Hoogland and Amorebieta

[MJG]

I am one of these fickle fans that Alfie mentions earlier in this thread..... Last season Amorebieta was dreadful,  he never seem ed to adapt to the premier league, and looked out of his depth quite frankly. This season he is a different player, and deserves some praise for the way he has played for us this season.

I think he is a more solid option at left back, gives us some strength that staf doesn't, and as I said previously is probably our best footballer in defence in terms of passing abillity. We allow less crosses into the box when he is in the side, and he is pretty good in the air to help us from set plays.

I quite liked Staf playing in front of him as it really reminds me of the Hodgson days,  having two quick and industrious wingers to help out with the defence. They also seem to work together. Amore has different attributes to Staf, but given his experience and with how has played this season I think he is he better option of the two. Although I do still think he is a little bit clumsy as others pointed out .

So yes I admit it I am fickle, as I was bashing Amorebieta last season, but like Rodallega he seems to have found his level in the championship, and long may it continue.

Agreed deano! Some people make their mind up on a player and never see the good in them even when they turn a corner. Amore is far from perfect but he has improved so much on last year and looks committed. I think playing them both on the left is what Kit will do anyway and I won't have an issue with that.  Georgie boy and Fofana will be great impact subs with their pace and energy.

Like Hodgson keep it tight and then go for the kill.

I also think amore is vital to set pieces in both boxes. Defensively we had ruiz hyndman lvc parker Grimmer stafylidis and mcormack against Brighton.

Burn/hutch, bod is not ideal for winning headers on their own.Even Hugo isn't great in the air and set pieces are very important in this league. Brighton had about 6 corners in a row straight from kickoff the other day, ok they never scored but we struggled to clear it properly hence why they had so many in a row. We put ourselves under unnecessary pressure because we have a big height disadvantage. 

Going back to people having a adamant opinion on players, parker is another. I slated him second half of last year and rightly so because he was awful but some refuse to allow a player to win them over. Parker's done that for me, my player of the year so far and I think he's our most important player.

The post about amore being one of our worst is very harsh, he's decent at both lb and cb,  some could only play in one position and were still terrible. I could name 10 cb and lb that were worse.

Anyone remember Chris baird? Everyone can turn a corner, i'd even give credit to zverotic if I could see improvement. Everyone deserves the opportunity to improve. (Really hope zverotic doesn't play tomorrow though lol! What a hypocrite I am)

Has he improved? Or is it more to do with the standard of player he is facing?
As I wrote earlier in this thread he still does the two basic things that cause me to have issues with him. He has not improved in those areas of defending.

[dannyboi-ffc]

I am one of these fickle fans that Alfie mentions earlier in this thread..... Last season Amorebieta was dreadful,  he never seem ed to adapt to the premier league, and looked out of his depth quite frankly. This season he is a different player, and deserves some praise for the way he has played for us this season.

I think he is a more solid option at left back, gives us some strength that staf doesn't, and as I said previously is probably our best footballer in defence in terms of passing abillity. We allow less crosses into the box when he is in the side, and he is pretty good in the air to help us from set plays.

I quite liked Staf playing in front of him as it really reminds me of the Hodgson days,  having two quick and industrious wingers to help out with the defence. They also seem to work together. Amore has different attributes to Staf, but given his experience and with how has played this season I think he is he better option of the two. Although I do still think he is a little bit clumsy as others pointed out .

So yes I admit it I am fickle, as I was bashing Amorebieta last season, but like Rodallega he seems to have found his level in the championship, and long may it continue.

Agreed deano! Some people make their mind up on a player and never see the good in them even when they turn a corner. Amore is far from perfect but he has improved so much on last year and looks committed. I think playing them both on the left is what Kit will do anyway and I won't have an issue with that.  Georgie boy and Fofana will be great impact subs with their pace and energy.

Like Hodgson keep it tight and then go for the kill.

I also think amore is vital to set pieces in both boxes. Defensively we had ruiz hyndman lvc parker Grimmer stafylidis and mcormack against Brighton.

Burn/hutch, bod is not ideal for winning headers on their own.Even Hugo isn't great in the air and set pieces are very important in this league. Brighton had about 6 corners in a row straight from kickoff the other day, ok they never scored but we struggled to clear it properly hence why they had so many in a row. We put ourselves under unnecessary pressure because we have a big height disadvantage.  

Going back to people having a adamant opinion on players, parker is another. I slated him second half of last year and rightly so because he was awful but some refuse to allow a player to win them over. Parker's done that for me, my player of the year so far and I think he's our most important player.

The post about amore being one of our worst is very harsh, he's decent at both lb and cb,  some could only play in one position and were still terrible. I could name 10 cb and lb that were worse.

Anyone remember Chris baird? Everyone can turn a corner, i'd even give credit to zverotic if I could see improvement. Everyone deserves the opportunity to improve. (Really hope zverotic doesn't play tomorrow though lol! What a hypocrite I am)

Has he improved? Or is it more to do with the standard of player he is facing?
As I wrote earlier in this thread he still does the two basic things that cause me to have issues with him. He has not improved in those areas of defending.

I personally think it's a bit of both. I don't remember any mistakes this season. He doesn't dive in as much and I think some of that is down to kit.

We are stuck with what we have until January and we lack physical strength and height.  Yes the opposition isn't as good but that seems an excuse not to admit someone's getting better. Maybe he's just settled now after a year in England and the first sign of stability with kit? It couldn't have been easy with the merry go round of last year.  

He's had 4 managers, 2 chairman, enough team mates to make 4 teams,  god knows how many different coaches and assistants. Add to that curbs, Wilkins and the 5 man panel, all he needed to meet was the fairy god mother. No wonder the boy looked confused last season.  

So i think it's a mix of stability,  adjustment, improvement and a lower level.

[MJG]

I don't remember any mistakes this season.

Blackpool game he made mistake that led up to goal. Most blamed Burn but the initial mistake was from him. trying to do exactly what I dont like him doing, too closely marked to player he tries to intercept the pass by getting his foot in front of other player. Because hes too tight and misses ball he gets turned.
He does that all the time and hardly ever works, that along with his failure to just stop running int backs of players and giving free kicks make him a no for me.
Oh and a lesson in how to take a throw in would not go a miss for any of our left backs.

[dannyboi-ffc]

I don't remember any mistakes this season.

Blackpool game he made mistake that led up to goal. Most blamed Burn but the initial mistake was from him. trying to do exactly what I dont like him doing, too closely marked to player he tries to intercept the pass by getting his foot in front of other player. Because hes too tight and misses ball he gets turned.
He does that all the time and hardly ever works, that along with his failure to just stop running int backs of players and giving free kicks make him a no for me.
Oh and a lesson in how to take a throw in would not go a miss for any of our left backs.

I agree the throw ins are a joke, he's the worst I've ever seen at that. Don't get how all the managers have failed to improve that though. It's not hard and he clearly doesn't practise them.

There was 3 mistakes for that Blackpool goal, burn was turned way too easily and zverotic was half asleep at the back post. Every player makes the odd error, even Hugo mcormack and Parker. He isn't consistently causing us to concede goals.

Parker LVC hyndman and the back four gave away dangerous free kicks every 5 minutes against Brighton,  incredibly every single one was ballooned over the bar and one short one in the first half from 20 yards which resulted in no shot and a free kick to us. It's fair to say free kicks was not Brighton strong point. But it proves all players in our squad give away needless fouls, amore is no worse than the rest.

Yes he can be clumsy but this season he's been no worse than any other full back

[crazycottager]

let's not forget Kavanagh. i'd like to see him back in the team in Hoog's spot as it would cover RB, or put him at left to cover Stafy/Amore and then put a combo of Hutch/Burn Burn/Amore, but not Hutch Amore because Burn's done really well. so i think i'd put Kava at right back and maybe stafy at left, with Hutch/Burn in the middle. I have respect for Amore, he just doesn't play well over here.

[J.Perkins]

let's not forget Kavanagh. i'd like to see him back in the team in Hoog's spot as it would cover RB, or put him at left to cover Stafy/Amore and then put a combo of Hutch/Burn Burn/Amore, but not Hutch Amore because Burn's done really well. so i think i'd put Kava at right back and maybe stafy at left, with Hutch/Burn in the middle. I have respect for Amore, he just doesn't play well over here.

Kavanagh at RB? You having a laugh?

[Mokes]

Kavanagh is a left back..

Staffy and Sean are much better options than Amore. Amore was only ever moved out to left back as he was too much of a liability at centre back. It ended up being a safer option to trust a debutant in Burn to play there for the all important relegation battle.

The only time I am remotely comfortable with Amore at left back was when we had richardson playing in front of him who had the positional sense to know where to be when amore is caught out of position. I remember the Norwich game last year when Richardson saved Fernando and us several times. Unfortunately for us Richardson is not here this season and G Williams doesn't offer much defensively and Staffy is good but not good enough to play two positions at the same time.

He has been out of the team since Middlesborough apart from the one game against Blackpool. Had he had any knowledge of where a left back is supposed to be in a four at the back system we would not have lost (it may as well have been) that game. In the seven other league games since Middlesborough we have played we have only lost one game to an injury time goal. The team is doing well without him and nobody deserves to be dropped for him.

I can definitely change my opinion of a player when they deserve it. I never thought much of Hugo last season, but now I would trade him for anyone (in the division). Woodrows another one i never thought much of initially but now really rate. I never really disliked Bryan but I can appreciate how much better he has been this season.

The only two players in our playing squad who do absolutely nothing for me are Amore and Dembele. If injuries occur and they get their chance and take it maybe my opinions will change, but for anyone to be benched for them (in a meaningful game) is ridiculous.  

[dannyboi-ffc]

Kavanagh is a left back..

Staffy and Sean are much better options than Amore. Amore was only ever moved out to left back as he was too much of a liability at centre back. It ended up being a safer option to trust a debutant in Burn to play there for the all important relegation battle.

The only time I am remotely comfortable with Amore at left back was when we had richardson playing in front of him who had the positional sense to know where to be when amore is caught out of position. I remember the Norwich game last year when Richardson saved Fernando and us several times. Unfortunately for us Richardson is not here this season and G Williams doesn't offer much defensively and Staffy is good but not good enough to play two positions at the same time.

He has been out of the team since Middlesborough apart from the one game against Blackpool. Had he had any knowledge of where a left back is supposed to be in a four at the back system we would not have lost (it may as well have been) that game. In the seven other league games since Middlesborough we have played we have only lost one game to an injury time goal. The team is doing well without him and nobody deserves to be dropped for him.

I can definitely change my opinion of a player when they deserve it. I never thought much of Hugo last season, but now I would trade him for anyone (in the division). Woodrows another one i never thought much of initially but now really rate. I never really disliked Bryan but I can appreciate how much better he has been this season.

The only two players in our playing squad who do absolutely nothing for me are Amore and Dembele. If injuries occur and they get their chance and take it maybe my opinions will change, but for anyone to be benched for them (in a meaningful game) is ridiculous. 

Completely agree about dembele. For me he is over hyped and over rated. I like amore though but I'm pleased I'm not the only one who doesn't appreciate what Dembele is supposed to bring.

[CottagersOnTour]

Completely agree about dembele. For me he is over hyped and over rated. I like amore though but I'm pleased I'm not the only one who doesn't appreciate what Dembele is supposed to bring.

Dembele is only 18... cant really be under-hyped at that age, only over.

He certainly can be overrated by some, but again, he is only 18 and has barely started any senior games, wait and see what happens, not sure he is supposed to/expected to bring much to the table quite yet.

[snarks]

Dembele appears to be "just" a goal scorer at present, and one who is slowly adjusting to the next step up. At 18 he has plenty of time to develop. He could learn (and hopefully is ) from Ross and Hugo. Although with all strikers a run in the team is essential to improve/establish themselves.

[dannyboi-ffc]

I understand he is learning and is only 18 but I get the impression most believe he's a world beater in the making. I don't even see the potential to be that good, championship looks like being his level to me.

I didn't even think he was that good in the under 18.  Scored lots of goals but his overall game didn't convince me. Not like Williams who I've always thought was our best prospect.

[Mokes]

Completely agree about dembele. For me he is over hyped and over rated. I like amore though but I'm pleased I'm not the only one who doesn't appreciate what Dembele is supposed to bring.

Dembele is only 18... cant really be under-hyped at that age, only over.

He certainly can be overrated by some, but again, he is only 18 and has barely started any senior games, wait and see what happens, not sure he is supposed to/expected to bring much to the table quite yet.

If that's the case he shouldn't be at our table. He should be at a league 1 teams table doing the business there before he is ready to come to our table and offer something. If we have room in our team for a player that is "just" a goal scorer as snarks pointed out then surely Trotta deserves his chance.

For me Dembele offers nothing but the odd goal when he is presented with a gift that any player could knock in. He is weak on the ball when up against championship level defenders and never looks for a team mate. I went to a lot of the youth games where he did seem a great player amongst a bunch of other kids but at tis level he is totally lost. A couple of season of league one football will do him good.

[dannyboi-ffc]

Completely agree about dembele. For me he is over hyped and over rated. I like amore though but I'm pleased I'm not the only one who doesn't appreciate what Dembele is supposed to bring.

Dembele is only 18... cant really be under-hyped at that age, only over.

He certainly can be overrated by some, but again, he is only 18 and has barely started any senior games, wait and see what happens, not sure he is supposed to/expected to bring much to the table quite yet.

If that's the case he shouldn't be at our table. He should be at a league 1 teams table doing the business there before he is ready to come to our table and offer something. If we have room in our team for a player that is "just" a goal scorer as snarks pointed out then surely Trotta deserves his chance.

For me Dembele offers nothing but the odd goal when he is presented with a gift that any player could knock in. He is weak on the ball when up against championship level defenders and never looks for a team mate. I went to a lot of the youth games where he did seem a great player amongst a bunch of other kids but at tis level he is totally lost. A couple of season of league one football will do him good.

I agree a loan in league one didn't do burn any harm. It's the best thing for him. 

It's funny dembele does nothing but score goals and Woodrow does everything but score goals. Can't we mix them together and make one player!

[Mokes]

Completely agree about dembele. For me he is over hyped and over rated. I like amore though but I'm pleased I'm not the only one who doesn't appreciate what Dembele is supposed to bring.

Dembele is only 18... cant really be under-hyped at that age, only over.

He certainly can be overrated by some, but again, he is only 18 and has barely started any senior games, wait and see what happens, not sure he is supposed to/expected to bring much to the table quite yet.

If that's the case he shouldn't be at our table. He should be at a league 1 teams table doing the business there before he is ready to come to our table and offer something. If we have room in our team for a player that is "just" a goal scorer as snarks pointed out then surely Trotta deserves his chance.

For me Dembele offers nothing but the odd goal when he is presented with a gift that any player could knock in. He is weak on the ball when up against championship level defenders and never looks for a team mate. I went to a lot of the youth games where he did seem a great player amongst a bunch of other kids but at tis level he is totally lost. A couple of season of league one football will do him good.

I agree a loan in league one didn't do burn any harm. It's the best thing for him. 

It's funny dembele does nothing but score goals and Woodrow does everything but score goals. Can't we mix them together and make one player!

Has Dembele scored that many goals? sure he was banging them in amongst the kids, but apart from the two gifts he received against Derby, which being honest were more down to defensive errors. I can't actually recall any other goals from him. Woodrow has scored two wonderful goals against Crystal Palace and I think it was Rotherham. Neither of them really get many opportunities but of the two of them Woodrow has made a much better account of himself. He is also English so if he gets really good he could fetch us a nice transfer fee.

[dannyboi-ffc]

Completely agree about dembele. For me he is over hyped and over rated. I like amore though but I'm pleased I'm not the only one who doesn't appreciate what Dembele is supposed to bring.

Dembele is only 18... cant really be under-hyped at that age, only over.

He certainly can be overrated by some, but again, he is only 18 and has barely started any senior games, wait and see what happens, not sure he is supposed to/expected to bring much to the table quite yet.

If that's the case he shouldn't be at our table. He should be at a league 1 teams table doing the business there before he is ready to come to our table and offer something. If we have room in our team for a player that is "just" a goal scorer as snarks pointed out then surely Trotta deserves his chance.

For me Dembele offers nothing but the odd goal when he is presented with a gift that any player could knock in. He is weak on the ball when up against championship level defenders and never looks for a team mate. I went to a lot of the youth games where he did seem a great player amongst a bunch of other kids but at tis level he is totally lost. A couple of season of league one football will do him good.

I agree a loan in league one didn't do burn any harm. It's the best thing for him. 

It's funny dembele does nothing but score goals and Woodrow does everything but score goals. Can't we mix them together and make one player!

Has Dembele scored that many goals? sure he was banging them in amongst the kids, but apart from the two gifts he received against Derby, which being honest were more down to defensive errors. I can't actually recall any other goals from him. Woodrow has scored two wonderful goals against Crystal Palace and I think it was Rotherham. Neither of them really get many opportunities but of the two of them Woodrow has made a much better account of himself. He is also English so if he gets really good he could fetch us a nice transfer fee.

I agree with you. I was just basing it on their styles. Dembele is meant to be a goal scorer and Woodrow is more of a work horse. I don't think either can be depended on for goals but Woodrow certainly performs better and has the greater potential to me.

[hovewhite]

Coming back to amore & the hoog they shouldn't expect to come back into a winning team.

[Mokes]

Completely agree about dembele. For me he is over hyped and over rated. I like amore though but I'm pleased I'm not the only one who doesn't appreciate what Dembele is supposed to bring.

Dembele is only 18... cant really be under-hyped at that age, only over.

He certainly can be overrated by some, but again, he is only 18 and has barely started any senior games, wait and see what happens, not sure he is supposed to/expected to bring much to the table quite yet.

If that's the case he shouldn't be at our table. He should be at a league 1 teams table doing the business there before he is ready to come to our table and offer something. If we have room in our team for a player that is "just" a goal scorer as snarks pointed out then surely Trotta deserves his chance.

For me Dembele offers nothing but the odd goal when he is presented with a gift that any player could knock in. He is weak on the ball when up against championship level defenders and never looks for a team mate. I went to a lot of the youth games where he did seem a great player amongst a bunch of other kids but at tis level he is totally lost. A couple of season of league one football will do him good.

I agree a loan in league one didn't do burn any harm. It's the best thing for him. 

It's funny dembele does nothing but score goals and Woodrow does everything but score goals. Can't we mix them together and make one player!

Has Dembele scored that many goals? sure he was banging them in amongst the kids, but apart from the two gifts he received against Derby, which being honest were more down to defensive errors. I can't actually recall any other goals from him. Woodrow has scored two wonderful goals against Crystal Palace and I think it was Rotherham. Neither of them really get many opportunities but of the two of them Woodrow has made a much better account of himself. He is also English so if he gets really good he could fetch us a nice transfer fee.

I agree with you. I was just basing it on their styles. Dembele is meant to be a goal scorer and Woodrow is more of a work horse. I don't think either can be depended on for goals but Woodrow certainly performs better and has the greater potential to me.

For sure, I would like to see Woodrow get a few more sub appearances. I think he is the type of player that in a few years time will be a huge asset.

This thread has taken quite a detour.

[Black, White and Fred]

Completely agree about dembele. For me he is over hyped and over rated. I like amore though but I'm pleased I'm not the only one who doesn't appreciate what Dembele is supposed to bring.

Dembele is only 18... cant really be under-hyped at that age, only over.

He certainly can be overrated by some, but again, he is only 18 and has barely started any senior games, wait and see what happens, not sure he is supposed to/expected to bring much to the table quite yet.

If that's the case he shouldn't be at our table. He should be at a league 1 teams table doing the business there before he is ready to come to our table and offer something. If we have room in our team for a player that is "just" a goal scorer as snarks pointed out then surely Trotta deserves his chance.

For me Dembele offers nothing but the odd goal when he is presented with a gift that any player could knock in. He is weak on the ball when up against championship level defenders and never looks for a team mate. I went to a lot of the youth games where he did seem a great player amongst a bunch of other kids but at tis level he is totally lost. A couple of season of league one football will do him good.

I agree a loan in league one didn't do burn any harm. It's the best thing for him. 

It's funny dembele does nothing but score goals and Woodrow does everything but score goals. Can't we mix them together and make one player!

Or play them together? Maybe in the FA cup depending on who we draw?

[snarks]

Well reading Fridays Fulham Stuff on here, I think we can forget about Amore coming back into the team for a while

So it's Staf at LB, with anyone of Kav, G Williams or Fofana infront of him.

[Skatzoffc]

I think Hutchinson did well against Brighton, Grimmer was ok and a slight improvement on zverotic but he got caught out quite a few times and better opposition would punish us next time. Hoogland isn't brilliant at defending but he offers a lot going forward and although I like my full backs to be able to defend before attacking he's our best option when weighting up the pros and cons. Grimmer voser and zverotic aren't any better defensively and none are capable of joining attack like hoogland.

At left back I can see why some aren't sure of amore but for me he's one of our best crossers especially from deep and hes a decent defender. Stafylidis is poor at crossing and the system we normally play means the  wider players tuck in and the fullbacks do the crossing. Plus his height offers more at set pieces at both ends of the pitch than stafylidis or kavanagh.

I think people are forgetting how terrible Brighton were, only Bolton were worse this season and we weren't much better. So even though Hutchinson played decent, a better team like Watford would destroy him because he isn't quite good enough. Burn is the better player. If all our players are fit we need to be playing our strongest team and making the most of it. It's a long season and players like hutch, Grimmer etc will be handy and get their chances but whilst our best players are available we need to be playing them. We're playing catch up and can't afford to rest people until january

                           Bettinelli
Hoogland     Bod          Burn        Amore

                             Parker
             LVC                            Williams
                             Ruiz

                   Mcormack
                                       Hugo

I this no that's what Kit will pick Danby.