Referee

[Southcoastffc]

I don't think there's much I can usefully add to what has been said already about last night's poor showing, but as an aside, wasn't that referee (Keith Hill) awful?   From the off Dembele was given the run around physically by his marker and in trying to 'fight' on equal terms caught the ref's eye and was in trouble from then on.   Mr Hill seemed to me to want to show that he was the most important man on the pitch - never a good thing for a ref.  I hope we don't see him again this year.    Not at all an excuse for our poor performance though.

[bill taylors apprentice]

A side issue, but I agree.

Most ref's just see the game differently than we do even allowing for our bias.

Not the first time Dembele has been "played" the the defender and you would have thought someone in the illustrious coaching staff would have helped him be a bit more cute in these situations.

Once he was booked he looked like he knew he was one foul away from getting sent off. Well done to the "coaching" of Leeds and shame on the pathetic response from our coaching staff!

[leonffc]

A side issue, but I agree.

Most ref's just see the game differently than we do even allowing for our bias.

Not the first time Dembele has been "played" the the defender and you would have thought someone in the illustrious coaching staff would have helped him be a bit more cute in these situations.

Once he was booked he looked like he knew he was one foul away from getting sent off. Well done to the "coaching" of Leeds and shame on the pathetic response from our coaching staff!

Its nothing to do with coaching.
Through out the ages of football its common practice for an old centre half to bully the young opponent. Whether its Sunday league or the Premier league, a young centre forward will always get a rough ride. Leeds coaches haven't coached that to the CB, it's something he has learned through his career, if anything its something he picked up by playing alongside an older partner probably.
And you cant blame our coaches either, unless you want a training session with Budorov kicking lumps out of Dembele. This is what is known in the game as 'experience'. Dembele will learn in time to deal with things like this as his body and brain adapts to the game more.

On a slight side note, on one of my coaching courses there was an older guy that was a professional at Sporting Lisbon back in the day. As an 18 year old he was playing in a reserve / B game or what ever they have and he said there was an older centre back that had a pin tucked in his waistband. Every time the bloke backed in or got near the centre back he got stabbed and the referee was having none of it despite the pin pricks everywhere.
"What did you do in the end?" we asked. "clumped him and got sent off"!! He won. It the dark arts of the game and all about learning!

[Ordar]

I thought the ref allowed Leeds to bully us, and as we know we aren't able to compete with physical teams.

[Barry White]

Having just seen the replay the penalty was very harsh, I didn't know what it was for at the time and how he can give that as handball is beyond me. Clear case of ball to arm and it even gave them an advantage as it dropped to a Leeds player.

Their keeper was well inside his area when he blocked Fredericks shot so that was a good call because like many others I thought he was outside the area.

Fredericks dive for his penalty was also a no go for me and another good call.

[bill taylors apprentice]

A side issue, but I agree.

Most ref's just see the game differently than we do even allowing for our bias.

Not the first time Dembele has been "played" the the defender and you would have thought someone in the illustrious coaching staff would have helped him be a bit more cute in these situations.

Once he was booked he looked like he knew he was one foul away from getting sent off. Well done to the "coaching" of Leeds and shame on the pathetic response from our coaching staff!

Its nothing to do with coaching.
Through out the ages of football its common practice for an old centre half to bully the young opponent. Whether its Sunday league or the Premier league, a young centre forward will always get a rough ride. Leeds coaches haven't coached that to the CB, it's something he has learned through his career, if anything its something he picked up by playing alongside an older partner probably.
And you cant blame our coaches either, unless you want a training session with Budorov kicking lumps out of Dembele. This is what is known in the game as 'experience'. Dembele will learn in time to deal with things like this as his body and brain adapts to the game more.

On a slight side note, on one of my coaching courses there was an older guy that was a professional at Sporting Lisbon back in the day. As an 18 year old he was playing in a reserve / B game or what ever they have and he said there was an older centre back that had a pin tucked in his waistband. Every time the bloke backed in or got near the centre back he got stabbed and the referee was having none of it despite the pin pricks everywhere.
"What did you do in the end?" we asked. "clumped him and got sent off"!! He won. It the dark arts of the game and all about learning!

Firstly, the Leeds coaching staff were constantly going on about Demeble fouling their delicate flower at centre half.

It may not have been a plan as such, just their collective experience in exploiting an inexperienced opponent, and good on them.

And its got everything to do with coaching, as I'm sure you know the use of one to one discussions to improve
the individuals skills and performance is key.
He was left to get on with it and clearly didn't know how to deal with it once he was booked and he got no help from the coaches.

Your description of what a session may look like eg "kicking lumps out" misses the point, maybe you need to reassess the definition of coaching?

[Bill2]

I don't think there's much I can usefully add to what has been said already about last night's poor showing, but as an aside, wasn't that referee (Keith Hill) awful?   From the off Dembele was given the run around physically by his marker and in trying to 'fight' on equal terms caught the ref's eye and was in trouble from then on.   Mr Hill seemed to me to want to show that he was the most important man on the pitch - never a good thing for a ref.  I hope we don't see him again this year.    Not at all an excuse for our poor performance though.

Dembele is a big lad and he needs to show the centre half he can also be cute, one of the things centre halves didn't like was an aggressive centre forward. So what he needs to do is, go down like  ton of bricks when the centre half comes near him, get up and limp a bit but before that really clump the centre half early in the game, that will show he is not to be messed with and as it is in the first part of the game is less likely to get booking.

[leonffc]

A side issue, but I agree.

Most ref's just see the game differently than we do even allowing for our bias.

Not the first time Dembele has been "played" the the defender and you would have thought someone in the illustrious coaching staff would have helped him be a bit more cute in these situations.

Once he was booked he looked like he knew he was one foul away from getting sent off. Well done to the "coaching" of Leeds and shame on the pathetic response from our coaching staff!

Its nothing to do with coaching.
Through out the ages of football its common practice for an old centre half to bully the young opponent. Whether its Sunday league or the Premier league, a young centre forward will always get a rough ride. Leeds coaches haven't coached that to the CB, it's something he has learned through his career, if anything its something he picked up by playing alongside an older partner probably.
And you cant blame our coaches either, unless you want a training session with Budorov kicking lumps out of Dembele. This is what is known in the game as 'experience'. Dembele will learn in time to deal with things like this as his body and brain adapts to the game more.

On a slight side note, on one of my coaching courses there was an older guy that was a professional at Sporting Lisbon back in the day. As an 18 year old he was playing in a reserve / B game or what ever they have and he said there was an older centre back that had a pin tucked in his waistband. Every time the bloke backed in or got near the centre back he got stabbed and the referee was having none of it despite the pin pricks everywhere.
"What did you do in the end?" we asked. "clumped him and got sent off"!! He won. It the dark arts of the game and all about learning!

Firstly, the Leeds coaching staff were constantly going on about Demeble fouling their delicate flower at centre half.

It may not have been a plan as such, just their collective experience in exploiting an inexperienced opponent, and good on them.

And its got everything to do with coaching, as I'm sure you know the use of one to one discussions to improve
the individuals skills and performance is key.
He was left to get on with it and clearly didn't know how to deal with it once he was booked and he got no help from the coaches.

Your description of what a session may look like eg "kicking lumps out" misses the point, maybe you need to reassess the definition of coaching?

I get what you are saying but Dembele has played the majority of his games at U21 level where it's not as competitive, or at least his opposition defenders aren't as experienced so this is where he will get better with time. One to one chats at training won't prepare him for game experience. They may help but it's a different environment. 
As for 'coaching' from the side line, well what Leeds were doing wasn't coaching, it was simply drawing Dembeles actions to the attention of the referee and yes, our staff could have stuck up for him or instructed him a little but this is where you need your captain / experienced leaders alongside you. They are the ones in the trenches with you, the ones that can back you up, calm you down, and get you through the game.
I wasn't there last night but this is where McCormack as strike partner and captain should be earning his corn. He can see what's going on and he can approach the referee to ask for protection. He is supposed to be guiding the young players through the game. As the saying goes, 'once the players cross that white line........'

[bill taylors apprentice]

I don't think there's much I can usefully add to what has been said already about last night's poor showing, but as an aside, wasn't that referee (Keith Hill) awful?   From the off Dembele was given the run around physically by his marker and in trying to 'fight' on equal terms caught the ref's eye and was in trouble from then on.   Mr Hill seemed to me to want to show that he was the most important man on the pitch - never a good thing for a ref.  I hope we don't see him again this year.    Not at all an excuse for our poor performance though.

Dembele is a big lad and he needs to show the centre half he can also be cute, one of the things centre halves didn't like was an aggressive centre forward. So what he needs to do is, go down like  ton of bricks when the centre half comes near him, get up and limp a bit but before that really clump the centre half early in the game, that will show he is not to be messed with and as it is in the first part of the game is less likely to get booking.

[/b][/size]

I agree and if he needs to be told and shown how to do it subtly then that's "coaching" and its better than hoping he will wake up one day in the future having worked it out for himself.
Experience gained in the future will only enhance any coaching.

[Southcoastffc]

A side issue, but I agree.

Most ref's just see the game differently than we do even allowing for our bias.

Not the first time Dembele has been "played" the the defender and you would have thought someone in the illustrious coaching staff would have helped him be a bit more cute in these situations.

Once he was booked he looked like he knew he was one foul away from getting sent off. Well done to the "coaching" of Leeds and shame on the pathetic response from our coaching staff!

Its nothing to do with coaching.
Through out the ages of football its common practice for an old centre half to bully the young opponent. Whether its Sunday league or the Premier league, a young centre forward will always get a rough ride. Leeds coaches haven't coached that to the CB, it's something he has learned through his career, if anything its something he picked up by playing alongside an older partner probably.
And you cant blame our coaches either, unless you want a training session with Budorov kicking lumps out of Dembele. This is what is known in the game as 'experience'. Dembele will learn in time to deal with things like this as his body and brain adapts to the game more.

On a slight side note, on one of my coaching courses there was an older guy that was a professional at Sporting Lisbon back in the day. As an 18 year old he was playing in a reserve / B game or what ever they have and he said there was an older centre back that had a pin tucked in his waistband. Every time the bloke backed in or got near the centre back he got stabbed and the referee was having none of it despite the pin pricks everywhere.
"What did you do in the end?" we asked. "clumped him and got sent off"!! He won. It the dark arts of the game and all about learning!

Firstly, the Leeds coaching staff were constantly going on about Demeble fouling their delicate flower at centre half.

It may not have been a plan as such, just their collective experience in exploiting an inexperienced opponent, and good on them.

And its got everything to do with coaching, as I'm sure you know the use of one to one discussions to improve
the individuals skills and performance is key.
He was left to get on with it and clearly didn't know how to deal with it once he was booked and he got no help from the coaches.

Your description of what a session may look like eg "kicking lumps out" misses the point, maybe you need to reassess the definition of coaching?

I get what you are saying but Dembele has played the majority of his games at U21 level where it's not as competitive, or at least his opposition defenders aren't as experienced so this is where he will get better with time. One to one chats at training won't prepare him for game experience. They may help but it's a different environment. 
As for 'coaching' from the side line, well what Leeds were doing wasn't coaching, it was simply drawing Dembeles actions to the attention of the referee and yes, our staff could have stuck up for him or instructed him a little but this is where you need your captain / experienced leaders alongside you. They are the ones in the trenches with you, the ones that can back you up, calm you down, and get you through the game.
I wasn't there last night but this is where McCormack as strike partner and captain should be earning his corn. He can see what's going on and he can approach the referee to ask for protection. He is supposed to be guiding the young players through the game. As the saying goes, 'once the players cross that white line........'

I wasn't there last night but this is where McCormack as strike partner and captain should be earning his corn. He can see what's going on and he can approach the referee to ask for protection. He is supposed to be guiding the young players through the game.

To be fair to McCormack, he did seem to be trying to talk to the ref.  So was Stearman.  The ref clearly didn't want to have anyone talking to him.

[leonffc]

A side issue, but I agree.

Most ref's just see the game differently than we do even allowing for our bias.

Not the first time Dembele has been "played" the the defender and you would have thought someone in the illustrious coaching staff would have helped him be a bit more cute in these situations.

Once he was booked he looked like he knew he was one foul away from getting sent off. Well done to the "coaching" of Leeds and shame on the pathetic response from our coaching staff!

Its nothing to do with coaching.
Through out the ages of football its common practice for an old centre half to bully the young opponent. Whether its Sunday league or the Premier league, a young centre forward will always get a rough ride. Leeds coaches haven't coached that to the CB, it's something he has learned through his career, if anything its something he picked up by playing alongside an older partner probably.
And you cant blame our coaches either, unless you want a training session with Budorov kicking lumps out of Dembele. This is what is known in the game as 'experience'. Dembele will learn in time to deal with things like this as his body and brain adapts to the game more.

On a slight side note, on one of my coaching courses there was an older guy that was a professional at Sporting Lisbon back in the day. As an 18 year old he was playing in a reserve / B game or what ever they have and he said there was an older centre back that had a pin tucked in his waistband. Every time the bloke backed in or got near the centre back he got stabbed and the referee was having none of it despite the pin pricks everywhere.
"What did you do in the end?" we asked. "clumped him and got sent off"!! He won. It the dark arts of the game and all about learning!

Firstly, the Leeds coaching staff were constantly going on about Demeble fouling their delicate flower at centre half.

It may not have been a plan as such, just their collective experience in exploiting an inexperienced opponent, and good on them.

And its got everything to do with coaching, as I'm sure you know the use of one to one discussions to improve
the individuals skills and performance is key.
He was left to get on with it and clearly didn't know how to deal with it once he was booked and he got no help from the coaches.

Your description of what a session may look like eg "kicking lumps out" misses the point, maybe you need to reassess the definition of coaching?

I get what you are saying but Dembele has played the majority of his games at U21 level where it's not as competitive, or at least his opposition defenders aren't as experienced so this is where he will get better with time. One to one chats at training won't prepare him for game experience. They may help but it's a different environment. 
As for 'coaching' from the side line, well what Leeds were doing wasn't coaching, it was simply drawing Dembeles actions to the attention of the referee and yes, our staff could have stuck up for him or instructed him a little but this is where you need your captain / experienced leaders alongside you. They are the ones in the trenches with you, the ones that can back you up, calm you down, and get you through the game.
I wasn't there last night but this is where McCormack as strike partner and captain should be earning his corn. He can see what's going on and he can approach the referee to ask for protection. He is supposed to be guiding the young players through the game. As the saying goes, 'once the players cross that white line........'

I wasn't there last night but this is where McCormack as strike partner and captain should be earning his corn. He can see what's going on and he can approach the referee to ask for protection. He is supposed to be guiding the young players through the game.

To be fair to McCormack, he did seem to be trying to talk to the ref.  So was Stearman.  The ref clearly didn't want to have anyone talking to him.

Ok fair play.

[snarks]

I did think the ref was one of the worst I've seen for a long time, the thing that gor me was the inconsitancy, both sterman and moussa were given a hard time by the ref at headers, yet when it was reversed they got nothing.

I still think the Fredricks incident was a penalty, although I will support the ref on that, from behind it looks innocuous, from in front his arm goes across Fredricks face, and his elbow catches him on the cheekbone

[Bill2]

I did think the ref was one of the worst I've seen for a long time, the thing that gor me was the inconsitancy, both sterman and moussa were given a hard time by the ref at headers, yet when it was reversed they got nothing.

I still think the Fredricks incident was a penalty, although I will support the ref on that, from behind it looks innocuous, from in front his arm goes across Fredricks face, and his elbow catches him on the cheekbone

I was in H2 so had a good view of the incident and I thought it was a penalty although the guy behind said no and he thought Fredericks went down rather easily.

[Logicalman]

I looked at the match recording again, in particular the penalty call, again and again, and I still cannot see where the deliberate handball was.

Can anyone shed further light? I know the camera angle isn't the best, but for the life of me, I'm a little lost finding it.

[Freddie Fulham]

Hi Southcoast FFC,

Two things, one I couldn't agree more about the Ref, and we can't blame him, but hope we don't have him again G. Poll mark II. Also likewise I'm on the Southcoast - Selsey..anywhere near there?

[bobbo]

The thread is the ref.
He was awful , I can safely assure as an ex ref they are NEVER biased but many of them are'nt up to it , and he wasn't . Even the Leeds fans didn't recon him.

[Southcoastffc]

Hi Southcoast FFC,

Two things, one I couldn't agree more about the Ref, and we can't blame him, but hope we don't have him again G. Poll mark II. Also likewise I'm on the Southcoast - Selsey..anywhere near there?

Hi Freddie - Rustington near Littlehampton.  Keep posting!

[Whitesideup]

Having just seen the replay the penalty was very harsh, I didn't know what it was for at the time and how he can give that as handball is beyond me. Clear case of ball to arm and it even gave them an advantage as it dropped to a Leeds player.

Their keeper was well inside his area when he blocked Fredericks shot so that was a good call because like many others I thought he was outside the area.

Fredericks dive for his penalty was also a no go for me and another good call.

Are you saying the arm being thrown across him was not a foul? I was right behind it .. this was a powerful arm coming across him. Now could he have stayed up? possibly but he would have been severely impeded and would have had zero chance of getting the ball. And he had every right to go down under that challenge. We all know that unless you do, the referee will NEVER give it because they bottle all the big decisions. That was an absolute stone wall penalty .. live and on the replay. The player was beaten and he deliberately impeded Fredericks. I really don't get your "it was a good call". Don't get it at all.   

[HatterDon]

A side issue, but I agree.

Most ref's just see the game differently than we do even allowing for our bias.

Not the first time Dembele has been "played" the the defender and you would have thought someone in the illustrious coaching staff would have helped him be a bit more cute in these situations.

Once he was booked he looked like he knew he was one foul away from getting sent off. Well done to the "coaching" of Leeds and shame on the pathetic response from our coaching staff!

Its nothing to do with coaching.
Through out the ages of football its common practice for an old centre half to bully the young opponent. Whether its Sunday league or the Premier league, a young centre forward will always get a rough ride. Leeds coaches haven't coached that to the CB, it's something he has learned through his career, if anything its something he picked up by playing alongside an older partner probably.
And you cant blame our coaches either, unless you want a training session with Budorov kicking lumps out of Dembele. This is what is known in the game as 'experience'. Dembele will learn in time to deal with things like this as his body and brain adapts to the game more.

On a slight side note, on one of my coaching courses there was an older guy that was a professional at Sporting Lisbon back in the day. As an 18 year old he was playing in a reserve / B game or what ever they have and he said there was an older centre back that had a pin tucked in his waistband. Every time the bloke backed in or got near the centre back he got stabbed and the referee was having none of it despite the pin pricks everywhere.
"What did you do in the end?" we asked. "clumped him and got sent off"!! He won. It the dark arts of the game and all about learning!

Reminds me of a story George Best told about his first full year with United. He was playing against someone considered the best left back in the league -- someone with a huge reputation. Anyhow, Best repeatedly made the guy look like a fool, and he started taunting him. "You can't play! For years I've heard about how great you are, but you can't play!" The guy looked at Best and said, "Yeah, well if you get within five feet of me, boy, you'll never play again."

[Skatzoffc]

Having just seen the replay the penalty was very harsh, I didn't know what it was for at the time and how he can give that as handball is beyond me. Clear case of ball to arm and it even gave them an advantage as it dropped to a Leeds player.

Their keeper was well inside his area when he blocked Fredericks shot so that was a good call because like many others I thought he was outside the area.

Fredericks dive for his penalty was also a no go for me and another good call.

Are you saying the arm being thrown across him was not a foul? I was right behind it .. this was a powerful arm coming across him. Now could he have stayed up? possibly but he would have been severely impeded and would have had zero chance of getting the ball. And he had every right to go down under that challenge. We all know that unless you do, the referee will NEVER give it because they bottle all the big decisions. That was an absolute stone wall penalty .. live and on the replay. The player was beaten and he deliberately impeded Fredericks. I really don't get your "it was a good call". Don't get it at all.   

:plus one: