Racism

[Berserker]

You know I never knew calling somebody a bit of a donkey meant they were useless, I thought it meant something of a rude nature. Just shows you how wrong a person can be

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[Kent Cassandra]

Just read the thread on racism and xenophobia which was rightly condemned by everyone.
One thing I would like to point out however is that hundreds of Fulham supporters chanted abuse
at Lorenzo at Chelsea such as Murderer, Murderer and He kills little girls. I cringed at this and was slightly ashamed.
Not racist or xenophobic just plain individual abuse.    Was I right to feel that?

[terryr]

Why is shouting abuse at anyone ok if it isn't racist?
Why shout abuse at all?
Banter yes
Abuse no

[Berserker]

Yes

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[RaySmith]

But one person's banter, a joke,  is another person's abuse in this area.

[Jamie88]

Absolutely agree with Terry - what makes it acceptable in society to shout abuse at anyone? Most of these footballers we know virtually nothing about, only what you read in the newspapers which 99% of the time is a load of garbage. What gives you the right to hurl obscenities at someone just because they kick a ball for another team and earn more money than you?! It has never made sense to me 

[RaySmith]

Can we imagine football with  everyone politely applauding. Well some would say it's gone too far that way already.

But I don't want to seem like an apologist for racism and homophobia, which I'm definitely not, but I think if you go down the road of trying to eradicate all personal abuse, which has always gone on in  football since I remember - from the early 60's, than I think that would change the nature of the game as an experience. part of football has always ben   verbally expressing yourself passionately - hence the chanting and singing, and shouting from fans, which  create the unique atmosphere  of football.

I'm not sure about even penalising racist abuse, which definitely is nothing like as bad as it was, because attitudes have generally changed. To penalise something  only drives it underground, doesn't change the way people think - which is what we should be trying to do, through education.

The current political situation is probably why there has been a rise in open expressions of racism - if there has been this.
Football only  reflects wider society, but gets demonised, and fans  seen as Neanderthals, when it's only a tiny minority who shout racist abuse, as in society generally.

[Dr Know]

Anyone remember Stan Horne who played for us late 60s early 70s. We had a chant for him which today would be totally unacceptable but at the time was sung with affection.

I remember well , fulham black fulham white fulham n¤¤¤¤r , couldnt get away with it today  !

[toshes mate]

Reading this thread shows how controversial the topic is, and how alive is the problem the topic engenders.  If you ask yourself a very simple question when a stranger approaches you 'do you see the person first or do you see their race first?'  An honest answer honed over several real and varied examples may provide you with food for thought.

[Westlondonffc]

Giving bog-standard grief to opposition players, fans, the ref, linesmen etc is part of the game. The atmosphere at games is dire enough as it is these days, if that goes it would be totally non-existent

[MJG]

No one is talking about taking passion or anything like that out the game, its about doing it within the bounds of modern standards.

[Lighthouse]

Reading this thread shows how controversial the topic is, and how alive is the problem the topic engenders.  If you ask yourself a very simple question when a stranger approaches you 'do you see the person first or do you see their race first?'  An honest answer honed over several real and varied examples may provide you with food for thought.

That is easy. If they are there to help or ask a question I would have trouble knowing what race they are. If they spoke with a middle eastern or looked non pasty white I would know what they look like but not much more.

If they were threatening then I would think of them in a racist way in the same way I would at a white posh idiot or a common thug or etc etc..........

[RaySmith]

Personally, I find people more generally abusive and disrespectful to others than they've ever been - in society generally, though society plays lip service  to being anti-racist and  homophobic, and to abuse of other minorities, with
a lot of laws against 'hate crime' and an advertising campaign now on tv.. But I think this means that people just avoid  being abusive when they're likely to be caught, but save for when they know they are likely to get away with it, especially with decline in police numbers.

I think the new laws, along with surveillance of football crowds with video cameras are a lot do with fear of getting caught, though with the rise of black players in the game, I do think most people are  less likely to be racist.

But I think the current political  climate, and pronouncements from certain politicians, have made racist views acceptable again amongst some, and they feel more confident in expressing them.
But we've just seen what happens if you do get caught in the act, though these things can be hard to prove - the bloke at Chelsea says he was saying 'Manc' so and so, not black so and so.

Discussion of that incident,and  the   vitriol of the fans  filmed towards the player, has led to discussuion of fan abuse of players' generally, and i do worry about a 'crack down' on shouting at refs and players, even if it's not racist, and this could  affect the atmosphere at games - which is a lot to do with  fans chanting and shouting passionately,  which inevitably  includes bad language and  abuse of officials and players.

It's just that football fans are already heavily policed, and often subject to  unjust treatment from jobsworth officials, unlike fans of sports like rugby who get can away with behaviour that would lead to them being   evicted or prosecuted at a football game.

As I've said penalising  things jus leads to the attitudes going underground, when you really want to change the attitudes in the first place.

[toshes mate]

Reading this thread shows how controversial the topic is, and how alive is the problem the topic engenders.  If you ask yourself a very simple question when a stranger approaches you 'do you see the person first or do you see their race first?'  An honest answer honed over several real and varied examples may provide you with food for thought.

That is easy. If they are there to help or ask a question I would have trouble knowing what trace they are. If they spoke with a middle eastern or looked non pasty white I would know what they look like but not much more.

If they were threatening then I would think of them in a racist way in the same way I would at a white posh idiot or a common thug or etc etc..........

It isn't a trick question or even one with 'an open for discussion' answer.  It is an absolutely personal self test.  It is about what enters your head first from just looking and it may very well vary according to circumstances e.g. mood.
     

[Sting of the North]

But I think the current political  climate, and pronouncements from certain politicians, have made racist views acceptable again amongst some, and they feel more confident in expressing them.

Ray I've enjoyed and agreed with your posts on this thread but think you're being harsh here.
Unfortunately this is a time where one half of the country is constantly accusing the other (slightly larger) half of being racist, lied to etc... I will say no more due to the no politics rule
I think the reality is much of what's called "racist" today wouldn't have been called racist 10 or 20 or 30 years ago
And it certainly wouldn't have been reported to the police
And even if it was, it wouldn't have been investigated
You see these headlines now about "racism increasing", in reality i am sure it's just a broader definition and increased appetite to report and prosecute it nowadays

I believe that you are correct in that racism isn't necessarily increasing. Definitely not when compared to 30 or so years ago. I do believe however that racism is in general more openly expressed due to today's social media. It is very easy for average Joe to spout racist abuse on the internet nowadays, whereas before he would generally have been afraid to be so upfront with it (unless maybe at a football game).

I also happen to believe that it is a good thing that the definition has been broadened, since we should always strive to improve the attitudes in society. The fact that something was acceptable 20 years ago does not mean that it should be acceptable now.

[BedsFFC]

The most annoying thing about this is I can't stand Sterling and would love to shout all manner of abuse (non-racist) abuse at him if he came running past my seat at the Cottage. But there is now a very real chance I'd come home to see my face all over Twitter and people saying what a vile racist scumbag I am.

Why can you not stand Sterling? Seems a decent lad to me. He doesnt fit for me the pantomine vllain type of player. He's bloody good and that can be annoying

[MikeTheCubed]

The most annoying thing about this is I can't stand Sterling and would love to shout all manner of abuse (non-racist) abuse at him if he came running past my seat at the Cottage. But there is now a very real chance I'd come home to see my face all over Twitter and people saying what a vile racist scumbag I am.

Why can you not stand Sterling? Seems a decent lad to me. He doesnt fit for me the pantomine vllain type of player. He's bloody good and that can be annoying

Refused to play for Liverpool to get more money from Man City. Gets a tattoo on his leg propagating one of the worst stereotypes for young black people. Then complains about racism. Standard overrated young English player, too busy on nitrous oxide to win us a world cup. Now claims it's unfair that we all find it odd that a Man City player no one has heard of, who hasn't even played in the first team can spend millions on a new house. Ex-QPR. 

Plus he often has the excuse of "he's had a hard up-bringing" made for him by the media + BBC. In particular after his woeful performances against Tunisia & Panama, who by contrast must have had a great up-bringing!

[Sting of the North]

The most annoying thing about this is I can't stand Sterling and would love to shout all manner of abuse (non-racist) abuse at him if he came running past my seat at the Cottage. But there is now a very real chance I'd come home to see my face all over Twitter and people saying what a vile racist scumbag I am.

Why can you not stand Sterling? Seems a decent lad to me. He doesnt fit for me the pantomine vllain type of player. He's bloody good and that can be annoying

Refused to play for Liverpool to get more money from Man City. Gets a tattoo on his leg propagating one of the worst stereotypes for young black people. Then complains about racism. Standard overrated young English player, too busy on nitrous oxide to win us a world cup. Now claims it's unfair that we all find it odd that a Man City player no one has heard of, who hasn't even played in the first team can spend millions on a new house. Ex-QPR.

Sure, all of these things may give you reason for not liking the guy. Why anyone would like to shout abuse at him because of it is however beyond me, and inexcusable. Act like adults instead, and maybe you would even set an example for the younger ones. 

[john dempsey]

what we need is a set of rules set out in
BLACK AND WHITE. that should settle the issue.

[SP]

Recall some chants at the Cottage in the 70s that were well out of order. But, it was far worse at the non-league matches we attended where the crowd were much closer to the victim of the songs & comments.