On the other hand

[HatterDon]

I've posed this argument on other sites, but I don't remember if I've spelled it out here. So, here goes:

The BIGGEST reason why Magath shouldn't be fired now is that the new manager will have to inherit a squad he had no voice in building. It would repeat the disastrous mistake made in allowing Rene to rebuild the squad in January and then have Magath try to deal with new players -- most of whom he clearly did not want. And I'm sure that he couldn't have been thrilled that two of the only three experienced center backs on the squad had been allowed to leave leaving the weakest part of the team even weaker.

Any manager who comes here in September will have to produce results from a squad that he is not invested in. How did that work for Magath in January? No, you fire a manager in November -- like Sanchez -- and give your manager a month to run the rule over what's there and make his shopping list. Firing a manager three weeks after the end of the transfer period is the mark of a panicking, incompetent board. Hiring a manager under those circumstances ties his hands.

Look, we are NOT going to be relegated -- not in a league that contains Blackpool, Birmingham City, and Leeds -- and we were NEVER going to be promoted this season, not after such a radical restructuring of the first-team squad. We've seen extended glimpses of quality football. Magath should stay in charge until mid-November at the very earliest to show that there can be points resulting from that attractive football. If he fails; if his squad doesn't have the structure, personnel or leadership to succeed, then you sack him. And THEN the new boss will come in with the knowledge and expectation that he can build his own squad in January, and right the ship the way that Roy did.

Yes, I know, I'm an idiot.

[Holders]

No, you're not an idiot. It's actually a fair analysis and brave of you to state it.

We do not know the facts to the background to this - whether FM has lost the dressing room or generally alienated himself as has been suggested. We also don't know how much longer one point can be tolerated - by the fans and Khan, who will surely be influenced to some extent by growing general feeling.

[GloucesterWhite]

The flaw in your argument in my opinion is that we can get rid of Magath and replace him with Kit Symons. As much of the current first team squad has come up from the academy Kit knows them and they know him. In fact Kit probably knows more, and has experience of working with more of the first team squad than Magath does.

[Fulham1959]

The flaw in your argument in my opinion is that we can get rid of Magath and replace him with Kit Symons. As much of the current first team squad has come up from the academy Kit knows them and they know him. In fact Kit probably knows more, and has experience of working with more of the first team squad than Magath does.

:plus one:

[Rupert]

Very good points there, from all of you. The only issue with appointing Kit is he has not done the job (first team coach) before. He may turn out to be the new Mickey Adams, or he could be the new Paul Bracewell. It is a risk, and does smack of panic. I am not convinced by Felix, but HD may well be right to give him a little extra time to prove either the doubters or the optimists right.

[Snibbo]

I've been trying hard to keep the faith with Felix and I want him to succeed. I think he's done a lot of things that had to be done, and got rid of pretty much all the players that needed to be got rid of. And he's brought in a lot of good players, and at times we have looked very good. Like the lamentable Sanchez, he's also had some serious bad luck, none more so than Smith getting sent off in his first match.

But I'm at the tipping point. I was expecting a decent performance and a win against Reading. I fear we will get unmercifully clobbered by Forest.

HD is right to say that it's not a good time to bring in a new manager. On the other hand you could argue that it gives the new man even more time to assess his current squad before the next transfer window. And if Felix is the problem, why do we need a load of new players anyway - we've clearly got some great talent in the current squad. Don't we just need an organiser a la Roy?

My other worry is that maybe the problem is deeper than just Felix. Three managers in a row have failed. Is there something more systemic that's wrong. What about MacIntosh? Who made that decision to buy Mitroglou - the one decision that probably got us relegated. What is the dynamic in the club between manager, CEO and owner? Will bringing in yet another manager just leave the same rotten system in place?

[Canary White]

I agree with the OP, although the nearer we get to that time (November) without turning things around, the greater the pressure will get, and I do sympathise with the argument that if in our next 2/3 games we go back to looking out of our depth like we did against Derby and Wolves, then the pressure on Felix will be irresistible.

[Fulham76]

You say we will not be relegated but there is a very real chance we could be relegated. As things stand, we are the worst team in the league - no wins, most losses, fewest goals scored, horrible record all round.

The benefit of sacking Magath now is the new man might actually be reasonably sensible & stick with our best team, not chopping & changing every 5 minutes. Why have we used 3 goalkeepers already this season & about 30 different players? We're only 6 games in to a new season! It doesn't help player confidence or help the new players gel.

The new guy might actually play the players in their correct positions as well. No more Burn at left or right back, no more McCormack on the wing, Hoogland in midfield??

The most sensible thing would be to change manager & change NOW.

[Skatzoffc]

Lots of good points on here from all.

I too am at a tipping point.
I thought we'd get a result against an average Reading team, but you can't legislate for 70 mins with 10 men.

After the expected slaughter from Forest I think we have 3 games we can get points from.

I always said it would be a mid-table finish after the colossal change in personnel. I still believe that is possible
just not sure it's with this manager. It is still early days. 3-6 points moves us up the table quite a way but if we are
adrift this will be a struggle for our young side.

I believe he has lost the players and I worry for the youngsters the longer this continues.
The team looked lost on Saturday at Reading way before the goal and the sending off imo.

They also looked upset after the game at our end and I feel it will be difficult to lift them.

We must try tho.
COYW!

[SKSW6]

I don't think there's any way we could go on another 2 months with him in charge. The atmosphere at Reading was vile with most of the second half devoted to "Felix out" chants. I don't agree that there have really been extended glimpses of quality football. By my reckoning, we've only dominated one half of football out of 14 halves, the first half against Cardiff. Whereas we've regularly been outplayed. There are just too few promising signs to me to believe Felix is the way forward. That's purely from a footballing perspective, not even taking into account squad selections, freezing players out, off-the-field stuff like rumours into academy meddling, alienating others at the club, bypassing Mackintosh etc.

I've thought before that there wouldn't really be any harm in putting Kit in temporary charge whilst other replacements are looked at. Then, if he does badly, he can go back to the U21s and someone from the outside take over the first team. If he does well, give him longer.

[TonyGilroy]

You can't go back.

Last season's squad needed dismantling but some experience needed to be brought in.

The off field gossip and rumours are alarming but may not be true (or wholly true or in context or without axe grinding) and if we were getting results I'd ignore them but for me there is a fundamental problem.

In EVERY game we've looked quite good where it hasn't mattered. We concede soft goals and fail to impose ourselves in the opponents box. Too often we're second to the crucial balls. None of this has improved no matter who Magath picks.

If this WERE improving I'd say give it time but it's not so we desperately need a defensive organiser. If we were reasonably secure at the back the rest would follow. The squad isn't quite set in stone as loans are available so a new manager can bring in some know how.

Who to bring in is the big question of course. Not a novice or a guy used to achievements with better players so for me not Lennon or Murphy.  Brian McDermott seems a sensible option. He knows our strikers and this division and he was, very briefly, a Fulham player.

We can't go on as we are hoping for the best in the face of all the evidence that it isn't getting better.  

[Lighthouse]

The points are well made. But let us look at the amount of players being used  by our present manager. It is clear he hasn't a clue what or who his players and squad are. Really a new manager is unlikely to do as badly as Felix. One draw is embarrassing.

I think the points are true when it comes to Rene being replaced. Clearly a wrong time to do it. But Felix hasn't managed to to do a Rene and have some idea about the squad. So I really don't see the point of hanging on. The argument being a manager aware of The Championship is going to do a better job, even if the players are not known to him, than Felix is managing.

Even Rene managed to scrape a few performances and points together. Felix simply hasn't.

[BigbadBillyMcKinley]

I've been a supporter of Magath from the off, and thought giving him 10 games minimum was the best plan. Not anymore though. We are too far behind to continue risking having him in charge. If we were to keep him in charge for another 4 games, and we potentially lose them, confidence will be totally gone and it will be so hard for any manager to claw back the points. If we get rid now, and we go on a decent length run, there is still a strong possibility of getting into the play offs. Which is where we are supposed to be. The squad, and definitely the first team, are easily strong enough to mount a serious challenge.

On the flip side however; we have played tough games in the league already. Ipswich, Milwall and Reading, are hardened Championship teams. Reading and Derby are potential top 5 teams. Cardiff were favourites for the title at the start. I think the league in general is so open, that everyone can beat everyone on their day. But obviously we've not done enough.

It's such a difficult decision to make, either decision could be proven to be wrong in the future.

[b+w geezer]

It's a really bad having to replace a manager now, for reasons as supplied in the original post. It's also bad retaining a manager who can't settle on a team and coach it (motivate it, whatever) to stop shipping goals and to score some more. Nor is it good retaining a guy who cuts a folorn, hapless figure on the touchline and no longer exudes credibility. So we're talking lesser evils here and that is what removing Magath by now seems to be.

The foregoing is based purely on what's palpable to a match attendee (and mostly to someone who isn't, surely.)  It does not need reports of disenchantment with Magath behind the scenes to tip the balance, but they certainly don't tip it back. No sense here of a bloke whom club colleagues are fervently hoping gains the results to save his skin.

[f321ffc]

"Any manager who comes here in September will have to produce results from a squad that he is not invested in. How did that work for Magath in January?"
He has totally his own team now, how is he doing? :dead horse:

[AUSFFC]

The flaw in your argument in my opinion is that we can get rid of Magath and replace him with Kit Symons. As much of the current first team squad has come up from the academy Kit knows them and they know him. In fact Kit probably knows more, and has experience of working with more of the first team squad than Magath does.

:plus one:

[Fulham 442]

You say we will not be relegated but there is a very real chance we could be relegated. As things stand, we are the worst team in the league - no wins, most losses, fewest goals scored, horrible record all round.

The benefit of sacking Magath now is the new man might actually be reasonably sensible & stick with our best team, not chopping & changing every 5 minutes. Why have we used 3 goalkeepers already this season & about 30 different players? We're only 6 games in to a new season! It doesn't help player confidence or help the new players gel.

The new guy might actually play the players in their correct positions as well. No more Burn at left or right back, no more McCormack on the wing, Hoogland in midfield??

The most sensible thing would be to change manager & change NOW.

Spot on!!

[HatterDon]

thanks, all, for your contributions to this thread

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

If you ignore the minor irritation of being relegated, Magath had a few months with the old squad to assess the needs, the transfer window and pre-season to set us up and look where we are now.

Yes, now is not the ideal time to change managers but what is the alternative? Carrying on with little hope of improvement, demoralising the players and alienating the fans.

And new managers can turn matters around fairly quickly: Roy for us, although he did have the window, and Pulis for Palace (no, I wouldn't want him).

I am more concerned that we won't get the right man. But, as others have said, I would give Kit the job in the interim rather than let things drift onwards and downwards.

[nose]

The original post is a very well wriiten argument.

It has one major flaw and that is it is wrong. Well argued, but wrong.

Here is the thing. If things are wrong and there is an obvious source of the problem, to sit hypnotised and just hope it will work out, or worse wait thinking november is better than now will just do more damage, demoralise the squad further and make the crowd turn on not just the players but also the manager.

Better to get rid now..... the new man will have a chance to organise the team and at least work out our best 11 and formation. That will allow to time to put in a proper foundation and work out who is available and who he wants in the transfer market.

delay is more likely to compound the problem.If you have a cancer the sooner you cut it out the faster it will heal.