is the players, over a season usually the manager and over a longer term the owner/board that are responsible especially when things go wrong. All through summer we debated what sort of players we needed and when we needed them, as we do every summer, and this summer like all the previous ones since this ownership have been here, i have been astounded at how poor the judgments have been. The owners are the constant not the managers or players.

we knew what was needed for this season and clearly we did not do what was necessary, and it was avoidable. This is a business judgment and if you think the owners transfer policy is working you will leave well alone.
But if you think it is failing then it needs to be dealt with and in the end it needs to be dealt with; 11 poor transfer windows with Mitroglu being a real highlit, the inability to get shot of ruiz another and signing a sick note as a center half yet another in a spectacular misfiring in that deartment is hard to defend. I can also say that they undermined SJ who desparately wanted to keep Aluko but they sold, and actually we really missed him last season. SJ was shot in the foot as the season started totally unecessarilly.
They nrought in the wrong man to attempt to fix it and he made it worse.

Now if your opinion is rank bad management that was avoidable is a good way to run the team, then that is a perfectly valid opinion, but I invest far too much time and emotion to want our club lying injured in the gutter due to negligence and arrogance. I want it to be the best it can be.

Oh, and Mitro was straight down to SJ taking matters into his own hands as acknowledged all round and if you are trying to tell me in all the world there are not full backs and center halves better than those we have, in the wprds of the cocknies, you're having a larfff.

IMO TK is a very big problem because he is not capable, and out of his depth and but for his familly connection would have been gone at least 3 years ago. He probably would not have ever got a sniff of the job, and I am afraid however you cut the roulade, that is just a fact.

It may or not be a fact. It is was it is ,and opinions on TKs competence or lack of arent going to change much.Lets hope he learns from the mistakes of this year, and thethe squad will be better balanced next season.

He will never learn, because he has not learnt from his mistakes of previous years, because he is neither qualified or has the knowledge, nor capability, and neither will anyone intent on defending him learn, and he won't thank you for it either. You would never ask your dog to watch your food would you ? In the same way as you would never back an animal that hasn't got a jockey on its back.

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on March 06, 2019, 06:12:00 AM
He will never learn, because he has not learnt from his mistakes of previous years, because he is neither qualified or has the knowledge, nor capability, and neither will anyone intent on defending him learn, and he won't thank you for it either. You would never ask your dog to watch your food would you ? In the same way as you would never back an animal that hasn't got a jockey on its back.

Well, I am of the belief that people can learn, and to say that someone cannot because he didn't learn it before or that he lacks the potential to do so is a little like the old saying that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. That saying is of course complete nonsense because you can indeed teach old dogs new tricks, and people can also indeed learn from past mistakes. If TK will do so in our case is anyone's guess, but as much as you would like it to appear to be so, it is indeed not set in stone. Many of your posts indicate that you can only see black or white (not saying that is the case, just pointing out that it is the impression I get from reading them) whereas I am convinced that most matters are of a various degrees of grey

I also think you confuse people's opinions and attempts at providing nuanced explanations as defending TK. It doesn't have to be the same thing.   

There is a goat always escaping from an animal rescue centre near me,they've named it Bartlett from the Great Escape.🐐

Whether or not we learn from experience depends largely upon our emotional input to and understanding of those experiences.  As an example if we fall in love with someone the value of our love depends upon the intended target's worth for us.  You hear of people always falling for the wrong people and so, internally, that equates to us never learning and, since emotions are involved the stresses and tolls upon us are very heavy.   Eventually something has to give, but does that mean you learn the lesson by never falling in love again?  Learning is such a tricky subject to talk about objectively unless it is about acquiring a skill that can be regularly tested and measured by both you and others e.g. a sport, a craft, a hobby etc. 

What worries me about TK is his obsession with his analytics methodology which his father has bought into and so have the senior executives at FFC by all accounts.  That means that TK is getting his positive feedback already and so he doesn't have to change anything.  He can invent all kinds of reasons why things appear to go wrong which will have nothing to do with any flaws in his system (the same flaws that exist in all other analytics system I might add) and so he maintains his obsessional belief via his own personal support networks that he can make mistakes but he can do no wrong.  Just as Ranieri apparently misread the boos when he made substitutions as statements about the players being subbed did Khan read the St Mary's banner as supporters saying the manager should be sacked rather than saying TK you made a big mistake in the first place by suggesting the Italian was 'risk free'.  There are egos at work at FFC and they are seemingly impervious to the problems some of us perceive as being the root causes of what is wrong. 

I don't think TK is capable of learning unless and until he accepts he has a hell of a lot of learning to do.  I am not sure that'll happen because he isn't in a position where he has to learn anything.  He has got it made already.

Quote from: Sting of the North on March 06, 2019, 09:06:01 AM

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on March 06, 2019, 06:12:00 AM
He will never learn, because he has not learnt from his mistakes of previous years, because he is neither qualified or has the knowledge, nor capability, and neither will anyone intent on defending him learn, and he won't thank you for it either. You would never ask your dog to watch your food would you ? In the same way as you would never back an animal that hasn't got a jockey on its back.

Well, I am of the belief that people can learn, and to say that someone cannot because he didn't learn it before or that he lacks the potential to do so is a little like the old saying that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. That saying is of course complete nonsense because you can indeed teach old dogs new tricks, and people can also indeed learn from past mistakes. If TK will do so in our case is anyone's guess, but as much as you would like it to appear to be so, it is indeed not set in stone. Many of your posts indicate that you can only see black or white (not saying that is the case, just pointing out that it is the impression I get from reading them) whereas I am convinced that most matters are of a various degrees of grey

I also think you confuse people's opinions and attempts at providing nuanced explanations as defending TK. It doesn't have to be the same thing.   

I thought Fulhams colours were black and white not grey, what I do see is the owners son completely out of his depth, and only in his job because of who he is.
The same person who brought in his best mate CK to reek carnage during his tenure at Fulham.
TK is not a football person, has no qualifications in association football, except that he is the son of his father, who has even less qualifications.
So it's you that only sees black and white, and are in denial and do not like the fact that I disagree with your rose tinted views of TK.
He is not being asked to learn the alphabet, it goes a lot deeper than that, he is earning a lucrative salary as a failure, and Fulham are haemorrhageing money because of him while he hides behind his fathers empire, and you think that's alright do you.
You need to join the out tray with your hero, as the pair of you deserve each other.
When fruit is rotten, it cannot ripen again.

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on March 06, 2019, 02:40:04 PM

Quote from: Sting of the North on March 06, 2019, 09:06:01 AM

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on March 06, 2019, 06:12:00 AM
He will never learn, because he has not learnt from his mistakes of previous years, because he is neither qualified or has the knowledge, nor capability, and neither will anyone intent on defending him learn, and he won't thank you for it either. You would never ask your dog to watch your food would you ? In the same way as you would never back an animal that hasn't got a jockey on its back.

Well, I am of the belief that people can learn, and to say that someone cannot because he didn't learn it before or that he lacks the potential to do so is a little like the old saying that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. That saying is of course complete nonsense because you can indeed teach old dogs new tricks, and people can also indeed learn from past mistakes. If TK will do so in our case is anyone's guess, but as much as you would like it to appear to be so, it is indeed not set in stone. Many of your posts indicate that you can only see black or white (not saying that is the case, just pointing out that it is the impression I get from reading them) whereas I am convinced that most matters are of a various degrees of grey

I also think you confuse people's opinions and attempts at providing nuanced explanations as defending TK. It doesn't have to be the same thing.   

I thought Fulhams colours were black and white not grey, what I do see is the owners son completely out of his depth, and only in his job because of who he is.
The same person who brought in his best mate CK to reek carnage during his tenure at Fulham.
TK is not a football person, has no qualifications in association football, except that he is the son of his father, who has even less qualifications.
So it's you that only sees black and white, and are in denial and do not like the fact that I disagree with your rose tinted views of TK.
He is not being asked to learn the alphabet, it goes a lot deeper than that, he is earning a lucrative salary as a failure, and Fulham are haemorrhageing money because of him while he hides behind his fathers empire, and you think that's alright do you.
You need to join the out tray with your hero, as the pair of you deserve each other.

It is unfortunate (although unfortunately not surprising) that your only actual reply to my post is being rude, making up things about what I have stated and then telling me to leave.

Quote from: Sting of the North on March 06, 2019, 02:52:00 PM

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on March 06, 2019, 02:40:04 PM

Quote from: Sting of the North on March 06, 2019, 09:06:01 AM

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on March 06, 2019, 06:12:00 AM
He will never learn, because he has not learnt from his mistakes of previous years, because he is neither qualified or has the knowledge, nor capability, and neither will anyone intent on defending him learn, and he won't thank you for it either. You would never ask your dog to watch your food would you ? In the same way as you would never back an animal that hasn't got a jockey on its back.

Well, I am of the belief that people can learn, and to say that someone cannot because he didn't learn it before or that he lacks the potential to do so is a little like the old saying that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. That saying is of course complete nonsense because you can indeed teach old dogs new tricks, and people can also indeed learn from past mistakes. If TK will do so in our case is anyone's guess, but as much as you would like it to appear to be so, it is indeed not set in stone. Many of your posts indicate that you can only see black or white (not saying that is the case, just pointing out that it is the impression I get from reading them) whereas I am convinced that most matters are of a various degrees of grey

I also think you confuse people's opinions and attempts at providing nuanced explanations as defending TK. It doesn't have to be the same thing.   

I thought Fulhams colours were black and white not grey, what I do see is the owners son completely out of his depth, and only in his job because of who he is.
The same person who brought in his best mate CK to reek carnage during his tenure at Fulham.
TK is not a football person, has no qualifications in association football, except that he is the son of his father, who has even less qualifications.
So it's you that only sees black and white, and are in denial and do not like the fact that I disagree with your rose tinted views of TK.
He is not being asked to learn the alphabet, it goes a lot deeper than that, he is earning a lucrative salary as a failure, and Fulham are haemorrhageing money because of him while he hides behind his fathers empire, and you think that's alright do you.
You need to join the out tray with your hero, as the pair of you deserve each other.

It is unfortunate (although far from surprising) that your only actual reply to my post is being rude and saying that I should leave. Just as you had to call another poster deluded, and futile earlier. Not really in the spirit of fostering a good discussion climate is it?

If you feel a sudden urge to actually discuss something, then please feel free to point out where I have defended TK. Or, at least feel free to point to anything I have actually written that you disagree with so that at least a discussion may be had. This is after all a discussion forum isn't it?

I do not recall any rudeness on my part, but if you are offended, then it was not my intention.
As you can appreciate I was brought up in a cave.
However, the mitigating circumstances are that I cannot be responsible for your extraordinary sensitivity in discussing and debating these matters.
Remember you pulled me up about my criticism of TK.
I was quite happily doing my knitting, and minding my own business, and whoosh, I get a message from you insinuating that I see everything in black and white.
Well I am just replying that you are barking up the wrong tree, and to be honest it would and should have been me accusing you of hypocrisy.
But as I am easy going and laid back almost horizontal, I was prepared to live and let live.
So let's relax, and in the meantime I shall keep you and your protege TK in my out tray for future reference.
Please remember, War does not determine who is right, but only who is left.
Also another word of advice......Never trust an Atom, they make up everything.

FWIW I don't believe Tony Khan takes any salary from FFC.

Alastair Mackintosh on the other hand takes £600k for being just as awful

Well we have all said a lot, I wonder what the summer will bring, no doubt that there will be lots of player movement but surely the Khans will have learnt something from their mistakes and it will not simply be more of the same.

I would also point out that while Marselle were happy to let Anguissa go, the main reason the price got so high is other clubs were bidding on him pushing the price up and up (which is rumoured to be Southampton). So, if you want use the price of Anguissa as proof we had the most stupid DOF, then ok that's a great argument; but realise he is still only marginally more stupid than some

Of course we now now that Willie McKay, almost certainly screwed us over the same way he did Cardiff:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6714921/Cardiff-threaten-sue-football-agent-Willie-McKay-inflating-Emiliano-Sala-transfer-fee.html

He was also involved in the Seri deal.  I do wonder why the Khans are not looking at this in the same way as the Cardif chairman.....?

Quote from: Lordedmundo on March 06, 2019, 05:45:58 PM
I would also point out that while Marselle were happy to let Anguissa go, the main reason the price got so high is other clubs were bidding on him pushing the price up and up (which is rumoured to be Southampton). So, if you want use the price of Anguissa as proof we had the most stupid DOF, then ok that's a great argument; but realise he is still only marginally more stupid than some

Of course we now now that Willie McKay, almost certainly screwed us over the same way he did Cardiff:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6714921/Cardiff-threaten-sue-football-agent-Willie-McKay-inflating-Emiliano-Sala-transfer-fee.html

He was also involved in the Seri deal.  I do wonder why the Khans are not looking at this in the same way as the Cardif chairman.....?

It is highly possible false rumours are spread, but I'd imagine Jokavoic would be able to find out "if Chelsea or Barcelona were really interested in Seri". I'd imagine Scott Parker to be able to find out "if the rumours that West Ham offerred more for Anguissa after FFC bought him have any creditablity". I am suspect Jokavoic/Parker wanted both Seri and Anguissa, although that doesn't mean they had any say in the overinflated price (although almost every player last summer except Mitro and Declan Rice seems to be overinflated in term of price).

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 08, 2019, 06:40:37 AM
It is highly possible false rumours are spread, but I'd imagine Jokavoic would be able to find out "if Chelsea or Barcelona were really interested in Seri". I'd imagine Scott Parker to be able to find out "if the rumours that West Ham offerred more for Anguissa after FFC bought him have any creditablity". I am suspect Jokavoic/Parker wanted both Seri and Anguissa, although that doesn't mean they had any say in the overinflated price (although almost every player last summer except Mitro and Declan Rice seems to be overinflated in term of price).

Of course we can imagine anything, just as we may be easily led into believing anything.  Even intelligence services struggle because you cannot monitor every single event no matter what you try.  And even if, say, a Jokanovic or Parker figure could find out useful information from their network, what if a TK figure turns around and says 'go to hell, 'cos my sources say you are wrong'?  And that applies to incoming too.

That is why some of football's more durable characters have their strength in trusted networks, trusted agents and contacts, via former dealings, favours owed and returned.  It is the ability to turn the heads of players into wanting to buy into a regime that delivers what it promises.  The charisma of a MAF figure compared to the chagrin of someone who hasn't mastered the required arts. It is why people reject rather than respect.  In life we tend to play to our strengths rather than taking on and learning new things and I suspect TK is guilty as charged in that respect and has not realised that US and European cultures are not as similar as he may think.  He and his father certainly will not be helped by having yes-men around him.

Quote from: toshes mate on March 08, 2019, 07:40:51 AM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 08, 2019, 06:40:37 AM
It is highly possible false rumours are spread, but I'd imagine Jokavoic would be able to find out "if Chelsea or Barcelona were really interested in Seri". I'd imagine Scott Parker to be able to find out "if the rumours that West Ham offerred more for Anguissa after FFC bought him have any creditablity". I am suspect Jokavoic/Parker wanted both Seri and Anguissa, although that doesn't mean they had any say in the overinflated price (although almost every player last summer except Mitro and Declan Rice seems to be overinflated in term of price).

Of course we can imagine anything, just as we may be easily led into believing anything.  Even intelligence services struggle because you cannot monitor every single event no matter what you try.  And even if, say, a Jokanovic or Parker figure could find out useful information from their network, what if a TK figure turns around and says 'go to hell, 'cos my sources say you are wrong'?  And that applies to incoming too.

That is why some of football's more durable characters have their strength in trusted networks, trusted agents and contacts, via former dealings, favours owed and returned.  It is the ability to turn the heads of players into wanting to buy into a regime that delivers what it promises.  The charisma of a MAF figure compared to the chagrin of someone who hasn't mastered the required arts. It is why people reject rather than respect.  In life we tend to play to our strengths rather than taking on and learning new things and I suspect TK is guilty as charged in that respect and has not realised that US and European cultures are not as similar as he may think.  He and his father certainly will not be helped by having yes-men around him.

TK and his father employed Slavisa Jokavoic, if Slavisa your idea of a yes-man, then WOW.

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 08, 2019, 08:33:19 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on March 08, 2019, 07:40:51 AM

Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 08, 2019, 06:40:37 AM
It is highly possible false rumours are spread, but I'd imagine Jokavoic would be able to find out "if Chelsea or Barcelona were really interested in Seri". I'd imagine Scott Parker to be able to find out "if the rumours that West Ham offerred more for Anguissa after FFC bought him have any creditablity". I am suspect Jokavoic/Parker wanted both Seri and Anguissa, although that doesn't mean they had any say in the overinflated price (although almost every player last summer except Mitro and Declan Rice seems to be overinflated in term of price).

Of course we can imagine anything, just as we may be easily led into believing anything.  Even intelligence services struggle because you cannot monitor every single event no matter what you try.  And even if, say, a Jokanovic or Parker figure could find out useful information from their network, what if a TK figure turns around and says 'go to hell, 'cos my sources say you are wrong'?  And that applies to incoming too.

That is why some of football's more durable characters have their strength in trusted networks, trusted agents and contacts, via former dealings, favours owed and returned.  It is the ability to turn the heads of players into wanting to buy into a regime that delivers what it promises.  The charisma of a MAF figure compared to the chagrin of someone who hasn't mastered the required arts. It is why people reject rather than respect.  In life we tend to play to our strengths rather than taking on and learning new things and I suspect TK is guilty as charged in that respect and has not realised that US and European cultures are not as similar as he may think.  He and his father certainly will not be helped by having yes-men around him.

TK and his father employed Slavisa Jokavoic, if Slavisa your idea of a yes-man, then WOW.

And they had been trying to sack him from the first moment they found out he wasn't, which obviously went way over your head, WOW.

I think they wanted him to do well with Fulham, but sacked him after a terrible run of results which made us relegation candidates - but maybe they should have given him more time , who knows.

MAF sacked Tigana, whom he presumably had thought highly of and wanted to lead Fulham to the heights, but as we know, football is cut throat, and results driven, and managers  jobs very insecure.

I guess whoever owns the club gets 100% say on who the manager is and when he goes. We all have different opinions, at least a third of Fulham Fans that loved the club thought Slavisa should go, "The Khans" were two of those Fans. Like the third of fans made the wrong choice.

I loved what Slavisa did for the club as much as anyone ,but if he had suffered more defeats then sooner or later even the rest of the fans would have turned on him,and wanted him to go. At least he left the club as a legend with his dignity intact.