Our best XI, our formation (Jol's brilliant Oranje)

[ImperialWhite]

Whoscored.com (my new favourite website) has our most frequent formation down as a 4411, something like this:



But yesterday I thought no... that doesn't fit in with what I'm seeing. Are we not seeing a 433, basically?

*Dempsey is plays in such an advanced position and so centrally - that doesn't fit in to a 4411, for me. He's a wide forward in a 433.
*Dembélé isn't a supporting striker. Not at all. To my eyes Dembélé, Diarra and Murphy were all central, fairly deep-lying midfielders (although Murphy probably averaged the deepest, but still made lots of key passes).
*Not that it makes any difference vis-à-vis whether we play 4411 or 433, but I love the lateral asymmetry in our side. Down the left we have Riise in such as advanced position relative to Kelly/Duff, it almost looks like a back 3 at times.

Do we not play a bit more like this?:



People who know about coaching and formations and all that (Frankie-Peter Taylor et al.) feel free to tell me that I'm chattin' nonsense again. Thoughts*?

...

*A PC joke:

Favourite sport? Discus.

[sipwell]

*A PC joke:

Favourite sport? Discus.

By the powers vested in me, go do 20 laps on the track according to the following scheme:
1) run normal
2) funny walk/run (lap time maximum 4 minutes)
3) backwards running
4) run on one leg
5) run on other leg

(continued...)


Isn't the second graph your appreciation of the game rather than the initial (and intended) tactic? I also think that Duff plays even more along the line than he does now. And why is Schwarzer so far out of his goal? Looks dangerous!

[ImperialWhite]

Isn't the second graph your appreciation of the game rather than the initial (and intended) tactic? I also think that Duff plays even more along the line than he does now. And why is Schwarzer so far out of his goal? Looks dangerous!

Quite possibly.

I've always struggled to reconcile what I see on the pitch and the formations I see written down.

E.g. What's the difference between a back 4 with a highly defensive defensive-midfielder and a back 5?  :032: .

[sipwell]

Isn't the second graph your appreciation of the game rather than the initial (and intended) tactic? I also think that Duff plays even more along the line than he does now. And why is Schwarzer so far out of his goal? Looks dangerous!

Quite possibly.

I've always struggled to reconcile what I see on the pitch and the formations I see written down.

E.g. What's the difference between a back 4 with a highly defensive defensive-midfielder and a back 5?  :032: .

Essentially a 4 + 1 vs. a 1 + 4 :)

[General]

Wish this team would stay together for at least one more season. The potential if they're all firing on all cylinders could really do some damage.

[JimmyDunnesBum]

           MS
Kelly  Brede Aaron JAR
         Danny
DD Mousa Diarra Demps
           Pog

This is how I viewed it yesterday

As for Clint playing centrally , he seems to follow his nose and drift in field a lot when we're coming forward . Whether the manager has given him the office to do this or not I wouldn't know , but it may not be any coincidence that Jol has ended up taking Pog off and pushing Dempsey up top a couple of times recently - well , if he insists on playing there ...

[LRCN]

most formations are defined by their defensive shape, because that is much more rigid (clearly it has to be) and in that sense 4-4-1-1 is not wrong.

with the ball we are so fluid that it is quick difficult to tell what our formation is. 4-4-1-1/4-3-3, both can be very similar and very different. could even call it 4-4-2 with no left midfielder because dempsey is so far forward and central. what is great though is that there is clearly, now, pattern and structure in this apparant chaos where perhaps it wasn't earlier in the season.

[leonffc]

           MS
Kelly  Brede Aaron JAR
         Danny
DD Mousa Diarra Demps
           Pog

This is how I viewed it yesterday

As for Clint playing centrally , he seems to follow his nose and drift in field a lot when we're coming forward .

That's how I saw the formation (I was trying to work it out during the game).
With Dempsey coming inside it allows Riise the space to bomb forward. Kelly isn't as attacking so Duff hugs the line more.
Although I agree it looks like a 4141, it could also become 352 attacking formation as Dempsey moves up alongside Pog and Riise (or Kelly but not as often) moves into midfield.

[Frankie-Peter Taylor]

I completely agree with you mate, it's a more recently developed 433 that got pioneered (in my opinion) by Jose Mourinho's Chelsea side. Claude Makelele was the holding/sitting player, and two midfielders that are allowed more freedom to get forward. I can see where people are coming from with a 4141, but that, again in my opinion, is a negative way of describing it, because the second set of four, all attack, especially when we play Kerim Frei over Diarra or Murphy which moves Dempsey into central midfield.

All you have to do is look at Barcelona, Sergio Busquets is our Danny Murphy, Xavi is our Mahamadou Diarra and Andres Iniesta is our Moussa Dembele. I'm just placing that into style of play and where they are set out for us, by no means am I comparing Iniesta and Dembele...

The best thing with having 'inside forwards' in Clint Dempsey and Damien Duff, it allows John Arne Riise and Stephen Kelly to provide the width.

Would also like to agree with General's statement 'Wish this team would stay together for at least one more season. The potential if they're all firing on all cylinders could really do some damage.' We have a team that is more than capable to copy Newcastle's form this season IF they sort out their away form.

[MJG]

I see it as a 4-5-1 that changes to a 4-3-3 very quickly.
You have Duff down the right who while cutting inside only does it when he has the ball.
Dempsey on the other has over the last ten games started to move inside behind or with the striker a lot more. this does of course leave Riise the only player getting down the left. Its very rare you see Dempsey pick the ball up right on the touchline and this is one reason we average the lowest number of attacks down the left in the lge.

The 3 midfielders lineup with Murphy as the central player and the other two to his left or right. Diarra & Dembele do switch around just depending on where they find themselves. While Murphy is the deeper you can see that either of the D's fall back to give 2 deeper midfieldres leaving the other one more forward. This was seen more in the first half with Diarra also making runs forward but when we lost the ball you saw Dembele had stayed back.

[JimmyDunnesBum]

           MS
Kelly  Brede Aaron JAR
         Danny
DD Mousa Diarra Demps
           Pog

This is how I viewed it yesterday

As for Clint playing centrally , he seems to follow his nose and drift in field a lot when we're coming forward .

That's how I saw the formation (I was trying to work it out during the game).
With Dempsey coming inside it allows Riise the space to bomb forward. Kelly isn't as attacking so Duff hugs the line more.
Although I agree it looks like a 4141, it could also become 352 attacking formation as Dempsey moves up alongside Pog and Riise (or Kelly but not as often) moves into midfield.

I don't see it quite the same way as far as the left is concerned.

On the right , Duff and Kelly work pretty well in tandem  ,imo - there always seems to be an option for whoever has the ball . On the left  ,however , Riise  often seems isolated when we come forword ,  because Clint has drifted in field , which is why we appear to have a better balance when either Kerim or Alex is playing - they play their position.

Now I'm not for one second suggesting that Clint should be dropped , that would be madness ,  rather that perhaps he'd be  better employed in a more central role. Perhaps.