Has anyone seen/experienced any following FFC?
I have to be aware that, being a white guy, maybe my antennae is not always up and I may have missed thing.
The only thing that springs to mind is sitting down the back of the Golden Lion with my young son at the time, watching the TV pre-game an idiot in a group was being overly racist at black players on the screen at the time. I didn't say anything. Fairly sure it would have kicked off if I had. He kept looking for agreement to what he was saying and I just ignored him.
I remember going to a West Ham away game with a black mate from school. He was a hammers fan and had never been to a game, we were about 15. This would have been mid 80's !!
Obviously this was terracing. Half way through the 2nd half, it was clear my mate was being slowly targetted. Little commets from behind us. It was def going to lead to something. My mate, who was a tough inner London lad, was terrified. From watching a game, we had to get out of there sharpish.
I've seen a few bad things following Fulham(mostly the on-pitch quality of our play) and been in a couple of scraps in the 80's (protecting myself) but nothing racist
Believe it or not I can remember a few racist comments when Paul Parker made his debut, but since then I have never heard anything at the Cottage. I did hear racism at some away games in the 80's which is no surprise.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find any club that doesn't have at least some form of racism shown at a game to be honest. Some clubs have it worse (Chelsea) but even on a local level in Suffolk, I've heard it and only about 12 people went....
Never seen any racism following Fulham, (although when Chelsea had the female physio, the abuse she got was terrible, and made me feel ashamed), although I have seen it at other grounds. The most recent example was at St Mary's (we get tickets through work and I was taking clients,) where some bloke was being very racist to one of their own players. He was clearly on something and I mentioned it to a steward, but they had to actually catch him saying it, and every time the steward walked past he shut up.
I really don't get the mentality
The BBC need to get off their high horse. Preaching about eradicating racism and severe punishments, yet re-hired Trevor Sinclair as a pundit despite him pleading guilty and being convicted of a racially aggravated offence
Interesting debate on talksport today which, in summary, spme argued that strong abuse is ok, provided it's not illegal (e.g. racist, sexist, homophobic). I completely disagree.
Looking at the Chelsea footage (more graphic than the stills) whatever those guys were saying I am appalled at the hatred they appear to be showing.
Quote from: Westlondonffc on December 11, 2018, 12:36:50 PM
The BBC need to get off their high horse. Preaching about eradicating racism and severe punishments, yet re-hired Trevor Sinclair as a pundit despite him pleading guilty and being convicted of a racially aggravated offence
On that note KickItOut have called for people to be given harsher punishments (including long jail time) for racial abuse, but in the case of Trevor Sinclair said it would "offer support and guidance".
Quote from: Southcoastffc on December 11, 2018, 12:51:16 PM
Interesting debate on talksport today which, in summary, spme argued that strong abuse is ok, provided it's not illegal (e.g. racist, sexist, homophobic). I completely disagree.
Looking at the Chelsea footage (more graphic than the stills) whatever those guys were saying I am appalled at the hatred they appear to be showing.
Not sure who said it was ok, they're being investigated, likely banned and potential criminal charges given to them. Seems pretty open and clsoed case to me.
There used to be a bloke in his 50's that sat in front of me that would whip himself up into a frenzy most matches, he was occasionally racist but in fairness he was generally angry at pretty much every opposition player and the officials.
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
I once got called a baldy bugger by someone in the Hammersmith end for spilling my marshmallows everywhere.😵
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
Way to conflate man.....
I am of a generation where 'casual racism' was fairly normal. I had friends who were Pakistani and Indian. But it didn't stop me from using the ugly terms of the day in conversation. Anymore than them using casual homophobic insults towards people they didn't like. Anymore than parents reading stories about Golliwogs. it wasn't so much caused by hatred but by ignorance. George Best was singled out for his long hair by those that feared his football skills.
What we have now is the pretence of political correctness and saying the right thing. Sometimes that pretence slips. But at Fulham there has been the same casual remarks that now would seem shocking. I was standing at the Hammersmith End watching us play Watford in a cup game. Barnes flew past Roger Brown and scored a late winner. A voice behind me shouted abuse and the 'N' word at Barnes. I turned around and saw the bloke was a black lad shouting the insults. It was borne out of anger but not hatred at Barnes being black. Just his skill. Does not excuse it but does explain it.
Too often we look for insults and I am not sure that our political pretence is that much more healthier than the uglier days. No there is no room for such abuse nowadays. But we need to question the reason and it isn't always the simple answer.
Never heard anything from Fulham fans in nearly 20 years. Only racism I have heard at football was from a West Ham fan a while back.
Chelsea have a historical issue. Their hooligan firm had/has links to neo-nazi and other far right organisations, it was evident in that Paris Metro incident a few years back that they had still not shaken it.
Said it before, Chelsea fans are a different breed.
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 12:53:41 PM
Quote from: Westlondonffc on December 11, 2018, 12:36:50 PM
The BBC need to get off their high horse. Preaching about eradicating racism and severe punishments, yet re-hired Trevor Sinclair as a pundit despite him pleading guilty and being convicted of a racially aggravated offence
On that note KickItOut have called for people to be given harsher punishments (including long jail time) for racial abuse, but in the case of Trevor Sinclair said it would "offer support and guidance".
Laughable. The double standards are astonishing
A friend of mine who has bright Red hair, was subject to racial abuse by a nasty Asian looking bloke outside Valley Parade Bradford City many moons ago. The guy called him a G inger Bread Man for no reason at all. .
I had never ever looked at my Red headed friend that way before. But ever since then, every time I have felt ravenous, I have advised him stay indoors, until my hunger passes.
When Darren Bent came back to Craven Cottage a few years back with Darby County I think it was, I can remember a fan shouting some abuse at him which I didn't mind until he's skin colour came into it.
This all happened in the Johnny Haynes stand, I like to think of the average Fulham fan to be a little more educated then the knuckle-dragging fools you see at other clubs so I was disappointed to see this.
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.
I was once called a White Adonis by a very attractive local lady in a bar in a fishing village off the Skeleton Coast where my ship was anchored when I was in the Navy, I took that as a compliment.
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 03:07:14 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.
Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.
We continuously call the Khan's 'yanks' in derogatory tone - xenophobic. That is if calling someone from China a 'chink' would be considered xenophobic.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 11, 2018, 03:10:11 PM
I was once called a White Adonis by a very attractive local lady in a bar in a fishing village off the Skeleton Coast where my ship was anchored when I was in the Navy, I took that as a compliment.
RN OR PIRATE :005:
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 03:07:14 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.
Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.
It's always been a football term to call anyone who can't play football a donkey, also carthorse. I've never seen or heard it used in the context above or at least it wasn't loaded as such. Its just a technically poor footballer.....
Quote from: Southcoastffc on December 11, 2018, 12:51:16 PM
Interesting debate on talksport today which, in summary, spme argued that strong abuse is ok, provided it's not illegal (e.g. racist, sexist, homophobic). I completely disagree.
Looking at the Chelsea footage (more graphic than the stills) whatever those guys were saying I am appalled at the hatred they appear to be showing.
I am interested in his debate about whether any abuse is allowable, because, I, someone who though I would never use a racist or homophobic remark, have often sworn at opposing player eg when they came to take a corner , etc - I remember doing his to Stephen Gerrard at Anfield, calling him a **** when he came over to take a corner. this was to put him off, though it didn't help much since we got hammered.
But shouting abuse at players - the opposition or even your own- though I don't do this, has always been part of football since I first started standing on the terraces in the early 60's, but these days it's become more toxic because society has become like this.
I don't actually recall any racist abuse from Fulham fans, though I remember Fulham fans chanting 'Chelsea rent boy' at Gaeme Le Saux at Southampton when he played for them. I would never join in join in with something like that - directed at a player's identity or personal life.
But it's chastening to think that I could be pulled out if I swore vehemently at an opposition player, and feel that to try and outlaw this is crossing a line. Though I must admit the current debate has made me think twice about doing this - not through fear of punishment, though I think you have to be aware of that these days, but that maybe it isn't right.
Even racist and homophobic abuse i'm not sure about penalising, because it just drives it under cover, and doesn't stop people holding such attitudes.
Chelsea has always had a racist, far right element , anyway, which we don't have at Fulham thankfully,, and I do think the Fulham crowd has always been self- governing in this.
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 03:07:14 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.
Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.
You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require creativity.
Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'. (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Your implication was that describing Kanté as a "freak" was racist, even though the post was in a positive context. The word "donkey" however is never used in a positive context in the same way that the word "freak" might be.
Had someone said that Kanté was a freak
because of his small stature rather than
in spite of it, then I'd agree it comes across badly.
Quote from: KJS on December 11, 2018, 03:34:13 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 11, 2018, 03:10:11 PM
I was once called a White Adonis by a very attractive local lady in a bar in a fishing village off the Skeleton Coast where my ship was anchored when I was in the Navy, I took that as a compliment.
RN OR PIRATE :005:
Pirate 🏴☠️ under the Skull & Crossbones, and I still have my Parrot Cocoa, who I obtained from a Cocoa plantation to prove it.
Quote from: flyingfish on December 11, 2018, 03:39:16 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 03:07:14 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.
Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.
You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require creativity.
Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'. (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.
I'd still call him raw and not see how that's unconscious bias. His attributes are heavily aligned toward athleticism over technical ability with the football. That's just who he is. He's called raw because he's young and his technical ability can be coached. I must be missing your point here.
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 11, 2018, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: flyingfish on December 11, 2018, 03:39:16 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 03:07:14 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.
Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.
You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require creativity.
Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'. (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.
I'd still call him raw and not see how that's unconscious bias. His attributes are heavily aligned toward athleticism over technical ability with the football. That's just who he is. He's called raw because he's young and his technical ability can be coached. I must be missing your point here.
I don't necessarily disagree with you about Kamara's abilities, but the overarching narrative is that he's strong and powerful and has poor decision making. Whether or not that is true or not in this particular instance doesn't mean it isn't a prevalent and persistent stereotype of young black players and whether or not it is truet might mean that a) they don't get the credit for it when they defy the stereotype, and b) people notice the mistakes more when they are made that support the narrative.
Personally, I don't think AK does get enough credit when he puts in a good performance and he does from time to time display technical ability, as it seems to be put down to an anomaly or despite his other 'well known; deficiencies - see how many people were describing a shot through the legs of the Leicester keeper as jammy.
I don't know, I'm a white male so rarely experience prejudice and so don't know what I'm talking about and the unconscious bias stuff about AK is probably a load of old bull and nothing to do with his race, but more to do with the fact when he first came he was shite and first impressions and all that. we'd need to ask him.
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 11, 2018, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: flyingfish on December 11, 2018, 03:39:16 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 03:07:14 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.
Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.
You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require creativity.
Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'. (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.
I'd still call him raw and not see how that's unconscious bias. His attributes are heavily aligned toward athleticism over technical ability with the football. That's just who he is. He's called raw because he's young and his technical ability can be coached. I must be missing your point here.
Its such a hard subject to talk about, Dembele and Woodrow, both came about at the same time, but you saw Demeble accused of being raw as well, but I dont recall Woodrow ever being called that. On the other side I heard someone say yesterday that all big black strikers are called beasts. Thats not true as Id describe Mitrovic a beast and think i have done on here.
there is 100% unconscious bias in football, when it become conscious and we see what happened at Chelsea thats when the ugly side of football society comes out.
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 03:59:51 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 11, 2018, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: flyingfish on December 11, 2018, 03:39:16 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 03:07:14 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.
Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.
You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require creativity.
Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'. (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.
I'd still call him raw and not see how that's unconscious bias. His attributes are heavily aligned toward athleticism over technical ability with the football. That's just who he is. He's called raw because he's young and his technical ability can be coached. I must be missing your point here.
Its such a hard subject to talk about, Dembele and Woodrow, both came about at the same time, but you saw Demeble accused of being raw as well, but I dont recall Woodrow ever being called that. On the other side I heard someone say yesterday that all big black strikers are called beasts. Thats not true as Id describe Mitrovic a beast and think i have done on here.
there is 100% unconscious bias in football, when it become conscious and we see what happened at Chelsea thats when the ugly side of football society comes out.
I 100% agree that there's unconscious bias in football, sure. I'm a huge fan of Kamara, in my private group, I was calling for his introduction weeks ago. On this occasion, i don't think suggesting he's more of an asset for his athleticism than his ball ability to show his passing range or other technical footballing prowess is unconscious though. I think NFL suffers from this sort of stuff way more than soccer does to be honest. As an FYI, I think Dembele was called raw because he wasn't the finished article and you knew he was goign on to better things. Again, has the potential, just not the finished article. Foden/Sess/Hydman half of our youth has been called that. I do wonder whether soemtiems we get a bit too into the psyche of people when in reality, people are just saying things that are 100% fine and not offensive and we try and link it to some form of offence.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 11, 2018, 03:45:55 PM
Quote from: KJS on December 11, 2018, 03:34:13 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 11, 2018, 03:10:11 PM
I was once called a White Adonis by a very attractive local lady in a bar in a fishing village off the Skeleton Coast where my ship was anchored when I was in the Navy, I took that as a compliment.
RN OR PIRATE :005:
Pirate 🏴☠️ under the Skull & Crossbones, and I still have my Parrot Cocoa, who I obtained from a Cocoa plantation to prove it.
I sailed under the Skull and Crossbones only mine was in RN Submarine Service ::pirate::
Quote from: flyingfish on December 11, 2018, 03:39:16 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 03:07:14 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.
Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.
You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require creativity.
Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'. (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.
You're 100% right, I currently study sports in society at university, and have studied what is known as 'stacking', i.e. players being encouraged to play certain positions because of historical prejudice. It's not a huge problem in association football per se, more a problem in league such as the NFL, where until recently there were very few black quarterbacks, a position which demands high decision making capabilities and cognitive skills, and few kickers, who require precision, whereas positions such as wide receiver and running back which requires high speed and physicality are typically dominated by black players. It's not completely non-existent in football though, how many black goalkeepers can you name off the top of your head?
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 03:39:41 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 11, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.
Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"
There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.
Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.
Your implication was that describing Kanté as a "freak" was racist, even though the post was in a positive context. The word "donkey" however is never used in a positive context in the same way that the word "freak" might be.
Had someone said that Kanté was a freak because of his small stature rather than in spite of it, then I'd agree it comes across badly.
Fair enough, but there's something that just doesn't sit right with trying to put a positive spin on the word 'freak', a word that in any other context is insulting and derogatory, instead of using words such as 'hugely talented' or simply 'an excellent player'.
For me, it's easy to see Kamara's talents, yet it seems that not enough of that has been honed into skill. He does quite a lot to earn his criticisms. I also happen to believe that, given time and instruction, he can be a successful PL player for us or somebody. I'm sure there is a racial bias from some as racism is far more prevalent than most recognize but, I've not seen things written about him here that stuck out as being racist. Admittedly, being a white male, I'm sure that some things that seem innocuous to me are more powerful/hurtful to others.
Too much said about the subject its been around
forever,and will continue to be around forever.
Racism comes from all sides no matter what colour or creed,Pakistani and Indians have always hated one another,Muslim and Jew,Catholic and Protestant,Black n White,and whatever else.
They will never go away as long as man is alive I'm afraid,that is the way of the world.
Move on and talk about football and how we are going to get out of this mess...Coyw.
What about his nickname AK 47?
Association of black men with guns and violence , or just because his initials are AK, and a white player with the same initial might have the same nickname? Which i suppose isn't bad for a rampaging forward to have, being associeted with toughness and a no nonsense attitude.
But I have been a bit irritated about how people go on about AK's lack of skill,and seem to ignore his attributes, which include a lot of skill too , like when he scored the other day, which some said was a fluke. But is this anything to do with unconscious racism?
Quote from: RaySmith on December 11, 2018, 04:32:37 PM
What about his nickname AK 47?
Association of black men with guns and violence , or just because his initials are AK, and a white player with the same initial might have the same nickname? Which i suppose isn't bad for a rampaging forward to have, being associeted with toughness and a no nonsense attitude.
But I have been a bit irritated about how people go on about AK's lack of skill,and seem to ignore his attributes, which include a lot of skill too , like when he scored the other day, which some said was a fluke. But is this anything to do with unconscious racism?
In fairness, I think he did that deliberately by choosing the squad number 47.
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 04:34:16 PM
Quote from: RaySmith on December 11, 2018, 04:32:37 PM
What about his nickname AK 47?
Association of black men with guns and violence , or just because his initials are AK, and a white player with the same initial might have the same nickname? Which i suppose isn't bad for a rampaging forward to have, being associeted with toughness and a no nonsense attitude.
But I have been a bit irritated about how people go on about AK's lack of skill,and seem to ignore his attributes, which include a lot of skill too , like when he scored the other day, which some said was a fluke. But is this anything to do with unconscious racism?
In fairness, I think he did that deliberately by choosing the squad number 47.
Didn't his friends start calling him that after how powerful a shot he had? Swear I heard a french interview say that?
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 11, 2018, 04:37:35 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 04:34:16 PM
Quote from: RaySmith on December 11, 2018, 04:32:37 PM
What about his nickname AK 47?
Association of black men with guns and violence , or just because his initials are AK, and a white player with the same initial might have the same nickname? Which i suppose isn't bad for a rampaging forward to have, being associeted with toughness and a no nonsense attitude.
But I have been a bit irritated about how people go on about AK's lack of skill,and seem to ignore his attributes, which include a lot of skill too , like when he scored the other day, which some said was a fluke. But is this anything to do with unconscious racism?
In fairness, I think he did that deliberately by choosing the squad number 47.
Didn't his friends start calling him that after how powerful a shot he had? Swear I heard a french interview say that?
Was unaware but interesting if that's the case. Clearly he didn't have a problem with it so guess it stuck.
Interesting comments re. Kamara, but I'm struggling with the notions that that there is unconcious racism underpinning these.
It can be too easy to overanalyse things and create issues that aren't there.
Apologies if this is spoken as a white male on the cusp sandwiched between Gen X and the Millenials.
Quote from: KJS on December 11, 2018, 04:11:01 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 11, 2018, 03:45:55 PM
Quote from: KJS on December 11, 2018, 03:34:13 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 11, 2018, 03:10:11 PM
I was once called a White Adonis by a very attractive local lady in a bar in a fishing village off the Skeleton Coast where my ship was anchored when I was in the Navy, I took that as a compliment.
RN OR PIRATE :005:
Pirate 🏴☠️ under the Skull & Crossbones, and I still have my Parrot Cocoa, who I obtained from a Cocoa plantation to prove it.
I sailed under the Skull and Crossbones only mine was in RN Submarine Service ::pirate::
I see, or should I say I sea.
I am now mainly involved in Smuggling Rum off the English Coast around inlets off Cornwall, when I can get down there.
I remember sailing in a gale forced storm in the English Channel, and the ships cook was a woman who wanted to come up on deck as she was feeling bit woozy as the ship was battered by the storm.
She decided to lean over and put her head through a Porthole to I assume throw up. As she did a huge swell forced the ship to keel from Port to Starboard which caused me to lose my balance slightly and push into her.
She suddenly said to me, what is that, and I said don't worry it's the roll of the sea, and she replied, it feels more like a roll of Lino.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on December 11, 2018, 04:25:50 PM
Too much said about the subject its been around
forever,and will continue to be around forever.
Racism comes from all sides no matter what colour or creed,Pakistani and Indians have always hated one another,Muslim and Jew,Catholic and Protestant,Black n White,and whatever else.
They will never go away as long as man is alive I'm afraid,that is the way of the world.
Move on and talk about football and how we are going to get out of this mess...Coyw.
Correct
Quote from: Jimpav on December 11, 2018, 05:10:00 PM
Apologies if this is spoken as a white male on the cusp sandwiched between Gen X and the Millenials.
At times I really really love this board. COYW
think the media need to show some restraint in claiming this was racist.
they incite hatred like they always do .
david beckham vilified by journalists .
hillsborogh Liverpool fans accused of urinating on and robbing dying fans.
also players surrounding refs. should stop as these incite crowd,
Quote from: john dempsey on December 11, 2018, 05:49:05 PM
think the media need to show some restraint in claiming this was racist.
they incite hatred like they always do .
david beckham vilified by journalists .
hillsborogh Liverpool fans accused of urinating on and robbing dying fans.
also players surrounding refs. should stop as these incite crowd,
The media didn't make the original claim it was Sterling :doh:
Quote from: KJS on December 11, 2018, 05:52:01 PM
Quote from: john dempsey on December 11, 2018, 05:49:05 PM
think the media need to show some restraint in claiming this was racist.
they incite hatred like they always do .
david beckham vilified by journalists .
hillsborogh Liverpool fans accused of urinating on and robbing dying fans.
also players surrounding refs. should stop as these incite crowd,
The media didn't make the original claim it was Sterling :doh:
Pretty sure it did start from the media, then Sterling had his say afterwards?
but the media jumped on the claim without any facts,
and whilst the persons who gave the abuse was a total fool
nobody around him heard any racist abuse .
The World Cup in Qatar in 2022 will be the last one in my opinion.Nothing to do with Race however but because FIFA are finally recognized for being the bent orgaization they really are-selling out to oil rich countries!
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 11, 2018, 01:13:21 PM
I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.
French is a race now is it. News to me
Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.
I am dead against any form of racism especially at the Cottage and honestly , to the best of my knowledge I have never seen it at a Fulham match.
However a lot of us older folk wouldn't consider a reference to Frogs as racist in the same way as we accept remarks about Jocks, Taffs, Pommies and Paddies without offence.. We need someone to produce guidelines for us perhaps.
Anyway let us demonstrate that we are the absolute opposites to racists at the Cottage by singing louder than usual " He is one of our own" every time Sess. gets the ball on Saturday.
Anyone remember Stan Horne who played for us late 60s early 70s. We had a chant for him which today would be totally unacceptable but at the time was sung with affection.
Yes. Every time we play Tottenham. It's a complete disgrace but nobody cares. Tens of thousands of supporters every weekend singing racist language.
To be fair I wouldn't say the term donkey is racist, or saying Kamara doesn't have a footballing brain.
I called Matt Smith / Dan Burn donkeys about 15 times a day, and still do to this day. Wouldn't say its a colour thing.
I say Kamara doesn't have a footballing brain because he doesn't, not really because he is black.
I do think there is a huge amount of Xenophobia amongst football fans (ingrained by Talk Sport etc) but hey what can you do.
Quote from: abfg on December 11, 2018, 08:21:39 PM
Yes. Every time we play Tottenham. It's a complete disgrace but nobody cares. Tens of thousands of supporters every weekend singing racist language.
:54: :plus one:
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 10:13:20 PM
The most annoying thing about this is I can't stand Sterling and would love to shout all manner of abuse (non-racist) abuse at him if he came running past my seat at the Cottage. But there is now a very real chance I'd come home to see my face all over Twitter and people saying what a vile racist scumbag I am.
You'd probably not get called racist unless you actually said something racist.
You know I never knew calling somebody a bit of a donkey meant they were useless, I thought it meant something of a rude nature. Just shows you how wrong a person can be
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
Just read the thread on racism and xenophobia which was rightly condemned by everyone.
One thing I would like to point out however is that hundreds of Fulham supporters chanted abuse
at Lorenzo at Chelsea such as Murderer, Murderer and He kills little girls. I cringed at this and was slightly ashamed.
Not racist or xenophobic just plain individual abuse. Was I right to feel that?
Why is shouting abuse at anyone ok if it isn't racist?
Why shout abuse at all?
Banter yes
Abuse no
Yes
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
But one person's banter, a joke, is another person's abuse in this area.
Absolutely agree with Terry - what makes it acceptable in society to shout abuse at anyone? Most of these footballers we know virtually nothing about, only what you read in the newspapers which 99% of the time is a load of garbage. What gives you the right to hurl obscenities at someone just because they kick a ball for another team and earn more money than you?! It has never made sense to me
Can we imagine football with everyone politely applauding. Well some would say it's gone too far that way already.
But I don't want to seem like an apologist for racism and homophobia, which I'm definitely not, but I think if you go down the road of trying to eradicate all personal abuse, which has always gone on in football since I remember - from the early 60's, than I think that would change the nature of the game as an experience. part of football has always ben verbally expressing yourself passionately - hence the chanting and singing, and shouting from fans, which create the unique atmosphere of football.
I'm not sure about even penalising racist abuse, which definitely is nothing like as bad as it was, because attitudes have generally changed. To penalise something only drives it underground, doesn't change the way people think - which is what we should be trying to do, through education.
The current political situation is probably why there has been a rise in open expressions of racism - if there has been this.
Football only reflects wider society, but gets demonised, and fans seen as Neanderthals, when it's only a tiny minority who shout racist abuse, as in society generally.
Quote from: e4b on December 11, 2018, 06:36:25 PM
Anyone remember Stan Horne who played for us late 60s early 70s. We had a chant for him which today would be totally unacceptable but at the time was sung with affection.
I remember well , fulham black fulham white fulham n¤¤¤¤r , couldnt get away with it today !
Reading this thread shows how controversial the topic is, and how alive is the problem the topic engenders. If you ask yourself a very simple question when a stranger approaches you 'do you see the person first or do you see their race first?' An honest answer honed over several real and varied examples may provide you with food for thought.
Giving bog-standard grief to opposition players, fans, the ref, linesmen etc is part of the game. The atmosphere at games is dire enough as it is these days, if that goes it would be totally non-existent
No one is talking about taking passion or anything like that out the game, its about doing it within the bounds of modern standards.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 12, 2018, 08:33:53 AM
Reading this thread shows how controversial the topic is, and how alive is the problem the topic engenders. If you ask yourself a very simple question when a stranger approaches you 'do you see the person first or do you see their race first?' An honest answer honed over several real and varied examples may provide you with food for thought.
That is easy. If they are there to help or ask a question I would have trouble knowing what race they are. If they spoke with a middle eastern or looked non pasty white I would know what they look like but not much more.
If they were threatening then I would think of them in a racist way in the same way I would at a white posh idiot or a common thug or etc etc..........
Personally, I find people more generally abusive and disrespectful to others than they've ever been - in society generally, though society plays lip service to being anti-racist and homophobic, and to abuse of other minorities, with
a lot of laws against 'hate crime' and an advertising campaign now on tv.. But I think this means that people just avoid being abusive when they're likely to be caught, but save for when they know they are likely to get away with it, especially with decline in police numbers.
I think the new laws, along with surveillance of football crowds with video cameras are a lot do with fear of getting caught, though with the rise of black players in the game, I do think most people are less likely to be racist.
But I think the current political climate, and pronouncements from certain politicians, have made racist views acceptable again amongst some, and they feel more confident in expressing them.
But we've just seen what happens if you do get caught in the act, though these things can be hard to prove - the bloke at Chelsea says he was saying 'Manc' so and so, not black so and so.
Discussion of that incident,and the vitriol of the fans filmed towards the player, has led to discussuion of fan abuse of players' generally, and i do worry about a 'crack down' on shouting at refs and players, even if it's not racist, and this could affect the atmosphere at games - which is a lot to do with fans chanting and shouting passionately, which inevitably includes bad language and abuse of officials and players.
It's just that football fans are already heavily policed, and often subject to unjust treatment from jobsworth officials, unlike fans of sports like rugby who get can away with behaviour that would lead to them being evicted or prosecuted at a football game.
As I've said penalising things jus leads to the attitudes going underground, when you really want to change the attitudes in the first place.
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 12, 2018, 09:49:11 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 12, 2018, 08:33:53 AM
Reading this thread shows how controversial the topic is, and how alive is the problem the topic engenders. If you ask yourself a very simple question when a stranger approaches you 'do you see the person first or do you see their race first?' An honest answer honed over several real and varied examples may provide you with food for thought.
That is easy. If they are there to help or ask a question I would have trouble knowing what trace they are. If they spoke with a middle eastern or looked non pasty white I would know what they look like but not much more.
If they were threatening then I would think of them in a racist way in the same way I would at a white posh idiot or a common thug or etc etc..........
It isn't a trick question or even one with 'an open for discussion' answer. It is an absolutely personal self test. It is about what enters your head first from just looking and it may very well vary according to circumstances e.g. mood.
Quote from: Statto on December 12, 2018, 12:56:31 PM
Quote from: RaySmith on December 12, 2018, 10:02:24 AM
But I think the current political climate, and pronouncements from certain politicians, have made racist views acceptable again amongst some, and they feel more confident in expressing them.
Ray I've enjoyed and agreed with your posts on this thread but think you're being harsh here.
Unfortunately this is a time where one half of the country is constantly accusing the other (slightly larger) half of being racist, lied to etc... I will say no more due to the no politics rule
I think the reality is much of what's called "racist" today wouldn't have been called racist 10 or 20 or 30 years ago
And it certainly wouldn't have been reported to the police
And even if it was, it wouldn't have been investigated
You see these headlines now about "racism increasing", in reality i am sure it's just a broader definition and increased appetite to report and prosecute it nowadays
I believe that you are correct in that racism isn't necessarily increasing. Definitely not when compared to 30 or so years ago. I do believe however that racism is in general more openly expressed due to today's social media. It is very easy for average Joe to spout racist abuse on the internet nowadays, whereas before he would generally have been afraid to be so upfront with it (unless maybe at a football game).
I also happen to believe that it is a good thing that the definition has been broadened, since we should always strive to improve the attitudes in society. The fact that something was acceptable 20 years ago does not mean that it should be acceptable now.
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 10:13:20 PM
The most annoying thing about this is I can't stand Sterling and would love to shout all manner of abuse (non-racist) abuse at him if he came running past my seat at the Cottage. But there is now a very real chance I'd come home to see my face all over Twitter and people saying what a vile racist scumbag I am.
Why can you not stand Sterling? Seems a decent lad to me. He doesnt fit for me the pantomine vllain type of player. He's bloody good and that can be annoying
Quote from: Statto on December 12, 2018, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: BedsFFC on December 12, 2018, 01:56:30 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 10:13:20 PM
The most annoying thing about this is I can't stand Sterling and would love to shout all manner of abuse (non-racist) abuse at him if he came running past my seat at the Cottage. But there is now a very real chance I'd come home to see my face all over Twitter and people saying what a vile racist scumbag I am.
Why can you not stand Sterling? Seems a decent lad to me. He doesnt fit for me the pantomine vllain type of player. He's bloody good and that can be annoying
Refused to play for Liverpool to get more money from Man City. Gets a tattoo on his leg propagating one of the worst stereotypes for young black people. Then complains about racism. Standard overrated young English player, too busy on nitrous oxide to win us a world cup. Now claims it's unfair that we all find it odd that a Man City player no one has heard of, who hasn't even played in the first team can spend millions on a new house. Ex-QPR.
Plus he often has the excuse of "he's had a hard up-bringing" made for him by the media + BBC. In particular after his woeful performances against Tunisia & Panama, who by contrast must have had a great up-bringing!
Quote from: Statto on December 12, 2018, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: BedsFFC on December 12, 2018, 01:56:30 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 10:13:20 PM
The most annoying thing about this is I can't stand Sterling and would love to shout all manner of abuse (non-racist) abuse at him if he came running past my seat at the Cottage. But there is now a very real chance I'd come home to see my face all over Twitter and people saying what a vile racist scumbag I am.
Why can you not stand Sterling? Seems a decent lad to me. He doesnt fit for me the pantomine vllain type of player. He's bloody good and that can be annoying
Refused to play for Liverpool to get more money from Man City. Gets a tattoo on his leg propagating one of the worst stereotypes for young black people. Then complains about racism. Standard overrated young English player, too busy on nitrous oxide to win us a world cup. Now claims it's unfair that we all find it odd that a Man City player no one has heard of, who hasn't even played in the first team can spend millions on a new house. Ex-QPR.
Sure, all of these things may give you reason for not liking the guy. Why anyone would like to shout abuse at him because of it is however beyond me, and inexcusable. Act like adults instead, and maybe you would even set an example for the younger ones.
what we need is a set of rules set out in
BLACK AND WHITE. that should settle the issue.
Recall some chants at the Cottage in the 70s that were well out of order. But, it was far worse at the non-league matches we attended where the crowd were much closer to the victim of the songs & comments.
Quote from: e4b on December 11, 2018, 06:36:25 PM
Anyone remember Stan Horne who played for us late 60s early 70s. We had a chant for him which today would be totally unacceptable but at the time was sung with affection.
Recall Howard Gayle's debut at Deepdale in 79....the same lyrics were sung but different name.
Spoke to John Richardson a while back...he always wondered what became of Stanley.. hopefully fit and well..presumably residing somewhere near his Manchester roots.
coyw
Quote from: BarneyTravers on December 12, 2018, 07:55:05 PM
Quote from: e4b on December 11, 2018, 06:36:25 PM
Anyone remember Stan Horne who played for us late 60s early 70s. We had a chant for him which today would be totally unacceptable but at the time was sung with affection.
Recall Howard Gayle's debut at Deepdale in 79....the same lyrics were sung but different name.
Spoke to John Richardson a while back...he always wondered what became of Stanley.. hopefully fit and well..presumably residing somewhere near his Manchester roots.
coyw
Hand on heart, the only thing I've heard at Fulham was the Stan Horne song which I won't write here but was really not that offensive, if at all, it was meant in an affectionate way. Yet when someone else came along later he was dubbed "Fulham's first black player". I've only heard support for our "ethnic minority" players and the usual abuse for opposition players quite irrespective of their colour.
Chelski making the headlines again.
Too stupid/ignorant to realise that the man who bought their recent success is Jewish.
Quote from: Sting of the North on December 12, 2018, 03:41:30 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 12, 2018, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: BedsFFC on December 12, 2018, 01:56:30 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2018, 10:13:20 PM
The most annoying thing about this is I can't stand Sterling and would love to shout all manner of abuse (non-racist) abuse at him if he came running past my seat at the Cottage. But there is now a very real chance I'd come home to see my face all over Twitter and people saying what a vile racist scumbag I am.
Why can you not stand Sterling? Seems a decent lad to me. He doesnt fit for me the pantomine vllain type of player. He's bloody good and that can be annoying
Refused to play for Liverpool to get more money from Man City. Gets a tattoo on his leg propagating one of the worst stereotypes for young black people. Then complains about racism. Standard overrated young English player, too busy on nitrous oxide to win us a world cup. Now claims it's unfair that we all find it odd that a Man City player no one has heard of, who hasn't even played in the first team can spend millions on a new house. Ex-QPR.
Sure, all of these things may give you reason for not liking the guy. Why anyone would like to shout abuse at him because of it is however beyond me, and inexcusable. Act like adults instead, and maybe you would even set an example for the younger ones.
Perhaps he wants to shout non racist abuse at Sterling because he is a typical over paid footballer who likes to give it the "Big I Am " on social media but hides behind the colour of his skin when anybody has a go at him for doing so.
I remember Tyrone James playing for Fulham at right back (?), and my uncle who is long since dead was a season ticket holder from the 1930s to the 70s..
Tyrone was probably our first coloured player of modern times and it prompted the comment from my uncle that 'they could play in defence but we're not temperamentally suited to play as forwards'
Please excuse this quote which would not be made in modern times but was so ignorant and reflected the general attitude before coloured players became an established part of football.
