Dempsey Shame.

[nose]

As an observation last season, through simple observation, using my skill and judgement and the few people I know who have reliably told me stuff about the club before,  I was aware that Mr Jol had fallen out with a number of players over a number of issues. Most of those players have now left. Even Ray L and Mr Jol were not on the best of terms.
Now after a 17 goal season, voted player of the year it semms Mr Jol has fallen out with Clint. What was Clint's crime. When really pressed on USA  television that if he was offered the opportunity he would like the chance to play champions league football. He was actuially really nice about fulham but one has to be fair, at his age this is probably gonna be his only chance to see if he is up to it. As it is Mr Jol has now clearly got the needle to Clint, has spoken more than once very unhelpfully in the media on the subject and refuses to let clint properly rejoin the first team.

The whole situation is a great shame, we have a very good player excluded, and nobody that interested in coming in for him except at silly money. Because of Mr Jol's handling, if and when clint goes i suspect the transfer fee will be about half what we could have otherwise got.

And before anyone gets the wrong idea, I have never been Dempsey's greatest fan, he has had one good season, but prior to that he was the most frustating player. Further the way we played norwich was a breath of fresh air and I did wonder if Dempsey would actually fir in or whether I prefered that starting line up.
If he stays, and I hope he does my opinion is that the current style would challenge him, but if he adapted we would all benifit.

But I can't help feeling the whole situation is a pity, just like with Bobby and AJ and Ray L.

[AlFayedsChequebook]

I really dont buy into the idea that Dempsey is the innocent party in all of this. Not at all.

I am sure there is blame to be apportioned to both sides of the argument, but lets not make this out as though Jol is forcing Dempsey out.

The AJ and BZ problems were completely different - both refused to adapt to a new style of play, one started leaking stuff to the press (incredibly poor behaviour) and both buggered off to one of our local rivals. Forget em is what I say.

[supersub]

Why would Jol choose to force out/sideline his top scorer?

[PokerMatt]

I really dont buy into the idea that Dempsey is the innocent party in all of this. Not at all.

I am sure there is blame to be apportioned to both sides of the argument, but lets not make this out as though Jol is forcing Dempsey out.

The AJ and BZ problems were completely different - both refused to adapt to a new style of play, one started leaking stuff to the press (incredibly poor behaviour) and both buggered off to one of our local rivals. Forget em is what I say.

Nothing really to add.

I, unlike the OP, have been Dempsey's biggest fan. I don't agree that Jol would just force him out for no reason. We only get given what is reported, which is a few interviews where Dempsey has said he wants to play in the CL. Obviously more has happened behind the scenes, but Jol is not a stupid man, he knows what's best for the club and he wouldn't drop our leading scorer over a petty incident. That I am sure of.

[nose]

OK I understand the comments but Mr Jol has a track record of this sort of thing. We had a happy squad and dedicated assistant manager, suddenly we didn't. I heard the interview with dempsey and he was no more than respectful but honest. Jol's management technique and what he has said in public would not be tolerated in any normal organisation no matter what the rights and wrongs.
Clint like Bobby is a vey quiet, well spoken thoughtful person, I suspect less of the fault lies with either of them. But as none of us actually know I can only go back to my main thought that this whole thing is a great shame, we have a perfectly capable player sidelined, surely it can't be that hard to resolve the matter!

[Lighthouse]

It is a farce and there are two sides to every story. But I think Jol has come out of this better than Demps. I am no fan of Jol and his attitude towards some players has clearly made them feel unwanted. But Jol would see no profit in the latest fiasco for him or Clint. It is simply that Clint was advised that Liverpool and others wanted him. He told the club and the club did what any club would do and put the player out of harms way.

But as there has yet to be an official offer it leaves both sides with egg on their face. I would love somebody to blame. Jol however isn't culpable in this matter.

[Rupert]

It is inevitable that any manager, whoever he is, will not get on with all the players equally. I imagine there are people where you work who you tolerate, rather than like. There are certainly a couple at my place who I would not miss if they left.
Some players will not like the manager's style of playing. There is a fascinating chapter in Simon Morgan's book where he openly admits he did not see eye to eye with Micky Adams at first, a bit of a problem for a new manager when you are team captain, and Adams bluntly told him to knuckle under, or he would let Morgs rot in the reserves. Morgs did knuckle under, then when we beat Carlisle at our place he realised that Micky's ideas would work, and the rest, as they say, is history.

No doubt Maartin Jol, with his radically different approach to playing compared to Uncle Roy (ignore Hughes, he wasn't here long enough to impose his style) was inevitably going to cause the current crop of players a bit of strife. They had a system they were used to, they knew it was (relatively) successful, change would not be welcome. Of course, some players would adapt better than others, and I would put Clint Dempsey in that bracket, otherwise he would not have scored twenty-three goals for us last season.
So, on those grounds, I don't see Jol falling out with Dempsey. Bobby Zamora? Yes, unfortunately. Dickson Etuhu? Maybe (maybe not). Danny Murphy? I don't think so, length of contract was his reason to go. AJ? Wages, length of contract, the fact he was often injured, take your pick. Ray Lewington? I doubt if the club would have made as much fuss about him leaving for England permanently if that were the case.

You see, it is all about personal perception, and I am aware that I might be a "glass half full" type of person with this sort of thing, and from what I can see we do have a pretty happy camp at the moment, far more so than under Hughes.

Unless you have a red-hot source, who would be risking a highly paid job by leaking information to you, just about everything in your post is just personal opinion (as is mine, I have no hotline to the CEO either), and I seriously doubt that a professional like Jol would let personal feelings interefere with handling a transfer, which is the CEO's job, anyway, and there is a far more likely source of instructions about Clint Dempsey playing or training or whatever.

I believe that the club thought Dempsey was on his way (he seems to have thought so himself, if reports can be believed), so he was excluded from the first team because there was no point in getting players used to him being there if he was suddenly going to appear on the back pages of the tabloids in a red shirt. If the move fails to materialise, he will be brought back into the fold. Either way, we will know more by next Saturday.

[AlFayedsChequebook]

OK I understand the comments but Mr Jol has a track record of this sort of thing. We had a happy squad and dedicated assistant manager, suddenly we didn't. I heard the interview with dempsey and he was no more than respectful but honest. Jol's management technique and what he has said in public would not be tolerated in any normal organisation no matter what the rights and wrongs.
Clint like Bobby is a vey quiet, well spoken thoughtful person, I suspect less of the fault lies with either of them. But as none of us actually know I can only go back to my main thought that this whole thing is a great shame, we have a perfectly capable player sidelined, surely it can't be that hard to resolve the matter!

This I dont get. Just because a player does not talk to the press does not make them a stand up guy.

You are also conflating two completely separate situations. Zamora refused to adapt to a new style of play and started causing trouble. Do you think it is acceptable to leak stories which damage the team you are playing for, for personal gain?  It is worth noting that once Zamora buggered off to our local rivals we became a much better team.

Dempsey has one year left on his contract. He has been tapped up by Liverpool and made it clear he wants to leave the club. If the problem is with Jol, where was this problem when Dempsey had his most successful season ever under the guidance of Jol? Fulham have made the decision to keep Dempsey separate from the team until all this either happens or blows over. If Clint is here Sep 1st (I think he will be) then I guarantee he will be back with the squad and all will be fine again.

[supersub]

And where did you hear that Jol and Lewington "weren't on the best of terms"? Don't think I've heard that one before.

Didn't Jol bring Lewington back into the fold and make him his righthand man in the dug-out again after Hughes moved him out?

[Ordar]

Heres what I think has happened.

- End of season Dempsey tells Jol he wants to move to a CL side. The club agrees to sell Dempsey to one if a reasonable bid is received.
- Over the summer no bids are received. Dempsey looks at the PL's CL teams and realises that none want him.
- While away on USA duty, he is approached by Henry or another member of the FSG, who paint a magical and totally fictional vision of making Liverpool a super power again, and bringing CL football back to Anfield. They tell Dempsey that he will be signed.
- Dempsey comes back to Fulham spouting the news that the deal with Liverpool is done. Club is confused as they havent received a bid from Liverpool
- Someone at the FSG gets confused with the term "done deal" and posts a video on the website confirming Dempsey as a Liverpool player. Chaos breaks out
- Rodgers is given his budget for the season. He's already blown 9m on Borini (wtf!?), and wants to sign his man love, and massively over rated ineffectial midfielder Joe Allen from his former side. Spitting in the face of the agreement signed to not come in for Swansea players.
- Swansea play hardball over Allens valuation so Liverpool have to pay the buy out on his contract, a ludricus £15m. Visions of last years Henderson deal. This becomes the laughing stock of the transfer world.... until Sunderland bid 15m for Fletcher...
- Rodgers is compelled to talk about Clint Dempsey in interviews, saying he's someone they're interested in
- Rodgers realises that he's now blown his transfer budget for the year on 2 very average players, solving none of Liverpools problems. Liverpool continue the farsical transfer activity by claiming Daniel Agger is worth 25m... everyone laughs.
- Dempsey tells Jol that he's not committed to Fulham, so Jol does the only logical thing he can do and leaves his out of the squad. Dempsey remains under the illusion that he can move teams without a bid being received.
- Liverpool get taken apart by WBA. Agger gives a defensive masterclass on how not to defend, Joe Allen is totally ineffective in midfield, and the world forgot Borini was at the club let alone playing. Liverpool once again become a laughing stock by bringing on Crock Cole when losing 2-0 only to see Darren Anderton's clone do his hamstring for the 234th time in his career in under 10 minutes.
- Rodgers "who doesnt criticise referees" criticises the referee in time old Liverpool tradition to deflect the blame away from his side. Shockingly trying to get Martin Škrtel to play out from the back doesnt work, who could have guessed.
- On the same weekend, a Fulham side full of guile and confidence destroys Norwich 5-0 to silence the nay-sayers. The side looks balanced and dangerous
- Having lost so heavily interest in Dempsey is seemingly reignited. Rogers is told he needs to sell to get funds. Unfortunately Adam and Carroll are happy to sit on the bench on their extravogant salaries, rather than moving to play.
- Fulham complain to the FA about Liverpool's blatant tapping up. The world prays for a Roma-esque transfer embargo.

I'd personally be on the phone to Roma asking for a Stekelenburg - Dempsey swap...

[TonyGilroy]

That feels like it might well be very close to the truth.

[MJG]

Heres what I think has happened.

- End of season Dempsey tells Jol he wants to move to a CL side. The club agrees to sell Dempsey to one if a reasonable bid is received.
- Over the summer no bids are received. Dempsey looks at the PL's CL teams and realises that none want him.
- While away on USA duty, he is approached by Henry or another member of the FSG, who paint a magical and totally fictional vision of making Liverpool a super power again, and bringing CL football back to Anfield. They tell Dempsey that he will be signed.
- Dempsey comes back to Fulham spouting the news that the deal with Liverpool is done. Club is confused as they havent received a bid from Liverpool
- Someone at the FSG gets confused with the term "done deal" and posts a video on the website confirming Dempsey as a Liverpool player. Chaos breaks out
- Rodgers is given his budget for the season. He's already blown 9m on Borini (wtf!?), and wants to sign his man love, and massively over rated ineffectial midfielder Joe Allen from his former side. Spitting in the face of the agreement signed to not come in for Swansea players.
- Swansea play hardball over Allens valuation so Liverpool have to pay the buy out on his contract, a ludricus £15m. Visions of last years Henderson deal. This becomes the laughing stock of the transfer world.... until Sunderland bid 15m for Fletcher...
- Rodgers is compelled to talk about Clint Dempsey in interviews, saying he's someone they're interested in
- Rodgers realises that he's now blown his transfer budget for the year on 2 very average players, solving none of Liverpools problems. Liverpool continue the farsical transfer activity by claiming Daniel Agger is worth 25m... everyone laughs.
- Dempsey tells Jol that he's not committed to Fulham, so Jol does the only logical thing he can do and leaves his out of the squad. Dempsey remains under the illusion that he can move teams without a bid being received.
- Liverpool get taken apart by WBA. Agger gives a defensive masterclass on how not to defend, Joe Allen is totally ineffective in midfield, and the world forgot Borini was at the club let alone playing. Liverpool once again become a laughing stock by bringing on Crock Cole when losing 2-0 only to see Darren Anderton's clone do his hamstring for the 234th time in his career in under 10 minutes.
- Rodgers "who doesnt criticise referees" criticises the referee in time old Liverpool tradition to deflect the blame away from his side. Shockingly trying to get Martin Škrtel to play out from the back doesnt work, who could have guessed.
- On the same weekend, a Fulham side full of guile and confidence destroys Norwich 5-0 to silence the nay-sayers. The side looks balanced and dangerous
- Having lost so heavily interest in Dempsey is seemingly reignited. Rogers is told he needs to sell to get funds. Unfortunately Adam and Carroll are happy to sit on the bench on their extravogant salaries, rather than moving to play.
- Fulham complain to the FA about Liverpool's blatant tapping up. The world prays for a Roma-esque transfer embargo.

I'd personally be on the phone to Roma asking for a Stekelenburg - Dempsey swap...

I can't really fault any of that.  Close thread

[nose]

From where I sit I could see the Lew/Jol rift happen. Before and after newcastle half time their became a clear distance between them. it was confirmed by a friend who is closer to the club and he has usually been correct with ewhat he has told me.
Regarding what happened before and after bobby left. We started doing better when Hughes was restored to the central defence. That is what actually happened on the pitch that really counted, that is when we started to perfom.
I don't think bobby leaving had such a profound affect except Jol wanted him out so obviously it cleared the air. Jol has a track record, did you ever read what defoe said about him?

[Basil]

I reckon that is about the sum of it

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

Yep, that works  for me too...

[AlFayedsChequebook]

Heres what I think has happened.

- End of season Dempsey tells Jol he wants to move to a CL side. The club agrees to sell Dempsey to one if a reasonable bid is received.
- Over the summer no bids are received. Dempsey looks at the PL's CL teams and realises that none want him.
- While away on USA duty, he is approached by Henry or another member of the FSG, who paint a magical and totally fictional vision of making Liverpool a super power again, and bringing CL football back to Anfield. They tell Dempsey that he will be signed.
- Dempsey comes back to Fulham spouting the news that the deal with Liverpool is done. Club is confused as they havent received a bid from Liverpool
- Someone at the FSG gets confused with the term "done deal" and posts a video on the website confirming Dempsey as a Liverpool player. Chaos breaks out
- Rodgers is given his budget for the season. He's already blown 9m on Borini (wtf!?), and wants to sign his man love, and massively over rated ineffectial midfielder Joe Allen from his former side. Spitting in the face of the agreement signed to not come in for Swansea players.
- Swansea play hardball over Allens valuation so Liverpool have to pay the buy out on his contract, a ludricus £15m. Visions of last years Henderson deal. This becomes the laughing stock of the transfer world.... until Sunderland bid 15m for Fletcher...
- Rodgers is compelled to talk about Clint Dempsey in interviews, saying he's someone they're interested in
- Rodgers realises that he's now blown his transfer budget for the year on 2 very average players, solving none of Liverpools problems. Liverpool continue the farsical transfer activity by claiming Daniel Agger is worth 25m... everyone laughs.
- Dempsey tells Jol that he's not committed to Fulham, so Jol does the only logical thing he can do and leaves his out of the squad. Dempsey remains under the illusion that he can move teams without a bid being received.
- Liverpool get taken apart by WBA. Agger gives a defensive masterclass on how not to defend, Joe Allen is totally ineffective in midfield, and the world forgot Borini was at the club let alone playing. Liverpool once again become a laughing stock by bringing on Crock Cole when losing 2-0 only to see Darren Anderton's clone do his hamstring for the 234th time in his career in under 10 minutes.
- Rodgers "who doesnt criticise referees" criticises the referee in time old Liverpool tradition to deflect the blame away from his side. Shockingly trying to get Martin Škrtel to play out from the back doesnt work, who could have guessed.
- On the same weekend, a Fulham side full of guile and confidence destroys Norwich 5-0 to silence the nay-sayers. The side looks balanced and dangerous
- Having lost so heavily interest in Dempsey is seemingly reignited. Rogers is told he needs to sell to get funds. Unfortunately Adam and Carroll are happy to sit on the bench on their extravogant salaries, rather than moving to play.
- Fulham complain to the FA about Liverpool's blatant tapping up. The world prays for a Roma-esque transfer embargo.

I'd personally be on the phone to Roma asking for a Stekelenburg - Dempsey swap...

This sounds very believable.

That my be because I want this to be what has happened, but hey, I'll take it.

[supersub]

Could be right, though I suspect you missed out the bit that involves the agent talking to Liverpool FC and whispering in Dempsey's ear.

[White Noise]

Agree with all of that Ordar. I think one possible key factor is the American owners and their senior represenatatives working independently of the manager in engaging with Dempsey and his people.

[AlFayedsChequebook]

From where I sit I could see the Lew/Jol rift happen. Before and after newcastle half time their became a clear distance between them. it was confirmed by a friend who is closer to the club and he has usually been correct with ewhat he has told me.
Regarding what happened before and after bobby left. We started doing better when Hughes was restored to the central defence. That is what actually happened on the pitch that really counted, that is when we started to perfom.
I don't think bobby leaving had such a profound affect except Jol wanted him out so obviously it cleared the air. Jol has a track record, did you ever read what defoe said about him?

Absolute tosh.

The Pog coming in, being desperate to perform to get  a place at the Euros and scoring a load of goals was far more important. It also helped to have a player up top who was willing to do running and did not signal to come off when he could no longer be bothered.

The defence itself was much of a muchness with either Hughes or Senderos in it - the results do not differ with either alongside Hangeland.

Jol may have had issues with certain players in the past, and a new manager coming in will upset a few, but this line has been continously spouted as though it is gospel fact. The truth is, the team has done very well in a transition period and this would not be possible if Jol was quite the divisive figure people claim.

[PokerMatt]

Ordar has nailed it.

No need for anything else from me here!