NFR Ched Evans- would you want him back if it was us?

[westcliff white]

Looking at it from a slightly different point of view, if someone, especially someone young, is rightly convicted of a crime and does the appropriate time in jail, and then by hard work and achievement (and of course no more crime) substantially redeems his reputation in most people's eyes, then that in itself provides a role model.

But then you also have to show some sign of remorse for what you have done, Ched Evans to date ha snot done this. I guess that's because he believes he is innocent and is appealing. That being the case then he should wait until after that appeal to try to resurrect his playing career,

[TonyGilroy]

But there's a very arbitrary line you're seeking to draw.

I take it as read that there are vast ranges of seriousness in all crimes including rape and robbery. the sentencing system is supposed to reflect this however imperfectly it sometimes seems to operate.

A 16 year old boy having "consensual" sex with a 15 year old is a rapist. Should he have a lifetime ban from football. Would it matter if he were 18? Or 20 maybe - where is that line drawn if not by the sentencing judge.

[snarks]

"Not so easy when it's personal"

Agreed. But that is why civilised societies have justice systems and do not allow for private retribution.

Whatever some argue, there are rapes and rapes. There is a world of difference between someone who abducts a young girl in the street and rapes her at knifepoint in a nearby alley and someone who goes too far in an initially consensual situation, and of course the difference is reflected in sentencing. If Evans really was guilty - and on the facts as we know them from the newspapers his conviction strikes me as perverse - then his offence was at the less serious end, and that explains his relatively short sentence.

If we are looking at comparisons, what about those convicting of drunken driving and killing or seriously injuring someone, and there have been a few of those in football - Lee Hughes, for example. On what I know of the Hughes and Evans situations - only what has been reported in the press - personally I'd regard Evans' as the lesser offence.  

Sorry you really can't say there are different classes of Rape. There are not, Rape is Rape end of. There may be different levels of violence associated with Rape, and those levels of violence or other aggravating factors may increase the sentence.

I don't want to divert the thread, but you will find that as an offence it's Rape not Rape(1) or Rape(2) or Rape(3). Less than Rape is sexual assualt.

I know I'm being a bit pedantic, but it is a huge bugbear of mine as somehow if you trivialise it as being a "lesser Rape" it makes it seem like a woman wasn't really Raped.

[westcliff white]

Lesley Grantham, Den in East Enders conviced of murder in Germany, all over the media for years, again Richard Bacon for drugs on the TV and radio, Danny boi how can robbing a bank be acceptable if rape is not, who do you think has a gun pointed at them and in fear of their lives?

Bank robbery doesn't necessarily mean anyone is harmed and normally the intentions are to get money. Rape guarantees harm and is completely different. Neither are right but my reply was to a comment saying all criminals can turn things around and that in itself is a role model. Not for me.

"Hi I'm X, I once robbed a bank and served time as punishment. It was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the bank got their money back and I'm gonna put the past behind me"

"Hi I'm X, I took raped somebody and served time as punishment,  it was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the victim has to live with what I did for the rest of their life and I'm gonna put the past behind me."

There's a key difference there, rape will stay with the victim forever so why should he go back to the luxuries he had before? He should be made to go out and find a normal job and work hard for his redemption. 

Big difference Epsom between rape and robbery, I never said anyone was hurt in the robbery. Just the intention to steal

Danny-Boi i get your sentiment but in your line, I have hi-lighted so you can see what I mean, some victims do live with that and cannot get over it, their lives are ruined, so some would say why should the perpetrators life be any different.

"Hi I'm X, I took raped somebody and served time as punishment,  it was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the victim has to live with what I did for the rest of their life and I'm gonna put the past behind me."

[westcliff white]

"Not so easy when it's personal"

Agreed. But that is why civilised societies have justice systems and do not allow for private retribution.

Whatever some argue, there are rapes and rapes. There is a world of difference between someone who abducts a young girl in the street and rapes her at knifepoint in a nearby alley and someone who goes too far in an initially consensual situation, and of course the difference is reflected in sentencing. If Evans really was guilty - and on the facts as we know them from the newspapers his conviction strikes me as perverse - then his offence was at the less serious end, and that explains his relatively short sentence.

If we are looking at comparisons, what about those convicting of drunken driving and killing or seriously injuring someone, and there have been a few of those in football - Lee Hughes, for example. On what I know of the Hughes and Evans situations - only what has been reported in the press - personally I'd regard Evans' as the lesser offence. 

Oakshott has anyone in your family been raped? I ask as my daughter was 9 months ago, there are no differing levels for the crime, rape is just rape. To try to lesson the crime with the comment  "there are rapes and rapes" is very insulting to all those that have suffered the heinous act and to their families that help the victim back to as normal a life as possible.

[dannyboi-ffc]

Lesley Grantham, Den in East Enders conviced of murder in Germany, all over the media for years, again Richard Bacon for drugs on the TV and radio, Danny boi how can robbing a bank be acceptable if rape is not, who do you think has a gun pointed at them and in fear of their lives?

Bank robbery doesn't necessarily mean anyone is harmed and normally the intentions are to get money. Rape guarantees harm and is completely different. Neither are right but my reply was to a comment saying all criminals can turn things around and that in itself is a role model. Not for me.

"Hi I'm X, I once robbed a bank and served time as punishment. It was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the bank got their money back and I'm gonna put the past behind me"

"Hi I'm X, I took raped somebody and served time as punishment,  it was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the victim has to live with what I did for the rest of their life and I'm gonna put the past behind me."

There's a key difference there, rape will stay with the victim forever so why should he go back to the luxuries he had before? He should be made to go out and find a normal job and work hard for his redemption. 

Big difference Epsom between rape and robbery, I never said anyone was hurt in the robbery. Just the intention to steal

Danny-Boi i get your sentiment but in your line, I have hi-lighted so you can see what I mean, some victims do live with that and cannot get over it, their lives are ruined, so some would say why should the perpetrators life be any different.

"Hi I'm X, I took raped somebody and served time as punishment,  it was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the victim has to live with what I did for the rest of their life and I'm gonna put the past behind me."

I'm sure if he goes on to earn anywhere near the 20,000 a week he was on before will go a long way to help clear his conscious.

Maybe it will stay with him or any perpetrator forever but there's only one person to blame for that and it certainly isn't the victim.

[dannyboi-ffc]

No.   Yes, he has done his time, true.  But, no it is different from other jobs since he is in the public eye (and will be looked up to by some younger fans). 

If he apologised properly (a la Lance Armstrong?) then there is the beginning of the possibility of redemption.

Can I congratulate the board on a well-reasoned debate here.  I have seen Ched Evans discussed on other online forums and it really does degenerate sometimes.

Thanks. I don't know what's going on lately. This is the second debate since Blackpool that I've started which everyone contributed in a nice civilised way.

Either were all going soft or were nicer without the stress of Felix. Well done everyone for keeping it clean. Lets keep it up

[westcliff white]

Lesley Grantham, Den in East Enders conviced of murder in Germany, all over the media for years, again Richard Bacon for drugs on the TV and radio, Danny boi how can robbing a bank be acceptable if rape is not, who do you think has a gun pointed at them and in fear of their lives?

Bank robbery doesn't necessarily mean anyone is harmed and normally the intentions are to get money. Rape guarantees harm and is completely different. Neither are right but my reply was to a comment saying all criminals can turn things around and that in itself is a role model. Not for me.

"Hi I'm X, I once robbed a bank and served time as punishment. It was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the bank got their money back and I'm gonna put the past behind me"

"Hi I'm X, I took raped somebody and served time as punishment,  it was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the victim has to live with what I did for the rest of their life and I'm gonna put the past behind me."

There's a key difference there, rape will stay with the victim forever so why should he go back to the luxuries he had before? He should be made to go out and find a normal job and work hard for his redemption. 

Big difference Epsom between rape and robbery, I never said anyone was hurt in the robbery. Just the intention to steal

Danny-Boi i get your sentiment but in your line, I have hi-lighted so you can see what I mean, some victims do live with that and cannot get over it, their lives are ruined, so some would say why should the perpetrators life be any different.

"Hi I'm X, I took raped somebody and served time as punishment,  it was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the victim has to live with what I did for the rest of their life and I'm gonna put the past behind me."

I'm sure if he goes on to earn anywhere near the 20,000 a week he was on before will go a long way to help clear his conscious.

Maybe it will stay with him or any perpetrator forever but there's only one person to blame for that and it certainly isn't the victim.

That's my point if the person who was raped cannot get over it and cannot live a normal life then why should the attacker be allowed to do so.

[snarks]

Westcliffe, unfortunately that is our justice system.

Victims of crime are frequently traumatised, and some never get over it, however if the perpetrator has received whatever punishment the state deems fit, then he is expected to be able to reintegrate into society and get on with his life.

I'm not sure whether a perpetrator should be outcast for the rest of their life because of something they did in the past and were punished for. The only anology I can come up with for that is manslaughter, the victim never recovers (they're dead) should we just lock the person who did it up for life, clearly not in a civilised society.

[TonyGilroy]

What actually seems to be happening at Sheffield United is that the club would like to take him back and are trying to get a feel for the opinions of supporters and others before deciding what to do.

That may be no bad thing but what I think we know is that if they decline some other club will take him on.

[Jonaldiniho 88]

I don't like the idea of it and from my heart would say no. But my head thinks there is a lot more to it than that. Westcliff white my heart goes out to you and I mean that but I think rape is such a broadly used word that there is a difference. I think the word covers such a wide area it needs to be refined. Pre meditated murder, murder, self defence, manslaughter, to name a few describe the act of killing someone but rape covers every eventuality? I don't think it does and I don't want anyone who has suffered to feel a crime against them was anything but a crime but I think the word and crime need some refracting.

[Stefano Okaka Chuka]

Lesley Grantham, Den in East Enders conviced of murder in Germany, all over the media for years, again Richard Bacon for drugs on the TV and radio, Danny boi how can robbing a bank be acceptable if rape is not, who do you think has a gun pointed at them and in fear of their lives?

Bank robbery doesn't necessarily mean anyone is harmed and normally the intentions are to get money. Rape guarantees harm and is completely different. Neither are right but my reply was to a comment saying all criminals can turn things around and that in itself is a role model. Not for me.

"Hi I'm X, I once robbed a bank and served time as punishment. It was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the bank got their money back and I'm gonna put the past behind me"

"Hi I'm X, I took raped somebody and served time as punishment,  it was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the victim has to live with what I did for the rest of their life and I'm gonna put the past behind me."

There's a key difference there, rape will stay with the victim forever so why should he go back to the luxuries he had before? He should be made to go out and find a normal job and work hard for his redemption. 

Big difference Epsom between rape and robbery, I never said anyone was hurt in the robbery. Just the intention to steal

Danny-Boi i get your sentiment but in your line, I have hi-lighted so you can see what I mean, some victims do live with that and cannot get over it, their lives are ruined, so some would say why should the perpetrators life be any different.

"Hi I'm X, I took raped somebody and served time as punishment,  it was stupid but now I'm straight and my life is back on track, the victim has to live with what I did for the rest of their life and I'm gonna put the past behind me."

I'm sure if he goes on to earn anywhere near the 20,000 a week he was on before will go a long way to help clear his conscious.

Maybe it will stay with him or any perpetrator forever but there's only one person to blame for that and it certainly isn't the victim.

That's my point if the person who was raped cannot get over it and cannot live a normal life then why should the attacker be allowed to do so.

It is called justice, not retribution. According to your argument we should chop the hand of someone if he chops another man's hand. Ched Evans served his sentence, I don't know if I would want my son or me to cheer someone who did something so heinous but he should be able to work and earn a living like everyone else. The only problem I have with this as I mentioned is that football isn't just your regular job, despite what many thinks it's not like being a bricklayer or a bartender, it's a job where you should represent someone else the fans and I don't know if would like to be represented by a rapist. I wouldn't vote for one that's for sure.

[Oakeshott]

"Either were all going soft or were nicer without the stress of Felix"

Danny

I think the latter point is very pertinent.

For me, and I imagine others, supporting Fulham (as I have done for over 50 years) is an escape from the day to day presures of personal life, and normally it has been an enjoyable escape, particularly under Roy. But under Jol, not to mention FM, to me it was a different Fulham - not the Club I have enjoyed supporting but one taken over and damaged by idiots. Since Kit's appointment I feel the Club is really Fulham again, and even though we are barely out of the Championship relegation zone and with only an outside chance of promotion this season, I feel altogether more comfortable than at any time in the past three seasons or so.

Obviously the happier state of mind I'm in post Jol/FM has not been the case with everyone, and I've been surprised at the level of criticism some have already made of Kit's team selections and tactics. But I think I detect a generally more cheerful atmosphere on the forum and that no doubt assists when we discuss anything controversial.

[westcliff white]

Westcliffe, unfortunately that is our justice system.

Victims of crime are frequently traumatised, and some never get over it, however if the perpetrator has received whatever punishment the state deems fit, then he is expected to be able to reintegrate into society and get on with his life.

I'm not sure whether a perpetrator should be outcast for the rest of their life because of something they did in the past and were punished for. The only anology I can come up with for that is manslaughter, the victim never recovers (they're dead) should we just lock the person who did it up for life, clearly not in a civilised society.

Firstly this topic has been handled well on this board and for that I congratulate everyone. In my situation my 17 year old daughter was raped and abuses for 30 minutes for me personally I do not think the guy who did it should have a life after prison, the trauma my daughter has now is shocking, unable to go to and come home from 6th form on her own, scared to go out i would say that's very damaging and she is unable to integrate into society and that seems unfair. The knock on effects are that my wife has had to stop work and take a part time job which impacts her integrating into society.

It's a cold and strange world but if you experience any heinous crime against your own kin your views change, believe me.

The system isn't perfect I agree however in the Scenario u mention for me taking a life should mean life inside.

[BigbadBillyMcKinley]

As the question was "would I take him back if it were us?", the answer is a resounding no. Regardless of quality or goal scoring ability. The

As for him going to another club, then the answer is - we can't stop him.

Football is fickle. And football fans are fickle. One minute you hate someone, the next minute he's scoring the winning goal in a cup final, and the reason you hated him is forgotten.

He isn't the first convicted rapist to come back and be successful; Craig Charles; Mike Tyson; 2Pac etc and I very much doubt he'll be the last.


Even OJ Simpson had a bit of a career after he topped his ex wife.

[Lighthouse]

"Either were all going soft or were nicer without the stress of Felix"

Danny

I think the latter point is very pertinent.

For me, and I imagine others, supporting Fulham (as I have done for over 50 years) is an escape from the day to day presures of personal life, and normally it has been an enjoyable escape, particularly under Roy. But under Jol, not to mention FM, to me it was a different Fulham - not the Club I have enjoyed supporting but one taken over and damaged by idiots. Since Kit's appointment I feel the Club is really Fulham again, and even though we are barely out of the Championship relegation zone and with only an outside chance of promotion this season, I feel altogether more comfortable than at any time in the past three seasons or so.

Obviously the happier state of mind I'm in post Jol/FM has not been the case with everyone, and I've been surprised at the level of criticism some have already made of Kit's team selections and tactics. But I think I detect a generally more cheerful atmosphere on the forum and that no doubt assists when we discuss anything controversial.

:plus one:

[Barrett487]

What actually seems to be happening at Sheffield United is that the club would like to take him back and are trying to get a feel for the opinions of supporters and others before deciding what to do.

That may be no bad thing but what I think we know is that if they decline some other club will take him on.

Sorry Tony, hate to continually agree with you as it ruins your street cred, lol.

Other teams abroad would take him, as most of them are goat-shaggers (not really mr lawyer). I reckon they're sharpening him up to sell abroad. Alternatively a lower league club (destined) that might take someone like Nyle Ranger may be interested domestically (is that domestic violence? no offence intended)

[Andy S]

The answer is No! He has been convicted and sent to Jail for 5 years He was released early but he does not need to be employed early if at all. The message needs to be sent out Rape is a crime and although you may do your time society does not forgive you. He is still a rapist

[kevin]

NO !!

[bill taylors apprentice]

No!
For those who say he's done his time and has a right to earn a living, I say ....
I may be going out on a limb here, but here's a random list off the top of my head of professions.
Solicitor, Doctor, Nurse, Architect, Police/Armed forces, Chemist, Journalist, Accountant, Librarian, Airline pilot, Clergy, Teacher.
Its very unlikely any of the above would ever be re employed in the same profession after being convicted of rape.
A pro footballers status may not rank as high as some of the above but the footballers profile puts him in the same league and any decent society should reject any come back.
He can go about his life and continue to deny if he likes but he has no right to take up were he left off before the rape.