Sublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
marco is always gonna play one of his signings over someone elses. to reinforce his acumen with the owners dosh.
Quote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
An argument I previously held in this regard was Pereria's press game was brilliant and much required for the way we play. I wouldn't say he's excelled at that this season so it might well be worth a change. I actually keep seeing more press from Iwobi every time I watch him.
Cairney is such a wonderfully creative player. We will miss him greatly when he's gone.
Quote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Because everytime tom starts he is crap or gets injured. He is great at coming on with 10/15 minutes left, thats it. he has proven that time and time again.
Quote from: TC's Sporran on October 03, 2023, 06:29:59 AMmarco is always gonna play one of his signings over someone elses. to reinforce his acumen with the owners dosh.
What on earth 😂
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 01:17:32 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Because everytime tom starts he is crap or gets injured. He is great at coming on with 10/15 minutes left, thats it. he has proven that time and time again.
Sure, you are o course correct that it is everytime... if we disregard the times when he isn't crap or gets injured.
Quote from: Sting of the North on October 03, 2023, 01:29:56 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 01:17:32 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Because everytime tom starts he is crap or gets injured. He is great at coming on with 10/15 minutes left, thats it. he has proven that time and time again.
Sure, you are o course correct that it is everytime... if we disregard the times when he isn't crap or gets injured.
Thanks Sting for responding cos I couldn't even deal with his utterly clueless response
Cairney ,,give it up my left foot enough..
Quote from: TC's Sporran on October 03, 2023, 06:29:59 AMmarco is always gonna play one of his signings over someone elses. to reinforce his acumen with the owners dosh.
Well, I believe the best way for Marco Silva to ensure his own value is to win football matches. Thus, it would be utterly mad to play a weaker team just to play "his own" signings. More likely is that he believes playing Pereira over TC (for example) is that he believes it gives us a better chance to win. There would after all have been a reason that he wanted to buy said player in the first place.
Quote from: Sting of the North on October 03, 2023, 01:29:56 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 01:17:32 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Because everytime tom starts he is crap or gets injured. He is great at coming on with 10/15 minutes left, thats it. he has proven that time and time again.
Sure, you are o course correct that it is everytime... if we disregard the times when he isn't crap or gets injured.
Which other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
Quote from: Sting of the North on October 03, 2023, 01:49:58 PMQuote from: TC's Sporran on October 03, 2023, 06:29:59 AMmarco is always gonna play one of his signings over someone elses. to reinforce his acumen with the owners dosh.
Well, I believe the best way for Marco Silva to ensure his own value is to win football matches. Thus, it would be utterly mad to play a weaker team just to play "his own" signings. More likely is that he believes playing Pereira over TC (for example) is that he believes it gives us a better chance to win. There would after all have been a reason that he wanted to buy said player in the first place.
i cant believe people are naive enough to think that managers play existing players ahead of their signings. this makes their nous in the transfer market look suspect. it happens everywhere. always has done.
imagine if marco had to convince khan that pereira was worthy of splashing 10 million. hes not gonna then bench him if tc upstages him? it'll make marco look daft and not to be trusted in the transfer market. playing pereira (or any other signin ensures he doesnt gets upstaged and allows him to improve and gel with the side.
TC was a victim of this same thing when he got injured at Hull under Steve Bruce. His replacements - two lesser players Meyler and Quinn stood in for him whilst injured and once back to fitness they kept their places. They were more like pereira less quality and more the battling type.
TC had to move on to Blackburn where largely played out of position on the wing he got player of the season.
pereira is a signing to largely replace tc. cost 10 million. one game he took him off at half time and tc came on and got MOM. yet next game tc was on the bench and came on with 20 mins to go. i think tc once replaced him with only 20 odd minutes to go and still got man of the match?
either way, its human nature. anything new is better. imagine what an owner thinks if his manager signs players to improve the squad only for them to sit on the bench.
and that is the bottom line. ive seen it with other managers at other clubs so many times. where the fans have gone mental with the manager who insists on playing his new signing(s) over and over again despite poor performances and previous fans favourites warming the bench.
RLC started games here despite sometimes woeful performances? i dont think many fans here would have picked him to start.
if the new signing is woeful then the manager has to bite the bullet and admit to the owner he got it wrong. getting it wrong too often destroys owners faith in managers ability to sign the players they want.
and sometimes managers want to sign players more than they want to win matches. often throwing players to the lions (playing out of position or whilst carrying a niggle) to highlight the need to bolster the squad. warnock was a past master at this with his carefully worded comments in post match interviews.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMQuote from: Sting of the North on October 03, 2023, 01:29:56 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 01:17:32 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Because everytime tom starts he is crap or gets injured. He is great at coming on with 10/15 minutes left, thats it. he has proven that time and time again.
Sure, you are o course correct that it is everytime... if we disregard the times when he isn't crap or gets injured.
Which other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
seriously? you cant like him much. man city last season many claimed on here he was the best player on the pitch. he keeps possession, rarely loses the ball or gives it away. i saw pereira give the ball away 3 times in a 2 minute spell in game last season. more than tc does in 90 minutes. (not that he plays 90 mins often) and what about the times when tc comes on with half an hour to go and gets man of the match?
everyone has different opinions. especially with tc. his lack of tackling and willingness to get stuck in is obviously a massive detriment to his game but in these days of almost non contact football if played the number 10 its not too big a loss.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMQuote from: Sting of the North on October 03, 2023, 01:29:56 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 01:17:32 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Because everytime tom starts he is crap or gets injured. He is great at coming on with 10/15 minutes left, thats it. he has proven that time and time again.
Sure, you are o course correct that it is everytime... if we disregard the times when he isn't crap or gets injured.
Which other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
Your question may have been relevant if I had stated that TC should play in place of Pereira based on data. But I didn't. I didn't even state that he should play. I merely suggested that TC hasn't been crap or gotten injured in every start he has made. Examples can be Man Utd last year, Crystal Palace last year which were two games in which he was excellent, in my opinion. He also did good in the cup last year. But he started very few games, so not sure how you reached your balanced opinion.
I haven't checked the stats, but is Pereira's passing percentage, passes per 90 minutes and turnovers actually better than TC's? That would surprise me, but my eyes may of course be deceiving me, it happens all the time. I also guess that stats are not good at tracking whether a player makes himself available for passes from the defenders, and also the ability to actually receive the ball securely. That is a very serious shortcoming from all three of our regular midfield starters, which limits us a lot. In my opinion, based on my eyes. Stats may say otherwise, and would be happy to see it.
If you wish to continue this discussion it would be appreciated from my side if you at least tried to discuss in good faith.
Thank you and good evening.
Quote from: TC's Sporran on October 03, 2023, 03:21:03 PMQuote from: Sting of the North on October 03, 2023, 01:49:58 PMQuote from: TC's Sporran on October 03, 2023, 06:29:59 AMmarco is always gonna play one of his signings over someone elses. to reinforce his acumen with the owners dosh.
Well, I believe the best way for Marco Silva to ensure his own value is to win football matches. Thus, it would be utterly mad to play a weaker team just to play "his own" signings. More likely is that he believes playing Pereira over TC (for example) is that he believes it gives us a better chance to win. There would after all have been a reason that he wanted to buy said player in the first place.
i cant believe people are naive enough to think that managers play existing players ahead of their signings. this makes their nous in the transfer market look suspect. it happens everywhere. always has done.
imagine if marco had to convince khan that pereira was worthy of splashing 10 million. hes not gonna then bench him if tc upstages him? it'll make marco look daft and not to be trusted in the transfer market. playing pereira (or any other signin ensures he doesnt gets upstaged and allows him to improve and gel with the side.
TC was a victim of this same thing when he got injured at Hull under Steve Bruce. His replacements - two lesser players Meyler and Quinn stood in for him whilst injured and once back to fitness they kept their places. They were more like pereira less quality and more the battling type.
TC had to move on to Blackburn where largely played out of position on the wing he got player of the season.
pereira is a signing to largely replace tc. cost 10 million. one game he took him off at half time and tc came on and got MOM. yet next game tc was on the bench and came on with 20 mins to go. i think tc once replaced him with only 20 odd minutes to go and still got man of the match?
either way, its human nature. anything new is better. imagine what an owner thinks if his manager signs players to improve the squad only for them to sit on the bench.
and that is the bottom line. ive seen it with other managers at other clubs so many times. where the fans have gone mental with the manager who insists on playing his new signing(s) over and over again despite poor performances and previous fans favourites warming the bench.
RLC started games here despite sometimes woeful performances? i dont think many fans here would have picked him to start.
if the new signing is woeful then the manager has to bite the bullet and admit to the owner he got it wrong. getting it wrong too often destroys owners faith in managers ability to sign the players they want.
and sometimes managers want to sign players more than they want to win matches. often throwing players to the lions (playing out of position or whilst carrying a niggle) to highlight the need to bolster the squad. warnock was a past master at this with his carefully worded comments in post match interviews.
Or, the managers prefer other players because they want to win games. Also entirely possible.
If you lose games all te time you won't get to buy new players because you will be out of a job.
Quote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Was typical Tom Cairney the "Glenn Hoddle" of Fulham. A long time servant of this club is the playmaker we need but is sometimes overlooked to the likes of headless DeCordova-Reid. Lukic is also not good enough for the first team and should have scored.
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 03, 2023, 09:09:45 AMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
An argument I previously held in this regard was Pereria's press game was brilliant and much required for the way we play. I wouldn't say he's excelled at that this season so it might well be worth a change. I actually keep seeing more press from Iwobi every time I watch him.
Yeah it's this.
AP started last season excellently in pressing. His urgency and commitment to pressing was superb..
Plus his dead ball delivery is wonderful.
But yeah, he's definitely not hit the same heights and doesn't have the same ability/intelligence that TC does to make the best decisions in possession.
Quote from: ex-Pat on October 03, 2023, 01:49:14 PMCairney ,,give it up my left foot enough..
Ex Prat
Another consistent Cairney hater..
Quote from: Nick Bateman on October 03, 2023, 03:56:48 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Was typical Tom Cairney the "Glenn Hoddle" of Fulham. A long time servant of this club is the playmaker we need but is sometimes overlooked to the likes of headless DeCordova-Reid. Lukic is also not good enough for the first team and should have scored.
BDR's been brilliant versatile and done such a job in so many positions our current Odoi in many ways so can't knock him cos he gives a 100% always
Perreira on the other hand at 40 minutes last night I had to double check the team sheet to see if he was playing !!! I'm not joking
When TC came on the pitch we were a different team, yeah he's older, yeah he's more vulnerable to getting injured, yeah he's left footed but yeah he has more quality ten fold
Now waiting on Bongo to harp in with his 2 cents worth on how crap Cairney is
Quote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:38:01 PMQuote from: Nick Bateman on October 03, 2023, 03:56:48 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Was typical Tom Cairney the "Glenn Hoddle" of Fulham. A long time servant of this club is the playmaker we need but is sometimes overlooked to the likes of headless DeCordova-Reid. Lukic is also not good enough for the first team and should have scored.
BDR's been brilliant versatile and done such a job in so many positions our current Odoi in many ways so can't knock him cos he gives a 100% always
Perreira on the other hand at 40 minutes last night I had to double check the team sheet to see if he was playing !!! I'm not joking
When TC came on the pitch we were a different team, yeah he's older, yeah he's more vulnerable to getting injured, yeah he's left footed but yeah he has more quality ten fold
More quality ten fold ? come on... even the most loyal cairney fans would struggle to write that sentence without smirking
Carney does seem a bit of marmite player, I think I would sooner go on Marco's opinion I don't think it has anything to do with Perreira being Marco's signing, maybe Perreira hasn't quite recovered from his injury, I do think that Carney has struggled in the the premiership in the two previous promotions,
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 05:47:25 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:38:01 PMQuote from: Nick Bateman on October 03, 2023, 03:56:48 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Was typical Tom Cairney the "Glenn Hoddle" of Fulham. A long time servant of this club is the playmaker we need but is sometimes overlooked to the likes of headless DeCordova-Reid. Lukic is also not good enough for the first team and should have scored.
BDR's been brilliant versatile and done such a job in so many positions our current Odoi in many ways so can't knock him cos he gives a 100% always
Perreira on the other hand at 40 minutes last night I had to double check the team sheet to see if he was playing !!! I'm not joking
When TC came on the pitch we were a different team, yeah he's older, yeah he's more vulnerable to getting injured, yeah he's left footed but yeah he has more quality ten fold
More quality ten fold ? come on... even the most loyal cairney fans would struggle to write that sentence without smirking
I smirk every time I read one of your posts, literally p myself
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 05:47:25 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:38:01 PMQuote from: Nick Bateman on October 03, 2023, 03:56:48 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Was typical Tom Cairney the "Glenn Hoddle" of Fulham. A long time servant of this club is the playmaker we need but is sometimes overlooked to the likes of headless DeCordova-Reid. Lukic is also not good enough for the first team and should have scored.
BDR's been brilliant versatile and done such a job in so many positions our current Odoi in many ways so can't knock him cos he gives a 100% always
Perreira on the other hand at 40 minutes last night I had to double check the team sheet to see if he was playing !!! I'm not joking
When TC came on the pitch we were a different team, yeah he's older, yeah he's more vulnerable to getting injured, yeah he's left footed but yeah he has more quality ten fold
More quality ten fold ? come on... even the most loyal cairney fans would struggle to write that sentence without smirking
In terms of footballing quality I tend to agree. Ok, obviously not literally tenfold but so obviously more skilled, talented and effective.
How c
Quote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:39:36 PMNow waiting on Bongo to harp in with his 2 cents worth on how crap Cairney is
[/quote
How could I destroy the illusions of your manaffair with Thomas Piri?
You know its just time before he's finished
One pass doesn't make a season. Silva knows why he doesn't pick TC.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Quote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
And from those very simple stats it is easy to see that you were completely wrong, even when you are moving the goalposts once again. Clearly no use trying to have a serious discussion with you.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMQuote from: Sting of the North on October 03, 2023, 01:29:56 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 01:17:32 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Because everytime tom starts he is crap or gets injured. He is great at coming on with 10/15 minutes left, thats it. he has proven that time and time again.
Sure, you are o course correct that it is everytime... if we disregard the times when he isn't crap or gets injured.
Which other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
Which stats are you using for this? because opta stats suggest Cairney is better than Andreas at an awful lot based on last season's premier league games?
PER 90 Stats - https://ibb.co/F5ScTWv
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Cairney Makes 15.7 successful forward passes per 90 to Andreas's 9...
Quote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Except that per 90, last season, Cairney made 15.7 successful forward passes, Andreas Made 9.
Quote from: Chutney on October 04, 2023, 11:38:47 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Except that per 90, last season, Cairney made 15.7 successful forward passes, Andreas Made 9.
Yes as Chutney has pointed out.. Andreas played about 2.5 x more mins than Cairney. If you're doing a straight shot comparison then AP will get bigger numbers almost all the time.
But that's like picking a fight with a 6 yo. I'd expect you to win as you (presumably) weigh significantly more.
Look at the breakdown of those events broken down per 90 mins played, and the picture shifts.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMhow many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
This is just wrong though, they are the Premier League's numbers for total passes from
all seasons in the prem, going back to Tom's prem debut 13 years ago. Which doesn't seem helpful at this point.
I've already given you the progressive distance figure. If Tom is passing back more often than AP, he's more than making up for it by;
a) not giving it away as much, and
b) when he is playing forwards, making passes that progress the team
further forward than Andreas
Forget for a moment about player stats, and I favour neither one over the other in this case. what really amuses me here is the idea that Silva might favour one over the other simply because he had involvement in that players recruitment.
so the theory goes that Silva would deliberately risk losing a game and his reputation in order to convince his boss that he's sticking by his original choice/recruit. And he will stubbornly stick with that approach, even if it means he might give himself a name as a losing coach that might also lead his club into a relegation battle at the end of the season?
sorry now guys, but thats a conspiracy too far for me. you might as well just say that Silva has no real interest in Fulham, or that he had advised Mitro to take the Saudi money and run.
whatever you do guys - dont consider the simple possibility that Silva might favour some players over others for particular games because he see they have particular attributes. Thats a managers job, to manage and WIN games.
Stars aside
I find it strange that certain sectors of our support have it in for Tom so heavily,
Personally I've always enjoyed watching us more when Toms on the pitch, it's as simple as that,
Either way that pass to Lukic was top top draw, I've seen nothing like that out of Perreira this season or previous
Stats or no stats
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 04, 2023, 01:38:06 PMForget for a moment about player stats, and I favour neither one over the other in this case. what really amuses me here is the idea that Silva might favour one over the other simply because he had involvement in that players recruitment.
so the theory goes that Silva would deliberately risk losing a game and his reputation in order to convince his boss that he's sticking by his original choice/recruit. And he will stubbornly stick with that approach, even if it means he might give himself a name as a losing coach that might also lead his club into a relegation battle at the end of the season?
sorry now guys, but thats a conspiracy too far for me. you might as well just say that Silva has no real interest in Fulham, or that he had advised Mitro to take the Saudi money and run.
whatever you do guys - dont consider the simple possibility that Silva might favour some players over others for particular games because he see they have particular attributes. Thats a managers job, to manage and WIN games.
So explain Scott Parker dropping Mitrovic then for Cav. I know he didn't sign him but he just favored him which was clearly wrong,
Ranieri too was making strange decisions, barely played Tom either in favor of players far less effective
I agree it was a top drawer pass and should be recognised so by all Fulham supporters!
Quote from: perry geyton on October 04, 2023, 01:53:27 PMQuote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 04, 2023, 01:38:06 PMForget for a moment about player stats, and I favour neither one over the other in this case. what really amuses me here is the idea that Silva might favour one over the other simply because he had involvement in that players recruitment.
so the theory goes that Silva would deliberately risk losing a game and his reputation in order to convince his boss that he's
sticking by his original choice/recruit. And he will stubbornly stick with that approach, even if it means he might give himself a name as a losing coach that might also lead his club into a relegation battle at the end of the season?
sorry now guys, but thats a conspiracy too far for me. you might as well just say that Silva has no real interest in Fulham, or that he had advised Mitro to take the Saudi money and run.
whatever you do guys - dont consider the simple possibility that Silva might favour some players over others for particular games because he see they have particular attributes. Thats a managers job, to manage and WIN games.
So explain Scott Parker dropping Mitrovic then for Cav. I know he didn't sign him but he just favored him which was clearly wrong,
Ranieri too was making strange decisions, barely played Tom either in favour of players far less effective
Sorry now Perry, but the last person youll find me defending is Scott Parker. I was specifically talking about Marco Silva.
If you are trying to argue that Silva compares to Parker, well then we are into a whole debate of another kind.
incidentally, I agree with most of your arguments about TC, its the bit about the notion that Silva would risk throwing games, that I have a problem with.
Yeah I agree with Cobh.
Marco is picking the team he thinks is gonna give him the best chance of a result. He's not going with players purely because he's been involved with the recruitment or Muniz would be starting more often.
FWIW, I think there are loads of reasonable arguments why Marco would want to start Pereira ahead of TC. But recruitment and stats are not part of it.
TC still has a lot to offer and gives us a dimension that currently, no other players in the squad can offer.
Quote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 12:39:10 PMQuote from: Chutney on October 04, 2023, 11:38:47 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Except that per 90, last season, Cairney made 15.7 successful forward passes, Andreas Made 9.
Yes as Chutney has pointed out.. Andreas played about 2.5 x more mins than Cairney. If you're doing a straight shot comparison then AP will get bigger numbers almost all the time.
But that's like picking a fight with a 6 yo. I'd expect you to win as you (presumably) weigh significantly more.
Look at the breakdown of those events broken down per 90 mins played, and the picture shifts.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMhow many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
This is just wrong though, they are the Premier League's numbers for total passes from all seasons in the prem, going back to Tom's prem debut 13 years ago. Which doesn't seem helpful at this point.
I've already given you the progressive distance figure. If Tom is passing back more often than AP, he's more than making up for it by;
a) not giving it away as much, and
b) when he is playing forwards, making passes that progress the team further forward than Andreas
It their overall premier league stats which is fair. If you are really sitting there saying he should start over AP when he has
TWO assists in 90 appearances in the premier league then i don't know what to say
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:15:18 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 12:39:10 PMQuote from: Chutney on October 04, 2023, 11:38:47 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Except that per 90, last season, Cairney made 15.7 successful forward passes, Andreas Made 9.
Yes as Chutney has pointed out.. Andreas played about 2.5 x more mins than Cairney. If you're doing a straight shot comparison then AP will get bigger numbers almost all the time.
But that's like picking a fight with a 6 yo. I'd expect you to win as you (presumably) weigh significantly more.
Look at the breakdown of those events broken down per 90 mins played, and the picture shifts.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMhow many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
This is just wrong though, they are the Premier League's numbers for total passes from all seasons in the prem, going back to Tom's prem debut 13 years ago. Which doesn't seem helpful at this point.
I've already given you the progressive distance figure. If Tom is passing back more often than AP, he's more than making up for it by;
a) not giving it away as much, and
b) when he is playing forwards, making passes that progress the team further forward than Andreas
It their overall premier league stats which is fair. If you are really sitting there saying he should start over AP when he has TWO assists in 90 appearances in the premier league then i don't know what to say
To be honest with you, I didn't really say that. And if I did, I wouldn't be justifying it based on no. of assists as you rightly say.
But just in case, I'll remind you what you said.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMWhich other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
Think we've proven that statement is bollocks now so I'll leave it at that.
Quote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 02:45:52 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:15:18 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 12:39:10 PMQuote from: Chutney on October 04, 2023, 11:38:47 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Except that per 90, last season, Cairney made 15.7 successful forward passes, Andreas Made 9.
Yes as Chutney has pointed out.. Andreas played about 2.5 x more mins than Cairney. If you're doing a straight shot comparison then AP will get bigger numbers almost all the time.
But that's like picking a fight with a 6 yo. I'd expect you to win as you (presumably) weigh significantly more.
Look at the breakdown of those events broken down per 90 mins played, and the picture shifts.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMhow many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
This is just wrong though, they are the Premier League's numbers for total passes from all seasons in the prem, going back to Tom's prem debut 13 years ago. Which doesn't seem helpful at this point.
I've already given you the progressive distance figure. If Tom is passing back more often than AP, he's more than making up for it by;
a) not giving it away as much, and
b) when he is playing forwards, making passes that progress the team further forward than Andreas
It their overall premier league stats which is fair. If you are really sitting there saying he should start over AP when he has TWO assists in 90 appearances in the premier league then i don't know what to say
To be honest with you, I didn't really say that. And if I did, I wouldn't be justifying it based on no. of assists as you rightly say.
But just in case, I'll remind you what you said.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMWhich other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
Think we've proven that statement is bollocks now so I'll leave it at that.
Ok bud, if you and your passing stats help you sleep at night then thats fine by me.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:53:04 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 02:45:52 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:15:18 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 12:39:10 PMQuote from: Chutney on October 04, 2023, 11:38:47 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Except that per 90, last season, Cairney made 15.7 successful forward passes, Andreas Made 9.
Yes as Chutney has pointed out.. Andreas played about 2.5 x more mins than Cairney. If you're doing a straight shot comparison then AP will get bigger numbers almost all the time.
But that's like picking a fight with a 6 yo. I'd expect you to win as you (presumably) weigh significantly more.
Look at the breakdown of those events broken down per 90 mins played, and the picture shifts.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMhow many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
This is just wrong though, they are the Premier League's numbers for total passes from all seasons in the prem, going back to Tom's prem debut 13 years ago. Which doesn't seem helpful at this point.
I've already given you the progressive distance figure. If Tom is passing back more often than AP, he's more than making up for it by;
a) not giving it away as much, and
b) when he is playing forwards, making passes that progress the team further forward than Andreas
It their overall premier league stats which is fair. If you are really sitting there saying he should start over AP when he has TWO assists in 90 appearances in the premier league then i don't know what to say
To be honest with you, I didn't really say that. And if I did, I wouldn't be justifying it based on no. of assists as you rightly say.
But just in case, I'll remind you what you said.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMWhich other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
Think we've proven that statement is bollocks now so I'll leave it at that.
Ok bud, if you and your passing stats help you sleep at night then thats fine by me.
You brought stats up to begin with? With a claim, that has since been proven to be completely false. When using facts in your argument it is important to ensure they are correct to avoid looking a bit silly.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:53:04 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 02:45:52 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:15:18 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 12:39:10 PMQuote from: Chutney on October 04, 2023, 11:38:47 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Except that per 90, last season, Cairney made 15.7 successful forward passes, Andreas Made 9.
Yes as Chutney has pointed out.. Andreas played about 2.5 x more mins than Cairney. If you're doing a straight shot comparison then AP will get bigger numbers almost all the time.
But that's like picking a fight with a 6 yo. I'd expect you to win as you (presumably) weigh significantly more.
Look at the breakdown of those events broken down per 90 mins played, and the picture shifts.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMhow many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
This is just wrong though, they are the Premier League's numbers for total passes from all seasons in the prem, going back to Tom's prem debut 13 years ago. Which doesn't seem helpful at this point.
I've already given you the progressive distance figure. If Tom is passing back more often than AP, he's more than making up for it by;
a) not giving it away as much, and
b) when he is playing forwards, making passes that progress the team further forward than Andreas
It their overall premier league stats which is fair. If you are really sitting there saying he should start over AP when he has TWO assists in 90 appearances in the premier league then i don't know what to say
To be honest with you, I didn't really say that. And if I did, I wouldn't be justifying it based on no. of assists as you rightly say.
But just in case, I'll remind you what you said.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMWhich other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
Think we've proven that statement is bollocks now so I'll leave it at that.
Ok bud, if you and your passing stats help you sleep at night then thats fine by me.
Or you could always hold your hand up and admit with good grace that you got it badly wrong. That would be the grown up thing to do.
TC is a much better passer than Pereira who is better at bringing the ball forward. Unfortunately in doing that he often runs into trouble and loses it. Personally I would prefer TC, but not sure he has a regular 90 minutes in him which is why he is on the bench.
Quote from: Bill2 on October 04, 2023, 04:14:01 PMTC is a much better passer than Pereira who is better at bringing the ball forward. Unfortunately in doing that he often runs into trouble and loses it. Personally I would prefer TC, but not sure he has a regular 90 minutes in him which is why he is on the bench.
So you are basically saying what Silva is thinking - both players have a lot to offer the team in different ways!
if only other supporters could get a handle on that.
My suggestion is to stop feeding the troll, gentlemen. He's not even pretending to argue in good faith.
Quote from: Twig on October 04, 2023, 02:58:44 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:53:04 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 02:45:52 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:15:18 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 12:39:10 PMQuote from: Chutney on October 04, 2023, 11:38:47 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Except that per 90, last season, Cairney made 15.7 successful forward passes, Andreas Made 9.
Yes as Chutney has pointed out.. Andreas played about 2.5 x more mins than Cairney. If you're doing a straight shot comparison then AP will get bigger numbers almost all the time.
But that's like picking a fight with a 6 yo. I'd expect you to win as you (presumably) weigh significantly more.
Look at the breakdown of those events broken down per 90 mins played, and the picture shifts.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMhow many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
This is just wrong though, they are the Premier League's numbers for total passes from all seasons in the prem, going back to Tom's prem debut 13 years ago. Which doesn't seem helpful at this point.
I've already given you the progressive distance figure. If Tom is passing back more often than AP, he's more than making up for it by;
a) not giving it away as much, and
b) when he is playing forwards, making passes that progress the team further forward than Andreas
It their overall premier league stats which is fair. If you are really sitting there saying he should start over AP when he has TWO assists in 90 appearances in the premier league then i don't know what to say
To be honest with you, I didn't really say that. And if I did, I wouldn't be justifying it based on no. of assists as you rightly say.
But just in case, I'll remind you what you said.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMWhich other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
Think we've proven that statement is bollocks now so I'll leave it at that.
Ok bud, if you and your passing stats help you sleep at night then thats fine by me.
Or you could always hold your hand up and admit with good grace that you got it badly wrong. That would be the grown up thing to do.
Fair, i will admit i was wrong about the passing. you make a valid point, however it doesnt change my mind that TC of now is not the TC we had before, he is crap at this level.
My take on this is that Lukic should've scored but should get credit for making an intelligent run, we need more of that as Pereira and Reed don't get in the box often enough. I remember last year when Cairney was starting he was making some good runs into the box too, Pereira should learn from that if he's going to be starting.
Quote from: Mitrovic the warrior on October 04, 2023, 05:42:51 PMMy take on this is that Lukic should've scored but should get credit for making an intelligent run, we need more of that as Pereira and Reed don't get in the box often enough. I remember last year when Cairney was starting he was making some good runs into the box too, Pereira should learn from that if he's going to be starting.
Agreed about the Lukic chance completely. He started the move somewhere around the halfway line by making an excellent diagonal pass to Willian, and then managed to make that intelligent run and get himself a sitter. Granted, the miss was extremelly poor, but he did a lot of things right when he came on (that whole action, some nice passes and good pressing).
Cairney also made some very good passes and got himself in good positions as well. And so did Iwobi. I'd like all 3 to start the next match in place of Reed, Andreas and Wilson, respectively.
On the whole Cairney/Pereira debate, I personally prefer what Andreas offers usually, but he's in a poor run of form and against Sheffield Cairney should replace him, imo.
Quote from: SerbianLad on October 04, 2023, 06:14:42 PMQuote from: Mitrovic the warrior on October 04, 2023, 05:42:51 PMMy take on this is that Lukic should've scored but should get credit for making an intelligent run, we need more of that as Pereira and Reed don't get in the box often enough. I remember last year when Cairney was starting he was making some good runs into the box too, Pereira should learn from that if he's going to be starting.
Agreed about the Lukic chance completely. He started the move somewhere around the halfway line by making an excellent diagonal pass to Willian, and then managed to make that intelligent run and get himself a sitter. Granted, the miss was extremelly poor, but he did a lot of things right when he came on (that whole action, some nice passes and good pressing).
Cairney also made some very good passes and got himself in good positions as well. And so did Iwobi. I'd like all 3 to start the next match in place of Reed, Andreas and Wilson, respectively.
On the whole Cairney/Pereira debate, I personally prefer what Andreas offers usually, but he's in a poor run of form and against Sheffield Cairney should replace him, imo.
I think the keeper should get a little credit.
I wouldn't try to better Silva's team selection but I do know that it is well worth the price of a seat in the JH stand to see Tom Cairney playing football for half an hour, he is pure class.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 05:21:13 PMQuote from: Twig on October 04, 2023, 02:58:44 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:53:04 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 02:45:52 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:15:18 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 12:39:10 PMQuote from: Chutney on October 04, 2023, 11:38:47 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Except that per 90, last season, Cairney made 15.7 successful forward passes, Andreas Made 9.
Yes as Chutney has pointed out.. Andreas played about 2.5 x more mins than Cairney. If you're doing a straight shot comparison then AP will get bigger numbers almost all the time.
But that's like picking a fight with a 6 yo. I'd expect you to win as you (presumably) weigh significantly more.
Look at the breakdown of those events broken down per 90 mins played, and the picture shifts.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMhow many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
This is just wrong though, they are the Premier League's numbers for total passes from all seasons in the prem, going back to Tom's prem debut 13 years ago. Which doesn't seem helpful at this point.
I've already given you the progressive distance figure. If Tom is passing back more often than AP, he's more than making up for it by;
a) not giving it away as much, and
b) when he is playing forwards, making passes that progress the team further forward than Andreas
It their overall premier league stats which is fair. If you are really sitting there saying he should start over AP when he has TWO assists in 90 appearances in the premier league then i don't know what to say
To be honest with you, I didn't really say that. And if I did, I wouldn't be justifying it based on no. of assists as you rightly say.
But just in case, I'll remind you what you said.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMWhich other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
Think we've proven that statement is bollocks now so I'll leave it at that.
Ok bud, if you and your passing stats help you sleep at night then thats fine by me.
Or you could always hold your hand up and admit with good grace that you got it badly wrong. That would be the grown up thing to do.
Fair, i will admit i was wrong about the passing. you make a valid point, however it doesnt change my mind that TC of now is not the TC we had before, he is crap at this level.
"Crap at this level"
maybe your clueless at this level
Stat boy
What a lame thing to say about one of our strongest, longest serving players, pure class
Shown yourself for what you really are, almost embarrassed for you
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 04, 2023, 02:02:31 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 04, 2023, 01:53:27 PMQuote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 04, 2023, 01:38:06 PMForget for a moment about player stats, and I favour neither one over the other in this case. what really amuses me here is the idea that Silva might favour one over the other simply because he had involvement in that players recruitment.
so the theory goes that Silva would deliberately risk losing a game and his reputation in order to convince his boss that he's
sticking by his original choice/recruit. And he will stubbornly stick with that approach, even if it means he might give himself a name as a losing coach that might also lead his club into a relegation battle at the end of the season?
sorry now guys, but thats a conspiracy too far for me. you might as well just say that Silva has no real interest in Fulham, or that he had advised Mitro to take the Saudi money and run.
whatever you do guys - dont consider the simple possibility that Silva might favour some players over others for particular games because he see they have particular attributes. Thats a managers job, to manage and WIN games.
So explain Scott Parker dropping Mitrovic then for Cav. I know he didn't sign him but he just favored him which was clearly wrong,
Ranieri too was making strange decisions, barely played Tom either in favour of players far less effective
Sorry now Perry, but the last person youll find me defending is Scott Parker. I was specifically talking about Marco Silva.
If you are trying to argue that Silva compares to Parker, well then we are into a whole debate of another kind.
incidentally, I agree with most of your arguments about TC, its the bit about the notion that Silva would risk throwing games, that I have a problem with.
No I don't think that at all, it's just that Marco tends to favor him no matter what TC does, I remember near the end of last season when Perreira was out and Cairney was getting more play time, we just looked better, was hoping it would sink in with Marco in that period but it clearly didn't,,,
I like Perreira not slagging him but he's been largely crap this season and needs some bench time IMO
Even if stat boy doesn't agree so
Quote from: Nick Bateman on October 03, 2023, 03:56:48 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:03:44 AMSublime !!!
I've been saying it for a long time, I'm not sure how Perreira "who's been largely invisible this season" starts week in week out over him ?
Was typical Tom Cairney the "Glenn Hoddle" of Fulham. A long time servant of this club is the playmaker we need but is sometimes overlooked to the likes of headless DeCordova-Reid. Lukic is also not good enough for the first team and should have scored.
Comparisons between Glenn Hoddle and Tom Cairney are ridiculous, because while both can provide a "sublime medium range pass" with their left foot and neither are super fast the comparisons stop there. Glenn Hoddle was vastly superior off the ball (in both defence and attack with his positional sense being amazing), was one of the greatest players ever on the ball (able to hold the ball and to provide "sublime very long range pass" with either foot), started his career as an attacking midfielder, finished his career as a centre-back at Swindon/Chelsea and provides many assists, key goals and significant deadball skills.
Tom Cairney has been outclassed by top premier league players, more than Glenn Hoddle was outclassed against Diego Maradona at his absolute best. May I remind you that, against Maradona, Hoddle was illegally pushed to the ground during the build up for "Goal of the Century" and the other Maradona goal was "the Hand of God". Without those two fouls, Hoddle's History would be different as England would have progressed 1-0 to the SF and maybe 1986 WC Champion.
And, now there is Bryan Robson (who was overall marginally better than Hoddle) to compete for a spot with in the current English Squad, he [Hoddle] could make the current England team in about six positions (#4, #5, #6, #7, #8 or #10) and probably playing for either Harry Maquire, Kevin Phillips or Jordan Henderson. Tom Cairney can only play one position in some formations (none in other formations), can go completely missing in games and not good enough off the ball for a weaker Scottish Team. In terms of player quality, Glenn Hoddle was much closer to Zinedine Zidane, than Tom Cairney was ever to Glenn Hoddle.
For those that haven't seen Glenn Hoddle, please look at the pure genius of this player. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ9qZCrlZ_w
Quote from: filham on October 04, 2023, 09:08:35 PMI wouldn't try to better Silva's team selection but I do know that it is well worth the price of a seat in the JH stand to see Tom Cairney playing football for half an hour, he is pure class.
Love that
Quote from: TC's Sporran on October 03, 2023, 06:29:59 AMmarco is always gonna play one of his signings over someone elses. to reinforce his acumen with the owners dosh.
Obviously, a manager will believe in a player he's signed, and wants him to do well, show the manager's good judgement. BUT, any manager wants/needs results - his job is on the line, so if Silva believes Tom is a better starter than Pereira, he will start him.
I thought Pereira was very impressive in his first games, defending as well as in attack, but has maybe gone off the boil a bit, while Tom is always impressive when he comes on, but Silva is paid the big bucks to make these, tough decisions, and his job is on the line if he is wrong.
GJ thinks Tom should start, by btw!
Since Dec 2020, Tom Cairney has only played 90 minutes in six league games (five in the championship and one in the premier league), so Cairney might start or finish a game but not both in the premier league ever again. And, I think he is better at finishing a game.
Quote from: perry geyton on October 03, 2023, 05:30:42 PMQuote from: ex-Pat on October 03, 2023, 01:49:14 PMCairney ,,give it up my left foot enough..
Ex Prat
Another consistent Cairney hater..
The guy is an absolute dick. Never heard a sensible comment from him.
I agree with those who say Cairney is a pleasure to watch play, and I have also noted that following the games where Tom was brought on off the bench, there have been much praise for him on here where he might have changed the game for us.
So my question is this, given that most of the experts writing on this board are of the view that Tom no longer has 90 mins left in him (and Im not sure if that is actually true) which half of the game should he start in to have the biggest impact for us?
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 05, 2023, 02:08:03 PMI agree with those who say Cairney is a pleasure to watch play, and I have also noted that following the games where Tom was brought on off the bench, there have been much praise for him on here where he might have changed the game for us.
So my question is this, given that most of the experts writing on this board are of the view that Tom no longer has 90 mins left in him (and Im not sure if that is actually true) which half of the game should he start in to have the biggest impact for us?
Second, when the opponents are more tired.
Quote from: Mitrovic the warrior on October 05, 2023, 02:50:13 PMQuote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 05, 2023, 02:08:03 PMI agree with those who say Cairney is a pleasure to watch play, and I have also noted that following the games where Tom was brought on off the bench, there have been much praise for him on here where he might have changed the game for us.
So my question is this, given that most of the experts writing on this board are of the view that Tom no longer has 90 mins left in him (and Im not sure if that is actually true) which half of the game should he start in to have the biggest impact for us?
Second, when the opponents are more tired.
The other half :slap:
Quote from: perry geyton on October 04, 2023, 11:15:40 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 05:21:13 PMQuote from: Twig on October 04, 2023, 02:58:44 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:53:04 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 02:45:52 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 02:15:18 PMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 12:39:10 PMQuote from: Chutney on October 04, 2023, 11:38:47 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:50:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 10:10:14 AMQuote from: simplyfulham on October 04, 2023, 10:01:51 AMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMData wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
This seems like a silly thing to say when it's patently not true.
Not really sure where you're coming from.
Ok, show me what isn't true? . you can just use this - https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison)
Pass completion? is that it? Not hard when 622 of his passes in the league have gone backwards, compared to Andreas's 378 backwards.
Ah sure.. I mean if you don't care about context.
In which case you can probably just ignore that fact that per 90 mins, TC makes twice as many passes as AP..
TC: 57 p90
AP: 23 p90
Or the fact in terms of total progressive distance towards the oppo goal, TC is almost double again..
TC: 220 yards p90
AP: 141 yards p90
Or the fact he creates more shooting chances (without even tacking set pieces)..
TC: 4.10 p90
AP: 3.94 p90
Or even that TC defensively gets better numbers according to the 'data'. For combined tackles + interceptions..
TC: 2 p90
AP: 0.8 p90
But if you want to say stuff like 'Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas..' then crack on guess?
https://fbref.com/en/squads/fd962109/2022-2023/Fulham-Stats#all_stats_standard
Fair.
how many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
Overall in the league they have
Big chances created
AP - 16 TC - 9
You said more shooting chances? but what about ..
Shots on target
AP - 41 TC - 15
Shots
AP 111 - TC - 67
Assists
AP - 10. TC - 2
Tom basically gets more successful passes because he passes back to our defense most of the time.
Except that per 90, last season, Cairney made 15.7 successful forward passes, Andreas Made 9.
Yes as Chutney has pointed out.. Andreas played about 2.5 x more mins than Cairney. If you're doing a straight shot comparison then AP will get bigger numbers almost all the time.
But that's like picking a fight with a 6 yo. I'd expect you to win as you (presumably) weigh significantly more.
Look at the breakdown of those events broken down per 90 mins played, and the picture shifts.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 04, 2023, 11:36:25 AMhow many passes in those 90 minutes are forward, which they should be playing as a CAM.
Forward - AP - 637 TC - 572
Backwards - AP - 378 TC - 622
This is just wrong though, they are the Premier League's numbers for total passes from all seasons in the prem, going back to Tom's prem debut 13 years ago. Which doesn't seem helpful at this point.
I've already given you the progressive distance figure. If Tom is passing back more often than AP, he's more than making up for it by;
a) not giving it away as much, and
b) when he is playing forwards, making passes that progress the team further forward than Andreas
It their overall premier league stats which is fair. If you are really sitting there saying he should start over AP when he has TWO assists in 90 appearances in the premier league then i don't know what to say
To be honest with you, I didn't really say that. And if I did, I wouldn't be justifying it based on no. of assists as you rightly say.
But just in case, I'll remind you what you said.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 03, 2023, 02:47:07 PMWhich other performance this season or last season would you say he deserved to start ahead of Andreas? He literally made a pass last night.
Data wise, there is not a single stat where Tom is better than Andreas, at anything at all in their premier league games.
Think we've proven that statement is bollocks now so I'll leave it at that.
Ok bud, if you and your passing stats help you sleep at night then thats fine by me.
Or you could always hold your hand up and admit with good grace that you got it badly wrong. That would be the grown up thing to do.
Fair, i will admit i was wrong about the passing. you make a valid point, however it doesnt change my mind that TC of now is not the TC we had before, he is crap at this level.
"Crap at this level"
maybe your clueless at this level
Stat boy
What a lame thing to say about one of our strongest, longest serving players, pure class
Shown yourself for what you really are, almost embarrassed for you
''you're ''..
Oh tough words. Sorry i'm not blinded by the Championship TC like you are. I guess Silva is also a statboi.
If he wasn't crap he would be starting, some reasons he doesn't start is because he has TWO ASSISTS IN OVER 90 PREM APPEARANCES, then when he does start there is a 50% chance he gets injured then add on the fact his right foot does nothing apart from keeping his balance and everything he does on his left is predictable. The fact you think that's acceptable is absolutely hilarious, if that was any other player being linked to us you would be waving your Tony Khan Out flag from your bedroom window for even being linked to someone with such poor stats.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Tom start in the first leg of the FA cup when we beat Spurs ?
Quote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 05:23:10 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong but didn't Tom start in the first leg of the FA cup when we beat Spurs ?
Don't engage, he will just refute or ignore everything that won't back up his subjective opinion. He's just a wind up merchant. The clue is in him not even trying to be neither coherent, balanced or honest.
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 05, 2023, 02:08:03 PMI agree with those who say Cairney is a pleasure to watch play, and I have also noted that following the games where Tom was brought on off the bench, there have been much praise for him on here where he might have changed the game for us.
So my question is this, given that most of the experts writing on this board are of the view that Tom no longer has 90 mins left in him (and Im not sure if that is actually true) which half of the game should he start in to have the biggest impact for us?
It's a myth he's definitely got 90 in him, along with the "his knees are shot" nonsense,
The same sheeple slagging him also wrote Tim Ream off a couple of seasons ago saying he should retire..
Quote from: Sting of the North on October 05, 2023, 05:53:00 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 05:23:10 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong but didn't Tom start in the first leg of the FA cup when we beat Spurs ?
Don't engage, he will just refute or ignore everything that won't back up his subjective opinion. He's just a wind up merchant. The clue is in him not even trying to be neither coherent, balanced or honest.
Wind up merchant? i said Tom doesn't start because he has 2 assists in 90 premier league games, so clearly i am talking about the premier league. If he wants to divert and talk about the FA cup thats on him.
I don't talk about indian food then bring a chicken chow mein into the equation.
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 04, 2023, 01:53:37 PMI agree it was a top drawer pass and should be recognised so by all Fulham supporters!
Yes it was and the end result was, nothing!! Why are you guys comparing TC with AP, in my opinion neither of them are starting 11 PL quality players, cameos maybe!
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 05, 2023, 07:10:33 PMQuote from: Sting of the North on October 05, 2023, 05:53:00 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 05:23:10 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong but didn't Tom start in the first leg of the FA cup when we beat Spurs ?
Don't engage, he will just refute or ignore everything that won't back up his subjective opinion. He's just a wind up merchant. The clue is in him not even trying to be neither coherent, balanced or honest.
Wind up merchant? i said Tom doesn't start because he has 2 assists in 90 premier league games, so clearly i am talking about the premier league. If he wants to divert and talk about the FA cup thats on him.
I don't talk about indian food then bring a chicken chow mein into the equation.
Pathetic
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 05, 2023, 07:10:33 PMQuote from: Sting of the North on October 05, 2023, 05:53:00 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 05:23:10 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong but didn't Tom start in the first leg of the FA cup when we beat Spurs ?
Don't engage, he will just refute or ignore everything that won't back up his subjective opinion. He's just a wind up merchant. The clue is in him not even trying to be neither coherent, balanced or honest.
Wind up merchant? i said Tom doesn't start because he has 2 assists in 90 premier league games, so clearly i am talking about the premier league. If he wants to divert and talk about the FA cup thats on him.
I don't talk about indian food then bring a chicken chow mein into the equation.
What an embarrassment.
Quote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 05:23:10 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong but didn't Tom start in the first leg of the FA cup when we beat Spurs ?
As far as I can recall, FA Cup ties aren't played in first/second legs. And in the league cup, only semi final is played over two legs.
Quote from: Twig on October 05, 2023, 08:46:24 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 05, 2023, 07:10:33 PMQuote from: Sting of the North on October 05, 2023, 05:53:00 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 05:23:10 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong but didn't Tom start in the first leg of the FA cup when we beat Spurs ?
Don't engage, he will just refute or ignore everything that won't back up his subjective opinion. He's just a wind up merchant. The clue is in him not even trying to be neither coherent, balanced or honest.
Wind up merchant? i said Tom doesn't start because he has 2 assists in 90 premier league games, so clearly i am talking about the premier league. If he wants to divert and talk about the FA cup thats on him.
I don't talk about indian food then bring a chicken chow mein into the equation.
What an embarrassment.
Why don't you and Perry go and tell Marco what an embarrassment he is for not playing him, i'm sure you'll be able to get close to the managers area or would you bend down and ask for an autograph instead ?
Quote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 06:12:27 PMThe same sheeple slagging him also wrote Tim Ream off a couple of seasons ago saying he should retire..
I'm not sure using Tim Ream and his current form as the best example was the wisest there Perry, but I do agree there's nothing wrong with Tom Cairney's knees!
TC is a class act, and I think last season had out a very effective way of using him, bringing him on after 60/70 minutes as the game opened up.
What disappoints me about TC is that he could be more effective, particularly when it comes to goal scoring. Three areas in particular he should be doing better.
1. Arriving late into the danger penalty area
2. Insisting (as captain) that he takes free kicks around the area - none of the usual suspects pose much of a threat atm
3. Taking shots from around the penalty box when he is in a position to do so.
With his ability, he could and should be scoring 10+ goals a season , even in the PL
Quote from: davew on October 05, 2023, 07:29:40 PMQuote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 04, 2023, 01:53:37 PMI agree it was a top drawer pass and should be recognised so by all Fulham supporters!
Yes it was and the end result was, nothing!! Why are you guys comparing TC with AP, in my opinion neither of them are starting 11 PL quality players, cameos maybe!
I'm a bit confused here. You are agreeing that Cairney's pass was top drawer, yet you ask about the end result (No Goal). So your conclusion is that neither Tom nor Andreas are starting 11 PL players, why - because there was no one there to finish Tom's Top Drawer pass? Is it Tom's fault also when Liverpool comes to play at the Cottage and Klopp complains the grass is too long for his players?
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 04, 2023, 01:38:06 PMForget for a moment about player stats, and I favour neither one over the other in this case. what really amuses me here is the idea that Silva might favour one over the other simply because he had involvement in that players recruitment.
so the theory goes that Silva would deliberately risk losing a game and his reputation in order to convince his boss that he's sticking by his original choice/recruit. And he will stubbornly stick with that approach, even if it means he might give himself a name as a losing coach that might also lead his club into a relegation battle at the end of the season?
sorry now guys, but thats a conspiracy too far for me. you might as well just say that Silva has no real interest in Fulham, or that he had advised Mitro to take the Saudi money and run.
whatever you do guys - dont consider the simple possibility that Silva might favour some players over others for particular games because he see they have particular attributes. Thats a managers job, to manage and WIN games.
you've never ever seen a manager pick one of his signings ahead of other "better" players? did you have your eyes closed when rlc was here? and what about when you get an owner who is more hands on with who gets picked. it does happen, and players are played to keep the owner on side? i have seen managers pick "their" signings ahead of existing players so many times. its human nature.
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 06, 2023, 12:28:45 PMQuote from: Twig on October 05, 2023, 08:46:24 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 05, 2023, 07:10:33 PMQuote from: Sting of the North on October 05, 2023, 05:53:00 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 05:23:10 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong but didn't Tom start in the first leg of the FA cup when we beat Spurs ?
Don't engage, he will just refute or ignore everything that won't back up his subjective opinion. He's just a wind up merchant. The clue is in him not even trying to be neither coherent, balanced or honest.
Wind up merchant? i said Tom doesn't start because he has 2 assists in 90 premier league games, so clearly i am talking about the premier league. If he wants to divert and talk about the FA cup thats on him.
I don't talk about indian food then bring a chicken chow mein into the equation.
What an embarrassment.
Why don't you and Perry go and tell Marco what an embarrassment he is for not playing him, i'm sure you'll be able to get close to the managers area or would you bend down and ask for an autograph instead ?
secondary assists dont get mentioned but take the goal against norwich. a fantastic quick thinking pass from tc yet history books show nothing?
football is more than just stats. as a fan surely you can detect when the tide turns and a team is gaining the upper hand or getting on top. yet may still be having less possession but looking more likely to score when with the ball.
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on October 06, 2023, 02:01:25 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 06:12:27 PMThe same sheeple slagging him also wrote Tim Ream off a couple of seasons ago saying he should retire..
I'm not sure using Tim Ream and his current form as the best example was the wisest there Perry, but I do agree there's nothing wrong with Tom Cairney's knees!
Couple of mistakes, he's been brilliant, don't start that one again please
Quote from: Sammyffc on October 06, 2023, 12:28:45 PMQuote from: Twig on October 05, 2023, 08:46:24 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 05, 2023, 07:10:33 PMQuote from: Sting of the North on October 05, 2023, 05:53:00 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 05:23:10 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong but didn't Tom start in the first leg of the FA cup when we beat Spurs ?
Don't engage, he will just refute or ignore everything that won't back up his subjective opinion. He's just a wind up merchant. The clue is in him not even trying to be neither coherent, balanced or honest.
Wind up merchant? i said Tom doesn't start because he has 2 assists in 90 premier league games, so clearly i am talking about the premier league. If he wants to divert and talk about the FA cup thats on him.
I don't talk about indian food then bring a chicken chow mein into the equation.
What an embarrassment.
Why don't you and Perry go and tell Marco what an embarrassment he is for not playing him, i'm sure you'll be able to get close to the managers area or would you bend down and ask for an autograph instead ?
Strange comment
I'd like to see Perreira sit this one out.
Would really like to see Raul play in his position with Vini leading the line
Perreira doesn't bring much at all, all his set plays are poor considering he was meant to be a set play specialist, doesn't score and his decision making is awful mostly IMO
Quote from: perry geyton on October 06, 2023, 06:09:17 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 06, 2023, 12:28:45 PMQuote from: Twig on October 05, 2023, 08:46:24 PMQuote from: Sammyffc on October 05, 2023, 07:10:33 PMQuote from: Sting of the North on October 05, 2023, 05:53:00 PMQuote from: perry geyton on October 05, 2023, 05:23:10 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong but didn't Tom start in the first leg of the FA cup when we beat Spurs ?
Don't engage, he will just refute or ignore everything that won't back up his subjective opinion. He's just a wind up merchant. The clue is in him not even trying to be neither coherent, balanced or honest.
Wind up merchant? i said Tom doesn't start because he has 2 assists in 90 premier league games, so clearly i am talking about the premier league. If he wants to divert and talk about the FA cup thats on him.
I don't talk about indian food then bring a chicken chow mein into the equation.
What an embarrassment.
Why don't you and Perry go and tell Marco what an embarrassment he is for not playing him, i'm sure you'll be able to get close to the managers area or would you bend down and ask for an autograph instead ?
Strange comment
not really, you are the one who gets hyper offended whenever someone says one of our long time Fulham players have got worse. Ream before, Cairney now. Nobody is surprised.
Actually Sammy your the one that's getting hyper defensive over me saying Perreira needs to sit on the bench for a bit,
I'm not the only one thinking like this by the way, just read an article about it,
Perreira's been asleep the last few games, a bit like yourself
As far as Ream goes he's been brilliant and one of our most consistent players over the past couple of seasons, our captain..
not sure why that offends you either
Quote from: Bobsffc on October 06, 2023, 02:44:11 PMTC is a class act, and I think last season had out a very effective way of using him, bringing him on after 60/70 minutes as the game opened up.
What disappoints me about TC is that he could be more effective, particularly when it comes to goal scoring. Three areas in particular he should be doing better.
1. Arriving late into the danger penalty area
2. Insisting (as captain) that he takes free kicks around the area - none of the usual suspects pose much of a threat atm
3. Taking shots from around the penalty box when he is in a position to do so.
With his ability, he could and should be scoring 10+ goals a season , even in the PL
I think there is some fair and reasonable thought gone into this. It's far, far more nuanced than the usual tedious "only left footed" or "too slow" nonsense. I do agree that he should be more assertive as skipper and take more free kicks. I also agree that he should have a few more goals in him although I think that depends a bit on precisely how Marco uses him.
I have always admired Tom Cairney's ability, and I think he still has something to offer off the bench. However, pace Twig, I do think that at the very top level, his lack of pace has always been a weaker part of his game, which has been exacerbated by age, and especially by his knee problems. I still think his strengths in terms of retaining possession, keeping the midfield ticking over, finding a telling through pass, and shooting from just outside the box outweigh his weaknesses (lack of pace and not good defensively or at harrying the opposition in possession), and I think he is a useful squad player.
Quote from: perry geyton on October 06, 2023, 10:07:46 PMActually Sammy your the one that's getting hyper defensive over me saying Perreira needs to sit on the bench for a bit,
I'm not the only one thinking like this by the way, just read an article about it,
Perreira's been asleep the last few games, a bit like yourself
As far as Ream goes he's been brilliant and one of our most consistent players over the past couple of seasons, our captain..
not sure why that offends you either
+1 ::wink::
Quote from: Plodder on October 07, 2023, 11:42:29 AMI have always admired Tom Cairney's ability, and I think he still has something to offer off the bench. However, pace Twig, I do think that at the very top level, his lack of pace has always been a weaker part of his game, which has been exacerbated by age, and especially by his knee problems. I still think his strengths in terms of retaining possession, keeping the midfield ticking over, finding a telling through pass, and shooting from just outside the box outweigh his weaknesses (lack of pace and not good defensively or at harrying the opposition in possession), and I think he is a useful squad player.
Thing is Plodder that TC has never relied on physical pace to impact the game. Because of his ability to see and play a forward pass he can move us forward far quicker and more effectively than pacier players who rush forward then stop, turn and play it backwards or knock a cross into row z. I'm not necessarily advocating him as a regular starter (although I think there are opponents he does particularly well against), but I do think he should get more minutes.
When he came on today we looked much better, more composed and we finished em off when they looked like they could get back into it
Plus a cracking right footer from Tom
Quote from: perry geyton on October 07, 2023, 05:28:58 PMWhen he came on today we looked much better, more composed and we finished em off when they looked like they could get back into it
Plus a cracking right footer from Tom
Just saw the highlights and it was a cracker from Tom. sounds like he has been reading this board and wanted to reply himself!
Without wanting to get involved in a tedious argument as to whether Cairney should be starting or not I do have one comment. In my opinion, and others are perfectly entitled to different ones, we look a better team with him on the pitch.
Quote from: Benny on October 06, 2023, 07:13:41 PMI'd like to see Perreira sit this one out.
Would really like to see Raul play in his position with Vini leading the line
Perreira doesn't bring much at all, all his set plays are poor considering he was meant to be a set play specialist, doesn't score and his decision making is awful mostly IMO
Very well said Benny.
Have said the same about Pereira for a while.
Will concede that it was his pass to BDR on on a breakaway but other than that he was very poor.
Like you I have wondered how it might work with Raul in that position and a striker ahead.
Might mean we get more bodies in the box which is something we did not do today.
