Overwhelmingly negative reactions...

[Crita]

Whilst I don't often post, I've read this forum pretty much 5 days a week for the last year or two. I've got a question that I'm hoping someone (I'm looking at you, White Noise!) can answer for me...

Was the Wolves game the first loss in a competitive fixture under the management of Martin Jol?

I can only think of the other Europa games, all draws or wins, and the 0-0 opening day draw against Villa. Or am I off the mark?

If it is in fact his first competitive loss as Fulham manager, I can't really understand the overwhelmingly negative reactions I'm reading. Sure, it wasn't great, but it was his first loss. He's still working out who works best in what roles and the best system/style for the team. It's the first time he's tried his ideas out against Premier League opponents away from home. So it obviously didn't work out, and if he's as good a manager as his record suggests, he will learn from that game and move on.

Or am I cutting him too much slack?

[Snibbo]

Or am I cutting him too much slack?

No, I don't think you are, especially when you consider the match was not untypical of most away performances under Roy, and we were without the most important man in the squad, and we had played a match on the Thursday.

The only manager who made us look any good away from home in the League was Hughes, for a few games at the end of last season, when BZ came back from injury.

[White Noise]

It is the first competitive loss under Jol.

I agree with you guys that these take time. Hodgson took months to get to grips with Fulham and even then it looked like he got lucky in the Great Escape run in. Hughes was getting bore draws and messing with the defence until late last year and then Simon Davies and others mentioned they had spoken to him about their concerns and he had agreed to incorporate some of the stuff that had worked under Hodgson with his own methodology. All of a sudden our results improved.

Jol is not stupid and will have seen the players stats from the last few seasons. What he is doing with the side now will be very different from what he does in 2 months time and 6 months time.

[finnster01]

What impressive record?

If history is anything to go by, he is more likely to be sacked or leave under a "mutual" agreement.
And besides, most of his players hated him because he is notorious for not giving them respect.
Fans loved him though for some strange reason (just like Fulham) until he really shat in his bed at Ajax.

[Crita]

What impressive record?

If history is anything to go by, he is more likely to be sacked or leave under a "mutual" agreement.
And besides, most of his players hated him because he is notorious of not giving them respect.
Fans loved him though for some strange reason (just like Fulham) until he really shat in his bed at Ajax.

Note that I only said "as good a manager as his record suggests" not "impressive record". But point taken. Having only a passing knowledge of his record to date, what I meant by that was that he has enough nous about him to adjust things in order to improve the performances of the team. That assumption is mostly based on his time at Spurs and the fact that Hamburg made the semi final (?) of the Europa League.

That's interesting - I hadn't heard that about the players feeling disrespected by him. And I'm not really aware of what happened at Ajax...

Google here I come!

[finnster01]

Save yourself some work and just ask Danny Murphy. Despite the lovely PC quotes in the papers, they never got along at Spurs.
Maybe that is one of the reasons Danny has looked lost so far?

[Crita]

It is the first competitive loss under Jol.

I agree with you guys that these take time. Hodgson took months to get to grips with Fulham and even then it looked like he got lucky in the Great Escape run in. Hughes was getting bore draws and messing with the defence until late last year and then Simon Davies and others mentioned they had spoken to him about their concerns and he had agreed to incorporate some of the stuff that had worked under Hodgson with his own methodology. All of a sudden our results improved.

Jol is not stupid and will have seen the players stats from the last few seasons. What he is doing with the side now will be very different from what he does in 2 months time and 6 months time.

Thanks for confirming that White Noise  :54:

Interesting comment about Hughes listening to the players and incorporating factors from the Hodgson methodology into his own. I can't imagine too many Premier League managers being so obliging...

[Crita]

Save yourself some work and just ask Danny Murphy. Despite the lovely PC quotes in the papers, they never got along at Spurs.
Maybe that is one of the reasons Danny has looked lost so far?

I wonder why they never got along? May be the whole disrespect thing...

Good point, it's always hard to work (in this case play) well when you feel like you're at odds with your boss, and feel like you have to keep proving yourself to him. I just hope they can act like adults, let bygones be bygones and start pulling in the same direction...

[Oakeshott]

I think the problem is not the loss, which was always likely after a Thursday Europa League game, but the selections. I doubt many of us are happy with the way Jol has (a) disrupted the best partnership we have had in the middle of the defence for years, possibly ever in the Club's history, (b) preferred Etuhu over Sidwell and (c) seemingly dismissed Baird from consideration. And of course there remains a questionmark over Bobby's status last Saturday - was he injured or rested: with Roy we'd have believed whatever he said, with Jol one is not so sure.

At the moment it looks rather like the early days of Mark Hughes. He brought in three players, one of which we never really saw, and the other two initially seemed good buys, though Salcido flattered a bit to deceive defensive-wise and thus far Dembele has initimated more than he has regularly shown. Jol has brought in three (at least), and JAR is surely a plus, with the young Swiss chap every bit as promising as Dembele. But we've yet to see the third. Plus Premiership results - admittedly only two so far - have not been encouraging. But with neither Jol nor Hughes in his year with us do I get the impression that they have a clear idea about how they want us to play, whereas it was evident that Roy did.

Hopefully Jol will prove a success, but ...

[LBNo11]

...thank you Oakeshott for putting down so eloquently a much more reasoned response than the one I was compiling.

'H' Block/The Thames Barrier worked, did not require any tinkering, both players covered for each others mistakes instinctively, they were the backbone that gave the confidence to the goalie and to the center midfield and let the attack get on with matters up front.  Hughes at right back looks lost.

It wasn't broke.

It is early doors, experimentation is inevitable with any new (third in three seasons) manager, but the performance against wolves was clueless and woeful, nobody seemed to understand the game plan - if there was one. And yet again we pump balls up to AJ on his own - ye gods.

Thats why I am feeling negative, a win or two and maybe even away will no doubt change my demeanor, some of us fans are fickle and feel the need to say how we feel now and again...

[TonyGilroy]

I share the concerns but don't understand the apparent anger at what was, actually, a not atypical away performance for us.

Jol's doing things I wouldn't have done but the team needs an injection of youth and pace and hopefully that's being addressed in the next few days.

Trying Senderos at CB and Hughes at RB aren't hanging offences - what matters is how these pan out and what Jol does when things aren't working.

I don't buy in to the Etuhu bad - Sidwell good mantra either. They both have strengths and weaknesses.

I can't ask Danny Murphy what he thinks about Jol and if I could I don't suppose he'd tell me and I seriously doubt that any poster here KNOWS either.

Cut the guy some slack. Let's see what it looks like in a few months time.

[Peabody]

The argument about Danny Murphy and MJ do not get along isinteresting, does the same apply to Kelly and Davies? I would be interested in the evidence that Jol disrespects players though.

[Yarden]

We always lose against Wolves away, no surpise there. The thing we need though is another striker. We got no attacking play at all when Zamora is out.

[millsy]

Hi guys, Just introducing myself, having only just found this forum. Been reading the FFC forum for some time but too much nonsense and abuse thrown around there. Great to find this, much more measured and thoughtful debate going on, which is especially useful to calm the nerves when things are not going too well.

I'm a season-ticket holder (H6) and have watched every competitive home game so far this season and was at Wolves Sunday. Have to say, I'm a bit uneasy with performances to date, even against the part-timers and we seem to have lost the fluency and neat passing which has been a hallmark of our play for a few seasons now. Let's hope this returns as players settle in with the new regime.

Most frustrating things for me:

1. long kicks from Schwarzter or Hangeland for Dempsey & AJ; why not roll it to full backs and build?
2. playing Dickson ahead of Sidwell; we need forward passes and midfielders getting on the end of things occasionally
3. our midfielders not demanding the ball from our centrebacks, thus leaving them to hoof it and look bad; too often Danny shows for Brede but simply plays the ball back to him then moves away again. If he had the legs I'm sure he'd take more responsibility

That's enough for my first post but really hoping we sign El Ham or Ruiz this week!

[ImperialWhite]

Hi guys, Just introducing myself, having only just found this forum. Been reading the FFC forum for some time but too much nonsense and abuse thrown around there. Great to find this, much more measured and thoughtful debate going on, which is especially useful to calm the nerves when things are not going too well.

I'm a season-ticket holder (H6) and have watched every competitive home game so far this season and was at Wolves Sunday. Have to say, I'm a bit uneasy with performances to date, even against the part-timers and we seem to have lost the fluency and neat passing which has been a hallmark of our play for a few seasons now. Let's hope this returns as players settle in with the new regime.

Most frustrating things for me:

1. long kicks from Schwarzter or Hangeland for Dempsey & AJ; why not roll it to full backs and build?
2. playing Dickson ahead of Sidwell; we need forward passes and midfielders getting on the end of things occasionally
3. our midfielders not demanding the ball from our centrebacks, thus leaving them to hoof it and look bad; too often Danny shows for Brede but simply plays the ball back to him then moves away again. If he had the legs I'm sure he'd take more responsibility

That's enough for my first post but really hoping we sign El Ham or Ruiz this week!

Fantastic first post! (get your second in sharpish so you're not stuck as "Michael Jackson"  :015:)

I agree (see bold). I've yet to see a game under Jol where I've thought "man, didn't we play well there?". However, Fulham of late never seem to get the new manager honeymoon, we seem to get the new manager slump. If Hughes reign is anything to go by, than at around Christmas time we'll really start to gather pace (at just the right time to do well in Europe maybe...).

This is still essentially the side that did so well in Europa (which was old even then) so whether it was Hughes or Jol managing us this season, there were bound to be teething problems as they try to build for the future.

[The Equalizer]

Welcome Millsy - some good observations there.

I can't really add much to what has been said so far. I completely agree about H/H pairing, DM and Etuhu and think that although you need to tinker to progress, at the same time, if it isn't working, why continue with it?

My biggest problem is the quality of the opposition that we've faced. At the end of last season I had confidence going into every single match seriously believing that we could get a result. Teams like Villa at home would almost be a guaranteed 3 points based on our home form, and Wolves away shouldn't be such a problem considering how woeful they were too. Ok, our away form against Wolves is pretty shocking, but as far as I'm concerned, it's the team of now and not the results of yesteryear that count.

Also, every single team we've played in Europa has been poor. Really poor. And we've been just as poor in every game. Getting a draw against a pub side in the Faroe Islands? Comments of nonchalance from DM prior to the Split game, followed by a dour performance and another draw against poor competition?

Yes, we've played 10 competitive games this season and we've only lost 1 of them, but every team we've played has been bad. Based on the fixture list we should be able to rack up a considerable amount of points in the first 10 games or so and put ourselves in a position of comfort. If we're still playing badly come November we're going to be in a terrible position for the rest of the season. Our Christmas period is going to be one hell of a challenge with some of the teams we've got fixtures against then.

We need to address issues NOW or this could be a very long season.

[finnster01]

The argument about Danny Murphy and MJ do not get along isinteresting, does the same apply to Kelly and Davies? I would be interested in the evidence that Jol disrespects players though.

The Ajax team took collective action when the Ajax board was changed. This led to his downfall. When Frank De Boer came on they were 4th in the league. They ended up winning it, with some of the teachers (Martin Jol) favorite pupils on the bench (Hamadoui)

[Lighthouse]

If we bring in a forward or two and a right back and we play like a team who wants to compete. Then all this so called negativity will melt away. But it was a shocking performance against Wolves with a team selection that didn't work. If Jol is a success here, he may well be tempted away for better things. If he does poorly he will be sacked.

I understand why people over react to the negative reactions about Jol. I felt the same when fans attacked Hughes for not fitting in. Not fitting into what was never explained. But this is a MB about Fulham. Not just a fan club. When we start playing well we will all be shiny and happy. But until we have a team that can pass a ball and forwards who can look like they belong in the same team as the midfield. Overwhelming negative reactions is what we will have.

[jarv]

I feel the negativity was more to do with the team's performance than the result. let's face it, that was a WOEFUL performance by all. We have come to expect more from Fulham these days after 3 fantastic seasons. Fulham being "Fulhamish" is ok, when tongue in cheek and we are in a good position. Not exactly what the doctor ordered on Sunday.

[The Bronsons]

I feel the negativity was more to do with the team's performance than the result. let's face it, that was a WOEFUL performance by all. We have come to expect more from Fulham these days after 3 fantastic seasons. Fulham being "Fulhamish" is ok, when tongue in cheek and we are in a good position. Not exactly what the doctor ordered on Sunday.

This +1. Surely no Fulham fan expects to win away against anybody in the Prem. But we do expect to be competitive and we expect to be tough to beat. We've seen what can be done with an average squad and above-average organisation, and fear that the latter is being unpicked.