When will Fulham be in financial trouble?

[Sector9]

What is happening with Fulhams debt? Are we going to be in trouble at some point,

I dont really understand it!

[FatFreddysCat]

No one understands it, but just enjoy it whilst it lasts, worst case scenario is we go into administration and get to play Rotherham and Lincoln again, i'm sure we wont be moaning about not being able to get tickets then.

[Teabag]

Seems pretty simple to me - MAF covers the losses. No doubt he has a holding company so the losses at Fulham are offset against profits from his other businesses thereby reducing the tax paid to HMRC. But he still has to put his hand in his pocket and we should forever be grateful to him.

[Aldo]

Seems pretty simple to me - MAF covers the losses. No doubt he has a holding company so the losses at Fulham are offset against profits from his other businesses thereby reducing the tax paid to HMRC. But he still has to put his hand in his pocket and we should forever be grateful to him.

But how much of the losses are covered by a loan?

[Teabag]

Seems pretty simple to me - MAF covers the losses. No doubt he has a holding company so the losses at Fulham are offset against profits from his other businesses thereby reducing the tax paid to HMRC. But he still has to put his hand in his pocket and we should forever be grateful to him.

But how much of the losses are covered by a loan?

All of it I expect. That's just an accounting requirement. But the loan can only be repaid if he sells the club.  How else could it be repaid? Not a problem IMO.

[Admin]

Relax - Every club in the Premiership has some kind of debt including ours. The media, F.A etc make such a big fuss about it that it drives me up the wall. I think Fulham's main core debt is around £180-190 million which is off-set again a company called Fulham Leisure & not the club itself. This was started up by Maf when he took over the club and something to do as to why the badge was changed. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

The club itslef makes a % loss each year (for arguments sake) £5 million etc depending on how poor we do with our budgit, leagues position, cup runs, ticket sales etc. This is always going to be a loss because we are competing in the Premiership, have to pay up to 50k wages, are not in the Championsins league/cup final(s) every year, hold 24,500 as apossed to other stadiums, never sell out (apart from the big 4) are not big on the merchandise side and are practially just...little old Fulham. BUT....

You will notice the club is doing a lot of work behind the scenes to make Fulham F.C become a financially, self supported club with in the Premership which gets better and better with each year that passes. We are concentrating on 'Yoof', keeping a stable wage structure, building slowly as a club and not doing it all at once that will get us in trouble (Hull, Pompy etc).

The good thing about us, is that we are run correctly from front to back so don't take notice of what you hear. Yes, we may be in debt but this is offset against that, that is offset against this, that is borrowed agaist that and that is owed from that.

Trust me, we are one of the better financially stable clubs in that division and will continue to be so until every other bugger has priced theirselves out of it. It will will go 'pop' at some stage but not FFC. Watch this space  :dft012:

[Aldo]

Will that affect our chances of qualifying for Europe in a couple of years?

[Admin]

Forgot to add, I think if Mo ever done a runner (which he won't) he can't sell the ground. Craven Cottage stays as it is and again, some reason to do with the badge change and not because Maf fancied to do it for a change (please correct me if I'm wrong something to do with the Borough of Fulham or Hammersmith council).

A new buyer (who ever) would have to purchase FFC along with the £180 - £190 million quid debt obviously Mo wouldn't be an idiot to do so plus the 7 million he paid for Fulham FC (say £200 million the going rate for a club now).

People say that Mo is skint which is also bull. OK, alot of that is tied up but Harrods alone I think is worth £200 billion plus and with familly assets thrown in, you are looking at a familly estate of over £700 billion. Nice to see one of his boys just join the board of directors might I add  :55:

[Admin]

Will that affect our chances of qualifying for Europe in a couple of years?

If that french pr1ck had his way, no club from England would be qualifying for Europe in a couple of years but on a serious note, it will affect all but most of the Prem teams so who cares. The way things go with finances, I'm sure a few bits will be swept here & there to make it look a bit tidy if needed. Worry not..

[Tom]

Will that affect our chances of qualifying for Europe in a couple of years?

If that french pr1ck had his way, no club from England would be qualifying for Europe in a couple of years but on a serious note, it will affect all but most of the Prem teams so who cares. The way things go with finances, I'm sure a few bits will be swept here & there to make it look a bit tidy if needed. Worry not..

+1, especially the french pr!ck comment. Bunch of ungrateful puss!es over there!

[Admin]

For the record Fulham lost:

£6.8m in 2009
£7.5m in 2008

and

£15.2m in 2007

(So you can see it is slowly being tackled and coming down)

Since Mohamed Fayed's takeover in 1997, Fulham have accumulated debts of £167.6m ?!?! Hmmm, this was more than that a few years back and I see figures of around the £190m mark so some have been paid up or paid back.

The thing is with the Europa league etc is that they will inforce the 'rule' straight away and won't take into consideration that Fulham have their finances in check and are doing something about it unlike clubs that are left to spiral such as Hull, Pompey etc.  :014:

That follow

[FatFreddysCat]

Forgot to add, I think if Mo ever done a runner (which he won't) he can't sell the ground. Craven Cottage stays as it is and again, some reason to do with the badge change and not because Maf fancied to do it for a change (please correct me if I'm wrong something to do with the Borough of Fulham or Hammersmith council).

A new buyer (who ever) would have to purchase FFC along with the £180 - £190 million quid debt obviously Mo wouldn't be an idiot to do so plus the 7 million he paid for Fulham FC (say £200 million the going rate for a club now).

People say that Mo is skint which is also bull. OK, alot of that is tied up but Harrods alone I think is worth £200 billion plus and with familly assets thrown in, you are looking at a familly estate of over £700 billion. Nice to see one of his boys just join the board of directors might I add  :55: Fecking hell scotty boy are you on the sauce? £700 billion? roughly 1 billion more like, but probably less since the recession, still not to be sniffed at.

[Admin]

Forgot to add, I think if Mo ever done a runner (which he won't) he can't sell the ground. Craven Cottage stays as it is and again, some reason to do with the badge change and not because Maf fancied to do it for a change (please correct me if I'm wrong something to do with the Borough of Fulham or Hammersmith council).

A new buyer (who ever) would have to purchase FFC along with the £180 - £190 million quid debt obviously Mo wouldn't be an idiot to do so plus the 7 million he paid for Fulham FC (say £200 million the going rate for a club now).

People say that Mo is skint which is also bull. OK, alot of that is tied up but Harrods alone I think is worth £200 billion plus and with familly assets thrown in, you are looking at a familly estate of over £700 billion. Nice to see one of his boys just join the board of directors might I add  :55: Fecking hell scotty boy are you on the sauce? £700 billion? roughly 1 billion more like, but probably less since the recession, still not to be sniffed at.

I heard that him & this familly all together are worth about 500 billion but I could be wrong. It's just what I heard.

[lamby]

I agree with the bits above about it not being real debt. It is owed to MAF, and owned by MAF. It does not have any interest repayments or any repayment schedules. So unlike ManU there is no interest generating debt spiral.

I think Fulham currently runs at a profit - but only if you take out the £5-£15m a year that we have used to either buy players or redevelop the stadium. MAF has been doing this every year since he bought Fulham. He has instructions that Roy can only buy a player if our income can support the increased wages.

SO, if MAF stepped away from the club today (and took his debt with him) the club would stand as a going concern - our income is greater than our outgoings. We just would have to be much more conservative on buying new players.

If new requirements came in about debt levels, then I am pretty sure MAF would right the debt off (i.e say he does not want it payed back) to the debt to the level required.

[Logicalman]

According to the Sunday Times Rich list for 2009, MaF (and family) is 63rd richest with around 655 M.

[Admin]

According to the Sunday Times Rich list for 2009, MaF (and family) is 63rd richest with around 655 M.

And you didn't add that his wealth has raised by 95m where as most has fallen due to this recesion.

[blingo]

Harrods alone had a price tag of 2B on it the other day and he also owns the Paris Ritz amongst other business interests. 655m looks pretty light to me and needs reviewing. Put another way, I dont think he will be sleeping under the arches at charring x somehow.
If it came to it, be sure that MAF will have a contingency plan in place to work around any financial problem that may arise. I honestly believe that we are in very safe hands.

[ron]

Thinking about Fulham's debt in terms of MAF's family fortune (according to the figures quoted...i.e £190M against £650B)...then it wouldn't represent much more to him than the fare to a Fulham home game for the rest of us........and as a bonus, he gets somewhere to relax on a Saturday afternoon...

[TonyGilroy]

MAF's financial health is vital for us.

His physical health too, of course, but at his age he will be well aware of his mortality. He may have made provisions for the club in the aftermath of his death or he may not. If not then the club will be one of his many assets for his heirs to either take over or sell.

The "debt" of, say, £175M is in fact what he has spent and has been expressed as debt presumably for good tax reasons. His real loss may be less than that but the money is due and owing yet unrecoverable in full because the club is worth far less than that.

In that context trying to pay back debt is a nonsense because, in effect (albeit through a web of companies) the creditor and debtor are the same.

For me the conclusion is simply that we should enjoy what we've got and hope for the best in the future. There is nothing we can do to improve the situation and MAF is not one to clarify his business affairs.

[White Noise]

Some basic figures showing how the clubs income has changed over recent years. Click on the blue text 'Fulham Supporters Trust' to read a document from a few years ago that looks at the ownership structure of the club, amongst other things. Also there are related Fulham finance new stories if you scroll down to the bottom of the page  -

http://www.footballeconomy.com/content/fulham-football-club-1987-ltd-fulham-football-leisure-ltd


Last set of accounts reported on -

http://www.footballeconomy.com/content/fulham-fc-cut-losses

Also the analysis of Fulham's accounts done by b+w geezer back in 2007 -

http://cravencottagenewsround.wordpress.com/category/fulham-finances/