I have a vision of Fulham becoming a regular premier league top ten team, that is up there with the big boys.
However doubt is then raised regarding our ground capacity as at below 30,000,even with the new Riverside fully operational, may not generate sufficient income.
Can any other areas be enlarged, it seems not, we are hemmed in by luxury flats, Bishops Park and Stevenage Road.
Look at other top ten competitor's grounds
Man.U., Spurs, West Ham, Arsenal--- Above 60,000
Man.City, Liverpool, Newcastle,----Above 50,000
Villa, Chelsea, Everton ----------Above 40,000.
Even Brighton have a larger ground capacity than us.
No way do we want to move from the Cottage but--------------.
Could probably get into the 35000+ range with new Hammy and Putney ends that are more vertical and rise as high as the Riverside. Lack of space and the Haynes stand being untouchable will always be major limiting factors though.
Thought Brighton was 30k....I suppose they could develop the Putney end
The Cottage will always be big enough. We'll just have to sit closer together!
Seriously though, I don't think it matters too much whether we have a capacity of 30,000 or 40,000. The difference in income wouldn't be huge and it's unlikely we'd be able to fill a big stadium anyway.
Quote from: filham on March 18, 2024, 06:53:41 PMI have a vision of Fulham becoming a regular premier league top ten team, that is up there with the big boys.
However doubt is then raised regarding our ground capacity as at below 30,000,even with the new Riverside fully operational, may not generate sufficient income.
Can any other areas be enlarged, it seems not, we are hemmed in by luxury flats, Bishops Park and Stevenage Road.
Look at other top ten competitor's grounds
Man.U., Spurs, West Ham, Arsenal--- Above 60,000
Man.City, Liverpool, Newcastle,----Above 50,000
Villa, Chelsea, Everton ----------Above 40,000.
Even Brighton have a larger ground capacity than us.
No way do we want to move from the Cottage but--------------.
You forgot Forest, Wolves and Sheffield United. Regardless, we will probably get to around 35,000 which is fine
It's not just about the seat capacity rather than how much you charge for the seat.
Man city capacity is 53,000 but tickets are circa £27-30 each as it's 'tup north.
If we have a 30,000 capacity but at an average of what, £50 it's pretty similar gate receipts.
Its all pretty small beer against the TV cash in any case.
Quote from: Kimbleman on March 18, 2024, 08:20:45 PMIt's not just about the seat capacity rather than how much you charge for the seat.
Man city capacity is 53,000 but tickets are circa £27-30 each as it's 'tup north.
If we have a 30,000 capacity but at an average of what, £50 it's pretty similar gate receipts.
Its all pretty small beer against the TV cash in any case.
The real money is in hospitality seats which is why the Riverside was rebuilt and why I think it's fairly unlikely we do anything with the Hammersmith and Putney Ends anytime soon as those would be rebuilt to add a few thousand seats and very few if any hospitality seats making recouping the investment difficult.
Quote from: btffc on March 18, 2024, 08:27:32 PMQuote from: Kimbleman on March 18, 2024, 08:20:45 PMIt's not just about the seat capacity rather than how much you charge for the seat.
Man city capacity is 53,000 but tickets are circa £27-30 each as it's 'tup north.
If we have a 30,000 capacity but at an average of what, £50 it's pretty similar gate receipts.
Its all pretty small beer against the TV cash in any case.
The real money is in hospitality seats which is why the Riverside was rebuilt and why I think it's fairly unlikely we do anything with the Hammersmith and Putney Ends anytime soon as those would be rebuilt to add a few thousand seats and very few if any hospitality seats making recouping the investment difficult.
they could add more hospitality boxes for either stand which would surely add more revenue?
Quote from: WhiteJC on March 18, 2024, 08:42:29 PMQuote from: btffc on March 18, 2024, 08:27:32 PMQuote from: Kimbleman on March 18, 2024, 08:20:45 PMIt's not just about the seat capacity rather than how much you charge for the seat.
Man city capacity is 53,000 but tickets are circa £27-30 each as it's 'tup north.
If we have a 30,000 capacity but at an average of what, £50 it's pretty similar gate receipts.
Its all pretty small beer against the TV cash in any case.
The real money is in hospitality seats which is why the Riverside was rebuilt and why I think it's fairly unlikely we do anything with the Hammersmith and Putney Ends anytime soon as those would be rebuilt to add a few thousand seats and very few if any hospitality seats making recouping the investment difficult.
they could add more hospitality boxes for either stand which would surely add more revenue?
They could but just those boxes don't have many seats so they'd likely need to use a half or a whole section for hospitality which in the Hammy end surely wouldn't go over well given current relations between fans and the club. Also before they would even consider any of that they will need to see how demand is for all the new hospitality opening up in the Riverside over a decent length of time to gauge whether adding more would even sell well.
I'm hoping the Khans decide to do it as more of a vanity project/increased long term value of the club and stadium because I just don't see it making a lot of sense financially at least in a way that doesn't reduce the number of regular priced seats.
You've heard of Cottage hospitals - well it is now Cottage Hospitality ! Tourists and corporate money will be our saviour and future. " Swimming pools movie stars, that's the way it's going to be " ( for those of you of a certain age we are the Fulham Hillbillies)
Progress I suppose and maybe the only sustainable option. ( though it hurts )
You would have to rebuild the Hammersmith and Putney end. You could probably fill in the sides and join them up to the riverside stand overtime. I think you could get to 35,000 or so, which would probably give you an extra £7m or so in revenue a year.
If we establish ourselves you'll get more revenue in sponsorships- Chelsea is a prime example of this, they have 40k seater stadium.
As has been said, you could conceivably rebuild and increase the capacity of the Hammersmith and Putney ends.
The problem is the lack of space either side (unless you could buy up some of Bishop's park) means to add a significant amount of seating would mean you would have go pretty high/steep, probably even with a second tier - and I don't even know how you could do that safely with so little space for steps/exits.
Quote from: btffc on March 18, 2024, 06:59:26 PMCould probably get into the 35000+ range with new Hammy and Putney ends that are more vertical and rise as high as the Riverside. Lack of space and the Haynes stand being untouchable will always be major limiting factors though.
This is untrue about the JH stand, it's not 100% untouchable.
The outside facia is, the turnstiles etc, but the roof isn't, and I believe as long as the original steels remain, the wooden seats can come out.
Also, we own the pathway outside all way up to road edge, which is an extra 4M.
If they wanted to expand the JH Stand they'd have to look at an Ibrox type solution, although I fear the residents opposite will object.
I like our littleish beautiful ground, wouldn't want it any other way
Quote from: HV71 on March 18, 2024, 09:30:18 PMYou've heard of Cottage hospitals - well it is now Cottage Hospitality ! Tourists and corporate money will be our saviour and future. " Swimming pools movie stars, that's the way it's going to be " ( for those of you of a certain age we are the Fulham Hillbillies)
Progress I suppose and maybe the only sustainable option. ( though it hurts )
Talking of Hillbillies, watched episode 1, Series 1 of the Beverly Hillbillies yesterday. So silly but a classic of its time.
Quote from: itombomb on March 18, 2024, 11:18:00 PMAs has been said, you could conceivably rebuild and increase the capacity of the Hammersmith and Putney ends.
The problem is the lack of space either side (unless you could buy up some of Bishop's park) means to add a significant amount of seating would mean you would have go pretty high/steep, probably even with a second tier - and I don't even know how you could do that safely with so little space for steps/exits.
Perhaps some deal could be done with the Council where we get some land but, provide changing facilities, equipment and upkeep of a couple of Sunday League pitches over an extended period. Even then we could only get up to 40,000ish with Hammersmith End taken into account also. Many hurdles to cross though.
Quote from: btffc on March 18, 2024, 08:54:06 PMQuote from: WhiteJC on March 18, 2024, 08:42:29 PMQuote from: btffc on March 18, 2024, 08:27:32 PMQuote from: Kimbleman on March 18, 2024, 08:20:45 PMIt's not just about the seat capacity rather than how much you charge for the seat.
Man city capacity is 53,000 but tickets are circa £27-30 each as it's 'tup north.
If we have a 30,000 capacity but at an average of what, £50 it's pretty similar gate receipts.
Its all pretty small beer against the TV cash in any case.
The real money is in hospitality seats which is why the Riverside was rebuilt and why I think it's fairly unlikely we do anything with the Hammersmith and Putney Ends anytime soon as those would be rebuilt to add a few thousand seats and very few if any hospitality seats making recouping the investment difficult.
they could add more hospitality boxes for either stand which would surely add more revenue?
They could but just those boxes don't have many seats so they'd likely need to use a half or a whole section for hospitality which in the Hammy end surely wouldn't go over well given current relations between fans and the club. Also before they would even consider any of that they will need to see how demand is for all the new hospitality opening up in the Riverside over a decent length of time to gauge whether adding more would even sell well.
I'm hoping the Khans decide to do it as more of a vanity project/increased long term value of the club and stadium because I just don't see it making a lot of sense financially at least in a way that doesn't reduce the number of regular priced seats.
At a recent meeting between club and trust club advised they have no plans for Hammersmith or Putney Ends.
After the debacle of the Riverside Stand, I'm surprised anyone is even considering more stadium expansion works. Let them put in sanitary toilets around the ground and finish the Riverside Stand, and then we can have a think.
Possibly going onto a different topic altogether but could a safe standing area in the Hammy end be a way forward to increase capacity, even if its just 2 blocks on the outside wings. Alternatively either a 2 tier Hammy end or cantilever steep "kop" style could work.
I appreciate that the way to more money is hospitality but if you lose the atmosphere and noise then it becomes less inviting for the hospitality market.
Women's football is starting to pull in fans why not develope that side of our business and give them and their fans access to the Cottage.
Surely if we wanted to properly expand in future, filling in the corner of the Hammy end with the Riverside and the Hammy End with the JH stand is the next areas to look at? Also if we looked at renovating the Putney/Hammy end which they will one day need, if we went with something as steep as the Riverside stand it would mean we'd likely get more seats in? I like the idea of safe standing on a lower tier at the Hammy end, similar kind of size to the Riverside lower tier and maybe a way to build a bit of atmosphere down behind the goal?
Quote from: Yorkie_FFC on March 19, 2024, 09:52:07 AMPossibly going onto a different topic altogether but could a safe standing area in the Hammy end be a way forward to increase capacity, even if its just 2 blocks on the outside wings. Alternatively either a 2 tier Hammy end or cantilever steep "kop" style could work.
with the way so many opposition fans get into all areas of the ground I fear that a safe standing area could be a recipe for trouble
Given the outlay on the Riverside and the challenges in completing it, I don't think we will redevelop anything else soon.
However we should absolutely be developing plans for the Putney/Hammersmith ends, even if such work is a decade away. Having a more modern stand would allow us to increase matchday revenue alongside fan experience, as we could finally fix the concourses (adding more toilets as well as more food/drink points) and the turnstiles.
Also, speaking just for myself as I am sure this would be controversial, I would like the club to redevelop the Putney end and ultimately switch home fans to that end. It would be much better for the atmosphere to have the main home stand next to the cottage and the media area, which might also help improve our perception with the tv only crowd.
Quote from: bencher on March 19, 2024, 09:23:40 AMAfter the debacle of the Riverside Stand, I'm surprised anyone is even considering more stadium expansion works. Let them put in sanitary toilets around the ground and finish the Riverside Stand, and then we can have a think.
I agree, there has been a floater swimming around in one of the ablutions at the Hammy End since
the Siege of Mafeking in 1899 during the Second Boer War, and it is still alive.
Quote from: Eton White on March 18, 2024, 07:28:25 PMThe Cottage will always be big enough. We'll just have to sit closer together!
Seriously though, I don't think it matters too much whether we have a capacity of 30,000 or 40,000. The difference in income wouldn't be huge and it's unlikely we'd be able to fill a big stadium anyway.
I think that if everyone became thinner then we could solve the problem. I demand the cessation of all sales of meat pies. The price today is not a sufficient deterrent.
Quote from: Grassy Noel on March 19, 2024, 01:21:17 PMQuote from: Eton White on March 18, 2024, 07:28:25 PMThe Cottage will always be big enough. We'll just have to sit closer together!
Seriously though, I don't think it matters too much whether we have a capacity of 30,000 or 40,000. The difference in income wouldn't be huge and it's unlikely we'd be able to fill a big stadium anyway.
I think that if everyone became thinner then we could solve the problem. I demand the cessation of all sales of meat pies. The price today is not a sufficient deterrent.
I think you've hit upon the perfect solution. Make the meat pies so expensive that either:
a) People still buy them, but the increase in meat pie revenue means there's no need to extend the ground.
b) People stop buying them. Fans get skinnier, enabling us to increase capacity by fitting more of them in.
It's a win win.
As I understand it, the limiting factor to our crowd capacity is not the size of the ground but the escape routes from it.
In the event of an emergency evacuation you have to be able to get a large number away from the immediate vicinity of the ground in a certain time. The large soulless concrete bowls so beloved of developers have a 360 degree escape corridor, especially when there is a shopping area or huge car park or whatever, so a large number of people can get away safely, swiftly.
We have the Thames cutting off a huge chunk of the same corridor from the Cottage, meaning that in the event of an emergency evacuation people would be using Stevenage Road, Finlay Street and Harbord Street to get away. As anyone who has left at full time will know, it can be a very slow moving crowd at that stage. In an emergency people would also flow out of the other emergency exits, but even so, we would not get a lot of people clear in a reasonable time. Hence the crowd limit of roughly 30,000.
I have read all of the above posts with interest and think that the view that the club's intention is to make the Cottage into an elite high priced ground looking for hospitality clients is perhaps correct.
If this is the basis of the Riverside stand and is the Khan's golden egg then it has be slow in hatching, we had best find a new goose to lay the remaining eggs.
Think the Riverside will be a game changer in terms of income.
Quote from: mrmicawbers on March 19, 2024, 08:34:03 PMThink the Riverside will be a game changer in terms of income.
Right now it is not , it's completion must be given top priority.
Just imagine how much money we must be losing with us on form and fixture like Spurs, Liverpool and Man. City passing by with all of those empty seats.
I had heard that there's no more plans to raise the capacity. Just plans to raise money by reducing the amount of toilets in the Hammi end and start selling matchday toilet passes!
Club have repeatedly told the FST there are no plans to do anything to with either end stand, so guessing we'll have to get by with what we got
I would like the return of controlled terraces to the Cottage as well as other grounds. There is no reason we cannot have safe standing and that would increase capacity and game atmosphere.
Would love to see a portion of the Putney end converted to safe standing. Could create some good atmosphere between that and the away section.
Quote from: Nick Bateman on March 20, 2024, 04:07:34 PMI would like the return of controlled terraces to the Cottage as well as other grounds. There is no reason we cannot have safe standing and that would increase capacity and game atmosphere.
Agreed. However, it would need to be the terrace style that they have in Germany (at Dortmund for instance) rather than the rail seats they seem to prefer here - which don't have any scope for increased capacity.
I thought with safe standing they only allow so many for health and safety reasons.
Quote from: perry geyton on March 19, 2024, 02:10:31 AMI like our littleish beautiful ground, wouldn't want it any other way
[/quote
So do most of us but the question is can it hold enough people to support a top ten premier league team.
Quote from: filham on March 20, 2024, 06:20:44 PMQuote from: perry geyton on March 19, 2024, 02:10:31 AMI like our littleish beautiful ground, wouldn't want it any other way
So do most of us but the question is can it hold enough people to support a top ten premier league team.
I think the answer to that question is "yes".
Where do you think all these additional match going regulars are going to come from?
We've got clubs like Chelsea, Brentford and QPR right on our doorstep and other top tier London clubs like Spurs, Arsenal, Palace and West Ham not all that far away either (thank you TFL!) .
That level of competition for local fans means we'll never have huge gates unless we have a sustained period of actually winning things, not just being in the top 10 of the Premier League.
Quote from: filham on March 18, 2024, 06:53:41 PMI have a vision of Fulham becoming a regular premier league top ten team, that is up there with the big boys.
However doubt is then raised regarding our ground capacity as at below 30,000,even with the new Riverside fully operational, may not generate sufficient income.
Can any other areas be enlarged, it seems not, we are hemmed in by luxury flats, Bishops Park and Stevenage Road.
Look at other top ten competitor's grounds
Man.U., Spurs, West Ham, Arsenal--- Above 60,000
Man.City, Liverpool, Newcastle,----Above 50,000
Villa, Chelsea, Everton ----------Above 40,000.
Even Brighton have a larger ground capacity than us.
No way do we want to move from the Cottage but--------------.
Correct.
Perhaps it's time to resurrect the ground share with that lot down the road.........
