good Article on jol and ruiz

[Twig]

The article  we are debating was not an attack on Ruiz but a reasonable, if opinion based, write up on the team and its performances. it has morphed into a Ruiz debate.

Regards Ruiz, i see all the positives but for me he gets caught in posession too often - simple no?

[Bassey the warrior]

But Ruiz can tackle, last season he had one of the highest success rates on the team. He can and does defend, too much if anything. He's been played out of position, it's as simple as that.

I thought last season that ruiz made an impressive number of interceptions, that is not the same as tackling, I can't recall ruiz ever making, what any ofus that have ever played and/or watched, would call a tackle . In fact I did notice interceptions was something he was quite good at, but it was what he did with the ball after the he got it that was at issue.

I actually do not think ruiz is played out of position, he may not always play his best role but heis situated in the team in a position that should suit his style and that in the pre-season friendlies he seemed to do quite well in. What i think is that Ruiz is not of the necessary standard to play in the Premiership, after two seasons + we wouldn't still be having this debate, the crowd reaction to his withdrawal at the weekend, if he was.

I have to agree with Moose on this one.  Not only is he being played out of position he is being asked to zone mark.  He is clearly not comfortable with the situation.

i understand the argument,  but for a player of his 'supposed' ability he should be well capable of making an impression. Actually 'zone marking' if I understand you properly is what any forward/ offensive midfielder has to do all the time, it is also denying space, forcing a player in posseion to go in the direction you want rather than where they want, it is actually one of the easiest things to do, man marking is much harder because the second you delay or are not in a position so to do you cost the team.

What position should ruiz play?

Deep lying forward, like Rooney. He's a good finisher and always has the ability to split a defence. He is always most effective in the final third as he likes to play killer passes. The deeper he plays the less dangerous he becomes until he actually becomes a liability.
We should change from  a 4-4-1-1 to a 4-2-3-1. That way Ruiz will have three options to pass to (wingers and striker) rather than just the striker. The likes of Riether and Richardson will also provide an option.

[Bassey the warrior]

But Ruiz can tackle, last season he had one of the highest success rates on the team. He can and does defend, too much if anything. He's been played out of position, it's as simple as that.

I thought last season that ruiz made an impressive number of interceptions, that is not the same as tackling, I can't recall ruiz ever making, what any ofus that have ever played and/or watched, would call a tackle . In fact I did notice interceptions was something he was quite good at, but it was what he did with the ball after the he got it that was at issue.

I actually do not think ruiz is played out of position, he may not always play his best role but heis situated in the team in a position that should suit his style and that in the pre-season friendlies he seemed to do quite well in. What i think is that Ruiz is not of the necessary standard to play in the Premiership, after two seasons + we wouldn't still be having this debate, the crowd reaction to his withdrawal at the weekend, if he was.

Not slide tackle but tackles yes.

sorry, I am not being funny or difficult but a tackle is dispossessing a player in possession, ruiz does not do that, I do not think he has ever done that.
But intercepting passes between players or nicking a miscontrolled ball that has run away he does do. That is not tackling. it never has been.
I thought the statistic last season that ruiz showed well on was interceptions.

Yes I know and yes he does. He mat well do well at interceptions but that stat was specifically for tackles.
He's not going as well this season, then again neither is Sascha.

[Berbasilk_111]

I don't know what some of you lot expect;there is no movement off the ball at all from any of our players when Ruiz has the ball. He is a positive player, and will look to play the ball forward at every opportunity possible (unlike a certain mr sidwell), however some players just don't make themselves available and find space; there are not many players who, when ahead of Ruiz, try to help him out by making runs so that he could exploit the gaps in defense. Hence he holds the ball, maybe even dwells on it a little, because he is looking to make that incisive pass that will lead to a goal, this is not a problem of Ruiz, but more of a problem of how Jol has set the team up. His contribution to the team could be so much more if the team implement the right attacking mentality from which, not only him, but most of our players will flourish from.

[Forever Fulham]

Berbasilk, Nose's hypothesis is that Ruiz doesn't immediately look to make that incisive pass.  Rather, "his first instinct is to turn, not to look for a pass, even when relatively deep and surrounded by his own players he doesn't release the ball quickly. He always (alright nearly always) turns, usually using the outside of his foot, this way, then the other and often a third time, before he finally raises up his head to look for a pass, or too see if their is space to attack into, which because of all his messing about generally there is not."  That's either true or not.  Both of you can't be right here.  Nose claims Ruiz keeps his head down a little too long, takes a few too many moves with the ball BEFORE he finally lifts his head and looks about.  You, however, are claiming he is initially looking about with the ball but doesn't see anyone open (in an advanceable position) to whom he can pass, so he gets caught in a vice.  I fall in your camp, but I need to watch him more closely to see if there is merit in Nose's argument--head down/too many moves before finally looking up.   

[Bassey the warrior]

Berbasilk, Nose's hypothesis is that Ruiz doesn't immediately look to make that incisive pass.  Rather, "his first instinct is to turn, not to look for a pass, even when relatively deep and surrounded by his own players he doesn't release the ball quickly. He always (alright nearly always) turns, usually using the outside of his foot, this way, then the other and often a third time, before he finally raises up his head to look for a pass, or too see if their is space to attack into, which because of all his messing about generally there is not."  That's either true or not.  Both of you can't be right here.  Nose claims Ruiz keeps his head down a little too long, takes a few too many moves with the ball BEFORE he finally lifts his head and looks about.  You, however, are claiming he is initially looking about with the ball but doesn't see anyone open (in an advanceable position) to whom he can pass, so he gets caught in a vice.  I fall in your camp, but I need to watch him more closely to see if there is merit in Nose's argument--head down/too many moves before finally looking up.   

He does take a bit too long but even if he didn't the fact is there's no off the ball movement so no passes on.

[grandad]

I'm sorry but, I can't agree. This is a terrible article.

It's not objective at all and it doesn't inform anyone of anything.

It reads like what it is.....the beginning post in a message board thread.

:plus one:
I gather he does not like Ruiz or Jol.

[nose]

OK, Nose, I not ready to retract my opinion, but I'll watch Ruiz more closely, looking for the self-defeating habits in which you claim he routinely engages.

i don't expect you to change, actually i just like to discuss football or the players in the games we watch, with a bit more of a 'technical edge' than the normal he is brilliant/hopeless arguments with no back up. i am truly interested in what others see and i don't, i might be misjudging the lad! he may well play better used differently, i personally don't think so but if it is possible for him to flourish witha tactical switch then jol should make it so!

[nose]

Berbasilk, Nose's hypothesis is that Ruiz doesn't immediately look to make that incisive pass.  Rather, "his first instinct is to turn, not to look for a pass, even when relatively deep and surrounded by his own players he doesn't release the ball quickly. He always (alright nearly always) turns, usually using the outside of his foot, this way, then the other and often a third time, before he finally raises up his head to look for a pass, or too see if their is space to attack into, which because of all his messing about generally there is not."  That's either true or not.  Both of you can't be right here.  Nose claims Ruiz keeps his head down a little too long, takes a few too many moves with the ball BEFORE he finally lifts his head and looks about.  You, however, are claiming he is initially looking about with the ball but doesn't see anyone open (in an advanceable position) to whom he can pass, so he gets caught in a vice.  I fall in your camp, but I need to watch him more closely to see if there is merit in Nose's argument--head down/too many moves before finally looking up.   

He does take a bit too long but even if he didn't the fact is there's no off the ball movement so no passes on.

i totally agree but feel it's the same for all the team and i can't see that ruiz contributes anything special'

on a non football related matter, moose are amongst my favourite creatures so no matter whether we agree or disagree about football, i am always pleased when you post!!! just thought i should let you know there is life outside football.

[WolverineFFC]

I'm sorry but, I can't agree. This is a terrible article.

It's not objective at all and it doesn't inform anyone of anything.

It reads like what it is.....the beginning post in a message board thread.

I agree, you are correct it reads like a MB post and is not objective in that the author has expressed an opinion rather than a balanced view detailing the good points of Martin Jol. It's just there isn't very much to say about what is good about Jol's tenure at Fulham, it has been a negative gradient decline from day one and some of us would say exhibiting an inverse square characteristic, in other words, getting worse faster as you go along.

I agree that there isn't much apparent to use to defend our performances under Jol or his performance (recruiting maybe?). I was only commenting on the article itself. I entered the thread because of the title, obviously. I was hoping for something informative and objective to sink my teeth into. What I got was disappointing.

The only thing I can say about Jol and this team is that I'd love to see what a run of several games with the same starting eleven would do for our performance. I might lose but I'd bet that we haven't had the same starting eleven for two games in a row this season. That can't be helping matters. A lot of that comes down to our transfer policy (bringing in good but unfit players and older players whose bodies are holding up as well as they used to).

Same starting 11??? I'd settle for the same starting back line in the same starting positions for more than a game or two at a time.

No wonder they can never hold a consistent defensive line when you have different teammates standing next to you each and every game.

I haven't counted, but the number of different starting back line combinations for this season has to be in double digits by now.

[Bassey the warrior]

I'm sorry but, I can't agree. This is a terrible article.

It's not objective at all and it doesn't inform anyone of anything.

It reads like what it is.....the beginning post in a message board thread.

I agree, you are correct it reads like a MB post and is not objective in that the author has expressed an opinion rather than a balanced view detailing the good points of Martin Jol. It's just there isn't very much to say about what is good about Jol's tenure at Fulham, it has been a negative gradient decline from day one and some of us would say exhibiting an inverse square characteristic, in other words, getting worse faster as you go along.

I agree that there isn't much apparent to use to defend our performances under Jol or his performance (recruiting maybe?). I was only commenting on the article itself. I entered the thread because of the title, obviously. I was hoping for something informative and objective to sink my teeth into. What I got was disappointing.

The only thing I can say about Jol and this team is that I'd love to see what a run of several games with the same starting eleven would do for our performance. I might lose but I'd bet that we haven't had the same starting eleven for two games in a row this season. That can't be helping matters. A lot of that comes down to our transfer policy (bringing in good but unfit players and older players whose bodies are holding up as well as they used to).

Same starting 11??? I'd settle for the same starting back line in the same starting positions for more than a game or two at a time.

No wonder they can never hold a consistent defensive line when you have different teammates standing next to you each and every game.

I haven't counted, but the number of different starting back line combinations for this season has to be in double digits by now.

Unless I'm mistaken we kept the same starting eleven against Southampton and Palace. Wrongly in my opinion as we got hammered in midfield against Southampton.