wc final, a day late but could not believe what I just read.

[jarv]

The dutch have gone down quite a lot in my estimation. I think the final was OK. I think (and enjoyed) the way they got stuck in and the pace of the game. However, this morning, I read about their complaints about the ref. (Webb). The manager said "he did not control the game". Kutyt blamed him for their loss. By today's standards, the dutch were lucky not to have 8 players left on the field. The lad who put his studs into an opponents chest would have been gone. Any other day, any other game. The worst challenge since that German goallie (Schummaker) did the frenchman years ago.

[Lighthouse]

I love the way they blame the ref for mistakes he made, the corner that was given as a goal kick seemed to be the only real mistake. Others are just down to refs decisions. But the goal came SOME time after. The Dutch don't seem to blame themselves for poor defending or thanking the ref for still having ten men on the pitch.How far back to they want to go?

Never a fan of the ref but he did ok and tried to keep the players on the pitch.

[TheDaddy]

The dutch lad should have gone.The spaniards had the gall  to complain that he should have played the advantage.Christ Alonso was assaulted.As for the game can only comment on the first half , I went to bed.

[finnster01]

I don't care, but I don't like Howard Webb at all.

Most overrated ref since Graham Poll.

[Jimbobob]

 :dft007: :dft008: :dft008: :dft007:

Webb was awful the game was awful it was just awful.......terrible end to the World Cup......too many cards...one time a foul next time a yellow card...two completely unlikeable teams by the end it was so bad all around... :52: :52: :52:

[Rambling_Syd_Rumpo]

The Dutch just ran out of ideas so they started to kick the Spannish,that Van Bommel should come over here and try being the hard man against teams like Bolton & Blackburn,that'll send him cry to his Mamma 

[vagrant]

Isn't it about time the multi millionaire footballers started taking responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming it all on the convenient scapegoat, the ref.

[finnster01]

Isn't it about time the multi millionaire footballers started taking responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming it all on the convenient scapegoat, the ref.

Mr Vagrant,
Agree. But don't you think it is about time the Prem takes some of their billions and put it into the ref's to make sure they get regular eye tests, can run a mile without barfing (other than their annual test which is the only thing they actually really train for), and actually get some proper man-management skills taught to them? I would think a few bob thrown the ref's way would be money well spent by the Prem.

You would think that the Prem could do better than having the odd part-time police officer from Yorkshire or electrician running around with a whistle every Saturday.

[NogoodBoyo]

I'm surprised to see that some thought the football was poor.  Spain's midfield play was breath-taking.  My god, the way Inafiesta and Chavi received the ball in thong-sized space, moved, orchestrated, passed and ran was a thing of extraordinary beauty.  As others have said, the game was marred by one thing and one thing only - the Dutcher's flagrant, brutal and persistent fowling.  The destroyed the game.  In fact, it was remarkable that Spain kept any kind of composure after such a cynical exercise in play-stopping.  The stream of yellow cards was the only factor that stopped the game degenerating into a forest of fisticuffs and kung fu in clogs.
The Dutch have gone down, deep down in the eyes of the world.  On the other hand, I could only dream of seeing that Spanish skill week in week out.
Nogood "muy bueno, isit" Boyo

[HatterDon]

I'm surprised to see that some thought the football was poor.  Spain's midfield play was breath-taking.  My god, the way Inafiesta and Chavi received the ball in thong-sized space, moved, orchestrated, passed and ran was a thing of extraordinary beauty.  As others have said, the game was marred by one thing and one thing only - the Dutcher's flagrant, brutal and persistent fowling.  The destroyed the game.  In fact, it was remarkable that Spain kept any kind of composure after such a cynical exercise in play-stopping.  The stream of yellow cards was the only factor that stopped the game degenerating into a forest of fisticuffs and kung fu in clogs.
The Dutch have gone down, deep down in the eyes of the world.  On the other hand, I could only dream of seeing that Spanish skill week in week out.
Nogood "muy bueno, isit" Boyo

+1, sir. I haven't seen a national team play that consiistently brilliant in decades -- and all the former teams combining discipline, artistry, skill, individual daring, and a solid team concept played in blue, yellow, and green.

I watched A LOT of the World Cup and saw some cracking football and some decent officiating. It's comforting to see the best footballing side in the world win this competition, especially after some of the most recent iterations.

[vagrant]

Mr Finnster.

It goes deeper than that.  We get the benefit of a dozen different views from all angles thanks to tv.

Actually there was an interesting point made on 5 live today by John Inverdale (rugby man) on video technology.  He said it would take 10 seconds for the 4th official to make a decision on a foul, penalty etc.  Opponents to video technology say this would interupt the flow of the game, but think how much time is lost when the ref gives a decision and is then chased around the pitch by players of both teams before the match can be restarted.  That can sometimes take a couple of minutes and I don't think we ever take into account just how much that interupts the flow of the game.

[Rupert]

I think it would be a wonderful idea if all the managers and players who criticise the ref were obliged to go through the referee's course, which is basically all about the laws of the game that they play at a professional level and are thus likely to be pretty well up on already, yes?
Actually, probably not, a friend of mine used to be the lucky so-and-so who got to teach the young professionals at Luton Town FC the laws of the game, he said he could see them fiddling with their mobile phones or gazing out of the window as he went through the laws, clearly not interested. It is why the likes of Colins John will forever be caught standing in an offside position, and rather than catching on that maybe staying onside would be more productive, he will continue standing offside and waving his arms in irritation every time the lino raises the flag. It is why a player who clobbers an opponent whilst also collecting the ball will continue to react in dismay as he gets a yellow card, protesting that he got the ball and completely missing the point that you are not supposed to collect your opponent too. Far easier to blame the ref for spoiling the game.

Anyway, once they do the course, ask them to take, and pass, the referee exam. Then send them out to do a couple of Sunday morning games. Then ask them how easy the job is.

I heard someone on the radio ask Alan Green, that paragon of footballing knowledge, if he had taken the referee course, as he is so fond of ref bashing. He replied that he had not and that he had no intention of wasting his time in doing so.
I can see his point, it is far easier to criticise from a position of ignorance, rather than realise that the ref may get one or two decisions wrong, and sadly they can be important errors, but he makes a hell of a lot fewer mistakes than the twenty two others on the pitch.

I heard an excellent speaker, a few years ago, really tear into Andy Gray. He played a snippet from a match commentary (he had quite a few to choose from), two players went for the ball, one went down in a heap, the ref hit the whistle, foul. Gray was up in arms, a terrible decision, the ref needs to let the game flow, (first replay) look, you can clearly see the tackle was good, the ball is cleanly won (second replay, different angle), yes there is a little contact, but only after the ball has been won, (third replay, ten seconds or so after the decision has been made) oh, yes, he just catches the player with his trailing foot before getting the ball, well, the referee only just got that one right.
Yes, Andy, only just got it right, while you got it completely wrong, and kept on getting it wrong for ten seconds and three viewings of the incident.

A few years ago we had 33,000 referees in this country, of whom the likes of Halsey et al were the best of the crop. Now I think the number is closer to 25,000, so a smaller pool to pick from. Inevitably the quality will decline as this happens. Making the top refs fully professional was never going to eliminate all the mistakes, God knows we see more than our fair share at the Cottage, maybe people are starting to realise this now.
Professional refs may not be the answer, a wider pool to pick from may be.

[vagrant]

I think it would be a wonderful idea if all the managers and players who criticise the ref were obliged to go through the referee's course, which is basically all about the laws of the game that they play at a professional level and are thus likely to be pretty well up on already, yes?
Actually, probably not, a friend of mine used to be the lucky so-and-so who got to teach the young professionals at Luton Town FC the laws of the game, he said he could see them fiddling with their mobile phones or gazing out of the window as he went through the laws, clearly not interested. It is why the likes of Colins John will forever be caught standing in an offside position, and rather than catching on that maybe staying onside would be more productive, he will continue standing offside and waving his arms in irritation every time the lino raises the flag. It is why a player who clobbers an opponent whilst also collecting the ball will continue to react in dismay as he gets a yellow card, protesting that he got the ball and completely missing the point that you are not supposed to collect your opponent too. Far easier to blame the ref for spoiling the game.

Anyway, once they do the course, ask them to take, and pass, the referee exam. Then send them out to do a couple of Sunday morning games. Then ask them how easy the job is.

I heard someone on the radio ask Alan Green, that paragon of footballing knowledge, if he had taken the referee course, as he is so fond of ref bashing. He replied that he had not and that he had no intention of wasting his time in doing so.
I can see his point, it is far easier to criticise from a position of ignorance, rather than realise that the ref may get one or two decisions wrong, and sadly they can be important errors, but he makes a hell of a lot fewer mistakes than the twenty two others on the pitch.

I heard an excellent speaker, a few years ago, really tear into Andy Gray. He played a snippet from a match commentary (he had quite a few to choose from), two players went for the ball, one went down in a heap, the ref hit the whistle, foul. Gray was up in arms, a terrible decision, the ref needs to let the game flow, (first replay) look, you can clearly see the tackle was good, the ball is cleanly won (second replay, different angle), yes there is a little contact, but only after the ball has been won, (third replay, ten seconds or so after the decision has been made) oh, yes, he just catches the player with his trailing foot before getting the ball, well, the referee only just got that one right.
Yes, Andy, only just got it right, while you got it completely wrong, and kept on getting it wrong for ten seconds and three viewings of the incident.

A few years ago we had 33,000 referees in this country, of whom the likes of Halsey et al were the best of the crop. Now I think the number is closer to 25,000, so a smaller pool to pick from. Inevitably the quality will decline as this happens. Making the top refs fully professional was never going to eliminate all the mistakes, God knows we see more than our fair share at the Cottage, maybe people are starting to realise this now.
Professional refs may not be the answer, a wider pool to pick from may be.

Excellent post.

[finnster01]

Massive cop out, Mr Rupert.
Our refs are crap and it is because they don't get educated, don't do it for a living, can't really get relegated but get the odd the smacks on the finger and off to League two for a couple of weeks you go.

Until there is some sense of accountability introduced to the refs, they're never going to give a sh1t. Do you think Howard Webb gives a crap? He just picked up well north of 80K for doing nothing and getting most of it all wrong. If the Prem had paid him and his team properly, educated him beyond "I am a copper and you don't talk back to me son" but actually taught what constitutes a corner and not makes a mistake that decides the world cup.

If Howard Webb is our best referee, than I must surely be Albert Einstein.

The problem is exactly the fact that the clubs & the league takes all the money, don't give a fart about having a decent referee, don't give a fart about nurturing and building home grown talents, and last but not least, don't give a FLYING fart about the fans.

What other business can you think of where 1 person is managing 22 millionaires every odd week and is a part time plumber (and that is not meant as any disrespect to any full-time plumbers, although they all seem to be Polish these days)?

Disaster waiting to happen.  The league is to be blamed 100% :028:  :014: :014: :014: :014: :014: And the sad thing, the reffing is getting worse year-on-year. I can wait to see next season's Monthy Python Flying Circus of Refereeing.

And don't even get me started on the players, they are a bunch of overpaid idiots, but the league knows that as well.

And it wouldn't be that hard to fix. Pierluigi Collina was excellent, but what did they do to him? Forced him to retire...

[alfie]

I don't think Webb had much choice unfortunately the only real mistake he made was by not sending off a Dutch player earlier.

Players like Kuyt should be made to look at each booking and give his reasons why the player should not have been booked, i am pretty sure he would be quite surprised, it is a shame that they can't just say they lost the game through their own indicipline and the best team currently in the world won fair and square.

The only team that play like Spain in the premiership is Arsenal very similar sort of style.

[ScalleysDad]

I think it would be a wonderful idea if all the managers and players who criticise the ref were obliged to go through the referee's course, which is basically all about the laws of the game that they play at a professional level and are thus likely to be pretty well up on already, yes?
Actually, probably not, a friend of mine used to be the lucky so-and-so who got to teach the young professionals at Luton Town FC the laws of the game, he said he could see them fiddling with their mobile phones or gazing out of the window as he went through the laws, clearly not interested. It is why the likes of Colins John will forever be caught standing in an offside position, and rather than catching on that maybe staying onside would be more productive, he will continue standing offside and waving his arms in irritation every time the lino raises the flag. It is why a player who clobbers an opponent whilst also collecting the ball will continue to react in dismay as he gets a yellow card, protesting that he got the ball and completely missing the point that you are not supposed to collect your opponent too. Far easier to blame the ref for spoiling the game.

Anyway, once they do the course, ask them to take, and pass, the referee exam. Then send them out to do a couple of Sunday morning games. Then ask them how easy the job is.

I heard someone on the radio ask Alan Green, that paragon of footballing knowledge, if he had taken the referee course, as he is so fond of ref bashing. He replied that he had not and that he had no intention of wasting his time in doing so.
I can see his point, it is far easier to criticise from a position of ignorance, rather than realise that the ref may get one or two decisions wrong, and sadly they can be important errors, but he makes a hell of a lot fewer mistakes than the twenty two others on the pitch.

I heard an excellent speaker, a few years ago, really tear into Andy Gray. He played a snippet from a match commentary (he had quite a few to choose from), two players went for the ball, one went down in a heap, the ref hit the whistle, foul. Gray was up in arms, a terrible decision, the ref needs to let the game flow, (first replay) look, you can clearly see the tackle was good, the ball is cleanly won (second replay, different angle), yes there is a little contact, but only after the ball has been won, (third replay, ten seconds or so after the decision has been made) oh, yes, he just catches the player with his trailing foot before getting the ball, well, the referee only just got that one right.
Yes, Andy, only just got it right, while you got it completely wrong, and kept on getting it wrong for ten seconds and three viewings of the incident.

A few years ago we had 33,000 referees in this country, of whom the likes of Halsey et al were the best of the crop. Now I think the number is closer to 25,000, so a smaller pool to pick from. Inevitably the quality will decline as this happens. Making the top refs fully professional was never going to eliminate all the mistakes, God knows we see more than our fair share at the Cottage, maybe people are starting to realise this now.
Professional refs may not be the answer, a wider pool to pick from may be.

:clap_hands: :clap_hands:

excellent post plus one. I did the refs course, level three it was then, about fifteen years ago. Two years ago we took some prime candidates from the Girls Development Squad at Exeter City to a bona fide, FA run course and it was woeful. The same handouts, the dated book with Kevin Keegan on the front and an OHP aimed at a wall. Part of the Root and Branch review was supposed to deal with this and offer a new course to inspire ............................ oh well ! 

[Rupert]

I don't quite follow your arguement here, Finnester.

You seem to be saying the top refs are part time. You may have information that I don't, but I was under the impression that they are full time. This was the whole arguement in favour of making them "professional" five or six years ago. I recall that the Harrow School Housemaster, David Ellery, was the only one of the elite who refused a professional contract, and at the end of the season he had the top marks (that's not some weak attempt at a pun, by the way).

They certainly do get a refereeing education. When you qualify, you get in at the bottom of the pyramid. Sunday mornings, Saturday afternoon pub sides. Getting promoted to higher leagues at that stage is fairly straight forward, you just put the games in and make yourself available. You then get assessed, usually by senior refs who give you crappy reviews, often about things you had no control over, but you are expected to take it in and carry on. You apply for promotion. More assessments, you have study evenings to go to, both physical and mental tests to pass, still not too difficult at this stage.
Now you are getting somewhere and, if you are in your late twenties, bad news, you are probably too old to make it to the top, if younger then push on. Up the pyramid you go, doing middles in your league and lines in a higher league. If the local FA thinks you can go far they may appoint a mentor to help you. More tests, more assessments, all the way to the Premiership and UEFA.
It takes a long time, you have to show an awful lot of people that you know what you are doing, you have to be a bit lucky, you do have to be pretty good.
A few years ago I was chatting to an assessor at a Fulham game, senior Bedfordshire ref (he was one of the linesmen when we had the Walsall half time protest, Barry Firmin is his name), We had drawn a game we expected to win (under Keegan I think, might have been Persil) and I was a bit hacked off with the ref, Barry gave me his verdict- the man had refereed without fear or favour. Stopped me in my tracks. I had a really long think about what he said, and to be honest, I still had it in for the ref, but that is because I'm a fan and it can be very hard for a fan to see what a neutral does. Barry did have a point, however much I wanted to disagree, and we had mainly failed to win because we were not good enough that day.

Man management- sometimes "I'm in charge, shut up and play" IS the only response, because, as I said before, players at all levels DON'T know the rules. I had a player have a right go at me once because I had not given a foul in his favour just outside his own penalty area. I tried to explain, he didn't want to listen. In the end his captain came back and told him to shut up, the ref had waved play on as there was a fantastic advantage and they had won a corner from it.
He still whinged after that at every decision, until I booked him, after which he shut up (the captain told him he was an idiot for that too). Man management can be counterproductive when dealing with idiots, and a lot of players are idiots. Remember Ladyboy in the Man U game eighteen months ago? You or I or anyone else would have quickly twigged that the theatricals wouldn't work that day, he didn't. Result, he got booked and Rooney walked.

You ask about accountability. Sticky subject, this. You put a small group of top refs on 50 grand a year, plus another couple of grand for each game they referee. You tell them they are professional and must not do other jobs (not sure how that works under EU employment laws). Hey, presto, they never make another mistake. Oh, except they do. Right, punish them! How?
Drop them off the list for a couple of weeks? They do that now.
Sack them? Hmm, aside from the fun the employment tribunal would be, imagine you did fire the top couple of refs. Who do you replace them with? The next best? Seems to defeat the whole idea of having an elite, but you then tell someone earning a fair wedge as a barrister or head teacher or, yes, senior copper, to give up their twenty year career for a stint as a top ref with the guarantee that if they cock up you will ditch them.
Somehow, I don't see the next best group rushing to embrace that sort of employment opportunity.
By that reasoning, Bobby Zamora would have been sacked eighteen months ago for a couple of pretty appalling misses with the goal at his mercy. Rob Green would no longer be allowed to ply his trade as a professional footballer for his howler letting Clint's shot in. Chris Baird would have been hounded out of professional football for his defensive displays in Sanchez's team.
Everyone in football makes mistakes. Some you notice, some you don't. Some mistakes effect the result, some don't. Some are made by referees, some by players or managers.

I will resist the urge to call you Albert, but Webb probably is our best ref, or at least in the top three. Who are the main competetors? Who would you place above him? He may have called a corner wrong, I've done that, I know because the team that profited from the mistake told me after the final whistle. I didn't know at the time. If I had, I would have changed my decision. So would Webb. Did that corner decide the World Cup? How about failing to send off the Dutch player who put his studs in the Spaniard's chest? Walking him would surely have handed the game to the Spanish. So, two mistakes, you could argue they evened out, and that the worst mistake favoured the eventual losers.

I repeat what I said in the earlier post, the standard of refereeing will not improve unless and until you have more young referees coming through the ranks to improve the gene pool. The problem is, a lot of good young refs drop out of the game, partially because of the FA and county FAs, those geniuses lost about 8,000 referees with one monumentally stupid decision about five years ago and we are still reaping the repercussions from that. Also, partly from the constant criticism. From fans, players, armchair experts, etc. People who have never taken up the whistle themselves. People who will never take it up. That's why I'd like to see them give it a try. The players and managers, anyway. It just might make them think.
And yes, I fully agree, we will see some horrendous cock ups next season.

[finnster01]

You are making some valid points there Mr Rupert.

However, I still like to see them (The Prem):
a) Pay the Prem refs more so there are no questions regarding integrity, and it truly is a 100% full time job (like that fool, forgot his name,  who ran his business on the side and even managed to create a conflict of interest). The league can afford to do that.
b) Introduce much more of real accountability. A couple of weeks in League Two is not the answer when everyone knows it is only temporary and you are only missing a small paycheck. Make it something that really means something.
c) Howard Webb is far too card happy, and had he taken control of the final early on, this would not have been necessary. i.e. Used Proper Man Management. Cards obviously didn't solve the problem. Also, everyone all of a sudden seems to have forgotten his awful match (Spain vs the Swiss), where he got blasted by the Spanish players and media. To me, it looked like he was ignoring all the Spanish diving to make it up to them. You should not ref the same team twice in the same major tournament. That is a bad idea.
d) There's got to be more we can do educate our refs. Maybe more talent to choose from will help, but when it is all run like an Old England's Boy's Club with the odd slap on your wrist followed by the old "Tally Ho, Old Chap, Tally Ho") we will never get anywhere anytime fast.

[jarv]

Rupert,
That is a brilliant analysis. I am too tired to write something as long but in essence, agree with most of your comments. I took the referee test when I got to America in 1998. The money is OK, about $60 a game for high school and you can get up to 6 games a week. I was 40 and wanted fast track to college games (about $150 a game) but was unable to engineer that.
I can tell everyone, it is a real learning experience. the abuse!!! As an ex half way decent player who fancied himself as the next Billy Bremner, I didn't mind the abuse. I have sworn at a few refs in my time.

One game I recall, 18 year olds, team A had a decent centre forward but kept using his elbows in the box. After two incidents, I told him if he scores in those circumstances it won't count so stop it. He did, and had a fine game. I did not give a free kick for the two incidents because the ball was cleared.
Towards the end of the game, I made a real howler. loose ball at the corner of the box, defender under no pressure, ball took a bad bounce and he hand balled it. I blew. It was 2-2 with 2 minutes left. There was no way a penalty was desreved so I gave a free kick on the edge (knowing it was just inside). To my relief, the lad who took it smacked it straight in the top corner.
Anyway, final whistle and one of the parents almost attacked me. His son was the best player on the losing team. I had my fists clenched, just in case
I said to him, just enjoy your son's performance. Still a bit worried thugh, he muttered a few obcenities and walked away.  The joys of being a referee.
It is NOT EASY.

[NogoodBoyo]

My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the....REFEREEEEE!
Football is not mortally wounded by bad refereeing, but it is hurt very badly by footballers' total control of the refereeing process.  Back-chat, swearing at the ref, diving, faking, yellow card inducements, red card inducements....the list goes on and on.
The solution is easy.  Any venomous reaction to a free-kick decision by anyone other than the captain, the kick should be moved 10 yards (or metres) up the field.  And so on..and so on.  You could even have free-kicks in the penalty area (very interesting concept that).  Or perhaps it should automatically become a penalty? 
The whingeing, cry-baby, aggressive schtocktanking would soon go, the game would be more attractive and the players (and fans!!!) would learn to shut the eff up.
I risk ridicule for stating the obvious that it's already been done successfully in rugby and you don't get these endless excuses, arguments, time-wasting and referee bashing in that game.

Nogood "no referee, no game, isit" Boyo