good Article on jol and ruiz

[Zu-Meister]

Fulham FanZoner Andy Lye has questioned some of Martin Jol's decision making as the Cottagers' disappointing start to the season continues.

Losing to Manchester United is not a problem. On any given day, everyone loses to Manchester United, and those days are more common for the likes of us than they are for some others. It's no shame to be beaten by a team boasting the kind of players they've got.

There is, however, a great deal of potential for shame in the way you go about

at least trying to stop them winning. We can blame other things as much as we want - referee Lee Probert mothering every United player to fall over, and a linesman at the Hammersmith End who doesn't actually know the offside rule, didn't help - but the fact of the matter is that our first half performance was shameful. Scott Parker 0, United 3 was a fair half-time score line given the application of both teams.

We rallied a bit in the second half once the team on the field was the team which should have started the game, but when the biggest cheer from the home crowd was not for Alex Kacaniklic's deflected consolation goal, but for the removal of Bryan Ruiz, it should be obvious to all that something is wrong with the way we're going about our games.

Apparently that's not so obvious to Martin Jol, who could have gotten away this week with saying we weren't good enough to beat the nation's most successful club, and left it at that. He could right now have been enjoying a week where he doesn't look like a deluded fool, even if he did make foolish decisions on Saturday like throwing fit-again Ashkan Dejagah straight back into the starting 11 after he hasn't made a first team appearance in over two months (no surprise, he tried hard but lacked sharpness).

But no, he couldn't just leave it be, because you can't be saying bad words about Bryan Ruiz when Martin's around. Oh no. He had this to say, "It was very disappointing. That is something I can cope with because I know football. Bryan is a player that came back from Costa Rica's game against Mexico; he scored, they won 2-1 and he goes to the World Cup. Then to come here and get that sort of contradiction: over there he is a hero and here they boo him off the park. I said he is arguably my best player and that he should know that."

I genuinely have no doubt Bryan is a very nice guy, but the complaints everyone has are not in the spirit of putting down a player out of form. It's Martin Jol who needs to get the message that no player should be an automatic choice in their position and it's down to him to drop those who aren't performing. His continued backing of someone who can't tackle, can't head, can't protect the ball, doesn't defend, frequently passes to the opposition, and doesn't actually create very much is inexcusable. How a man who "knows football" can't see the difference between Costa Rica's international games and the Premier League is bewildering.

To go on and say he's our best player is idiocy. Say it to the player to give him some confidence by all means, but don't try to hoodwink everyone else. Not to mention the demoralising effect a statement like that can have on other players who put in good performances themselves and have to watch Ruiz make mistake after mistake.

On other matters, he continues to say he doesn't fear for his job, and doesn't feel under pressure. Well, he's got to say that (although I can't help but feel the reason he doesn't feel under pressure is because he doesn't actually care about the fortunes of our club, and because Shahid Kahn is never around to put any pressure on him in the first place), but what he seems to be missing is why the fans are so unhappy with him.

He keeps pointing to the fact that we're still above other teams, or that the points in the league are still very tight, as his arguments because he thinks we're all the kind of armchair fans who can only measure the situation in terms of league position, but we're not falling for it. Especially when he so often tries to back them up with references to how great his previous record was and how much other clubs love him (I highly doubt anyone has ever said "never fear, Martin is here".)

It would be nice if he gave the fans a little more credit. If we were playing really well, and losing, we'd be OK with that, because we'd see the potential for the wins to come, perhaps with a bit more luck. But nothing we are doing on the pitch is convincing the fans that the team are actually capable of improving our fortunes. At least, not with Jol in charge.

Let's not forget there are a lot of players who were here last year, who were good professionals, and who this year can't string a coherent performance together. They haven't all, at the same time, become significantly worse players. Even Ruiz hasn't. It can only be the coaching and tactics, or lack thereof as dictated by the manager.

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/15164/9011916/Time-for-Jol-to-make-tough-decisions

[Bassey the warrior]

But Ruiz can tackle, last season he had one of the highest success rates on the team. He can and does defend, too much if anything. He's been played out of position, it's as simple as that.

[nose]

But Ruiz can tackle, last season he had one of the highest success rates on the team. He can and does defend, too much if anything. He's been played out of position, it's as simple as that.

I thought last season that ruiz made an impressive number of interceptions, that is not the same as tackling, I can't recall ruiz ever making, what any ofus that have ever played and/or watched, would call a tackle . In fact I did notice interceptions was something he was quite good at, but it was what he did with the ball after the he got it that was at issue.

I actually do not think ruiz is played out of position, he may not always play his best role but heis situated in the team in a position that should suit his style and that in the pre-season friendlies he seemed to do quite well in. What i think is that Ruiz is not of the necessary standard to play in the Premiership, after two seasons + we wouldn't still be having this debate, the crowd reaction to his withdrawal at the weekend, if he was.

[The Old Count]

But Ruiz can tackle, last season he had one of the highest success rates on the team. He can and does defend, too much if anything. He's been played out of position, it's as simple as that.

I thought last season that ruiz made an impressive number of interceptions, that is not the same as tackling, I can't recall ruiz ever making, what any ofus that have ever played and/or watched, would call a tackle . In fact I did notice interceptions was something he was quite good at, but it was what he did with the ball after the he got it that was at issue.

I actually do not think ruiz is played out of position, he may not always play his best role but heis situated in the team in a position that should suit his style and that in the pre-season friendlies he seemed to do quite well in. What i think is that Ruiz is not of the necessary standard to play in the Premiership, after two seasons + we wouldn't still be having this debate, the crowd reaction to his withdrawal at the weekend, if he was.

I have to agree with Moose on this one.  Not only is he being played out of position he is being asked to zone mark.  He is clearly not comfortable with the situation.

[Bassey the warrior]

But Ruiz can tackle, last season he had one of the highest success rates on the team. He can and does defend, too much if anything. He's been played out of position, it's as simple as that.

I thought last season that ruiz made an impressive number of interceptions, that is not the same as tackling, I can't recall ruiz ever making, what any ofus that have ever played and/or watched, would call a tackle . In fact I did notice interceptions was something he was quite good at, but it was what he did with the ball after the he got it that was at issue.

I actually do not think ruiz is played out of position, he may not always play his best role but heis situated in the team in a position that should suit his style and that in the pre-season friendlies he seemed to do quite well in. What i think is that Ruiz is not of the necessary standard to play in the Premiership, after two seasons + we wouldn't still be having this debate, the crowd reaction to his withdrawal at the weekend, if he was.

Not slide tackle but tackles yes.

[nose]

But Ruiz can tackle, last season he had one of the highest success rates on the team. He can and does defend, too much if anything. He's been played out of position, it's as simple as that.

I thought last season that ruiz made an impressive number of interceptions, that is not the same as tackling, I can't recall ruiz ever making, what any ofus that have ever played and/or watched, would call a tackle . In fact I did notice interceptions was something he was quite good at, but it was what he did with the ball after the he got it that was at issue.

I actually do not think ruiz is played out of position, he may not always play his best role but heis situated in the team in a position that should suit his style and that in the pre-season friendlies he seemed to do quite well in. What i think is that Ruiz is not of the necessary standard to play in the Premiership, after two seasons + we wouldn't still be having this debate, the crowd reaction to his withdrawal at the weekend, if he was.

I have to agree with Moose on this one.  Not only is he being played out of position he is being asked to zone mark.  He is clearly not comfortable with the situation.

i understand the argument,  but for a player of his 'supposed' ability he should be well capable of making an impression. Actually 'zone marking' if I understand you properly is what any forward/ offensive midfielder has to do all the time, it is also denying space, forcing a player in posseion to go in the direction you want rather than where they want, it is actually one of the easiest things to do, man marking is much harder because the second you delay or are not in a position so to do you cost the team.

What position should ruiz play?

[nose]

But Ruiz can tackle, last season he had one of the highest success rates on the team. He can and does defend, too much if anything. He's been played out of position, it's as simple as that.

I thought last season that ruiz made an impressive number of interceptions, that is not the same as tackling, I can't recall ruiz ever making, what any ofus that have ever played and/or watched, would call a tackle . In fact I did notice interceptions was something he was quite good at, but it was what he did with the ball after the he got it that was at issue.

I actually do not think ruiz is played out of position, he may not always play his best role but heis situated in the team in a position that should suit his style and that in the pre-season friendlies he seemed to do quite well in. What i think is that Ruiz is not of the necessary standard to play in the Premiership, after two seasons + we wouldn't still be having this debate, the crowd reaction to his withdrawal at the weekend, if he was.

Not slide tackle but tackles yes.

sorry, I am not being funny or difficult but a tackle is dispossessing a player in possession, ruiz does not do that, I do not think he has ever done that.
But intercepting passes between players or nicking a miscontrolled ball that has run away he does do. That is not tackling. it never has been.
I thought the statistic last season that ruiz showed well on was interceptions.

[ToodlesMcToot]

I'm sorry but, I can't agree. This is a terrible article.

It's not objective at all and it doesn't inform anyone of anything.

It reads like what it is.....the beginning post in a message board thread.

[epsomraver]

his problem is that when he gets the ball, he looks up , sees Berbatov offside, cannot move the ball forward, looks for alternatives, gets caught in possession and gets crowd on his back, seen it so many times, try watching the game off the ball and it will become noticeable, I think , played in the right role he is a very good player.

[nose]

I'm sorry but, I can't agree. This is a terrible article.

It's not objective at all and it doesn't inform anyone of anything.

It reads like what it is.....the beginning post in a message board thread.

I agree, you are correct it reads like a MB post and is not objective in that the author has expressed an opinion rather than a balanced view detailing the good points of Martin Jol. It's just there isn't very much to say about what is good about Jol's tenure at Fulham, it has been a negative gradient decline from day one and some of us would say exhibiting an inverse square characteristic, in other words, getting worse faster as you go along.

[nose]

his problem is that when he gets the ball, he looks up , sees Berbatov offside, cannot move the ball forward, looks for alternatives, gets caught in possession and gets crowd on his back, seen it so many times, try watching the game off the ball and it will become noticeable, I think , played in the right role he is a very good player.

again i ask (not of you of others), what do you think his position/role  should be?

[epsomraver]

no 10 just behind a decent striker who he can feed the ball to

[nose]

no 10 just behind a decent striker who he can feed the ball to

so where do you think he plays at the momet? what was his role V man utd. I thought he was the center of three players with kasami and dejagah the other, isn't that the same? Or do you think he should be pushed further forward?
In actuality, either way the position he played V man Utd I would have thought should have suited him as sidwell and parker had to do the donkey and defensive work and ruiz could 'float a bit.' It seems to me in the pre-season and for costa rica he has more time but in the premiership, the game passes him by and when he is in possesion he takes to long and I don't think even as a classic No 10, if I understandf that correctly (perhaps like gera) he dwells too long on the ball.

[ToodlesMcToot]

I'm sorry but, I can't agree. This is a terrible article.

It's not objective at all and it doesn't inform anyone of anything.

It reads like what it is.....the beginning post in a message board thread.

I agree, you are correct it reads like a MB post and is not objective in that the author has expressed an opinion rather than a balanced view detailing the good points of Martin Jol. It's just there isn't very much to say about what is good about Jol's tenure at Fulham, it has been a negative gradient decline from day one and some of us would say exhibiting an inverse square characteristic, in other words, getting worse faster as you go along.

I agree that there isn't much apparent to use to defend our performances under Jol or his performance (recruiting maybe?). I was only commenting on the article itself. I entered the thread because of the title, obviously. I was hoping for something informative and objective to sink my teeth into. What I got was disappointing.

The only thing I can say about Jol and this team is that I'd love to see what a run of several games with the same starting eleven would do for our performance. I might lose but I'd bet that we haven't had the same starting eleven for two games in a row this season. That can't be helping matters. A lot of that comes down to our transfer policy (bringing in good but unfit players and older players whose bodies are holding up as well as they used to).

[Forever Fulham]

I agree with Moose.  He's not playing his natural position.  And when he looks up with the ball and sees NO ONE in position to receive a pass, with defenders closing in on him, his options are a bit limited.  The Costa Rican team is a study in fluid movement, with players constantly showing for the ball.  There is almost always a Costa Rican teammate within 10 yards, open, tracking the ball carrier, waiting for the pass.  They ping it about.  They work to get open, to not leave the man with the ball stranded.  Now, juxtapose that with Fulham's lazier style of current play.  I'm getting fed up.  The game is in large part won or lost by teammates who don't have the ball.

[callumc513]

his problem is that when he gets the ball, he looks up , sees Berbatov offside, cannot move the ball forward, looks for alternatives, gets caught in possession and gets crowd on his back, seen it so many times, try watching the game off the ball and it will become noticeable, I think , played in the right role he is a very good player.

Whilst I mainly agree, I'm not sure that a lack of movement from Berba is the main issue here. Surely in the formation Jol is attempting to implement  we need good, diagonal movement from the wingers (essentially acting as inside forwards.) Without the threat of wingers moving inside and fullbacks overlapping, Ruiz and Berba will always be caught with nowhere to go and the former especially is likely to be pushed off the ball.

[nose]

I agree with Moose.  He's not playing his natural position.  And when he looks up with the ball and sees NO ONE in position to receive a pass, with defenders closing in on him, his options are a bit limited.  The Costa Rican team is a study in fluid movement, with players constantly showing for the ball.  There is almost always a Costa Rican teammate within 10 yards, open, tracking the ball carrier, waiting for the pass.  They ping it about.  They work to get open, to not leave the man with the ball stranded.  Now, juxtapose that with Fulham's lazier style of current play.  I'm getting fed up.  The game is in large part won or lost by teammates who don't have the ball.

I understand the argument but do not think that is what is wrong with ruiz. when ruiz has the ball his first instinct is to turn, not to look for a pass, even when relatively deep and surrounded by his own players he doesn't release the ball quickly. He always (alright nearly always) turns, usually using the outside of his foot, this way, then the other and often a third time, before he finally raises up his head to look for a pass, or too see if their is space to attack into, which because of all his messing about generally there is not.  
If there was more movement in the rest of the team then clearly it would be beetr for everyone but Ruiz's lack of impact is not a function of his team mates, kasami has been really impressive this season just from his own self starting dynamism and he has the same team mates. Epsom raver thinks he should be a more classic No 10 but he isn't far off that now and if he were really any good, far more people would have spotted it, don't you think?

Somebody previously had a bit of a go at me because i am always critising particularly ruiz. I do so because I think he is undroppable (the manager favours him over all others) and as such demotivates the team and blocks the chances for others. If nothing eklse he deserves a spell on the bench, just as berba does. let them fight for their places, properly like the others. And actually i really do believe that but for the price tag ruiz would have been on loan in the lower leagues ages ago.

[nose]

his problem is that when he gets the ball, he looks up , sees Berbatov offside, cannot move the ball forward, looks for alternatives, gets caught in possession and gets crowd on his back, seen it so many times, try watching the game off the ball and it will become noticeable, I think , played in the right role he is a very good player.

Whilst I mainly agree, I'm not sure that a lack of movement from Berba is the main issue here. Surely in the formation Jol is attempting to implement  we need good, diagonal movement from the wingers (essentially acting as inside forwards.) Without the threat of wingers moving inside and fullbacks overlapping, Ruiz and Berba will always be caught with nowhere to go and the former especially is likely to be pushed off the ball.

this is true but when bnerba plays you can see he is usually  a genius one of the most talented/gifted players we have ever had on the ball (i know he has not been quite so hot this season so far). his touch, his vision, his ability to pick a pass, his willingness to play the easy ball, his willingness to move the ball quickly. That is berba, and because he is so obviously gifted he is given a little leeway. He is also lazy and sulky, i know that too. Ruiz is nowhere near that class and in two + years has hardly made an impact.

[Forever Fulham]

OK, Nose, I not ready to retract my opinion, but I'll watch Ruiz more closely, looking for the self-defeating habits in which you claim he routinely engages.

[Shredhead]

I agree with Moose.  He's not playing his natural position.  And when he looks up with the ball and sees NO ONE in position to receive a pass, with defenders closing in on him, his options are a bit limited.  The Costa Rican team is a study in fluid movement, with players constantly showing for the ball.  There is almost always a Costa Rican teammate within 10 yards, open, tracking the ball carrier, waiting for the pass.  They ping it about.  They work to get open, to not leave the man with the ball stranded.  Now, juxtapose that with Fulham's lazier style of current play.  I'm getting fed up.  The game is in large part won or lost by teammates who don't have the ball.

I understand the argument but do not think that is what is wrong with ruiz. when ruiz has the ball his first instinct is to turn, not to look for a pass, even when relatively deep and surrounded by his own players he doesn't release the ball quickly. He always (alright nearly always) turns, usually using the outside of his foot, this way, then the other and often a third time, before he finally raises up his head to look for a pass, or too see if their is space to attack into, which because of all his messing about generally there is not. 
If there was more movement in the rest of the team then clearly it would be beetr for everyone but Ruiz's lack of impact is not a function of his team mates, kasami has been really impressive this season just from his own self starting dynamism and he has the same team mates. Epsom raver thinks he should be a more classic No 10 but he isn't far off that now and if he were really any good, far more people would have spotted it, don't you think?

Somebody previously had a bit of a go at me because i am always critising particularly ruiz. I do so because I think he is undroppable (the manager favours him over all others) and as such demotivates the team and blocks the chances for others. If nothing eklse he deserves a spell on the bench, just as berba does. let them fight for their places, properly like the others. And actually i really do believe that but for the price tag ruiz would have been on loan in the lower leagues ages ago.

I agree with Moose.  He's not playing his natural position.  And when he looks up with the ball and sees NO ONE in position to receive a pass, with defenders closing in on him, his options are a bit limited.  The Costa Rican team is a study in fluid movement, with players constantly showing for the ball.  There is almost always a Costa Rican teammate within 10 yards, open, tracking the ball carrier, waiting for the pass.  They ping it about.  They work to get open, to not leave the man with the ball stranded.  Now, juxtapose that with Fulham's lazier style of current play.  I'm getting fed up.  The game is in large part won or lost by teammates who don't have the ball.

I understand the argument but do not think that is what is wrong with ruiz. when ruiz has the ball his first instinct is to turn, not to look for a pass, even when relatively deep and surrounded by his own players he doesn't release the ball quickly. He always (alright nearly always) turns, usually using the outside of his foot, this way, then the other and often a third time, before he finally raises up his head to look for a pass, or too see if their is space to attack into, which because of all his messing about generally there is not. 
If there was more movement in the rest of the team then clearly it would be beetr for everyone but Ruiz's lack of impact is not a function of his team mates, kasami has been really impressive this season just from his own self starting dynamism and he has the same team mates. Epsom raver thinks he should be a more classic No 10 but he isn't far off that now and if he were really any good, far more people would have spotted it, don't you think?

Somebody previously had a bit of a go at me because i am always critising particularly ruiz. I do so because I think he is undroppable (the manager favours him over all others) and as such demotivates the team and blocks the chances for others. If nothing eklse he deserves a spell on the bench, just as berba does. let them fight for their places, properly like the others. And actually i really do believe that but for the price tag ruiz would have been on loan in the lower leagues ages ago.

Excellent post that sums up what I've been thinking but unable to express. We need a new system and Jol can't or won't see it.