Great as Wednesday's game was for us, let us, spare a thought for a Bury, one of this country's oldest clubs, previous cup winners, held the record for highest score in the cup final. Their fans now face the prospect. Of losing their football club. How would we feel, if it was us? Also, Bolton, not far behind.
Still think that the Premier League could help, by setting up a Contingency Fund, just help financially troubled clubs.
Their argument would be "when is it classed as financial difficulties and not just able to buy some players?"
The trouble is that where do you draw the line. Some clubs are in financial difficulty for various reasons. If it is due to poor ownership why should he be bailed out over an honest owner whose club lack income & can´t afford to pay wages & taxes.
My opinion has flipped flopped over the years.
Bury (and Bolton) are wonderful old traditional clubs that have been run into the ground by owners the like of which we are very familar with. Hard,hard nosed people who will ride the storm of any and all criticism and operate with criminal intent.
The deeds to the ground and land is their one and only priority, what people think of them matters not.
Often thought there should be some sort of fund, but, having followed the stories of several clubs in distress (including Bournemouth who were half an hour away from folding) over the years it would be folly to deliver money in to the hands of these fraudsters.
Good luck to both clubs, but, I fear even "a white Knight" would be rebuffed unless he/she was offering silly money.
Quote from: Fernhurst on August 23, 2019, 09:35:53 AM
My opinion has flipped flopped over the years.
Bury (and Bolton) are wonderful old traditional clubs that have been run into the ground by owners the like of which we are very familar with. Hard,hard nosed people who will ride the storm of any and all criticism and operate with criminal intent.
The deeds to the ground and land is their one and only priority, what people think of them matters not.
Often thought there should be some sort of fund, but, having followed the stories of several clubs in distress (including Bournemouth who were half an hour away from folding) over the years it would be folly to deliver money in to the hands of these fraudsters.
Good luck to both clubs, but, I fear even "a white Knight" would be rebuffed unless he/she was offering silly money.
Yes I agree with you, I don't want to see them fold, and the loyal supporters are the ones that suffer, as well as the staff.
That White Knight will have to hurry himself or herself up, as the sands of time are rapidly running out.
As usual it is the fans who will be distraught. Losing a football club that has been a part of your whole life is devastating. It is where you go or where you used to go. Where you met friends. What your family joked about and felt proud about in equal measure during the week.
Many of us remember when Fulham were close to being lost. I have been to Boltons old ground and to Bury many times. As well as shock I feel for the true football fans. Tradition and memories and experiences will be lost. A sad day for all football fans.
Quote from: Fernhurst on August 23, 2019, 09:35:53 AM
My opinion has flipped flopped over the years.
Bury (and Bolton) are wonderful old traditional clubs that have been run into the ground by owners the like of which we are very familar with. Hard,hard nosed people who will ride the storm of any and all criticism and operate with criminal intent.
The deeds to the ground and land is their one and only priority, what people think of them matters not.
Often thought there should be some sort of fund, but, having followed the stories of several clubs in distress (including Bournemouth who were half an hour away from folding) over the years it would be folly to deliver money in to the hands of these fraudsters.
Good luck to both clubs, but, I fear even "a white Knight" would be rebuffed unless he/she was offering silly money.
Totally agree Fernhurst. It is not my club but it has really got to me.
The EFL have apparently offered more time (days rather than weeks) for a solution to be found for Bury but the wretched truth is that these situations should not occur in our relatively wealthy football pyramid. The authorities should be watching over all football and ensuring that there is contingency when tragedy is about to strike. Whether it is Bury, Bolton or somewhere else it is still football's loss in the final analysis.
Perhaps some of the locals should start supporting them not Man U or Man City and going to their games. It is a crying shame I cant imagine how I would if it was Fulham, although we have had lose call in the past. Does anyone remember the collecting buckets and the coffin carried around the pitch at half time?
I find it astounding that no one is interested in them as a project. The debts are what, £5m? One of the oldest clubs with a fantastic old ground, and for relatively little further investment you could get them at least into the Championship. Surely one of these Arab/Russian/Chinese millionaires, or even just a local businessman, ex-player or consortium of investment bankers would be interested
Quote from: Statto on August 23, 2019, 10:21:42 AM
I find it astounding that no one is interested in them as a project. The debts are what, £5m? One of the oldest clubs with a fantastic old ground, and for relatively little further investment you could get them at least into the Championship. Surely one of these Arab/Russian/Chinese millionaires, or even just a local businessman, ex-player or consortium of investment bankers would be interested
I hope they can find a buyer, but really they have a very limited fan base, since 1980 here are there avg att and even a fan on Tv the other week said we really only have 3K
(https://i.ibb.co/4YVDDNK/att.jpg)
Of course any fund should not be for dubious owners. However, surely there is sufficient financial and legal ability in the Football world to ensure that any aid benefits the club and not the owner. Equally, the aid be sufficient to ensure that the club can meet its commitments. Just allowing clubs to go to the wall will only benefit speculators and property developers.
Quote from: MJG on August 23, 2019, 10:25:02 AM
Quote from: Statto on August 23, 2019, 10:21:42 AM
I find it astounding that no one is interested in them as a project. The debts are what, £5m? One of the oldest clubs with a fantastic old ground, and for relatively little further investment you could get them at least into the Championship. Surely one of these Arab/Russian/Chinese millionaires, or even just a local businessman, ex-player or consortium of investment bankers would be interested
I hope they can find a buyer, but really they have a very limited fan base, since 1980 here are there avg att and even a fan on Tv the other week said we really only have 3K
(https://i.ibb.co/4YVDDNK/att.jpg)
Not so long ago since our attendances. looked like that.
Quote from: Peabody on August 23, 2019, 10:30:33 AM
Quote from: MJG on August 23, 2019, 10:25:02 AM
Quote from: Statto on August 23, 2019, 10:21:42 AM
I find it astounding that no one is interested in them as a project. The debts are what, £5m? One of the oldest clubs with a fantastic old ground, and for relatively little further investment you could get them at least into the Championship. Surely one of these Arab/Russian/Chinese millionaires, or even just a local businessman, ex-player or consortium of investment bankers would be interested
I hope they can find a buyer, but really they have a very limited fan base, since 1980 here are there avg att and even a fan on Tv the other week said we really only have 3K
(https://i.ibb.co/4YVDDNK/att.jpg)
Not so long ago since our attendances. looked like that.
Not for that length of time tho
(https://i.ibb.co/rpzMGst/1970.jpg)
The three thousand who are still there are likely not going to switch teams anytime soon though. If they get moved to non-league football they have enough following that they should be able to make a comeback if they manage to get rid of their owner and go supporter owned instead.
Never before have so few people mattered so much in a debate about football in an era where gate receipts are not the most substantial influence upon sustainability.
Someone in authority has to lead the charge against greed for its own sake, but who could it possibly be given the background of those in charge? Still no replacement for the PL supremo speaks volumes for the mess football is making of itself.
Quote from: toshes mate on August 23, 2019, 11:09:06 AM
Never before have so few people mattered so much in a debate about football in an era where gate receipts are not the most substantial influence upon sustainability.
That era is really only for the Premier League and the Championship. You don't get big sponsor deals or TV money without being on TV.
Quote from: Tabby on August 23, 2019, 11:15:41 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on August 23, 2019, 11:09:06 AM
Never before have so few people mattered so much in a debate about football in an era where gate receipts are not the most substantial influence upon sustainability.
That era is really only for the Premier League and the Championship. You don't get big sponsor deals or TV money without being on TV.
Largely agree but how much would it cost to get promoted? £10m? If someone could put that sort of money in, then they're getting the Championship sponsor deals and £5m per season in solidarity payments and the odd game against the likes of Villa and Newcastle (when they inevitably come back down :005:) which would be a complete transformation vs where they are now
I do take MJG's point about the small fan base which might be a ceiling, although obviously Bournemouth are still doing well with only 10k fans
Quote from: Tabby on August 23, 2019, 11:15:41 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on August 23, 2019, 11:09:06 AM
Never before have so few people mattered so much in a debate about football in an era where gate receipts are not the most substantial influence upon sustainability.
That era is really only for the Premier League and the Championship. You don't get big sponsor deals or TV money without being on TV.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/premier-league-epl-efl-league-one-two-championship-miguel-delaney-a8926126.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/premier-league-epl-efl-league-one-two-championship-miguel-delaney-a8926126.html)
This article from May this year helps to explain why the divide between the tiers of the pyramid is a disaster in the making - the key word is 'interest' (of the non-financial definition). It is a reason why live gates need to become really important once more and clarifies why they may reduce so disastrously outside the upper echelons. The mass media should be ashamed.
Quote from: Statto on August 23, 2019, 11:37:40 AM
Quote from: Tabby on August 23, 2019, 11:15:41 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on August 23, 2019, 11:09:06 AM
Never before have so few people mattered so much in a debate about football in an era where gate receipts are not the most substantial influence upon sustainability.
That era is really only for the Premier League and the Championship. You don't get big sponsor deals or TV money without being on TV.
Largely agree but how much would it cost to get promoted? £10m? If someone could put that sort of money in, then they're getting the Championship sponsor deals and £5m per season in solidarity payments and the odd game against the likes of Villa and Newcastle (when they inevitably come back down :005:) which would be a complete transformation vs where they are now
I do take MJG's point about the small fan base which might be a ceiling, although obviously Bournemouth are still doing well with only 10k fans
Ive sometimes joked that the best way to deal with promotion to say the PL for clubs is to go up, have a look around, comedaown and take the money and help build a better club with it.
The touble is the jump from L2 to L1 is not as big and does not amke a difference.
Should the big clubs bail out the smaller ones in thses cases? there are arguments for an against. Whats needed are stricter rules on owners, bonds to the leagues and much more regulation and yes wage caps (but with a way to use investrors money if a sugar daddy comes along).
If the television rights pump over a billion quid into the premier league, they could put £100million of that into a contingency fund to prevent this very thing. Is disgusting.
Hopefully I'll win the lottery tonight and I'll invest.
Quote from: BigbadBillyMcKinley on August 23, 2019, 12:06:27 PM
If the television rights pump over a billion quid into the premier league, they could put £100million of that into a contingency fund to prevent this very thing. Is disgusting.
Agree to some extent but in fairness, they're already paying £250m per year in parachute payments and a further £100m per year in solidarity payments to all EFL clubs out of that £1b. It's easy to say they could put £x into a fund, but where does it stop, and as others have said, how do you decide when it's used? You can't just underwrite bad management and overspending.
Perhaps some of the locals should start supporting them not Man U or Man City and going to their games.
My thoughts exactly. I am often asked why I support Fulham and say it was because I was born there and have always supported my local team. Nowadays a lot of people seem to support the biggest club in their area instead. Sad but true.
Its sad to see this when the ones that suffer are the loyal supporters.
It amazes me though how when clubs get Big teams in cup matches ie say Port Vale vs Man City
the ground gets the armchair and out of the woodwork fan who couldn't tell you last weeks score.
If these people attended more (I appreciate work, Holidays etc would affect this) then that would financially
help too with clubs which is why I say Loyal supporters.
When we see the play off finals at Wembley and Last season for example Newport County Average attendence
3,409 yetvthe final attendance 25,217 so even if a Third of them were NCFC fans and attended more often surely
that would help these clubs.
Yes there needs a tougher fit and proper person ruling on owners but I feel this is only the start and more clubs
will follow sadly.
There was a boy in the Cambridge paper last year getting bullied by his classmates,he was only about 10,as he walks about with Cambridge City(non league top on) and all his class have got United and Liverpool tops....Boy supporting his local side and he gets bullied for it.
Another example the other day wife and I took bus in to Cambridge, it goes through village of Bottisham,just outside Cambridge.
This Dad got on with his 3 boys about 5,6 and 9,two of them with Manure tops on and the other with Liverpool, Cambridge Utd ground just a mile from Bottisham...Sad
The Bas**** who owns them Steve Dale is an asset stripper,43 of the 51 companies he has been involved with have gone into liquidation...
The EFL didn't do much investigation on him before he was allowed to buy them for a £1.
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on August 23, 2019, 05:22:01 PM
The Bas**** who owns them Steve Dale is an asset stripper,43 of the 51 companies he has been involved with have gone into liquidation...
The EFL didn't do much investigation on him before he was allowed to buy them for a £1.
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
yep and I'm sure I heard on the radio that someone offered him a £1 for the club who was going to save them and he said no.
May be good news. There are claims that a buyer has been found and the sale agreed. Here is hoping.
Yes indeed. Fingers crossed a buyer has been found and the club can be saved.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on August 23, 2019, 05:22:01 PM
The Bas**** who owns them Steve Dale is an asset stripper,43 of the 51 companies he has been involved with have gone into liquidation...
The EFL didn't do much investigation on him before he was allowed to buy them for a £1.
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
I was unaware of these facts........ Maybe the pressure and publicity has got to him and he has sold out for less than the 2 million he wanted. Not a bad return for a quid.
Not to oversimplify it, but I would go where you go.
Fulham is in my heart for the same reasons it is in yours.
MK Dons / Wimbledon everyone forgets, but I think of their supporters.
And we are Fulham, not AFC Wimbledon.
What else?
Quote from: Fulham 442 on August 23, 2019, 12:50:54 PM
Perhaps some of the locals should start supporting them not Man U or Man City and going to their games.
My thoughts exactly. I am often asked why I support Fulham and say it was because I was born there and have always supported my local team. Nowadays a lot of people seem to support the biggest club in their area instead. Sad but true.
This is a sad fact of life behind all these traditional 'community' based clubs going to the wall.
Bury is close to Manchester, with it's glamour clubs, and also not far from Liverpool, but if they even had a couple of thousand locals on their gate each week, it could make a difference.
But that is how it is now, with so much media publicity given to glamour clubs and the soap opera activities of their big stars, and the decline in the idea of foll owing your local club, often through generations.
This also makes them prey to unscrupulous 'businessmen', who only want to exploit the club's assets and couldn't care less about their long term survival, or importance to the community. These clubs could be made into social and sporting hubs for local people, as well as football teams with an illustrious history that shouldn't just be allowed to disappear through hard economics.
It is a dilemma of the modern game - many football clubs have often been enabled to exist through the largess of local wealthy fans, who own clubs they've always supported as a hobby,but now it's become much more of a business, with a lot of money to be made at the top levels of the game, and the whole social and economic climate has changed, with land at a premium, and little room for sentiment and feelings of community solidarity.
But people still crave these things, but maybe aren't willing or able to put their feet where their feelings are, and get along and pay to watch these clubs play, even if they are only mid table in a lower league. Now success is all important, it seems, and the idea of following your club through thick and thin, as many loyal Fulham fans have done of course, is sadly going out of fashion.
i just posted in support of Bury on the EFL Page, which i put on the end " From a fulham fan" Then some woman from Huddersfield told me im merely a "Admirer not a fan" Cause fans go to the matches and i should support "Where im born" :doh: :doh: :doh:
This sad story reminds me of Hereford United,first club that i really loved in UK...Most of time in conference or ligue2,with few flashes like promotion to ligue 1 and win at wembley....with relative big history for one small club in province full of cows...win in fa cup against newcastle in mid 70s..etc etc..Becouse of stupid owner they get kicked to ligue 7..change name..now just Hereford..and stagnate there...without chance in near future to get where they belongs
The following solitary paragraph of debt snipped from a journalist's summary sums sup what may be the ineptitude, naivety and stupidity of Dale as an owner rather than for more sinister motive.
"Last month Dale succeeded in having a company voluntary arrangement (CVA) approved which offered non-football creditors a quarter of £4m they were owed. Those debts will need to be paid by Campbell and Newman if they take over, as well as the players' back wages and other "football creditors" said now to be around £750,000, and funding of expected £1.5m losses for the season. They may also want to pay off a mortgage on Gigg Lane taken out by Day with a company, Capital Bridging Finance Solutions, now said by Dale to be up to £3.7m."
At least the 'prospective buyers' are going through the books rather more carefully than it would seem Dale did, and will perhaps use any capital they have to undo most of the damage Dale has done - if they choose to go ahead. Never before has a data analytics business seemed such a natural owner for a football club than now. Twelve points off the total may condemn the club in the short term but at least they still have four games to play which could wipe the deficit off. Let's hope the sale happens.
They were talking about Bury last night on wireless 5 and supporters were ringing in. There was one chap whose father had been a season ticket holder all his life and the caller had followed suit. He has an autistic son and the one thing in his innocent life that he loves is to watch Bury play. They went to every game, home and away, last season and now his son cannot understand why there are football results but no Bury games.
I really hope that this Dale twerp is going to be brought out this morning.
092.gif
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on August 23, 2019, 05:22:01 PM
The Bas**** who owns them Steve Dale is an asset stripper,43 of the 51 companies he has been involved with have gone into liquidation...
The EFL didn't do much investigation on him before he was allowed to buy them for a £1.
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
Shows how vigilant the EFL are...not. They love to fawn about with the big clubs and basically sod the rest. :031:
092.gif
During the aftermath of the Allardyce Debacle, the FA famously stated they 'didn't know [Allardyce] would do that' which is precisely the information due diligence is intended to provide the would be employer, employee, seller, or buyer with. What gives in one business - the FA for example - is generally a significant guide to the market conditions at the time in markedly similar businesses, again a product of due diligence the intelligence gathering that all savvy business people undertake to understand both their competitors and would be allies.
If these businesses cannot be trusted to comply with even their own apparently very modest requirements of would be employees then how on earth are they to be trusted with something much more important to others in similar businesses? In short should we have independent arbiters looking at and investigating football businesses and even having the muscle to stamp out incompetency before it occurs. Of course, guaranteeing we could find such independence in this day and age is another rather uneasy question for those delivering due diligence.
Officially expelled from football league. :016:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49451896
Bury have been expelled by the English Football League after a takeover bid from C&N Sporting Risk collapsed.
The League One club had been given until 17:00 BST on Tuesday to complete the deal, having been granted an extension to Friday's initial deadline.
Bury are the first team to drop out of the EFL since Maidstone's liquidation in 1992.
Giving more o eye to poorly run clubs wont help, owners be they dubious or just not up to speed, will still pay more on wages and spend more on transfers as they have more money, it won't change how. They are run.
I feel for Bury and Bolton and more so for the fans. The EFL are partly to blame but not solely.
Seems the takeover fell through because the buyer needed more time to carry out its due diligence. So what is the EFL's urgency to expel them now? I can understand the need to stop cancelling fixtures at short notice so perhaps they should be suspended until the end of the season, with all their games confirmed forfeited. But if they can finalise a takeover by next April/May, why not just relegate them and let them back in as a League Two club next season ? Nothing is going to change between now and the end of the season - a different club isn't going to take their place in League One between now and then.
I guess because they set a precedence with Maidstone all those years ago, but it's a good point
Gone......Well done EFL for saving them not.
Fans crying outside the ground...Terrible day for
English Football.😢😢😢😢😢
I'm probably in a minority of 1 but I don't see a problem with the demise of clubs. It may be sad at the time but life goes on & people will find other ways to spend their Saturdays.
AFC Wimbledon have shown the way ahead for a club with too few paying spectators to end up with a more democratically owned/run club. If Bury fans care enough, that is what they should now be looking to do. This is only a disaster if those Bury fans now do nothing.
Quote from: deadcowboys on August 28, 2019, 07:48:34 AM
I'm probably in a minority of 1 but I don't see a problem with the demise of clubs. It may be sad at the time but life goes on & people will find other ways to spend their Saturdays.
AFC Wimbledon have shown the way ahead for a club with too few paying spectators to end up with a more democratically owned/run club. If Bury fans care enough, that is what they should now be looking to do. This is only a disaster if those Bury fans now do nothing.
Shocking, how would you feel if that was FUlham? It could have been before Jimmy Hill stepped in and then Al Fayed.
C&N Sporting Risk, the prospective buyers, issued a statement last night saying the failure of their takeover was due to the mismanagement of Bury FC over a number of years, particularly centering on the mortgage arrangements for Gigg Lane. The local MP has also stated that given what has been revealed from the failed bid and Bury's expulsion is that quite a few clubs may be just one more defaulted payment away from demise, but I fear that is avoiding the honest truth that many influential people connected either in football or not have failed to act when it was appropriate to do so in the past. Blaming Dale for destroying the Club is really no more than pointing a finger at the last character suspected of wounding when the victim's body is disfigured by many historical but equally fatal wounds.
Please let there be hope Bury FC will be reinvented for 2020-21 and Gigg Lane not sold off. The EFL must investigate how this happened and why their due diligence test failed to detect the issues at stake.
For years many lower league clubs, and bigger ones too, have been living way beyond their means. However there has always been the civic pride and benefactors that have rescued them. In truth it is a suprise that we still have 92 professional clubs. People have been saying all that since i was a child.
Football is generally badly run, awash with money but nevertheless badly run. even top teams are often funded by debt that cannot be paid off if push came to shove. In the real world real madrid would not exist as a business but are propped up by bankers that support them so the playing field is very uneven.
FFP dioes not do what it was set up to do namely stop teams from bbuying success by taking out ridiclous loans that could never be repaid. Most teams cannot survive on the gate alone, some top prem teams, I understand, do not even need gate receipts to make mone, and yet without the oil money, man city would not be the team they are, they would be back with sunderland in the lower league.... and bury are stiched up for a few mismanaged pounds.
But for MAF we may well not have survived until now because as a lower league team with crowds of 4,000 or less in central london, we were a financial disaster area without ownership of our own ground. I do not have an answer to any of this but I do not football is very morally bankrupt, it has been since Arsenal cheated Chelsea, and were allowed to steal Herbert Chapman from Huddrsfield, it is just the scale of the thing nowadays is so much greater.
I feel for the Bury fans, it could so easilly have been us, and may yet be in the future unless we can break into the elite group, and the chance of that is unlikely to say the least.
Quote from: toshes mate on August 28, 2019, 08:12:30 AM
Blaming Dale for destroying the Club is really no more than pointing a finger at the last character suspected of wounding when the victim's body is disfigured by many historical but equally fatal wounds.
I entirely agree the previous owner and football authorities deserve a share of the blame but there are specific complaints that one can have about Dale.
It was reported in the Sun that previous takeovers didn't happen because he was demanding a £500k - £800k (down from £2m initially) fee for his services.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/9781371/bury-efl-steve-dale-debt-save/
It was also reported in the Guardian a few days ago that the previous owner, who was owed £7m, effectively agreed to write off 99% of that by selling the debt to Dale's relative (his daughter's partner) for £70k. However, according to the report, Dale's relative then used that to bring about the CVA under which he'd get 25p in the £1, so £1.75m.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/23/bury-company-debt-cva-steve-dale-daughter
Terrible if true IMO
You gotta laugh at the snake Jeremy Corbyn,being slagged on line by their fans for using the situation to try gain Labour votes...Sorry snakes he's lower than one of you are.
Quote from: Statto on August 28, 2019, 09:00:23 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on August 28, 2019, 08:12:30 AM
Blaming Dale for destroying the Club is really no more than pointing a finger at the last character suspected of wounding when the victim's body is disfigured by many historical but equally fatal wounds.
I entirely agree the previous owner and football authorities deserve a share of the blame but there are specific complaints that one can have about Dale.
It was widely reported that several previous takeover negotiations broke down because he was demanding a £500k - £800k (possibly even higher initially) fee for his "services".
It was also reported in the Guardian a few days ago that the previous owner, who was owed £7m, effectively agreed to write off 99% of that by selling the debt to Dale's relative for £70k. However, according to the report, Dale's relative then used that to engineer the CVA under which he'd get 25p in the £1, so £1.75m.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/23/bury-company-debt-cva-steve-dale-daughter
Terrible if true IMO
Absolutely concur that Dale has appeared to have acted recklessly and without responsibility, that the dubious dealings so far reported are probably tip-of-the-iceberg stuff and he was the steward when the plug was pulled. Had he been properly advised (as were C&N Sporting Risk after 72 hours of financial record checking) then would he have ventured his one pound? C&N Sporting Risk are implying Bury was a no go long before Dale came along, and so why didn't the EFL and the FFP checks pick this up?
I also feel, as ALG01 says above, that football is living on a debt mountain. After all, FFP is largely about controlling debt and yet much of Bury's debt was apparently deliberately hidden from plain sight.
The owner of the club is entitled to do as they want with it.
If they want to invest that is their business. If they want to shut it down, it is a similar story
Quote from: deadcowboys on August 28, 2019, 07:48:34 AM
I'm probably in a minority of 1 but I don't see a problem with the demise of clubs. It may be sad at the time but life goes on & people will find other ways to spend their Saturdays.
Yes, I think that's about the size of that minority. How weird.
This is a fairly definite article about the mess Bury were in as far back as 2014. It is a heartbreaking glimpse of reality for anyone looking for romance in their relationship as a supporter of a long standing professional football club.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/27/bury-historic-club-football-league-financial-ruins (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/27/bury-historic-club-football-league-financial-ruins)
Its sad for all the people of Bury. Yes some people can find something else to do on a Saturday but it is what having a football club brings to an Area. Even publicity. Well they have got that in spade loads for the last time. The football league are toothless. they should be helping to save clubs and not forcing their hand and helping to kill them off
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on August 28, 2019, 09:24:16 AM
You gotta laugh at the snake Jeremy Corbyn,being slagged on line by their fans for using the situation to try gain Labour votes...Sorry snakes he's lower than one of you are.
You managed to turn the demise of a football team, into a political attack. Even for you that's pretty impressive.
Quote from: BigbadBillyMcKinley on August 28, 2019, 11:10:55 AM
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on August 28, 2019, 09:24:16 AM
You gotta laugh at the snake Jeremy Corbyn,being slagged on line by their fans for using the situation to try gain Labour votes...Sorry snakes he's lower than one of you are.
You managed to turn the demise of a football team, into a political attack. Even for you that's pretty impressive.
To be fair, its exactly what Labour have been doing with it... one political commentator suggested clubs like Bury should be nationalised :005:
Anyway, to keep politics out of it - its all very sad and could be compounded with Bolton in a fortnight. I used to go to school with Phil Gartside's nephew and I ioamgien thrir family will be taking this especially hard.
Quote from: BigbadBillyMcKinley on August 23, 2019, 09:02:27 AM
Their argument would be "when is it classed as financial difficulties and not just able to buy some players?"
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Quote from: Andy S on August 28, 2019, 10:05:20 AM
Its sad for all the people of Bury. Yes some people can find something else to do on a Saturday but it is what having a football club brings to an Area. Even publicity. Well they have got that in spade loads for the last time. The football league are toothless. they should be helping to save clubs and not forcing their hand and helping to kill them off
sad for the staff and fans and players but why should anyone step in to bail out an inept business and owner who probably thought he could asset strip and away, look at Woolworths for example, national treasure but failed to move with the times , should someone have crowd funded to save the chain?
Quote from: junior white on August 28, 2019, 07:50:51 AM
Quote from: deadcowboys on August 28, 2019, 07:48:34 AM
I'm probably in a minority of 1 but I don't see a problem with the demise of clubs. It may be sad at the time but life goes on & people will find other ways to spend their Saturdays.
AFC Wimbledon have shown the way ahead for a club with too few paying spectators to end up with a more democratically owned/run club. If Bury fans care enough, that is what they should now be looking to do. This is only a disaster if those Bury fans now do nothing.
Shocking, how would you feel if that was FUlham? It could have been before Jimmy Hill stepped in and then Al Fayed.
No not shocking Junior its just a fact of life.
Yes, i would be sad, disappointed even & angry at those that mismanaged the club to allow it to happen. But its just a football club & life goes on & other things do come along. It's not the death of the wife or kids so life goes on.
As i said Wimbledon are probably the way forward for more supporter involvement in the running of clubs.
I still miss Woolworths but their closure doesnt stop me going shopping.
But then again, it is not your Football Club going to the wall.
Quote from: Peabody on August 28, 2019, 02:17:30 PM
But then again, it is not your Football Club going to the wall.
Exactly
Only for those who still care ...
In 2001 Bury Football Club, under administration, were saved by thousands of donations from supporters and others, worldwide. The crisis had been the result of borrowing £1m, a loan secured against Gigg Lane, at 15% annual interest, described, at the time, as money borrowed from a lender of true last resort, of which today's counterparts are much, much worse. Escaping from this crisis, the Club's directors promised they would never again gamble with Bury's future.
By May 2013 when Bury were owned by Brian Fenton a local Bury supporter, they had an income of £2.7m but recorded a loss of over £700k. Fenton could not bankroll the Club any further and so another financial crisis had developed.
Stewart Day took over the reins of the Club in the summer of 2014 and promised good things but it was the means that he used to finance this which almost certainly resulted in the eventual death of the football club by doing something the directors had promised would never happen again.
Public documents demonstrate that Day financed Bury's future with a loan of £1m, secured against Gigg Lane, at 10% interest per month, or 138% per year cumulative, and within one year Bury's debt would therefore be £2.38m. But, as if that was not bad enough, worse was to follow. Day had previously taken out two loans from the same company at the same interest rates, adding up to a further £650k, which also became Bury FC's debts because they were also secured against Gigg Lane when combined with the new £1m loan.
Now all of this is readily accessible public domain material, publicised at the time, and went on under the eyes of any and all interested parties and the EFL. And that begs questions.
Why on earth didn't the interested parties (shareholders etc) make a fuss? Why on earth didn't the EFL open their bloody eyes and at least investigate as they claim is their role and responsibility (one of the best football organisations in the world, no less) on their website?
A possible and plausible answer is the EFL can seemingly only go after the football club to punish it, kill it, or let it die because the owners appear to be out of the reach of anyone unless and until they commit a crime. That may also be why FFP is just so much not fit for purpose.
Sadly the story of Bury is likely to be replicated again and again unless football gets its financial act in much better order by regulatory change which is independently overseen and properly administered.
You may wish to note that there is a petition in current circulation to have Mr Day investigated for fraud which I'll say no more about.
Before the mods get concerned about libel I will post the link to that article, toshes mate
https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2014/nov/12/bury-high-interest-loans-shadow-recovery
Amazing how that article was written 5 years ago!
Quote from: deadcowboys on August 28, 2019, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: junior white on August 28, 2019, 07:50:51 AM
Quote from: deadcowboys on August 28, 2019, 07:48:34 AM
I'm probably in a minority of 1 but I don't see a problem with the demise of clubs. It may be sad at the time but life goes on & people will find other ways to spend their Saturdays.
AFC Wimbledon have shown the way ahead for a club with too few paying spectators to end up with a more democratically owned/run club. If Bury fans care enough, that is what they should now be looking to do. This is only a disaster if those Bury fans now do nothing.
Shocking, how would you feel if that was FUlham? It could have been before Jimmy Hill stepped in and then Al Fayed.
No not shocking Junior its just a fact of life.
Yes, i would be sad, disappointed even & angry at those that mismanaged the club to allow it to happen. But its just a football club & life goes on & other things do come along. It's not the death of the wife or kids so life goes on.
As i said Wimbledon are probably the way forward for more supporter involvement in the running of clubs.
I still miss Woolworths but their closure doesnt stop me going shopping.
For me it is shocking that you d=find the demise acceptable. Do you know how close we came and that wasn't all thru mismanagement.
I think most fans who watch and enjoy football that support any club would find your comments shocking
Story tonight in the media, some like minded individuals prepared to serve an injunction on the EFL.
GREAT, that might encourage them to get their fingers out and do something constructive to prevent this happening again. Up to and including putting together a task force to go into clubs and examine the books and procedures, pretty much like the vat men.
The hypocrisy of Sky Sports feigning concern for Bury outside their ground,when really a lot of the problems for Bury and others is Sky's relentless concern for only certain clubs at the top of the pyramid.
The EFL's executive chair Debbie Jevans, in a recorded interview on the BBC's website, has said she was devastated by the need to expel Bury FC on her watch. The interview reveals the extent to which the EFL has its hands tied by current regulation.
Refreshingly, she does not simply look to the Premier League to assist in bailing out the lower echelons but instead urges the clubs she is responsible for to change the regulations to effectively prevent situations similar to Bury by having rules that curtail expenditure exceeding income, especially with, for example, player wages. Jevans urged a move towards banning people who may be too great a risk (based on business profiles) if allowed to own a football club within the EFL, and promised to look at this with the clubs. It is clear the EFL will look to change regulations as appropriate to gain greater control of football expenditure but stressed that the clubs (aka owners) would have to want and agree with proposed changes. Ms Jevans clearly wants all parties on board and so her persuasive powers are very important.
Within the interview Ms Jevans is never defensive, aggressive or abusive towards any of those who make up the football fraternity and her measured and reasoned tones gave me a feeling of confidence that Bury FC's sad death may lead to the changes necessary to turn football around over the next several months . Hopefully everyone in football, including an eventually revamped Bury FC, will live within a much better financial climate, one which may also encourage the Premier League to change their behaviours too.
Out of the darkness comes the light.
The interview is here: https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/football/49504292
(https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/football/49504292)
Quote from: toshes mate on August 29, 2019, 11:16:01 AM
The interview reveals the extent to which the EFL has its hands tied by current regulation.
It's their rulebook so they've themselves to blame for that
Quote from: Statto on August 29, 2019, 01:37:27 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on August 29, 2019, 11:16:01 AM
The interview reveals the extent to which the EFL has its hands tied by current regulation.
It's their rulebook so they've themselves to blame for that
Superficially that may appear to be case, but it is the football club owners' votes that made the rule book in the first place and it is their votes that change those rules over time. It is persuasive powers that are needed to get them to look again at cases like Bury.
First Fulham home game witnessed was against Bury.Late 60's lost 4-2. Anyone know if Johnny Haynes was playing in that game and did he score?
Quote from: Russianrob on August 29, 2019, 04:35:12 PM
First Fulham home game witnessed was against Bury.Late 60's lost 4-2. Anyone know if Johnny Haynes was playing in that game and did he score?
8th October 1969, Jimmy Conway and Barry Lloyd and yes Johnny played.
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Thanks Bog!
Quote from: toshes mate on August 29, 2019, 02:12:19 PM
Quote from: Statto on August 29, 2019, 01:37:27 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on August 29, 2019, 11:16:01 AM
The interview reveals the extent to which the EFL has its hands tied by current regulation.
It's their rulebook so they've themselves to blame for that
Superficially that may appear to be case, but it is the football club owners' votes that made the rule book in the first place and it is their votes that change those rules over time. It is persuasive powers that are needed to get them to look again at cases like Bury.
Exactly and the owners are famously reluctant to address the need for change.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49569697
The English Football League is to discuss Bury's future with its member clubs following efforts to reinstate the Shakers in League Two next season.
Bury were expelled from the EFL on 27 August after a failed takeover bid by C&N Sporting Risk.
Bury North MP James Frith has called for the Shakers to re-enter in the fourth tier for the 2020-21 season.
Meanwhile, Greater Manchester Police has said it is investigating an allegation of fraud involving the club.
No arrests have been made and inquiries are ongoing.
In a statement, the EFL said the "only current established procedure" for entry to League Two is promotion through the National League.
However, it added that "in acknowledgement of the extreme nature of the problems" at Bury, the EFL board had "agreed it is appropriate to discuss the matter with member clubs" and those talks will take place in the coming weeks.
The statement concluded: "Prior to formal consideration by any league competition of an eventual application from Bury FC to return to league football, clear evidence would be required of the club's financial viability and its ability to fulfil its ongoing commitments."
At present, application for re-entry into the English league system must be submitted to the Football Association, which would then determine which division the club will play in.
Mr Frith is planning to put forward a proposal to the EFL, supported by Mayor of Manchester Andy Burnham, by 20 September.
Bury's expulsion from League One means that three clubs, rather than four, will be relegated from the third tier this season and just one, instead of two, will go down from League Two.
In response to the combined efforts of supporters' groups, local authorities and politicians, the EFL clarified there is "no precedent for a club to enter the EFL directly through an application for admission or readmission following withdrawal of membership".
Yes it is sad that old clubs like Bury and Bolton are about to drop out of the league but unless changes are made there will be others likely to follow them. Perhaps league 1&2 clubs need to become semi professional or receive significant subsidies from the super rich top 6 in the Premier league.
The dominance of the Premier League has had an effect to the whole of football, the authorities need to recognise this and react to it.
In all honesty, would the demise of Bury be that big a deal? They may have won the FA Cup a million years ago and people go on on about their long rich history but generally they're just a little tin pot club in the north west that hardly anyone supports as shown by a handful of supporters who demonstrated at the ground over the last few weeks, the likes of Utd, City, Salford City are on the doorstop so they'll be far more appealing teams to follow, have barely troubled the higher divisions of the professional game in quite some time. I appreciate people have lost their jobs but there must be plenty of Morrison's supermarkets around the Bury area 4 employment. Look, even the wealthy Neville brothers chose to invest in another club. They can just regroup in the coal miners north western flat cap Warburton bread counties league next season 😉
Quote from: Buffalo76 on September 03, 2019, 06:30:54 PM
In all honesty, would the demise of Bury be that big a deal? They may have won the FA Cup a million years ago and people go on on about their long rich history but generally they're just a little tin pot club in the north west that hardly anyone supports as shown by a handful of supporters who demonstrated at the ground over the last few weeks, the likes of Utd, City, Salford City are on the doorstop so they'll be far more appealing teams to follow, have barely troubled the higher divisions of the professional game in quite some time. I appreciate people have lost their jobs but there must be plenty of Morrison's supermarkets around the Bury area 4 employment. Look, even the wealthy Neville brothers chose to invest in another club. They can just regroup in the coal miners north western flat cap Warburton bread counties league next season 😉
You do realise the same can be and was said about Fulham ~30 years ago?
We're not a northern club with a miniscule fan base though are we 😏
Quote from: Buffalo76 on September 03, 2019, 07:08:47 PM
We're not a northern club with a miniscule fan base though are we 😏
Bury's average attendance last season (4,044) put them slightly below average for a League Two club (4,467) and would have put them 5th from bottom among League One clubs.
Last time we completed a full season in the Championship, our average attendance (19.896) was slightly below average for the Championship that year (20.489) and last season our average attendance (24.371) put us 5th from bottom in the PL.
So in terms of "fan base", Bury have as much right to be in League Two as we have to be in the Championship, and as much right to be in League One as we have to be in the PL.
Of course, either club's fortunes could evolve over a generation or so anyway.
I'm also going to stick my neck out and guess that you aren't among those of us on here who, like the Bury fans last week, volunteered to clean the ground back when the club couldn't afford cleaners.
No I wasn't, but I sent my butler with a duster instead😉
Quote from: Buffalo76 on September 03, 2019, 06:30:54 PM
In all honesty, would the demise of Bury be that big a deal? They may have won the FA Cup a million years ago and people go on on about their long rich history but generally they're just a little tin pot club in the north west that hardly anyone supports as shown by a handful of supporters who demonstrated at the ground over the last few weeks, the likes of Utd, City, Salford City are on the doorstop so they'll be far more appealing teams to follow, have barely troubled the higher divisions of the professional game in quite some time. I appreciate people have lost their jobs but there must be plenty of Morrison's supermarkets around the Bury area 4 employment. Look, even the wealthy Neville brothers chose to invest in another club. They can just regroup in the coal miners north western flat cap Warburton bread counties league next season 😉
How shameful, there but for fortune go you or I, or Fulham.
Quote from: Buffalo76 on September 03, 2019, 08:12:46 PM
No I wasn't, but I sent my butler with a duster instead😉
Not even close to witty.
Owners do what fans want. Fans say "It's Premier League or Nothing", so owners choose a high risk strategy that has a high probability of "getting into premier league" or alternatively "becoming nothing".
If fans are on the streets protesting that their club is buying players it cannot afford, then the EFL should do something; but if supporters don't complaining when spending they shouldn't complain when they are broke.
Most of these clubs that go broke, release their financial information every year and most are clearly risking going broke for several seasons in a row. Bury accounts reveal its been overspending since 2003, i'm sure fans didn't say much then but if clubs spend more than they earn year after year what else can happen except going broke.
Even Fulham's figures from June 2018 are within £4 million from borrowing against the ground or asking the Khans for more money (which they have provided more of).
Is something that happened nineteen years ago behind one of football's founding fathers demise? Forget owners and their egos and instead focus on the evidence.
Bury FC's financial failings can be traced back to when ITV-digital collapsed under pressure from BSKyB in 2001 and much that football as a whole needs to learn about the fragile nature of media money is embedded in that moment. Just as football clubs operate on the margins of financial stability so too do the media empires. One minute you have control of that media empire but there is a whole bunch of probability issues in the next minute and the one after that, and if just one percentage point of margin dictates what a company can safely do then, sooner or later, an erroneous judgement will occur. That is the problem with probability – it can never be a safe measure and so we play the game of managing risk as best we can (which, unless you are betting or insurance company, is never as good as we think it should be).
It was the losses of TV revenue that resulted in Bury falling into serious debt in 2001. Bury suffered but not sufficiently for those in charge of things in their regal palaces in Preston or elsewhere to be bothered to actually notice. Are we going to have another two decades of blind man's bluff when another media company crashes? Once a football club is on the financial ropes they are wide open to bully boy tactics from prospective and dangerous new owners who will not be stopped from abusing a club while spinning ever more intricate patterns of debt hidden from view by current regulation enforcement as it was by Bury's owners over a good few years. It took C&N's forensic examination of the books to reveal something that should never have been hidden from plain sight in the first case. Hopefully C&N's work will also help in any ongoing or future criminal investigations too.
When media corporation products begin to look shabbier, cheaper, shoddier, and less value for money we should all be asking the questions that were not asked about Bury for two whole decades. We should make it a responsibility as supporters of our game to insist we get proper value for money in everything about that game and complain to and question the EFL in whatever ways we can when it doesn't happen (the EFL cannot then say they didn't know). That is something the FSA (Football Supporters Association) could begin to build processes upon in order to get the EFL to deliver a much higher standard than currently appears to be on offer. As a supporter we are each the lowest common denominator.
Is the current football business model better or worse than what went before? Statistics are unreliable and may never tell the truth and that means it is a very risky business relying upon them to prove a case one way or the other. Perhaps if we learned that lesson for once and took it on board then the Burys of this world will not be the victims of a much larger ignorance.
