Interesting to see that Pat Roberts is still stuck on the bench and not getting a run out. I wonder why?
have you seen the size of the Rotherham defenders? he will be fine for Friday
Because KS knows the juniors really well and has spent a lot of his time developing and looking after them himself - he will know who and when to bring them in - he has been pretty successful so far - perhaps with the exception of Dembele who just doesn't look ready yet
i found it a little weired tonight. granted i was only listening to jim, but kit swapped one of our goal scorers for dembele and moved the other over to the wing to accomidate smith. surely we would have been better off swaping eisfield for pat. and i dont get the constant moving around of mccormack. i personally dont believe he is better on the wing than either george or pat, and ive not seen too much from him from behind the strikers. i feel like we are just moving him around to keep him on the pitch cos he cost so much. if he is not doing it up front, just replace him like for like. dont just fit him somewhere where we have as good if not better options
Quote from: epsomraver on October 21, 2014, 10:46:51 PM
have you seen the size of the Rotherham defenders? he will be fine for Friday
nifty small players love taking on big oafs. look what frei did to laurent
It's called 'managing players'.
The lad is 17 and is being eased in to professional football. I doubt he is fully developed as an athlete yet and I doubt Kit (or anyone) want to see him over used or kicked all over the shop.
I'm more concerned at the disappearance of Chris David.
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:51:16 AM
Quote from: epsomraver on October 21, 2014, 10:46:51 PM
have you seen the size of the Rotherham defenders? he will be fine for Friday
nifty small players love taking on big oafs. look what frei did to laurent
Laurent is a wimp when compared to the big oafs in Rotherham :) ...........Pat's being saved for Friday night
Saving Roberts for Friday so he can turn it on in front of the cameras..... Thus upping his fee when he leaves in January :54:
Quote from: leonffc on October 22, 2014, 06:39:50 AM
It's called 'managing players'.
The lad is 17 and is being eased in to professional football. I doubt he is fully developed as an athlete yet and I doubt Kit (or anyone) want to see him over used or kicked all over the shop.
I'm more concerned at the disappearance of Chris David.
eased in? the only time he plays football is when he joins up with england.
he was about to come on with Dembele when Woodrow scored and then they changed their mind.
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:50:03 AM
i found it a little weired tonight. granted i was only listening to jim, but kit swapped one of our goal scorers for dembele and moved the other over to the wing to accomidate smith. surely we would have been better off swaping eisfield for pat. and i dont get the constant moving around of mccormack. i personally dont believe he is better on the wing than either george or pat, and ive not seen too much from him from behind the strikers. i feel like we are just moving him around to keep him on the pitch cos he cost so much. if he is not doing it up front, just replace him like for like. dont just fit him somewhere where we have as good if not better options
Zverotic needed help on the right and actually putting Roberts there would have left us more exposed than we already were. made sense to put McCormack there, and he actually produced some of his best stuff in that position.
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:22:57 AM
he was about to come on with Dembele when Woodrow scored and then they changed their mind.
that says a lot. basically he will use him to rescue a game but not to try and win it
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 08:25:59 AM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:22:57 AM
he was about to come on with Dembele when Woodrow scored and then they changed their mind.
that says a lot. basically he will use him to rescue a game but not to try and win it
I think that's readiing far too much into that, He brought him on against Bolton and we were winning.
Roberts is still young, but the game was too tight to bring him on at 2-2 as I explained.
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:24:50 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:50:03 AM
i found it a little weired tonight. granted i was only listening to jim, but kit swapped one of our goal scorers for dembele and moved the other over to the wing to accomidate smith. surely we would have been better off swaping eisfield for pat. and i dont get the constant moving around of mccormack. i personally dont believe he is better on the wing than either george or pat, and ive not seen too much from him from behind the strikers. i feel like we are just moving him around to keep him on the pitch cos he cost so much. if he is not doing it up front, just replace him like for like. dont just fit him somewhere where we have as good if not better options
Zverotic needed help on the right and actually putting Roberts there would have left us more exposed than we already were. made sense to put McCormack there, and he actually produced some of his best stuff in that position.
so would you start him as a right winger then?
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 08:30:57 AM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:24:50 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:50:03 AM
i found it a little weired tonight. granted i was only listening to jim, but kit swapped one of our goal scorers for dembele and moved the other over to the wing to accomidate smith. surely we would have been better off swaping eisfield for pat. and i dont get the constant moving around of mccormack. i personally dont believe he is better on the wing than either george or pat, and ive not seen too much from him from behind the strikers. i feel like we are just moving him around to keep him on the pitch cos he cost so much. if he is not doing it up front, just replace him like for like. dont just fit him somewhere where we have as good if not better options
Zverotic needed help on the right and actually putting Roberts there would have left us more exposed than we already were. made sense to put McCormack there, and he actually produced some of his best stuff in that position.
so would you start him as a right winger then?
No, but hes an option if you want to make those type of changes and have two forwards and Ross on the pitch, especially when its a 442 and not a diamond.
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:32:32 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 08:30:57 AM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:24:50 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:50:03 AM
i found it a little weired tonight. granted i was only listening to jim, but kit swapped one of our goal scorers for dembele and moved the other over to the wing to accomidate smith. surely we would have been better off swaping eisfield for pat. and i dont get the constant moving around of mccormack. i personally dont believe he is better on the wing than either george or pat, and ive not seen too much from him from behind the strikers. i feel like we are just moving him around to keep him on the pitch cos he cost so much. if he is not doing it up front, just replace him like for like. dont just fit him somewhere where we have as good if not better options
Zverotic needed help on the right and actually putting Roberts there would have left us more exposed than we already were. made sense to put McCormack there, and he actually produced some of his best stuff in that position.
so would you start him as a right winger then?
No, but hes an option if you want to make those type of changes and have two forwards and Ross on the pitch, especially when its a 442 and not a diamond.
but this is my point. the only reason you would drop ross to midfield and bring another striker on is if ross isnt having a good game up top. if eisfied wasnt having a bit of a mare, do you think he would have swapped dembele for ross? i dont
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 08:36:10 AM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:32:32 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 08:30:57 AM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:24:50 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:50:03 AM
i found it a little weired tonight. granted i was only listening to jim, but kit swapped one of our goal scorers for dembele and moved the other over to the wing to accomidate smith. surely we would have been better off swaping eisfield for pat. and i dont get the constant moving around of mccormack. i personally dont believe he is better on the wing than either george or pat, and ive not seen too much from him from behind the strikers. i feel like we are just moving him around to keep him on the pitch cos he cost so much. if he is not doing it up front, just replace him like for like. dont just fit him somewhere where we have as good if not better options
Zverotic needed help on the right and actually putting Roberts there would have left us more exposed than we already were. made sense to put McCormack there, and he actually produced some of his best stuff in that position.
so would you start him as a right winger then?
No, but hes an option if you want to make those type of changes and have two forwards and Ross on the pitch, especially when its a 442 and not a diamond.
but this is my point. the only reason you would drop ross to midfield and bring another striker on is if ross isnt having a good game up top. if eisfied wasnt having a bit of a mare, do you think he would have swapped dembele for ross? i dont
Ross can be having a good game up top, but if he thinks Ross can offer more than Elsfeld in that position then you make the change. Also Ross has shown he can play deeper and affect the game.
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:53:19 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 08:36:10 AM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:32:32 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 08:30:57 AM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 08:24:50 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:50:03 AM
i found it a little weired tonight. granted i was only listening to jim, but kit swapped one of our goal scorers for dembele and moved the other over to the wing to accomidate smith. surely we would have been better off swaping eisfield for pat. and i dont get the constant moving around of mccormack. i personally dont believe he is better on the wing than either george or pat, and ive not seen too much from him from behind the strikers. i feel like we are just moving him around to keep him on the pitch cos he cost so much. if he is not doing it up front, just replace him like for like. dont just fit him somewhere where we have as good if not better options
Zverotic needed help on the right and actually putting Roberts there would have left us more exposed than we already were. made sense to put McCormack there, and he actually produced some of his best stuff in that position.
so would you start him as a right winger then?
No, but hes an option if you want to make those type of changes and have two forwards and Ross on the pitch, especially when its a 442 and not a diamond.
but this is my point. the only reason you would drop ross to midfield and bring another striker on is if ross isnt having a good game up top. if eisfied wasnt having a bit of a mare, do you think he would have swapped dembele for ross? i dont
Ross can be having a good game up top, but if he thinks Ross can offer more than Elsfeld in that position then you make the change. Also Ross has shown he can play deeper and affect the game.
but if he was having a good game up top, why would you change it?
We were struggling up top and defensively with the physical nature of Rotherham's game and they were getting a lot of joy down our right flank. Personally I would have made the Ross switch for reasons MJG has said but brought on Smith instead of Dembele.
The latter does not look ready to me and Smith has more experience at this level and I have yet to work out why or how Dembele has leapfrogged Trotta
Quote from: FFC73 on October 22, 2014, 09:42:15 AM
We were struggling up top and defensively with the physical nature of Rotherham's game and they were getting a lot of joy down our right flank. Personally I would have made the Ross switch for reasons MJG has said but brought on Smith instead of Dembele.
The latter does not look ready to me and Smith has more experience at this level and I have yet to work out why or how Dembele has leapfrogged Trotta
and heres my point. how many times has ross been moved from striker to midfield because it is not happening for him. kit should stop picking him upfront and just start him in midfield so we can find a decent strike partnership.
That is more to do with sorting the midfield out than starting Ross there in the first place. If the midfield was working then there would not be a need to move Ross mid match
Quote from: FFC73 on October 22, 2014, 09:50:29 AM
That is more to do with sorting the midfield out than starting Ross there in the first place. If the midfield was working then there would not be a need to move Ross mid match
but then that goes back to would kit take him off if he wasnt doing it. and as ive already said i dont see how he is a better left or right mid than pat or george.
My theory with Roberts is a deal is already in place with a club and were scared he will get injured causing the deal to collapse. It seems very strange for someone who is branded a 'special talent' to never play. Michael Owen was scoring goals for England in a world cup at 17, I know that was then and he burned out quickly but if Roberts is as good as we think he is then that's my only theory. Magath never played him either, the others are all thrown into the deep end but pat is rapped in cotton wool?
Not only are we going to lose him anyway probably for nowhere near his true value but were also being prevented the chance to enjoy him while he's here.
Wouldn't be surprised if he's gone in january
Once again reading too much into things.
He is still a young slight lad with bags of skill, but its a massive step up to real mens football. Its just finding the right time and place to get him into a game, and there have not been many times to do that recently.
He is 100% not a starter at this time week in week out. But would expect him to start against Derby.
Owen had a more clear defined role...a striker..where Roberts plays deeper, so its not quite the right comparison to make.
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 12:53:02 PM
Once again reading too much into things.
He is still a young slight lad with bags of skill, but its a massive step up to real mens football. Its just finding the right time and place to get him into a game, and there have not been many times to do that recently.
He is 100% not a starter at this time week in week out. But would expect him to start against Derby.
Owen had a more clear defined role...a striker..where Roberts plays deeper, so its not quite the right comparison to make.
Ross barkley plays a bit deeper than Owen. Not sure how old he was when he started getting game time and he went to the world cup.
All I'm saying is Roberts is the only one who seems to be deliberately unused out of the good kids we have. I don't think he should start either but he never comes off the bench for more than 10 mins if at all. Where as Williams does and started for Wales the other night.
Roberts is smaller and weaker than Williams I know but I liken pat to messi the way he dribbles the ball and messi isn't exactly Michelin man. What if Roberts never grows or bulks up? Some people dont. Does that mean he will never be ready?
Luke Shaw is a good example as well, he plays deeper than owen did lol. Probably a harder role than a dribbler. My theory won't change until he gets more involved, I still think Fulham are protecting their pot of gold and won't allow him to get injured.
Ross Barkley is 21cm's taller and bigger build for a start.
I dont believe your theory that we are protecting him. You need to look at each game and see the changes made. Like I said earlier, I could see why at 2-2 he changed his mind about bringing him on.
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 12:53:02 PM
Once again reading too much into things.
He is still a young slight lad with bags of skill, but its a massive step up to real mens football. Its just finding the right time and place to get him into a game, and there have not been many times to do that recently.
He is 100% not a starter at this time week in week out. But would expect him to start against Derby.
Owen had a more clear defined role...a striker..where Roberts plays deeper, so its not quite the right comparison to make.
but in the last 2 games we have been in every position posible and still nothing. the scenario i suspect you are looking for is a three nil half time lead, which i feel we are a long way off, when our defensive line cant attack and our attacking line up cant defend. why are we not sending pat back to the 21s rather than giving him no football at all. cos that certainly doesnt help his progress
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:27:03 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 12:53:02 PM
Once again reading too much into things.
He is still a young slight lad with bags of skill, but its a massive step up to real mens football. Its just finding the right time and place to get him into a game, and there have not been many times to do that recently.
He is 100% not a starter at this time week in week out. But would expect him to start against Derby.
Owen had a more clear defined role...a striker..where Roberts plays deeper, so its not quite the right comparison to make.
but in the last 2 games we have been in every position posible and still nothing. the scenario i suspect you are looking for is a three nil half time lead, which i feel we are a long way off, when our defensive line cant attack and our attacking line up cant defend. why are we not sending pat back to the 21s rather than giving him no football at all. cos that certainly doesnt help his progress
On saturday we needed to have two banks of four at the end, with the two bigger men up top. Not sure how bringing on Pat would have benefited what we were doing that game.
I have already explained about the game I was watching last night, at 1-2 down he was coming on with Dembele, that changed as did the game when Woodrow scored.
Of course we want to see him play, as I do David, but last night Parker, Dembele and Smith were on for the obvious reasons we could all see last night as the game progressed.
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:27:03 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 12:53:02 PM
Once again reading too much into things.
He is still a young slight lad with bags of skill, but its a massive step up to real mens football. Its just finding the right time and place to get him into a game, and there have not been many times to do that recently.
He is 100% not a starter at this time week in week out. But would expect him to start against Derby.
Owen had a more clear defined role...a striker..where Roberts plays deeper, so its not quite the right comparison to make.
but in the last 2 games we have been in every position posible and still nothing. the scenario i suspect you are looking for is a three nil half time lead, which i feel we are a long way off, when our defensive line cant attack and our attacking line up cant defend. why are we not sending pat back to the 21s rather than giving him no football at all. cos that certainly doesnt help his progress
On saturday we needed to have two banks of four at the end, with the two bigger men up top. Not sure how bringing on Pat would have benefited what we were doing that game.
I have already explained about the game I was watching last night, at 1-2 down he was coming on with Dembele, that changed as did the game when Woodrow scored.
Of course we want to see him play, as I do David, but last night Parker, Dembele and Smith were on for the obvious reasons we could all see last night as the game progressed.
well i dint see the game, so how was it obvious that our two goal scorers needed to be removed from the front line. and against norwich, if pat had of come on, just maybe he would have got the ball up the other end of the pitch so that we didnt need to stick our bums to the wall
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 01:24:59 PM
Ross Barkley is 21cm's taller and bigger build for a start.
I dont believe your theory that we are protecting him. You need to look at each game and see the changes made. Like I said earlier, I could see why at 2-2 he changed his mind about bringing him on.
So now were comparing heights in cms? At what point will ability matter more than height and build because like I said before some people don't grow. I remember Aaron lennon walking out next to a mascot and the mascot was taller than him! At some stage it becomes an excuse for not playing someone, maybe not quite yet but definitely in a few months when Williams is on about 7 caps for Wales and a regular.
Like Fulham Ben said, what situation is suited to pat? We've been in every possible situation under kit but he still gets nothing. Playing a cameo against the likes of Bolton when were 4-0 up is a waste of time. We should send him back to the u21s rather than just let him get splinters in his backside.
Its frustrating because he won't be here for long, everyone must surely realise that. So I would like to enjoy him while we can.
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:37:18 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on October 22, 2014, 01:27:03 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 12:53:02 PM
Once again reading too much into things.
He is still a young slight lad with bags of skill, but its a massive step up to real mens football. Its just finding the right time and place to get him into a game, and there have not been many times to do that recently.
He is 100% not a starter at this time week in week out. But would expect him to start against Derby.
Owen had a more clear defined role...a striker..where Roberts plays deeper, so its not quite the right comparison to make.
but in the last 2 games we have been in every position posible and still nothing. the scenario i suspect you are looking for is a three nil half time lead, which i feel we are a long way off, when our defensive line cant attack and our attacking line up cant defend. why are we not sending pat back to the 21s rather than giving him no football at all. cos that certainly doesnt help his progress
On saturday we needed to have two banks of four at the end, with the two bigger men up top. Not sure how bringing on Pat would have benefited what we were doing that game.
I have already explained about the game I was watching last night, at 1-2 down he was coming on with Dembele, that changed as did the game when Woodrow scored.
Of course we want to see him play, as I do David, but last night Parker, Dembele and Smith were on for the obvious reasons we could all see last night as the game progressed.
well i dint see the game, so how was it obvious that our two goal scorers needed to be removed from the front line. and against norwich, if pat had of come on, just maybe he would have got the ball up the other end of the pitch so that we didnt need to stick our bums to the wall
Elsfeld was poor for me last night, he was the obvious first player to come off. Keeping 442 We needed a replacement on that side. The full back needed help as they were very strong down their left. Moving McCormack to the right and replacing him up front with Demeble (who did well) kept the balance and defensive strengths we would not have had with Roberts in that position.
I dont think Kit wanted to use Parker but he felt he needed to get him on for Hyndman, which made sense give it was 2-2 at the time.
This left just one sub left to make and for me it would have been Woodrow to come off and a toss up on Roberts or Smith.
Given the way Rotherham played and type of players they have I can see reason Smith came on, leaving us with two physical strikers up top, pace of Williams and skill/experience of McCormack.
Hence Roberts never came on. ;-)
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on October 22, 2014, 01:49:02 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 01:24:59 PM
Ross Barkley is 21cm's taller and bigger build for a start.
I dont believe your theory that we are protecting him. You need to look at each game and see the changes made. Like I said earlier, I could see why at 2-2 he changed his mind about bringing him on.
So now were comparing heights in cms? At what point will age matter more than height because like I said before some people don't grow. I remember Aaron lennon walking out next to a mascot and the mascot was taller than him! At some stage it becomes an excuse for not playing someone, maybe not quite yet but definitely in a few months when Williams is on about 7 caps for Wales and a regular.
Like Fulham Ben said, what situation is suited to pat? We've been in every possible situation under kit but he still gets nothing. Playing a cameo against the likes of Bolton when were 4-0 up is a waste of time. We should send him back to the u21s rather than just let him get splinters in his backside.
Its frustrating because he won't be here for long, everyone must surely realise that. So I would like to enjoy him while we can.
You brought Barkley into it and Im saying no comparison should be made between them due to that factor.
Roberts will get game time, and I rate him like anyone, but what do you do..play him just to keep him happy? If its not the right thing to do for the game & team then so be it. Otherwise you fall into trap of playing players for other reasons apart from the game in front of you.
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 01:54:52 PM
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on October 22, 2014, 01:49:02 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 22, 2014, 01:24:59 PM
Ross Barkley is 21cm's taller and bigger build for a start.
I dont believe your theory that we are protecting him. You need to look at each game and see the changes made. Like I said earlier, I could see why at 2-2 he changed his mind about bringing him on.
So now were comparing heights in cms? At what point will age matter more than height because like I said before some people don't grow. I remember Aaron lennon walking out next to a mascot and the mascot was taller than him! At some stage it becomes an excuse for not playing someone, maybe not quite yet but definitely in a few months when Williams is on about 7 caps for Wales and a regular.
Like Fulham Ben said, what situation is suited to pat? We've been in every possible situation under kit but he still gets nothing. Playing a cameo against the likes of Bolton when were 4-0 up is a waste of time. We should send him back to the u21s rather than just let him get splinters in his backside.
Its frustrating because he won't be here for long, everyone must surely realise that. So I would like to enjoy him while we can.
You brought Barkley into it and Im saying no comparison should be made between them due to that factor.
Roberts will get game time, and I rate him like anyone, but what do you do..play him just to keep him happy? If its not the right thing to do for the game & team then so be it. Otherwise you fall into trap of playing players for other reasons apart from the game in front of you.
Haha OK fair enough I brought up Barkley but first it was Owen had a simpler role, Barkley is 11cms taller. But both the same age playing at a much higher demanding level.
I don't want Roberts starting every week and I actually prefer Williams. I don't want pat to get what he wants either, footballs about what's right for the team and he shouldn't think he's above that. But god help us when eisfeld is playing ahead of you, that concerns me. Apparently he was awful yesterday, I'm not a fan personally so when pat is still being ignored the theories in my head start going crazy.
"In Kit I trust" !
