I just watched the last 30 minutes again of the fantastic 2-0 win in the Semi Final v Derby for the first time this season.
What you notice is our great possession play, but also the absolutely terrible mistakes made in defence. Our back line in the Premier League was very similar and that back 4 and was frankly a relatively average defensive unit. Great going forward yes, but made too many mistakes. To even think that defence could handle the Premier League was madness and just re-confirmed my view that only really adding an injured Mawson was the great mistake of last summers transfer dealings.
We love Tim Ream, but defensively he is not good enough, he made about 3 critical errors in that last 30 mins v Derby that could have cost us, the difference then was that Derby unlike most Premier teams did not punish us.
Max is a decent squad player but we need to sign at least one very good championship central defender as a top priority this summer.
Sorry - who is Max....but you're right about our defence....needs surgery and we may also need to look at keeper's
If premier league defenders TFM, Chambers and Mawson managed to play a combined 100 games between them in defence, then Christie, Odoi, MLM, Ream, Bryan and Sessegnon would have been ok covering the other 52 games between them and the bench.
Our backline is ok although not great, it's up front we are bad, especially when we have two forwards like Schullre and Mitro that cannot defend. We need two forwards better than Kamara, Kebano, Fonte and Atyie every game, therefore we need at least three to four top forwards (Mitro is one), especially some wingers that can press, win the ball, get back and maybe one that can provide aerial support on set pieces.
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on May 19, 2019, 11:49:47 PM
Sorry - who is Max....but you're right about our defence....needs surgery and we may also need to look at keeper's
Maxime le Merchant
Look at some recordings of games, we make regular mistakes in defence and got away with it in the Championship but got punished in the Premier League. Maybe we will get away with it again, however last time around it was partly hidden by our ball retention, we often had near 70% possession.
I firmly believe we need to buy a good defensive centre half and a right back if we are going to push for promotion.
Up front if we keep Mitro, with Ayité, Kebano and maybe Kamara we are strong enough as Cairney is largely an attacking player. That said, I agree another striker is required to replace Sess who will go and if Mitro goes we need a re-think.
Midfield is our strongest area, I am sure Seri will go but with Anguissa if he stays, KMac, StefJo, TC, as well as some good youngsters we are very strong.
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 20, 2019, 06:52:39 AM
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on May 19, 2019, 11:49:47 PM
Sorry - who is Max....but you're right about our defence....needs surgery and we may also need to look at keeper's
Maxime le Merchant
Look at some recordings of games, we make regular mistakes in defence and got away with it in the Championship but got punished in the Premier League. Maybe we will get away with it again, however last time around it was partly hidden by our ball retention, we often had near 70% possession.
I firmly believe we need to buy a good defensive centre half and a right back if we are going to push for promotion.
Up front if we keep Mitro, with Ayité, Kebano and maybe Kamara we are strong enough as Cairney is largely an attacking player. That said, I agree another striker is required to replace Sess who will go and if Mitro goes we need a re-think.
Midfield is our strongest area, I am sure Seri will go but with Anguissa if he stays, KMac, StefJo, TC, as well as some good youngsters we are very strong.
Do you seriously think Mitro, Cairney, Kamara, Kebano, Fonte and Atyie is a strong enough front four to push for automatic promotion?
To get 89 points, you need to beat the bottom half almost every game (72 points), not lose at home to top half teams (11 points), two away wins to top half teams (6 points) and make up any points lost against the bottom half teams with home victories to top half teams.
Sheffield United scored in 23 of 24 games against bottom half of the table teams. By contrast, Sheffield United dropped points in 13 of 24 games against teams that finished in the top half of the table; that's what is needed to get automatic promotion in the Championship.
I think our key to automatic promotion is getting close to 24 wins against the bottom half of the table. We need to be able to be beat them without Mitro or Cairney sometimes, because it is a long long season. I really think Kamara, Kebano, Fonte and Atyie cannot do it without Mitro and Cairney.
I think honestly our defence is good enough for automatics, Ream was one of most solid CBs in league last time we went up. If anything Le Marchand is a slightly better Ream. Mawson is a huge upgrade on Odoi as well. The only position we are weaker at is RB as I think Bryan and Targett are pretty much the same level.
Quote from: @jolslover on May 20, 2019, 07:47:22 AM
I think honestly our defence is good enough for automatics, Ream was one of most solid CBs in league last time we went up. If anything Le Marchand is a slightly better Ream. Mawson is a huge upgrade on Odoi as well. The only position we are weaker at is RB as I think Bryan and Targett are pretty much the same level.
Completely agree. The defence is in a very good position as it is, with new comings not necessarily needed. If we can improve, great.
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 20, 2019, 06:52:39 AM
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on May 19, 2019, 11:49:47 PM
Sorry - who is Max....but you're right about our defence....needs surgery and we may also need to look at keeper's
Maxime le Merchant
Look at some recordings of games, we make regular mistakes in defence and got away with it in the Championship but got punished in the Premier League. Maybe we will get away with it again, however last time around it was partly hidden by our ball retention, we often had near 70% possession.
I firmly believe we need to buy a good defensive centre half and a right back if we are going to push for promotion.
Up front if we keep Mitro, with Ayité, Kebano and maybe Kamara we are strong enough as Cairney is largely an attacking player. That said, I agree another striker is required to replace Sess who will go and if Mitro goes we need a re-think.
Midfield is our strongest area, I am sure Seri will go but with Anguissa if he stays, KMac, StefJo, TC, as well as some good youngsters we are very strong.
Disagree with regards to the attack. If we lose Mitro, it needs major investment. A top ST, RW and LW are all needed if we want to push on. Kamara, Ayite and Kebano are squad players, no more.
The problem over the summer is deciding whether or not Mawson is going to be good enough to become that commanding centre back we need for next season in the Championship.
Before coming to the Cottage he had a good reputation, last season he suffered from injuries and we saw nothing to suggest he is up to the job required of him.
So do we rely on him or replace him.
We need to forward think here, yes the defence may be good enough to get us out of the championship, but we need a defence that can do it on the premier league, we need to get most of that defence in place this season so we dont have 4 people unknown to each other a the begin of a new season in the premier league, if you can draw all the games 0-0 that 36 points that staying up
Quote from: filham on May 20, 2019, 10:11:04 AM
The problem over the summer is deciding whether or not Mawson is going to be good enough to become that commanding centre back we need for next season in the Championship.
Before coming to the Cottage he had a good reputation, last season he suffered from injuries and we saw nothing to suggest he is up to the job required of him.
So do we rely on him or replace him.
I think he was showing real promise when he came into the side. I seem to remember he came in against Liverpool away and althpough we lost 2-0 we looked more solid. We then beat Southampton, got draws against Leicester and newcastle and wolves and beat Huddesrfield. Even the losses against chelsea and west ham, we looked better.
I think that was him done then and we didnt have a run of form like that for the rest of the season.
Personally, if we keep him and I think he'd be well out of order to leave, he'll be one of the best defenders in the championship.
I think it's a waste of time bunking if our squad is good enough to get promoted. The fact is it's not good enough to survive in the premier league so we need to rebuild. What's the point in keeping the same squad just to buy a heap of newbies next year again and keep that toxic cycle going?
What we need to do is to invest in talented potential, youth and hungry players capable of developing and improving into premier league players. Not the likes of Odoi, McDonald, Fonte,Ream etc . This group may do as backups this season but to rely on them and then kick them out next season only repeats our annual issues. I'd say the likes of James Justin (Luton) Che Adams (Birmingham) Jarrod Bowen (Hull) are all easily getable, would improve our squad and have potential of growing into future premier league players, even just to freshen the squad up to take away some toxicity of relegation.
Premier league loans I reckon should be used but kept to a minimum, and search for a future star. Piazon and Kalas slotted into our team but I think we are capable of finding a gem a la Harry Wilson or Harvey Barnes.
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 19, 2019, 10:53:22 PM
I just watched the last 30 minutes again of the fantastic 2-0 win in the Semi Final v Derby for the first time this season.
What you notice is our great possession play, but also the absolutely terrible mistakes made in defence. Our back line in the Premier League was very similar and that back 4 and was frankly a relatively average defensive unit. Great going forward yes, but made too many mistakes. To even think that defence could handle the Premier League was madness and just re-confirmed my view that only really adding an injured Mawson was the great mistake of last summers transfer dealings.
We love Tim Ream, but defensively he is not good enough, he made about 3 critical errors in that last 30 mins v Derby that could have cost us, the difference then was that Derby unlike most Premier teams did not punish us.
Max is a decent squad player but we need to sign at least one very good championship central defender as a top priority this summer.
I do agree but if you check back, very many of us said that the second the final whistle blew at wembley. There was seemingly endless posts here and elsewhere that absolutely said we need a new defence and a defensive midfielder. The only people that that seemed to pass by were the DoF and his team. The signing of Mawsom was just ridiculous, relying on a player that came injured as the only proper correct standard was negligent of the leadership. But what you say remains true as it was 12 months ago.
And let us get our own players not loanees, that is how to build a team.
Quote from: ALG01 on May 20, 2019, 12:59:05 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 19, 2019, 10:53:22 PM
I just watched the last 30 minutes again of the fantastic 2-0 win in the Semi Final v Derby for the first time this season.
What you notice is our great possession play, but also the absolutely terrible mistakes made in defence. Our back line in the Premier League was very similar and that back 4 and was frankly a relatively average defensive unit. Great going forward yes, but made too many mistakes. To even think that defence could handle the Premier League was madness and just re-confirmed my view that only really adding an injured Mawson was the great mistake of last summers transfer dealings.
We love Tim Ream, but defensively he is not good enough, he made about 3 critical errors in that last 30 mins v Derby that could have cost us, the difference then was that Derby unlike most Premier teams did not punish us.
Max is a decent squad player but we need to sign at least one very good championship central defender as a top priority this summer.
I do agree but if you check back, very many of us said that the second the final whistle blew at wembley. There was seemingly endless posts here and elsewhere that absolutely said we need a new defence and a defensive midfielder. The only people that that seemed to pass by were the DoF and his team. The signing of Mawsom was just ridiculous, relying on a player that came injured as the only proper correct standard was negligent of the leadership. But what you say remains true as it was 12 months ago.
And let us get our own players not loanees, that is how to build a team.
+1 . Some of these posts on here are pretty silly. This is it, nothing more nothing less.
We could do on forever about it, but if TK and team doesn't have the ability to find the proper players, its a moot point.
Quote from: ALG01 on May 20, 2019, 12:59:05 PM
I do agree but if you check back, very many of us said that the second the final whistle blew at wembley. There was seemingly endless posts here and elsewhere that absolutely said we need a new defence and a defensive midfielder. The only people that that seemed to pass by were the DoF and his team. The signing of Mawsom was just ridiculous, relying on a player that came injured as the only proper correct standard was negligent of the leadership. But what you say remains true as it was 12 months ago.
And let us get our own players not loanees, that is how to build a team.
How do you figure that the fact we needed defenders passed by the DoF and his team? They did bring in Mawson (youngish central defender with PL experience on the verge of the England squad, albeit injured), Chambers (lots of PL experience mainly as CB but also RB), TFM (lots of PL experience, mainly as RB, had been tested in the Dutch national team), Bryan (one of the best LBs in the Championship, similar level to Targett), MLM (capable of playing CB and LB), Anguissa (DM, albeit used to playing two defensive midfielders). That is 5 new defenders and a DM. It is extremely obvious that they were aware that we needed new defenders. Your argument in that regard holds no ground at all if you look at what actually happened.
They may have arguably been the wrong players however, but that is another point.
Our defence simply isn't good enough. We conceded too many in our promotion season and last year was a debacle.
Mawson may or may not be the answer, I just haven't seen enough to know. But I've seen enough of Tim Ream to tell me that his magical career-high season is highly unlikely to be repeated. We must have more physical dominance than he will ever bring.
Quote from: Newry FFC on May 20, 2019, 12:14:21 PM
I think it's a waste of time bunking if our squad is good enough to get promoted. The fact is it's not good enough to survive in the premier league so we need to rebuild. What's the point in keeping the same squad just to buy a heap of newbies next year again and keep that toxic cycle going?
I can't speak for others but my rationale would be that our team would have been more than capable of staying up if the likes of Button, Kalas, Norwood and Piazon had been retained (instead of Fabri, MLM, Vietto...) and if the remaining new faces had been signed fit and early and given a proper pre-season
In any case it's a bit of a moot point because we've neither the financial resources nor pulling power to sign better players whilst we're in the Championship
Quote from: @jolslover on May 20, 2019, 07:47:22 AM
I think honestly our defence is good enough for automatics, Ream was one of most solid CBs in league last time we went up. If anything Le Marchand is a slightly better Ream. Mawson is a huge upgrade on Odoi as well. The only position we are weaker at is RB as I think Bryan and Targett are pretty much the same level.
Inclined to agree, broadly
Quote from: Carborundum on May 20, 2019, 01:32:25 PM
Our defence simply isn't good enough. We conceded too many in our promotion season and last year was a debacle.
Mawson may or may not be the answer, I just haven't seen enough to know. But I've seen enough of Tim Ream to tell me that his magical career-high season is highly unlikely to be repeated. We must have more physical dominance than he will ever bring.
Based only on goals conceded, we were still top 6 in the promotion season I believe. It is not as if we won 4-3 each week. Since we were top 2 in goals scored, that is not too shabby.
Quote from: Statto on May 20, 2019, 01:37:24 PM
Quote from: Newry FFC on May 20, 2019, 12:14:21 PM
I think it's a waste of time bunking if our squad is good enough to get promoted. The fact is it's not good enough to survive in the premier league so we need to rebuild. What's the point in keeping the same squad just to buy a heap of newbies next year again and keep that toxic cycle going?
I can't speak for others but my rationale would be that our team would have been more than capable of staying up if the likes of Button, Kalas, Norwood and Piazon had been retained (instead of Fabri, MLM, Vietto...) and if the remaining new faces had been signed fit and early and given a proper pre-season
In any case it's a bit of a moot point because we've neither the financial resources nor pulling power to sign better players whilst we're in the Championship
Derby, Norwich and Sheff Utd didnt have the financial resources to attract better players but all had decent seasons . They all effectively used the loan market without going crazy and bought in and brought through youth. Not a bad blueprint to work on whilst using Sess/ Mitro money with a bit of common sense. Easier said than done but we live in hope
Quote from: Newry FFC on May 20, 2019, 02:03:34 PM
Quote from: Statto on May 20, 2019, 01:37:24 PM
Quote from: Newry FFC on May 20, 2019, 12:14:21 PM
I think it's a waste of time bunking if our squad is good enough to get promoted. The fact is it's not good enough to survive in the premier league so we need to rebuild. What's the point in keeping the same squad just to buy a heap of newbies next year again and keep that toxic cycle going?
I can't speak for others but my rationale would be that our team would have been more than capable of staying up if the likes of Button, Kalas, Norwood and Piazon had been retained (instead of Fabri, MLM, Vietto...) and if the remaining new faces had been signed fit and early and given a proper pre-season
In any case it's a bit of a moot point because we've neither the financial resources nor pulling power to sign better players whilst we're in the Championship
Derby, Norwich and Sheff Utd didnt have the financial resources to attract better players but all had decent seasons . They all effectively used the loan market without going crazy and bought in and brought through youth. Not a bad blueprint to work on whilst using Sess/ Mitro money with a bit of common sense. Easier said than done but we live in hope
In the case of those three teams, we don't know how well they will fare on the PL however. And we don't know how many new players they will acquire. I mean, since the original comment here was about making sure to have a squad more or less capable of competing above their current level.
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 19, 2019, 10:53:22 PM
I just watched the last 30 minutes again of the fantastic 2-0 win in the Semi Final v Derby for the first time this season.
What you notice is our great possession play, but also the absolutely terrible mistakes made in defence. Our back line in the Premier League was very similar and that back 4 and was frankly a relatively average defensive unit. Great going forward yes, but made too many mistakes. To even think that defence could handle the Premier League was madness and just re-confirmed my view that only really adding an injured Mawson was the great mistake of last summers transfer dealings.
We love Tim Ream, but defensively he is not good enough, he made about 3 critical errors in that last 30 mins v Derby that could have cost us, the difference then was that Derby unlike most Premier teams did not punish us.
Max is a decent squad player but we need to sign at least one very good championship central defender as a top priority this summer.
Yep, Totally agree. Defense NEEDS to be upgraded, no question about it. I don't care what league you're in, if we play like we played this past season, we will find FFC bottom of table, maybe fighting for life to avoid another drop next season. And while we're at the defense upgrade, might want to take a look at improving at goalkeeper(s).
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on May 20, 2019, 09:30:30 AM
Quote from: @jolslover on May 20, 2019, 07:47:22 AM
I think honestly our defence is good enough for automatics, Ream was one of most solid CBs in league last time we went up. If anything Le Marchand is a slightly better Ream. Mawson is a huge upgrade on Odoi as well. The only position we are weaker at is RB as I think Bryan and Targett are pretty much the same level.
Completely agree. The defence is in a very good position as it is, with new comings not necessarily needed. If we can improve, great.
Can't agree boys. If FFC stands pat on defense next season, I see a world of hurt. JMHO.
Quote from: Sting of the North on May 20, 2019, 01:19:07 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on May 20, 2019, 12:59:05 PM
I do agree but if you check back, very many of us said that the second the final whistle blew at wembley. There was seemingly endless posts here and elsewhere that absolutely said we need a new defence and a defensive midfielder. The only people that that seemed to pass by were the DoF and his team. The signing of Mawsom was just ridiculous, relying on a player that came injured as the only proper correct standard was negligent of the leadership. But what you say remains true as it was 12 months ago.
And let us get our own players not loanees, that is how to build a team.
How do you figure that the fact we needed defenders passed by the DoF and his team? They did bring in Mawson (youngish central defender with PL experience on the verge of the England squad, albeit injured), Chambers (lots of PL experience mainly as CB but also RB), TFM (lots of PL experience, mainly as RB, had been tested in the Dutch national team), Bryan (one of the best LBs in the Championship, similar level to Targett), MLM (capable of playing CB and LB), Anguissa (DM, albeit used to playing two defensive midfielders). That is 5 new defenders and a DM. It is extremely obvious that they were aware that we needed new defenders. Your argument in that regard holds no ground at all if you look at what actually happened.
They may have arguably been the wrong players however, but that is another point.
Your kidding aren't you?
The implication of what I said is that the players brought in did not constitute getting an appropriately capable defence. Chhambers, not rated by Arsenal supporters I know proved he was poor at CB, Bryan was first injured for ages and really a rather poor derefensder to the end, unable to deal with Prem standard wing playing not knowing when to hld or when to close down. TFM, was not interested and poor, MLM dreadful and Mawsom unfit. So if you must yes the wrong players, it is splitting hairs because it was neglient. Bryan would eb an OKish squad player at prem level but we needed rather betyter and we got nobody capable at all at RB, so negligent.
As far as anguisa, the less said the better he is a total waste of space..a couple of semi better games near the season do not impress me much, the last two games for him were business as usual, shockers!
I think the poor quality brought in proves they did not know what was needed because we had a less good defence than the one we had before and that was hardly impressive.
Very interesting. There has been little comment about my point regarding playing style effectively protecting the defence. In our promotion season we had the ball most of the time so this limited the opposition. We were however vulnerable and made mistakes just like we did this last season. The difference was, the opposition did not punish us so harshly.
Now it may be that Scott has us playing with 70% possession however I doubt it and even if he did, we were and still will be vulnerable. Players like Ream MLM and Odoi are good on the ball but defensively not the strongest and they make mistakes on a regular basis. Mawson is still a risk but will hopefully be excellent next season. I really feel we need a strong leader next to maybe Mawson. I would love our current players to prove me wrong but I just don't have the confidence in them. I think we lack leadership, strength and height.
I said in my earlier post that if we lost Mitro we need a rethink up front. For me Mitro is critical to us next season. I think another striker with Mitro is important but think in Ayite and potentially Kamara we have enough to back us up striker wise. Kebano is a squad player and hope we offload Fonte.
Prioritise for me, the following starting 11.
1. New central defender
2. New right back
3. New striker next to Mitro
4. Fast wide man
If we kept most current players and added those, I think we would be well set.
Quote from: ALG01 on May 20, 2019, 03:52:27 PM
Your kidding aren't you?
The implication of what I said is that the players brought in did not constitute getting an appropriately capable defence. Chhambers, not rated by Arsenal supporters I know proved he was poor at CB, Bryan was first injured for ages and really a rather poor derefensder to the end, unable to deal with Prem standard wing playing not knowing when to hld or when to close down. TFM, was not interested and poor, MLM dreadful and Mawsom unfit. So if you must yes the wrong players, it is splitting hairs because it was neglient. Bryan would eb an OKish squad player at prem level but we needed rather betyter and we got nobody capable at all at RB, so negligent.
As far as anguisa, the less said the better he is a total waste of space..a couple of semi better games near the season do not impress me much, the last two games for him were business as usual, shockers!
I think the poor quality brought in proves they did not know what was needed because we had a less good defence than the one we had before and that was hardly impressive.
No, I'm not kidding, I just didn't agree with your post, which to me implicated that you believe that the recruitment team was not aware that we needed to strengthen in defence. As per usual, contrary opinions shouldn't be a surprise on a message board.
And, in my opinion this is not splitting hairs at all. It is two completely different things, namely being able to identify a need versus being able to find a suitable solution for that need. Or, if you will the difference between ignoring a problem or failing to address said problem. The outcome may ultimately be the same, but for different reasons. They obviously did the former, at least to an extent. It is more debatable if they managed the latter however, although I don't at all agree with your level of berating the recruitment. I believe there were bigger problems than the players recruited as such, namely the number of players needed and the lateness of the arrivals. Combine this with the lack of patience with Slav, the dubious subsequent appointment of a coach unlikely to gel with the type of players we had, and you have concocted a real mess that turned out to be too much for the club to come back from in the short term.
The recruited players seen in isolation were in my opinion for the most part at least ok, and many of them seemed to make sense. The problem for TK and the gang is of course that things can not be seen in isolation, and as such the players acquired were not enough to make up for other shortcomings.
Lastly, just to make it clear, this is my opinion and not meant to be taken as a joke. I will also give you the courtesy of assuming that your comments, however much I may disagree with them or find them unreasonable at times, are meant to reflect your opinion and not meant to be funny (unless indicated otherwise).
Quote from: @jolslover on May 20, 2019, 07:47:22 AM
I think honestly our defence is good enough for automatics, Ream was one of most solid CBs in league last time we went up. If anything Le Marchand is a slightly better Ream. Mawson is a huge upgrade on Odoi as well. The only position we are weaker at is RB as I think Bryan and Targett are pretty much the same level.
Youre putting way too much faith in a slow Mawson with an unreliable health record.
If he's not healthy with pace he's not better than Odoi.
Sent from my CMR-W19 using Tapatalk
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 20, 2019, 04:03:43 PM
Very interesting. There has been little comment about my point regarding playing style effectively protecting the defence. In our promotion season we had the ball most of the time so this limited the opposition. We were however vulnerable and made mistakes just like we did this last season. The difference was, the opposition did not punish us so harshly.
Now it may be that Scott has us playing with 70% possession however I doubt it and even if he did, we were and still will be vulnerable. Players like Ream MLM and Odoi are good on the ball but defensively not the strongest and they make mistakes on a regular basis. Mawson is still a risk but will hopefully be excellent next season. I really feel we need a strong leader next to maybe Mawson. I would love our current players to prove me wrong but I just don't have the confidence in them. I think we lack leadership, strength and height.
I said in my earlier post that if we lost Mitro we need a rethink up front. For me Mitro is critical to us next season. I think another striker with Mitro is important but think in Ayite and potentially Kamara we have enough to back us up striker wise. Kebano is a squad player and hope we offload Fonte.
Prioritise for me, the following starting 11.
1. New central defender
2. New right back
3. New striker next to Mitro
4. Fast wide man
If we kept most current players and added those, I think we would be well set.
Can't argue with a lot of that. I'd argue we need more than just 2 additions to the back 4. I actually think in the middle and up front our current team as is, is, and was good enough for the PL with a proper back 4.
Time will tell whether TK can do it. It's hard to imagine him doing any worse.
Quote from: The Rock on May 20, 2019, 05:10:14 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 20, 2019, 04:03:43 PM
Very interesting. There has been little comment about my point regarding playing style effectively protecting the defence. In our promotion season we had the ball most of the time so this limited the opposition. We were however vulnerable and made mistakes just like we did this last season. The difference was, the opposition did not punish us so harshly.
Now it may be that Scott has us playing with 70% possession however I doubt it and even if he did, we were and still will be vulnerable. Players like Ream MLM and Odoi are good on the ball but defensively not the strongest and they make mistakes on a regular basis. Mawson is still a risk but will hopefully be excellent next season. I really feel we need a strong leader next to maybe Mawson. I would love our current players to prove me wrong but I just don't have the confidence in them. I think we lack leadership, strength and height.
I said in my earlier post that if we lost Mitro we need a rethink up front. For me Mitro is critical to us next season. I think another striker with Mitro is important but think in Ayite and potentially Kamara we have enough to back us up striker wise. Kebano is a squad player and hope we offload Fonte.
Prioritise for me, the following starting 11.
1. New central defender
2. New right back
3. New striker next to Mitro
4. Fast wide man
If we kept most current players and added those, I think we would be well set.
Can't argue with a lot of that. I'd argue we need more than just 2 additions to the back 4. I actually think in the middle and up front our current team as is, is, and was good enough for the PL with a proper back 4.
Time will tell whether TK can do it. It's hard to imagine him doing any worse.
Agreed, the back 4 for me is the real problem and has been for a very long time. We were just able to overcome it in the championship.
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 20, 2019, 04:03:43 PM
Very interesting. There has been little comment about my point regarding playing style effectively protecting the defence. In our promotion season we had the ball most of the time so this limited the opposition. We were however vulnerable and made mistakes just like we did this last season. The difference was, the opposition did not punish us so harshly.
Now it may be that Scott has us playing with 70% possession however I doubt it and even if he did, we were and still will be vulnerable. Players like Ream MLM and Odoi are good on the ball but defensively not the strongest and they make mistakes on a regular basis. Mawson is still a risk but will hopefully be excellent next season. I really feel we need a strong leader next to maybe Mawson. I would love our current players to prove me wrong but I just don't have the confidence in them. I think we lack leadership, strength and height.
I said in my earlier post that if we lost Mitro we need a rethink up front. For me Mitro is critical to us next season. I think another striker with Mitro is important but think in Ayite and potentially Kamara we have enough to back us up striker wise. Kebano is a squad player and hope we offload Fonte.
Prioritise for me, the following starting 11.
1. New central defender
2. New right back
3. New striker next to Mitro
4. Fast wide man
If we kept most current players and added those, I think we would be well set.
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Fulham is fine in the midfield with Stefjo, Cairney, Angui, Cesse..and any of our young prospects.
The back and front need two players each.
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 20, 2019, 04:03:43 PM
There has been little comment about my point regarding playing style...
Now it may be that Scott has us playing with 70% possession however I doubt it
My comment on the playing style would be very simple:
I see no reason to doubt that we'll play the same possession-based football next season
Therefore I do not see any reason to worry about problems that didn't hold us back in 17/18
Quote from: Statto on May 20, 2019, 07:59:35 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 20, 2019, 04:03:43 PM
There has been little comment about my point regarding playing style...
Now it may be that Scott has us playing with 70% possession however I doubt it
My comment on the playing style would be very simple:
I see no reason to doubt that we'll play the same possession-based football next season
Therefore I do not see any reason to worry about problems that didn't hold us back in 17/18
Fulham's best chance is to repeat the playing style of 16/17 and 17/18, with some minor improvements in defence (ie Mawson +Kalas as backup), midfield (ie Anguissa) and upfront (ie Mitro all season and Sess multiple replacements). Depth is key, automatic promotion in the championship is a marathon where you most beat weak teams even with injuries in the squad.
The great thing about Slavisa's style is it overpowers weaker teams. Sheffield United scored in 23 of the 24 games against lower half championship teams, which is why SU got promoted even though SU only got maximium points in 9 of 22 games against top half teams, getting promoted requires mostly destroying weak teams, possession based football helps to do that.
If you consider Fulham performance against the bottom 35% of premier league with 6 wins, 1 draw and 5 loses, then it is comparable to Sheffield's United record against the top half of championship with 9 wins, 5 draws and 8 loses.
Norwich were similar as they scored in 43 of 46 games last season which got them promoted, even though against top six teams they 3 wins, 3 draws and 4 loses. We need to avoid being like is Stoke who even though they got 6 wins, 8 draws and 6 loses against top ten teams, they failed to score in 10 of 22 games against bottom half teams.
We just need to keep what we have plus build a squad that destroy the bottom half consistently. Bringing in player like Norwood, Kalas and Piazon add the depth that builds consistency. Bottom half teams just aim to draw against former premier league teams, attack needs to break them down.
Quote from: WindyCity on May 20, 2019, 03:50:39 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on May 20, 2019, 09:30:30 AM
Quote from: @jolslover on May 20, 2019, 07:47:22 AM
I think honestly our defence is good enough for automatics, Ream was one of most solid CBs in league last time we went up. If anything Le Marchand is a slightly better Ream. Mawson is a huge upgrade on Odoi as well. The only position we are weaker at is RB as I think Bryan and Targett are pretty much the same level.
Completely agree. The defence is in a very good position as it is, with new comings not necessarily needed. If we can improve, great.
Can't agree boys. If FFC stands pat on defense next season, I see a world of hurt. JMHO.
A defence of Bettinelli; Christie, Mawson, Ream, Bryan would be bettered by what current defence in the Championship?
And all with have another summer of Stuart Gray teachings under their belt. Still a major factor to why we were relegated IMO, why exactly was he let go?
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on May 21, 2019, 08:37:14 AM
Quote from: WindyCity on May 20, 2019, 03:50:39 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on May 20, 2019, 09:30:30 AM
Quote from: @jolslover on May 20, 2019, 07:47:22 AM
I think honestly our defence is good enough for automatics, Ream was one of most solid CBs in league last time we went up. If anything Le Marchand is a slightly better Ream. Mawson is a huge upgrade on Odoi as well. The only position we are weaker at is RB as I think Bryan and Targett are pretty much the same level.
Completely agree. The defence is in a very good position as it is, with new comings not necessarily needed. If we can improve, great.
Can't agree boys. If FFC stands pat on defense next season, I see a world of hurt. JMHO.
A defence of Bettinelli; Christie, Mawson, Ream, Bryan would be bettered by what current defence in the Championship?
And all with have another summer of Stuart Gray teachings under their belt. Still a major factor to why we were relegated IMO, why exactly was he let go?
Stuart Gray is great and so is the back five first XI, but the reserves Fabri, Odoi, Djola, MLM and S.Sess need a centre back reinforcement (like Kalas) to get Djalo out of the 2nd XI into the 3rd XI. A lot of defences in the championship have a second XI that Djola wouldn't make.
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 20, 2019, 04:03:43 PM
Very interesting. There has been little comment about my point regarding playing style effectively protecting the defence. In our promotion season we had the ball most of the time so this limited the opposition. We were however vulnerable and made mistakes just like we did this last season. The difference was, the opposition did not punish us so harshly.
Now it may be that Scott has us playing with 70% possession however I doubt it and even if he did, we were and still will be vulnerable.
I agree with all the above since our style for both Jokanovic's Championship seasons was to play the opposition out of the game. Jokanovic repeatedly made references to players needing to be brave (in possession and passing) and him accepting responsibility for the breakdowns. We could score goals from just about anywhere and anyone. Jokanovic also said he'd like a few clean sheets. All of the SJ pronouncements were references to the need to have quality at the back with players confident on the ball, in supporting roles for those in possession, and able to recycle the ball on either flank and up the middle. All that should have coloured our recruitment requirements profile, but it didn't. We did not retain what works and improve what doesn't.
Most of the crucial damage in the PL season was caused by giving possession up too easily which is a factor in failing to support team mates and not having balanced driving forces on either flank. Once again that is a recruitment failure.
Quote from: toshes mate on May 21, 2019, 09:41:29 AM
Most of the crucial damage in the PL season was caused by giving possession up too easily which is a factor in failing to support team mates and not having balanced driving forces on either flank. Once again that is a recruitment failure.
Good point, it did come from a lot of passing errors, which also suggests a failure to adapt the playing style to the opposition.
Playing like Man City in the championship with possession is fine, but Slav needed to play more like Watford or Bournemouth when we got to the Prem
Quote from: snarks on May 21, 2019, 10:13:15 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on May 21, 2019, 09:41:29 AM
Most of the crucial damage in the PL season was caused by giving possession up too easily which is a factor in failing to support team mates and not having balanced driving forces on either flank. Once again that is a recruitment failure.
Good point, it did come from a lot of passing errors, which also suggests a failure to adapt the playing style to the opposition.
Playing like Man City in the championship with possession is fine, but Slav needed to play more like Watford or Bournemouth when we got to the Prem
Agree that Jokanovic 'had to do something different to his Championship style' simply because of the recruitment influx which gave him just too many problems to sort out once the season had started. I do believe that had we retained the whole of the important promotion team/squad members with an additional central defender, a decent and pacy right back to replace Fredericks, a defensive midfielder with pace, guile, passing ability and aggression, a right wing midfielder of quality, and a good striker to supplement Mitrovic, then we may have had a more rewarding outcome to the season and also retained Jokanovic for the duration. But we will never know.
Quote from: Sting of the North on May 20, 2019, 04:12:09 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on May 20, 2019, 03:52:27 PM
Your kidding aren't you?
The implication of what I said is that the players brought in did not constitute getting an appropriately capable defence. Chhambers, not rated by Arsenal supporters I know proved he was poor at CB, Bryan was first injured for ages and really a rather poor derefensder to the end, unable to deal with Prem standard wing playing not knowing when to hld or when to close down. TFM, was not interested and poor, MLM dreadful and Mawsom unfit. So if you must yes the wrong players, it is splitting hairs because it was neglient. Bryan would eb an OKish squad player at prem level but we needed rather betyter and we got nobody capable at all at RB, so negligent.
As far as anguisa, the less said the better he is a total waste of space..a couple of semi better games near the season do not impress me much, the last two games for him were business as usual, shockers!
I think the poor quality brought in proves they did not know what was needed because we had a less good defence than the one we had before and that was hardly impressive.
No, I'm not kidding, I just didn't agree with your post, which to me implicated that you believe that the recruitment team was not aware that we needed to strengthen in defence. As per usual, contrary opinions shouldn't be a surprise on a message board.
And, in my opinion this is not splitting hairs at all. It is two completely different things, namely being able to identify a need versus being able to find a suitable solution for that need. Or, if you will the difference between ignoring a problem or failing to address said problem. The outcome may ultimately be the same, but for different reasons. They obviously did the former, at least to an extent. It is more debatable if they managed the latter however, although I don't at all agree with your level of berating the recruitment. I believe there were bigger problems than the players recruited as such, namely the number of players needed and the lateness of the arrivals. Combine this with the lack of patience with Slav, the dubious subsequent appointment of a coach unlikely to gel with the type of players we had, and you have concocted a real mess that turned out to be too much for the club to come back from in the short term.
The recruited players seen in isolation were in my opinion for the most part at least ok, and many of them seemed to make sense. The problem for TK and the gang is of course that things can not be seen in isolation, and as such the players acquired were not enough to make up for other shortcomings.
Lastly, just to make it clear, this is my opinion and not meant to be taken as a joke. I will also give you the courtesy of assuming that your comments, however much I may disagree with them or find them unreasonable at times, are meant to reflect your opinion and not meant to be funny (unless indicated otherwise).
Point taken, what you say is perfectly reasonable.
But I happen to think you could have allowed me a little poetic licence. Just getting arms and legs to me is not much different to not getting anyone all... but I accept all you say. Perhaps you would have prefered a more accurate, needed a defense and got players that were nominally called defenders but in fact turned out to be nowhere near good enough. And for that I hold TK and the whole senior management of the club totally responsible because that is what I beliebve to be the case.
In the end, we shall have to see whether lessons have been learned, I suspect not but hope springs eternal.
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 19, 2019, 10:53:22 PM
I just watched the last 30 minutes again of the fantastic 2-0 win in the Semi Final v Derby for the first time this season.
What you notice is our great possession play, but also the absolutely terrible mistakes made in defence. Our back line in the Premier League was very similar and that back 4 and was frankly a relatively average defensive unit. Great going forward yes, but made too many mistakes. To even think that defence could handle the Premier League was madness and just re-confirmed my view that only really adding an injured Mawson was the great mistake of last summers transfer dealings.
We love Tim Ream, but defensively he is not good enough, he made about 3 critical errors in that last 30 mins v Derby that could have cost us, the difference then was that Derby unlike most Premier teams did not punish us.
Max is a decent squad player but we need to sign at least one very good championship central defender as a top priority this summer.
Agreed with all of this Stu
and Max scares the life out of me every time he gets the ball tbh.
Quote from: Sting of the North on May 20, 2019, 04:12:09 PM
It is two completely different things, namely being able to identify a need versus being able to find a suitable solution for that need. Or, if you will the difference between ignoring a problem or failing to address said problem. The outcome may ultimately be the same, but for different reasons. They obviously did the former, at least to an extent. It is more debatable if they managed the latter.
In isolation from the context of the Khans' time at FFC, this makes sense, as in everybody was on the same page about what was required, and the problem was purely in delivery. It was to happen in Winter 2019 too (the might have beens' that never were). I think the issue surrounds the record of recruitment under the years containing almost a whole team sized range of managers/coaches. That record, of course, also encompasses the successful players recruited either permanently or as loans.
Undeniably some of those recruits have been instrumental to success. But what of the problem positions which became critical to Jokanovic's style, formations, and player profiles. He wanted players with pace, aggression, ability and willingness to learn how to adapt to a style of football very popular among successful clubs, but often he was given last minute best fits. The recruiters had no shortage of blue prints on which to determine suitability even for players sold on - McCormack, Dembele, Malone, Aluko, for example - and yet we ended up with a large number of duds too, unsuited to anything FFC could offer them. Even if Jokanovic never spoke a word of English to the recruiters and scouts they should have been savvy enough to know what was required. Even if TK wanted no interference with his recruitment regime (and only Mitrovic shows to be an exception to that rule, superficially in any event) then he must at least be wanting to service the Club to succeed and not fail. And so what input did the Talbot's have, or were they bystanders or, worse, 'yes people'?
When you look at the problem in context rather than in isolation then it seems as if May 2018 just went to some people's heads and I don't believe that Jokanovic was a guilty party. Indeed I believe he was the only one who could say to others 'well if you did your jobs as well as I do mine, safety in the PL would be a relatively straightforward job'. He couldn't say that because he knew nobody was listening and they hadn't been listening even when SJ was delivering spot on target. It is recruitment failure and although it may be rather complex to identify the reason, heads must role at the senior level if that team cannot deliver better. Get a charismatic DoF in a see how many suitors turn up at FFC's door. If it isn't any better that life under TK then fair enough the problem lies elsewhere, but why should TK remain in situ when he has been found so lacking?
Quote from: ALG01 on May 21, 2019, 12:07:01 PM
Point taken, what you say is perfectly reasonable.
But I happen to think you could have allowed me a little poetic licence. Just getting arms and legs to me is not much different to not getting anyone all... but I accept all you say. Perhaps you would have prefered a more accurate, needed a defense and got players that were nominally called defenders but in fact turned out to be nowhere near good enough. And for that I hold TK and the whole senior management of the club totally responsible because that is what I beliebve to be the case.
In the end, we shall have to see whether lessons have been learned, I suspect not but hope springs eternal.
I didn't mean to be derive you of any poetic license, it was just in my opinion an important difference. I fully understand and respect that it may very well be no need to take what you write so literal however, and appreciate your explanation above. I still don't agree on your conclusion that the defenders brought in were so bad that they could never be good enough, but am happy to concede that this is very much an area where opinions can differ a lot.
So, we may disagree on whether the plan was good or whether recruitment was reasonable or unreasonable. We may also disagree to various degrees on how good, bad or indifferent the intentions of the upper management were, or whether or not they are completely incompetent. I believe however that we can agree that at the end of the day they failed with their objective (since I believe it is fair to assume that they at the very least aimed for survival). For that I also agree that they have to take responsibility. If that is by stepping down, or improving doesn't matter much to me, as long as we are not stuck in a downwards spiral.
I join you therefore in hoping that lessons have been learned, albeit I am probably a tad more optimistic about the possibilities of than you are.
Cheers to a good summer 082.gif
FWIW I 100% agree with SotN that there's a huge difference between (a) not signing any defenders and (b) making lots of defensive signings that, for a combination of reasons, didn't work. It's the difference between a lack of effort and a lack of competence, and as always with TK, you can accuse of him of the latter but not the former.
Unfortunately for him and us, he's yet to appreciate that effort alone doesn't get you success in this game.
It probably won't help matters if we all vote Chambers our player of the year, since as far as I can tell those votes will be based on him trying hard and "getting stuck in" rather than being a talented midfielder. And of course TK and his ego will interpret it as one of his signings being a success.
Quote from: Sting of the North on May 21, 2019, 01:23:50 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on May 21, 2019, 12:07:01 PM
Point taken, what you say is perfectly reasonable.
But I happen to think you could have allowed me a little poetic licence. Just getting arms and legs to me is not much different to not getting anyone all... but I accept all you say. Perhaps you would have prefered a more accurate, needed a defense and got players that were nominally called defenders but in fact turned out to be nowhere near good enough. And for that I hold TK and the whole senior management of the club totally responsible because that is what I beliebve to be the case.
In the end, we shall have to see whether lessons have been learned, I suspect not but hope springs eternal.
I didn't mean to be derive you of any poetic license, it was just in my opinion an important difference. I fully understand and respect that it may very well be no need to take what you write so literal however, and appreciate your explanation above. I still don't agree on your conclusion that the defenders brought in were so bad that they could never be good enough, but am happy to concede that this is very much an area where opinions can differ a lot.
So, we may disagree on whether the plan was good or whether recruitment was reasonable or unreasonable. We may also disagree to various degrees on how good, bad or indifferent the intentions of the upper management were, or whether or not they are completely incompetent. I believe however that we can agree that at the end of the day they failed with their objective (since I believe it is fair to assume that they at the very least aimed for survival). For that I also agree that they have to take responsibility. If that is by stepping down, or improving doesn't matter much to me, as long as we are not stuck in a downwards spiral.
I join you therefore in hoping that lessons have been learned, albeit I am probably a tad more optimistic about the possibilities of than you are.
Cheers to a good summer 082.gif
I agree the clubs objective from 2016/17 to 2022/23 is "survival in the premier league
payment system long-term" (ie FFC recieving premier league tv money including parcachate payments for 20 years +), which means never having a squad that can get relegated and not bounce straight back up with automatic promotion. Tony Khan can fully redeem himself if he can give FFC a squad 19/20 better than Newcastle 16/17, Wolves 17/18 or Fulham 2nd half of 17/18. A good DoF avoids relegation, but a great DoF has prepared for a comeback in advance.
FFC and TK haven't failed long-term yet, we went close in 17/18 to failure, but now we have the money to get back to EPL. What Fulham needs to avoid is the blame game for the relegation, we need to focus on being better than 17/18.
Being better than 17/18 needs to start with step 1 - ensure Mitro, Anguiisa, Bryan and current 17/18 squad members are at FFC all next season, step 2 - buy Kalas/Piazon to add depth immediately, step 3 - replacing Sessegnon with a premier league winger immediately, step 4- get a top championship right winger and backup striker, step 5 - have a good pre-season and step 6 - buy players to fill any other gaps that appear around deadline day or earlier.
Quote from: Sting of the North on May 21, 2019, 01:23:50 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on May 21, 2019, 12:07:01 PM
Point taken, what you say is perfectly reasonable.
But I happen to think you could have allowed me a little poetic licence. Just getting arms and legs to me is not much different to not getting anyone all... but I accept all you say. Perhaps you would have prefered a more accurate, needed a defense and got players that were nominally called defenders but in fact turned out to be nowhere near good enough. And for that I hold TK and the whole senior management of the club totally responsible because that is what I beliebve to be the case.
In the end, we shall have to see whether lessons have been learned, I suspect not but hope springs eternal.
I didn't mean to be derive you of any poetic license, it was just in my opinion an important difference. I fully understand and respect that it may very well be no need to take what you write so literal however, and appreciate your explanation above. I still don't agree on your conclusion that the defenders brought in were so bad that they could never be good enough, but am happy to concede that this is very much an area where opinions can differ a lot.
So, we may disagree on whether the plan was good or whether recruitment was reasonable or unreasonable. We may also disagree to various degrees on how good, bad or indifferent the intentions of the upper management were, or whether or not they are completely incompetent. I believe however that we can agree that at the end of the day they failed with their objective (since I believe it is fair to assume that they at the very least aimed for survival). For that I also agree that they have to take responsibility. If that is by stepping down, or improving doesn't matter much to me, as long as we are not stuck in a downwards spiral.
I join you therefore in hoping that lessons have been learned, albeit I am probably a tad more optimistic about the possibilities of than you are.
Cheers to a good summer 082.gif
Seems to me that you two were violently agreeing, just putting things differently. And for what it's worth I tend to agree. Clearly the Khan's intention was PM survival or they wouldn't have splashed £110m on transfers. Equally obviously their decision making was poor and there was no clear strategy, leaving SJ with an unbalanced and less than competent (or in the case of one or two loanees less than motivated) squad.
The fault lies with Tony Khan. Is he capable of a big turnaround this year? Personally I am pessimistic but let's see.
Quote from: FulhamStu on May 20, 2019, 04:03:43 PM
Very interesting. There has been little comment about my point regarding playing style effectively protecting the defence. In our promotion season we had the ball most of the time so this limited the opposition. We were however vulnerable and made mistakes just like we did this last season. The difference was, the opposition did not punish us so harshly.
Now it may be that Scott has us playing with 70% possession however I doubt it and even if he did, we were and still will be vulnerable. Players like Ream MLM and Odoi are good on the ball but defensively not the strongest and they make mistakes on a regular basis. Mawson is still a risk but will hopefully be excellent next season. I really feel we need a strong leader next to maybe Mawson. I would love our current players to prove me wrong but I just don't have the confidence in them. I think we lack leadership, strength and height.
I said in my earlier post that if we lost Mitro we need a rethink up front. For me Mitro is critical to us next season. I think another striker with Mitro is important but think in Ayite and potentially Kamara we have enough to back us up striker wise. Kebano is a squad player and hope we offload Fonte.
Prioritise for me, the following starting 11.
1. New central defender
2. New right back
3. New striker next to Mitro
4. Fast wide man
If we kept most current players and added those, I think we would be well set.
100% agree Stu, we'll summarised
