NFR: Philosophy class part I

[sipwell]

What are your thoughts on the following statement

If you "swear" in a language that nobody understands, is it still a swear?


(Yes, it is a rephrasing of the "if a tree falls in a forest, does it make sound?" I updated it to fit a forum message board where swears are not allowed, re the rules)

[Burt]

An interesting philosophical point, Mr Sipwell sir.

I would contend that as I swear to myself and out of earshot to others (e.g. if I hit my thumb with a hammer), then if I swear in front of others but they don't understand it then it will still be swearing because I understand it.

Bollox to all that crap, I'm off to have some lunch  :dft011:

[Lighthouse]

It depends if one is trying to communicate ones frustration. If one swears in ones car, but because all the windows are open, people hear it.  It is swearing. If the windows are closed and nobody hears it. It is still swearing. But bothers nobody. Communication is still communication even if one is only communication with oneself.

If a tree falls on the car when a bear is in a room in a safe with dynamite. One will swear.  094.gif

[Ron Sheepskin]

Surely not.

If nobody understands it, then it's just gibberish rather than having any sort of meaning. I could write "neuken" and you may decide I'm swearing, but anyone without Google will probably just ignore it and not take offence. (Mods please note - this is an illustrative example only, ta)

If we are to swear in a language that truly is not understood, or translateable with a public domain tool, then we're probably inventing words in Klingon and should probably just get a life instead.

Let me toss the question back at you - if you were to swear in a post on here, but in Wolloon, would any of us know? Would you consider the word swearing, or part of your normal speaking habit?

Should we consider words that have multiple meanings? I'm extremely fond of the word "frottage". There are two definitions in the Oxford English dictionary, one sexual and one not. Therefore context has to be taken into account also.

I think that's probably the extent of my philosophical musings for now. I'm off for some absinthe and a lie down...

[The Bronsons]

It depends what you mean by 'language'. My dictionary's definition of 'language' includes the phrase 'the use of words in an agreed way'. That implies at least two people need to agree on what something means for it to be part of a language.

Of course, other definitions are available.

[finnster01]

Of course it is still a swear.

It is a bit like "if I fart and nobody hear or smell it" it is still a fart because I can both hear and smell it unfortunately. Happens too frequent for my liking actually

[simplyfulham]

Sipwell

Words don't have any intrinsic value that are not closely linked with how you relate to them. So words have no real objective value - as a communcative tool, they are purely subjective.

You only have to look at slang as an example of words undertaking new meanings. Historically gay was never a word that described homosexuals.

If you were to use a swear word from Victorian England that has now taken on a different meaning, would anyone be any the wiser? But this was once a swear word though.

The question you're really asking is - who's reponsibilty for the word is it? The person reponsible for communicating or the person receiving the communication?

[Scrumpy]

Did you know that research has shown that between 0% and 3.5% of all words spoken are swear words. There must be an awful lot of nicely spoken vicars to get the average down to that amount, because the guy next to me in H5 is definately 30% +  :026: !!

[sipwell]

I call for a new subtitle for Fulham FC.

Fulham FC
The most educated club in England


Interesting lecture! As the "teacher", I have to stay out of the discussion not to hinder your learning process :)

[Whiteroom]

Yes it is a swear word. If the utterer understands then it is swearing.

[HatterDon]

John McEnroe on Ilie Nastase getting points deducted for "abusing the referee:" -- Nastase speaks eight languages; you'd think he'd be smart enough to swear in a language the ref doesn't understand.

[GoldCoastWhite]

Interesting point HD. I always think it's a bit unfair when a tennis player is warned, or has a point deducted for an "audible obscenity" as it's usually an English language profanity that drops them in it. The smart ones would seem to have an unfair advantage if they are able to unleash a torrent of ripe language in a language that the umpire doesn't understand... Do they perhaps have a team of interpreters, a la UN meetings, who all have radio contact with the ump ?  096.gig

[RidgeRider]

To my fellow Mods,

I believe the rebel alliance is forming and revolution is on their minds....I propose we ban the word 'swear' and all it synonyms (familiar, formal, or slang) in any language spoken in Belgium and furthermore that a partial censure of our colleague from Belgium to apply to all things with the exception of Belgium beer, Cycling, and personal "digs" at Airfix, The Equilizer and Mr. FC Silver Fox, be enacted immediately.


:dft012:

[LBNo11]

"If you "swear" in a language that nobody understands, is it still a swear?"

...Of course it is still a swear word, the issue is whether it is considered offensive to those who don't understand what is being said, but can tell by the tone in which it is said as being insulting or threatening. Also it would depend on how offensive the word(s) is/are in the country the language is from, and in what context...

[Scrumpy]

"If you "swear" in a language that nobody understands, is it still a swear?"

...Of course it is still a swear word, the issue is whether it is considered offensive to those who don't understand what is being said, but can tell by the tone in which it is said as being insulting or threatening. Also it would depend on how offensive the word(s) is/are in the country the language is from, and in what context...

¡Piss apagado la respiración del burro!  :57:

[Ron Sheepskin]

Did you know that research has shown that between 0% and 3.5% of all words spoken are swear words. There must be an awful lot of nicely spoken vicars to get the average down to that amount, because the guy next to me in H5 is definately 30% +  :026: !!

Hmm. I'm in H5 tomorrow night. Should I take this as implicit permission to swear in Sanskrit?

[HatterDon]

Unsolicited sports history lesson follows.

Around the early 1900s, the New York [baseball] Giants had a deaf mute player who was called [not very PC in those days] "Dummy" Hoy. Because he couldn't hear instructions from the bench, the team developed a system of rudimentary signs to communicate what he should do while as a base runner [3rd base coach delivers signs] or in the field for positioning changes [signs from a fellow player or coach]. The signs from the bench to the third-base coach to base-runnners and the signs from the bench to the catcher and other fielders are part and parcel of the game today.

Why is this appropriate in this thread? In one game the umpire called Hoy out on a pitch Hoy thought was well outside. He dropped his bat and proceeded to sign some pretty heavy abuse furiously. The Giants' bench roared with laughter, since most of them had learned a bit of sign to communicate with him. Suddenly, the ump responds with some signage of his own and ejected Hoy. Seemed he was the ONE official in the league with deaf parents.

[Lighthouse]

If I use a word as substitute for a blasphemy then that is still considered a swear word and the mods would ban it. For instance words that are made up but sound like swear words. As they do in American SCI FI series. However if I use the word cabbage as a swear word. Would the word 'cabbage' always be considered offensive?

[LBNo11]

If I use a word as substitute for a blasphemy then that is still considered a swear word and the mods would ban it. For instance words that are made up but sound like swear words. As they do in American SCI FI series. However if I use the word cabbage as a swear word. Would the word 'cabbage' always be considered offensive?

...Red, Napa or Savoy..?