NFR Ched Evans- would you want him back if it was us?

[dannyboi-ffc]

A simple no. I don't think there is any grey area. If he worked in a shop or a factory then it is doubtful he would have his job back. There used to be part of a contract of employment which mentioned that doing anything that harmed ones employers reputation was cause for instant dismissal.

If he later appeals successfully then we take it from there.

That's where I disagree, if he worked in a shop or a factory he may well get his job back, if he didn't it wouldn't stop him applying for other jobs in other shops or factories.

If you take the point of view that he has served the sentence for the offence (and ignore the leniency of sentencing, and the rules allowing him out now) then he should be allowed to return to work, his work was a professional footballer. It's wrong that he should be stopped for doing this because some people don't think he's very nice or repentant enough.

Personally I wouldn't want him to be playing for a team I support, but it wouldn't stop me supporting the team. I just wouldn't cheer him when he scored, or defend the club for signing him.

He isn't an equal though, footballers are in the limelight and are role models.  Whether he has served his time or not how can a parent allow the or child to support a convicted rapist? Like I said I have two daughters, how can I cheer for him or go to watch him play? The same goes for those with sons who may well regard him as their hero. How is that right?

He served his time but should now go back to being an average Joe doing a job where he isn't noticed or spoken about. I have no issues with that but a football career cannot be compared to a factory job. Responsibilities come with being a professional and he only has himself to blame for messing it up.

It will send out the wrong signal to kids that you can get away with anything

[Oakeshott]

"It will send out the wrong signal to kids that you can get away with anything"

Hardly. Whether his conviction stands or is overturned, he has (a) spent quite a time in jail, which for most people - not perhaps career minor criminals - is a true punishment, (b) an enduring questionmark against his character.

And I think (b) is a real issue with rape and other sex crimes. The alleged perpetrator is named well before the jury verdict while the alleged victim is granted anonymity. But there can scarcely be a worse imputation about one's character than to be accused of such a crime, and even if one is found not guity there will inevitably be a lingering sense of "no smoke without fire" in some people's minds. (Let's face it, on a much less serious matter, how many of us regard our neighbour's manager as "dodgy" despite the fact that he was found not guilty at his trial.) That, I think, is why the Home Affairs Committee criticised the recent very highly publicised search of Cliff Richards' home in connection with child abuse enquiries.

A fairer system would be for there to be no naming until a trial has been held and jury verdict handed down.  

In this context I was interested in the comments made following the death, by suicide, of a girl being prosecuted for making a false rape accusation. As I understand it, the alleged rapist was named locally early in matters, before the police or CPS decided there was insufficient evidence. He then started a private prosecution against the girl which was taken over by the CPS and she killed herself because of the pressure. Had the alleged rapist not been named, he would have had no public oblique and thus no substantive reason for prosecuting the alleged victim.  


 

[TonyGilroy]

My head says that he's served his sentence and should be free to obtain whatever work he can. Much better for released prisoners to be in work than deprived of it because of their past.

On the other hand I really wouldn't want him playing for my club. I felt that MAF made the right call when he refused to sanction the Marlon King transfer. It feels wrong even though logically he probably should be free to continue his career.

[epsomraver]

"It will send out the wrong signal to kids that you can get away with anything"

Hardly. Whether his conviction stands or is overturned, he has (a) spent quite a time in jail, which for most people - not perhaps career minor criminals - is a true punishment, (b) an enduring questionmark against his character.

And I think (b) is a real issue with rape and other sex crimes. The alleged perpetrator is named well before the jury verdict while the alleged victim is granted anonymity. But there can scarcely be a worse imputation about one's character than to be accused of such a crime, and even if one is found not guity there will inevitably be a lingering sense of "no smoke without fire" in some people's minds. (Let's face it, on a much less serious matter, how many of us regard our neighbour's manager as "dodgy" despite the fact that he was found not guilty at his trial.) That, I think, is why the Home Affairs Committee criticised the recent very highly publicised search of Cliff Richards' home in connection with child abuse enquiries.

A fairer system would be for there to be no naming until a trial has been held and jury verdict handed down.  

In this context I was interested in the comments made following the death, by suicide, of a girl being prosecuted for making a false rape accusation. As I understand it, the alleged rapist was named locally early in matters, before the police or CPS decided there was insufficient evidence. He then started a private prosecution against the girl which was taken over by the CPS and she killed herself because of the pressure. Had the alleged rapist not been named, he would have had no public oblique and thus no substantive reason for prosecuting the alleged victim.  


 

0001.jpeg Richard Bacon got his job back and is all over the media now, double standards?

[snarks]

A simple no. I don't think there is any grey area. If he worked in a shop or a factory then it is doubtful he would have his job back. There used to be part of a contract of employment which mentioned that doing anything that harmed ones employers reputation was cause for instant dismissal.

If he later appeals successfully then we take it from there.

That's where I disagree, if he worked in a shop or a factory he may well get his job back, if he didn't it wouldn't stop him applying for other jobs in other shops or factories.

If you take the point of view that he has served the sentence for the offence (and ignore the leniency of sentencing, and the rules allowing him out now) then he should be allowed to return to work, his work was a professional footballer. It's wrong that he should be stopped for doing this because some people don't think he's very nice or repentant enough.

Personally I wouldn't want him to be playing for a team I support, but it wouldn't stop me supporting the team. I just wouldn't cheer him when he scored, or defend the club for signing him.

He isn't an equal though, footballers are in the limelight and are role models.  Whether he has served his time or not how can a parent allow the or child to support a convicted rapist? Like I said I have two daughters, how can I cheer for him or go to watch him play? The same goes for those with sons who may well regard him as their hero. How is that right?

He served his time but should now go back to being an average Joe doing a job where he isn't noticed or spoken about. I have no issues with that but a football career cannot be compared to a factory job. Responsibilities come with being a professional and he only has himself to blame for messing it up.

It will send out the wrong signal to kids that you can get away with anything

I don't think serving a prison sentence is "getting away with anything" If you read anything about him on the BBC or in newspapers, he is referred to as the Rapist Ched Evans or the Convicted Rapist Ched Evans, and rightly so.

I don't hink he should be debarred from playing football for a living if he is good enough for a team to be prepared to take the flack that goes with signing him.

If any parents allow their children to believe that Evans is a role model, well that's something that parents need to educate their children against, but that is a whole different thread. If anty Adult believes Evans is or should be held up as a role model well I wonder about them anyway.

I'm not saying 2 wrongs make a right, but look at the attitude of Hollywood to Roman Polanski, despite his admitted rape of a minor he is far from being ostracised nor to people stop going to see his films, and he's on the run from justice.

[cottage cheese]

I know that he is trying to appeal but....
he did nothing when his 'supporters' revealed the name of the girl and forced her into hiding
all he's said by way of remorse is 'sorry I was unfaithful to my girlfriend'
he's known to be pretty thick but even so, he seems to have learned nothing from this.
So my answer is 'no'.

Unfortunately he can never apologise or show remorse to the victim purely for the fact that an apology is seen as a sign of guilt/guilty and therefore if he remains adamant he is innocent he would only just cause more issues for himself. Obviously I dont believe him for a second and he shoudnt be anywhere near a position that younger children look up to him but that I feel explains why he has never really shown remorse towards the poor victim.

Its sort of like the Terry/Ferdinand farce. Ferdinand still demands an apology etc but since Terry in court/on oath said he did not say that racial slur he can never apologise as that will only contradict his own argument but essentially he has lied in court as well.

[MJG]

There will always be levels of convictions for any crime and each case has to looked at individually.  For this one it's a no,  unless he won his appeal and found not guilty.

[dannyboi-ffc]

There will always be levels of convictions for any crime and each case has to looked at individually.  For this one it's a no,  unless he won his appeal and found not guilty.

If found not guilty then that's completely different. But if found guilty again then I'd find it hard to support the club if it was us. I don't think Fulham would be brave or in my opinion stupid enough enough to resign someone. It's not worth the risk and to me its just plain wrong especially if you claim to be a family club

[snarks]

We should also bear in mind that according to the BBC, SUFC were asked by the players association to allow him to train in order to build up his fitness, they have not resigned him.

[Oakeshott]

Looking at it from a slightly different point of view, if someone, especially someone young, is rightly convicted of a crime and does the appropriate time in jail, and then by hard work and achievement (and of course no more crime) substantially redeems his reputation in most people's eyes, then that in itself provides a role model.

[MJG]

Looking at it from a slightly different point of view, if someone, especially someone young, is rightly convicted of a crime and does the appropriate time in jail, and then by hard work and achievement (and of course no more crime) substantially redeems his reputation in most people's eyes, then that in itself provides a role model.

for me it's the crime they did that matters the most.

[Putney]

No way, never in a million years would I want a person like him associated with the club.

As already stated, footballers are role models and whether people like it or not they have an important standing in society. This isn't an ordinary profession. Imagine bringing your young child along to the football and having to tell him that his favourite player is a horrible person.

Nothing stopping him going down a different career route.

[dannyboi-ffc]

Looking at it from a slightly different point of view, if someone, especially someone young, is rightly convicted of a crime and does the appropriate time in jail, and then by hard work and achievement (and of course no more crime) substantially redeems his reputation in most people's eyes, then that in itself provides a role model.

Maybe if it was a bank robbery but not rape. No remorse or turn around would ever deserve a pat on the back. Would you be saying well done son for turning your life around if that had been your daughter, sister etc? I doubt it so that's how I see it. It's very easy to come on here when you have no emotional attachment to the case and claim everyone deserves a second chance or can be a role model for changing their ways.  Not so easy when it's personal, something I hope none of us have to go through and if some of you have I'm sorry. It's an interesting debate But nothing will ever change how I feel about it.

[domprague]

He had a trial and was convicted. He had an appeal which was denied by the Court of Appeal. He's now attempting another appeal. I know that miscarriages of justice happened but twice a court has considered the evidence and found against him - and still he claims he didn't do it.

[JHaynes Paperboy]

No way, never in a million years would I want a person like him associated with the club.

As already stated, footballers are role models and whether people like it or not they have an important standing in society. This isn't an ordinary profession. Imagine bringing your young child along to the football and having to tell him that his favourite player is a horrible person.

Nothing stopping him going down a different career route.

We had Stan Collymore here?

[TheManOnTheBus]

No.   Yes, he has done his time, true.  But, no it is different from other jobs since he is in the public eye (and will be looked up to by some younger fans). 

If he apologised properly (a la Lance Armstrong?) then there is the beginning of the possibility of redemption.

Can I congratulate the board on a well-reasoned debate here.  I have seen Ched Evans discussed on other online forums and it really does degenerate sometimes.

[epsomraver]

Lesley Grantham, Den in East Enders conviced of murder in Germany, all over the media for years, again Richard Bacon for drugs on the TV and radio, Danny boi how can robbing a bank be acceptable if rape is not, who do you think has a gun pointed at them and in fear of their lives?

[TonyGilroy]

It's a real tough one though.

In general, surely, it's better for society if released criminals are in work because that must make them less likely to reoffend.

Evans is different presumably because he's a footballer, well paid and looked up to by fans but is that sufficient? I don't want him playing for us but I'm not convinced that I have a good enough reason for that.

[Oakeshott]

"Not so easy when it's personal"

Agreed. But that is why civilised societies have justice systems and do not allow for private retribution.

Whatever some argue, there are rapes and rapes. There is a world of difference between someone who abducts a young girl in the street and rapes her at knifepoint in a nearby alley and someone who goes too far in an initially consensual situation, and of course the difference is reflected in sentencing. If Evans really was guilty - and on the facts as we know them from the newspapers his conviction strikes me as perverse - then his offence was at the less serious end, and that explains his relatively short sentence.

If we are looking at comparisons, what about those convicting of drunken driving and killing or seriously injuring someone, and there have been a few of those in football - Lee Hughes, for example. On what I know of the Hughes and Evans situations - only what has been reported in the press - personally I'd regard Evans' as the lesser offence. 

[dannyboi-ffc]

Lesley Grantham, Den in East Enders conviced of murder in Germany, all over the media for years, again Richard Bacon for drugs on the TV and radio, Danny boi how can robbing a bank be acceptable if rape is not, who do you think has a gun pointed at them and in fear of their lives?

Bank robbery doesn't necessarily mean anyone is harmed and normally the intentions are to get money. Rape guarantees harm and is completely different. Neither are right but my reply was to a comment saying all criminals can turn things around and that in itself is a role model. Not for me.

"Hi I'm X, I once robbed a bank and served time as punishment. It was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the bank got their money back and I'm gonna put the past behind me"

"Hi I'm X, I took raped somebody and served time as punishment,  it was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the victim has to live with what I did for the rest of their life and I'm gonna put the past behind me."

There's a key difference there, rape will stay with the victim forever so why should he go back to the luxuries he had before? He should be made to go out and find a normal job and work hard for his redemption.  

Big difference Epsom between rape and robbery, I never said anyone was hurt in the robbery. Just the intention to steal