But I don't believe we need a new RB. Certainly, there's other positions I'd prioritise.
Christie came in for plenty of criticism last season, some of it justified, but surely he's more than good enough for the Championship? He's proven at this level. Besides, we're stocked on promising young RBs in the shape of S Sessegnon, Fossey and Drameh. Odoi can
also play there.
I'd prefer to monitor the kids over pre season and give them a meaningful pathway into the first team, otherwise, we risk losing them. Should Christie or our other options prove inadequate, we can always reassess in the January window.
Thoughts?
Totally agree. Now is the time to blood some youth.
IMO
christie is a dreadful liability
If the younger players are showinf sufficient promise i am happy to play them.
Christie was proven in the championship but proven to be way below the required standard.
I'm not a huge fan of Christie but I would be ok with Odoi at RB. He's a lot better at RB than CB. Both are decent Championship RBs though.
Personally I think a CB, a backup striker and a winger (or two) are the most critical positions (provided we keep everyone currently in the squad, which we probably won't).
Quote from: ALG01 on July 06, 2019, 12:13:33 PM
IMO
christie is a dreadful liability
If the younger players are showinf sufficient promise i am happy to play them.
Christie was proven in the championship but proven to be way below the required standard.
He's only played for teams that have ever been in and around the top 6, so how's that proven he's not of the required standard? Truth is he's fine at this level, he's no Freddo but he had pace that's a rarity - yes you could get better than Christie at this level but it's going to cost money that could and should be spent on far more important positions. If he's a starter and Odoi/Steve Sess/Marlon Fossey push him for that spot then that's not really a bad thing
The anti-Cyrus Christie stuff is actually making me feel quite ill at the moment. Sure, he wasn't a good Premier League full back; he never has been a Premier League full back. What he has been is a playoff calibre full back of which the numbers and performances back up from his time in the division. Is he excellent? No, that's why he's played in the Championship for years.
In Championship standards, he's athletic, has great size which helps with set pieces and defended the back post. I think he can get forward well and with a genuine run of games we'll see the best of him.
I will not be stunned if Christie turns this feeling about him around this season, so yeah, I think we're good at right back, especially when you consider we've got Steven Sessegnon and Marlon Fossey in the squad as well. You'll never give young players game time if you just stock a position.
Personally I think Odoi, even though knee high to a grasshopper, he better as a back up CB.
Thats my opinion anyway 🤷🏼♂️
Sessegnon to start RB next season.
Quote from: Walsh on July 06, 2019, 02:52:03 PM
Sessegnon to start RB next season.
If he is still here
I don't see him kicking on to ever be Prem level. Whereas I think Bryan can.
Last season showed us we need players who can kick on .. otherwise we leave ourselves too many holes to fill in the summer when we go up..
If we go up..
Keep him on the books as a reliable sub.
I think RB is the most needed improvement position on the squad...but I agree with you.
I don't have faith that spending money on an outside player is needed when Drameh, Sess and Fossey might be good enough in that position.
Plus, as others have said..Odoi can cover in that spot as well.
Yes, it's Cyrus' job to lose...but I hope within 12 months time we've decided on someone else as Fuham's long term RB...and hopefully it's someone from the youth side.
Quote from: FPT on July 06, 2019, 01:49:09 PM
In Championship standards, he's athletic, has great size which helps with set pieces and defended the back post. I think he can get forward well and with a genuine run of games we'll see the best of him.
I don't know his career prior to Fulham, but was he known for his strength and height being an advantage for set piece defending?
He's athletic, yes, but it leans towards the strong side, not the agile side.
Perhaps we've all been spoiled by the likes of Ryan Fredericks (and me personally by other fast/agile fullbacks) but when I see them trying to use Cyrus the way that Ryan was used...because Cyrus isn't agile or fast as Ryan I always worry he'll get caught out because he was tired after his forward run and didn't get back quick enough (like Fredericks could do because of his wc pace).
I guess we'll see though. Speed alone isn't everything as proved by Timothy Fosu Mensah... (I say that knowing full well that TFM would be a fine championship side FB)
Let's not forget that Joka played Christie sparingly in the Championship but in games we needed more of a defender than Fred. Bristol away and most noticeably @ Wembley when we were down to 10 men and defending a lead.
I agree with the opening post
You cannot talk about full backs without considering who is ahead of them up the pitch. The flaws on both flanks were the most troublesome feature of last season's debacle and to be perfectly honest Christie is not a great defender or midfielder; he is mightily average. Even when running fast, no matter if for FFC or Ireland, he looks as though he is running through treacle. But, if he can be matched with a decent wide right midfielder (or let him be the wide right midfielder) with a sensationally adept partner then who knows what can happen? The flanks are key to making the whole core midfield have more of the game via space created by their threats something SJ worked hard to achieve.
Quote from: FPT on July 06, 2019, 01:49:09 PM
The anti-Cyrus Christie stuff is actually making me feel quite ill at the moment. Sure, he wasn't a good Premier League full back; he never has been a Premier League full back. What he has been is a playoff calibre full back of which the numbers and performances back up from his time in the division. Is he excellent? No, that's why he's played in the Championship for years.
In Championship standards, he's athletic, has great size which helps with set pieces and defended the back post. I think he can get forward well and with a genuine run of games we'll see the best of him.
I will not be stunned if Christie turns this feeling about him around this season, so yeah, I think we're good at right back, especially when you consider we've got Steven Sessegnon and Marlon Fossey in the squad as well. You'll never give young players game time if you just stock a position.
Agree.
Glad to see you back posting FPT.
Quote from: toshes mate on July 06, 2019, 07:17:58 PM
You cannot talk about full backs without considering who is ahead of them up the pitch. The flaws on both flanks were the most troublesome feature of last season's debacle and to be perfectly honest Christie is not a great defender or midfielder; he is mightily average. Even when running fast, no matter if for FFC or Ireland, he looks as though he is running through treacle. But, if he can be matched with a decent wide right midfielder (or let him be the wide right midfielder) with a sensationally adept partner then who knows what can happen? The flanks are key to making the whole core midfield have more of the game via space created by their threats something SJ worked hard to achieve.
First I've ever heard of treacle, but just on context alone I'm going to agree with you 100%. At best Christie is a middle of the pack championship midfielder who can't run, but might be able to do ok in the right partnership on the right side.
Is Floyd Ayite that player to bring out the best in Cyrus?
Odoi will do a good job as a championship right back.
Our priorities remain replacements for Sess. and Mitrovic when or if they leave, and it is important that they are quality replacements . Deadline day panic buys will not do.
Quote from: Deeping_white on July 06, 2019, 01:29:49 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on July 06, 2019, 12:13:33 PM
IMO
christie is a dreadful liability
If the younger players are showinf sufficient promise i am happy to play them.
Christie was proven in the championship but proven to be way below the required standard.
He's only played for teams that have ever been in and around the top 6, so how's that proven he's not of the required standard? Truth is he's fine at this level, he's no Freddo but he had pace that's a rarity - yes you could get better than Christie at this level but it's going to cost money that could and should be spent on far more important positions. If he's a starter and Odoi/Steve Sess/Marlon Fossey push him for that spot then that's not really a bad thing
I have seen him play... my judgement and most supporters i talk to at the stadium share the same or a very similar opinion. His fan club is a handful of posters on FoF
I'm surprised people are surprised Christie is having serious question marks to his name. He's sadly just not consistent enough. If we don't replace, and he stays and does well, awesome. But if we do go up, he's the no1 player needing replacing. He'll do ok and my assessment remains that we need to improve our wide men but let's not beat around the bush, he's ok, not good, not great, sometimes very poor. If our youngsters can't edge in front of Christie, you have to question why really.
Quote from: Classic94 on July 06, 2019, 11:26:15 AM
But I don't believe we need a new RB. Certainly, there's other positions I'd prioritise.
Christie came in for plenty of criticism last season, some of it justified, but surely he's more than good enough for the Championship? He's proven at this level. Besides, we're stocked on promising young RBs in the shape of S Sessegnon, Fossey and Drameh. Odoi can
also play there.
I'd prefer to monitor the kids over pre season and give them a meaningful pathway into the first team, otherwise, we risk losing them. Should Christie or our other options prove inadequate, we can always reassess in the January window.
Thoughts?
Agree
Plus you can get away with having average full backs more than you can get away with having average players in other more integral positions
Quote from: filham on July 06, 2019, 09:34:38 PM
Odoi will do a good job as a championship right back.
Our priorities remain replacements for Sess. and Mitrovic when or if they leave, and it is important that they are quality replacements . Deadline day panic buys will not do.
But unlike Matt Targett (expiring loan) and Ryan Fredericks (contract) both Sess and Mitro are under contract...so the owners already know they are going to be here unless Fulham say otherwise (not some other party like what happened with the two Fullbacks a year ago).
So we already have our starting left winger for this season. Already have our starting CF for this season.
I'm of the opinion RW is the more important position to address over the next 3 weeks. We have the other starting 9 outfield players under contract. (I don't think Ayite or AK47 are regular starters),
We don't have an obvious quality Right Back, but equally whoever is the backup right back out of Christie and Odoi is probably the best backup RB in the championship. The Championship is a marathon and we have a depth of five decent RBs, and there is no way i would say we have a great backup CF which is a more specialised position too. We may not have enough depth upfront and attacking lower table teams is still hard, although defending against them is not so hard.
The nonsense talked about Christie by some is rather rib tickling I find.
Christie is a good championship rb,and if he starts there at Barnsley I will be happy with that.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on July 07, 2019, 07:51:27 AM
The nonsense talked about Christie by some is rather rib tickling I find.
Christie is a good championship rb,and if he starts there at Barnsley I will be happy with that.
According to Transfermarket at Right Back Fulham have
i) the 7th most valuable right back in the championship in Christie
ii) the 14th most valuable right back with Odoi
iii) the 21st most valuable if S.Sess is worth £1.4m (he should be worth more)
iv) the 28th most valuable if Fossey is worth £700k (he should be worth more)
v) the 34th most valuable if Dramah s worth £450k (he should be worth more)
According to Transfermarket at Centre Forward Fulham have
i) the most valuable centre forward in Mitrovoic
ii) the 29th most valuable centre forward in Kamara
iii) the 34th most valuable centre forward in Fonte
iv) the 72nd most valuable if Cameron Thompson is worth £450k (and he isn't worth that much)
I think backup centre forwards is where we need someone most, about 14th would cost us 6 million at least
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on July 07, 2019, 07:51:27 AM
The nonsense talked about Christie by some is rather rib tickling I find.
Christie is a good championship rb,and if he starts there at Barnsley I will be happy with that.
The games about opinions. I think the championship is his level but i'm not sure he's an automatic promotion RB, top 6 with form sure. I made the case to why I think he's not the greatest option for a team wanting to win the league and he's struggled over the last 2 seasons to have any impact but if he starts, and he does well, he'll be supported.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 08, 2019, 12:56:04 AM
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on July 07, 2019, 07:51:27 AM
The nonsense talked about Christie by some is rather rib tickling I find.
Christie is a good championship rb,and if he starts there at Barnsley I will be happy with that.
According to Transfermarket at Right Back Fulham have
i) the 7th most valuable right back in the championship in Christie
ii) the 14th most valuable right back with Odoi
iii) the 21st most valuable if S.Sess is worth £1.4m (he should be worth more)
iv) the 28th most valuable if Fossey is worth £700k (he should be worth more)
v) the 34th most valuable if Dramah s worth £450k (he should be worth more)
According to Transfermarket at Centre Forward Fulham have
i) the most valuable centre forward in Mitrovoic
ii) the 29th most valuable centre forward in Kamara
iii) the 34th most valuable centre forward in Fonte
iv) the 72nd most valuable if Cameron Thompson is worth £450k (and he isn't worth that much)
I think backup centre forwards is where we need someone most, about 14th would cost us 6 million at least
Why do you come to the conclusion that for example Steven Sess is undervalued, and that Cameron Thompson is overvalued? Is that just to fit your narrative, or is there any substance to it (since as far as I know neither has shown that they belong in the professional game yet, even less close to the top)? I also think however that transfermarkt valuations are basically useless in these kinds of discussions, since they do not give a fair reflection of how the player in question could be expected to perform for his particular team in this particular point in time.
Lastly, we have as we can see two right backs and three centre forwards that are fairly established professionals. So I believe that based on your facts, your conclusion is wrong. I do also believe however that a good back up striker would add more to the squad than another right back, unless that right back was clearly a class above the current ones.
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 08, 2019, 10:02:33 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 08, 2019, 12:56:04 AM
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on July 07, 2019, 07:51:27 AM
The nonsense talked about Christie by some is rather rib tickling I find.
Christie is a good championship rb,and if he starts there at Barnsley I will be happy with that.
According to Transfermarket at Right Back Fulham have
i) the 7th most valuable right back in the championship in Christie
ii) the 14th most valuable right back with Odoi
iii) the 21st most valuable if S.Sess is worth £1.4m (he should be worth more)
iv) the 28th most valuable if Fossey is worth £700k (he should be worth more)
v) the 34th most valuable if Dramah s worth £450k (he should be worth more)
According to Transfermarket at Centre Forward Fulham have
i) the most valuable centre forward in Mitrovoic
ii) the 29th most valuable centre forward in Kamara
iii) the 34th most valuable centre forward in Fonte
iv) the 72nd most valuable if Cameron Thompson is worth £450k (and he isn't worth that much)
I think backup centre forwards is where we need someone most, about 14th would cost us 6 million at least
Why do you come to the conclusion that for example Steven Sess is undervalued, and that Cameron Thompson is overvalued? Is that just to fit your narrative, or is there any substance to it (since as far as I know neither has shown that they belong in the professional game yet, even less close to the top)? I also think however that transfermarkt valuations are basically useless in these kinds of discussions, since they do not give a fair reflection of how the player in question could be expected to perform for his particular team in this particular point in time.
Lastly, we have as we can see two right backs and three centre forwards that are fairly established professionals. So I believe that based on your facts, your conclusion is wrong. I do also believe however that a good back up striker would add more to the squad than another right back, unless that right back was clearly a class above the current ones.
I'd argue both are essential. If we start looking at worth in positions we have, we shouldn't forget we have Fonte as a alternative striker.....I know people won't like it but that seems to be the game we're playing.
Currently, I see a need for a CB. a RB, a LW, a RW and a striker....
Mmm - if we could bring in a RB who is quick a la Fredericks and 'has a good engine' then we should.
Christie is a solid defender and physically good enough for the Championship. However my problem with Cyrus is that he often appears to take an age to recover back to his defensive place quickly after he breaks forward and so leaving our overall defensive organisation weak. In contrast Fredericks had the pace not only to break past defensive lines with relative ease but used this pace to track back and catch up with attackers even when he was out of position.
I recall quite a few occasions last season where Odoi ended up acting as both RB and CB whilst Christie was still slowly getting back from the opposition half.
Not sure if it is an issue of stamina, confidence, poor tactical awareness, laziness or a combination of these as he can deliver a good cross on a good day.
Not seen enough of Christie at Championship level to make a judgement. All I'll say is he needs to be vastly improved on last season if he's gonna be a starter.
Quote from: Jims Dentist on July 06, 2019, 07:45:29 PM
Quote from: FPT on July 06, 2019, 01:49:09 PM
The anti-Cyrus Christie stuff is actually making me feel quite ill at the moment. Sure, he wasn't a good Premier League full back; he never has been a Premier League full back. What he has been is a playoff calibre full back of which the numbers and performances back up from his time in the division. Is he excellent? No, that's why he's played in the Championship for years.
In Championship standards, he's athletic, has great size which helps with set pieces and defended the back post. I think he can get forward well and with a genuine run of games we'll see the best of him.
I will not be stunned if Christie turns this feeling about him around this season, so yeah, I think we're good at right back, especially when you consider we've got Steven Sessegnon and Marlon Fossey in the squad as well. You'll never give young players game time if you just stock a position.
Agree.
Glad to see you back posting FPT.
Thanks :)
It won't be as regular as it was, but I'm looking more frequently at the moment. 049:gif
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 06, 2019, 05:44:18 PM
Quote from: FPT on July 06, 2019, 01:49:09 PM
In Championship standards, he's athletic, has great size which helps with set pieces and defended the back post. I think he can get forward well and with a genuine run of games we'll see the best of him.
I don't know his career prior to Fulham, but was he known for his strength and height being an advantage for set piece defending?
He's athletic, yes, but it leans towards the strong side, not the agile side.
Perhaps we've all been spoiled by the likes of Ryan Fredericks (and me personally by other fast/agile fullbacks) but when I see them trying to use Cyrus the way that Ryan was used...because Cyrus isn't agile or fast as Ryan I always worry he'll get caught out because he was tired after his forward run and didn't get back quick enough (like Fredericks could do because of his wc pace).
I guess we'll see though. Speed alone isn't everything as proved by Timothy Fosu Mensah... (I say that knowing full well that TFM would be a fine championship side FB)
We were absolutely spoiled by Ryan Fredericks who is one of the finer full backs to grace that division in recent years. That speed is something you can't teach and we never replaced it at any position in the Premier League last summer. Christie won't offer that,
I don't think I can say he was known for it but I think it's been clear on the eye so far (admittedly I watched him at both Derby and Middlesbrough so perhaps I have a larger pool of reference). His physical attributes have never been questioned, even when breaking through at Coventry.
Probably an important part of the equation is considering that Scott Parker had Timothy Fosu-Mensah as his starter at the right back position, and after his season was ended by injury, it was Denis Odoi until his head injury let Cyrus Christie in. That may say a lot about how he feels about it, and perhaps when a centre back (or two) come in, it'll become Denis' to lose.
If S Sess does not figure pre-season what is the point of him being here?
092.gif
Quote from: FPT on July 08, 2019, 04:20:40 PM
Probably an important part of the equation is considering that Scott Parker had Timothy Fosu-Mensah as his starter at the right back position, and after his season was ended by injury, it was Denis Odoi until his head injury let Cyrus Christie in. That may say a lot about how he feels about it, and perhaps when a centre back (or two) come in, it'll become Denis' to lose.
Yeah, I'm not sure if Scott see's Cyrus as more than just a backup either. Denis can play the starter role, but I really think Scott wants one of our younger players to grab the spot. I know he had Sess and Fossey training with the 1st team before the season ended...and Drameh has been in the recent training shots with Cyrus and Joe Bryan.
I believe Scott will make the right decision with that FB spot.
