News:

Use a VPN to stream games Safely and Securely 🔒
A Virtual Private Network can also allow you to
watch games Not being broadcast in the UK For
more Information and how to Sign Up go to
https://go.nordvpn.net/SH4FE

Main Menu


mr khan: whatever it takes

Started by nose, August 21, 2016, 12:48:32 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Roberty

#20
Quote from: Statto on August 29, 2016, 10:38:29 AM
Roberty, I'm not obsessed with "Khan's and money". You seemed to be suggesting the FFP breached proved Khan was putting money into the club, and I was merely correcting that fallacy.

I could say it's just as likely we lost money and breached FFP precisely because Khan didn't put any money into the club.

But then again you seem to think a championship football club with steady 5-figure attendances and a massive plot of land in West London is worth "zilch" so maybe you know something we all don't.

I'm struggling to understand your arithmetic - if we lost money and to have a transfer embargo would suggest we did - it means that our expenditure was more than our income - either he guaranteed a bank loan or transferred more money into the club - either way the loss has, did or will come out of his pocket - just as will any loss when or if he sells the club without PL status.

Your confusing Profit and Loss Account with Balance Sheet - the P&L account is the summation of our total Income and total expenditure (including transfer fees) - the FFP limit applies to this account - the Balance Sheet is a record of his investment and losses are financed here as would any investment into the ground or Motspur Park.

I know were a Championship club that looses money - what do you think that is worth?

What do you think the "massive plot of land is worth" if you can only rent it out for people to play sports on?

The LBHF have already refused change of use to residential once and are not likely to be minded to allow an owner to go down that route now - that it why the great Egyptian gave up on that idea when we were at camping out at Loftus Road.

The value in our club was for it being in the PL - we not now - so it is worth a whole lot less that it was when he brought it for - and in terms of his total wealth that would be zilch - less than he spend running his yacht last year I would guess.
It could be better but it's real life and not a fantasy

Finnegans Wake

Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on August 29, 2016, 11:06:13 AM
Quote from: grandad on August 29, 2016, 10:07:34 AM
I see the usual Khan haters are out. If we were to finish 2nd this season they would still be complaining that he should have spent big & go up as Champions..
You lot know nothing about the financial requirements of the club which Khan has to underwrite.
Where does it say that an owner has to spend multi millions to build a successful team. We have been there before with several failures & not all of them in Khan?s tenure.

NO! The "usual Khan haters" as you call them are not out, people are responding to an update on a post, made when there was a long wait for the next signing.

Who are you to say "you lot know nothing about the financial requirements" I think that shows an ignorance on your part.

There may be a few blinkered "haters" on here but to one degree or another its the management of the club overall off the pitch and how its  affected the team and recruitment that people are not happy about , everything else is a side issue for now.

You pop up every now and again and make your remarks (which you're entitled to) as if you are the voice of reason but you make these comments with no more knowledge about Khans input than those you criticise.
You appear to know less than most about whats going on and just stick your head in the sand (that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it as well)

We are in a better position team wise as of today but its taken too long to reach this point, there are still issues to be resolved on and off the pitch

The OP questions the clubs statements of intent and whichever way you look at them they have been misleading at best.
Its a bit like trying to find the truth in a politicians words only this is an English Football club and there's no need for weasel words.

The update post by HD is an unfounded dig because a quick review of recent posts would suggest "the same stuff" is not being repeated, let alone 12 times a day and there IS a growing optimism about the team.

Its been a good start but its early days and while you may feel the need to "Yell" there are player issues that still need to resolved (not to mention off the field issues)  if only people were closer to the action they might see things differently?


In fairness Id say Grandads first and second sentences were about right.

As you said, the original post was made when there was a "long wait for the next signing". Its always the same people who seem to try and find even the slightest of faults then use it to put the boot in to Kahn/The Club, spread a load of doom and gloom and usually back up with nothing more than opinion and speculation on his/the clubs agenda.

I think people just get very bored with it.

MJG

Quote from: Statto on August 29, 2016, 12:16:32 PM
Quote from: Roberty on August 29, 2016, 11:56:19 AM
I'm struggling to understand your arithmetic - if we lost money and to have a transfer embargo would suggest we did - it means that our expenditure was more than our income - either he guaranteed a bank loan or transferred more money into the club - either way the loss has, did or will come out of his pocket - just as will any loss when or if he sells the club without PL status.

We were told we only just breached FFP which suggests we lost ?3m that season. In the last two seasons I doubt we've lost any money at all, although happy to see your evidence to the contrary. I'm not sure that a business with ?30m+ annual revenue (and the land i just mentioned) would need a guarantor for a ?3m loan. But even if it did, I don't think many on here would call that, guaranteeing one small loan in the last 3 yrs, putting his wealth into the club.   

Quote from: Roberty on August 29, 2016, 11:56:19 AM
I know were a Championship club that looses money - what do you think that is worth?

See above. In any case when Khan bought us we were losing ?10-20m per year, and still worth ?200m (you say)
in the last two seasons we lost money in  14/15 season as we failed ffp so must have lost money
I would not expect us to fail ffp in 15/16 but I would expect a loss in the accounts of some kind.
In this season that's still to be decided but I expect to us to show a loss at this stage.


Roberty

Quote from: Statto on August 29, 2016, 12:16:32 PM
Quote from: Roberty on August 29, 2016, 11:56:19 AM
I'm struggling to understand your arithmetic - if we lost money and to have a transfer embargo would suggest we did - it means that our expenditure was more than our income - either he guaranteed a bank loan or transferred more money into the club - either way the loss has, did or will come out of his pocket - just as will any loss when or if he sells the club without PL status.

We were told we only just breached FFP which suggests we lost ?3m that season. In the last two seasons I doubt we've lost any money at all, although happy to see your evidence to the contrary. I'm not sure that a business with ?30m+ annual revenue (and the land i just mentioned) would need a guarantor for a ?3m loan. But even if it did, I don't think many on here would call that, guaranteeing one small loan in the last 3 yrs, putting his wealth into the club.   

Quote from: Roberty on August 29, 2016, 11:56:19 AM
I know were a Championship club that looses money - what do you think that is worth?

See above. In any case when Khan bought us we were losing ?10-20m per year, and still worth ?200m (you say)

No idea - could not be bothered to look - like you it seems. The fact there was a loss is a matter of record and as you say it has been the case for a long time.

Your confusing Profit and Loss Account with Balance Sheet - the P&L account is the summation of our total Income and total expenditure (including transfer fees) during each accounting period - the FFP limit applies to this account. The Balance Sheet is a record of his investment and losses would be financed here - any investment in to the ground or Motspur Park would be shown here too and is excluded from FFP calculations.

When Khan brought the club there was the prospect of increasing television revenues and he would expect these to cover any losses in the longer term. This is why it was worth so much money. At he moment returning to the PL is on everyone's wish list but until we're there the value of the club is severely impaired.
It could be better but it's real life and not a fantasy

filham

Come on we are in the top six, have made a number of new signings, the manager looks settled and most of us are happy. Why knock the chairman right now, wait until the end of the season to see how things are.

MJG

Quote from: Statto on August 29, 2016, 12:43:20 PM
Quote from: MJG on August 29, 2016, 12:29:21 PM
Quote from: Statto on August 29, 2016, 12:16:32 PM
Quote from: Roberty on August 29, 2016, 11:56:19 AM
I'm struggling to understand your arithmetic - if we lost money and to have a transfer embargo would suggest we did - it means that our expenditure was more than our income - either he guaranteed a bank loan or transferred more money into the club - either way the loss has, did or will come out of his pocket - just as will any loss when or if he sells the club without PL status.

We were told we only just breached FFP which suggests we lost ?3m that season. In the last two seasons I doubt we've lost any money at all, although happy to see your evidence to the contrary. I'm not sure that a business with ?30m+ annual revenue (and the land i just mentioned) would need a guarantor for a ?3m loan. But even if it did, I don't think many on here would call that, guaranteeing one small loan in the last 3 yrs, putting his wealth into the club.   

Quote from: Roberty on August 29, 2016, 11:56:19 AM
I know were a Championship club that looses money - what do you think that is worth?

See above. In any case when Khan bought us we were losing ?10-20m per year, and still worth ?200m (you say)
in the last two seasons we lost money in  14/15 season as we failed ffp so must have lost money
I would not expect us to fail ffp in 15/16 but I would expect a loss in the accounts of some kind.
In this season that's still to be decided but I expect to us to show a loss at this stage.

last two seasons i mean 15/16 and 16/17. not a clear way of putting it i admit.

14/15 - small (?3m) loss
15/16 - you expect a loss, fair enough, I disagree but admit it will be tight either way
16/17 - cannot for the life of me see how you can think we're showing a loss at this stage!

I expect to end up showing a loss at the end of the 2016/17 financial year in the accounts when they are published in  2018.


MJG

I'll add Statto a loss is exactly what you want us to have anyway.... Right up to the limit,  or at least a ?1 below the maximum ffp limit... Isn't that right?

bill taylors apprentice

#27
Quote from: Finnegans Wake on August 29, 2016, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on August 29, 2016, 11:06:13 AM
Quote from: grandad on August 29, 2016, 10:07:34 AM
I see the usual Khan haters are out. If we were to finish 2nd this season they would still be complaining that he should have spent big & go up as Champions..
You lot know nothing about the financial requirements of the club which Khan has to underwrite.
Where does it say that an owner has to spend multi millions to build a successful team. We have been there before with several failures & not all of them in Khan?s tenure.

NO! The "usual Khan haters" as you call them are not out, people are responding to an update on a post, made when there was a long wait for the next signing.

Who are you to say "you lot know nothing about the financial requirements" I think that shows an ignorance on your part.

There may be a few blinkered "haters" on here but to one degree or another its the management of the club overall off the pitch and how its  affected the team and recruitment that people are not happy about , everything else is a side issue for now.

You pop up every now and again and make your remarks (which you're entitled to) as if you are the voice of reason but you make these comments with no more knowledge about Khans input than those you criticise.
You appear to know less than most about whats going on and just stick your head in the sand (that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it as well)

We are in a better position team wise as of today but its taken too long to reach this point, there are still issues to be resolved on and off the pitch

The OP questions the clubs statements of intent and whichever way you look at them they have been misleading at best.
Its a bit like trying to find the truth in a politicians words only this is an English Football club and there's no need for weasel words.

The update post by HD is an unfounded dig because a quick review of recent posts would suggest "the same stuff" is not being repeated, let alone 12 times a day and there IS a growing optimism about the team.

Its been a good start but its early days and while you may feel the need to "Yell" there are player issues that still need to resolved (not to mention off the field issues)  if only people were closer to the action they might see things differently?


In fairness Id say Grandads first and second sentences were about right.

As you said, the original post was made when there was a "long wait for the next signing". Its always the same people who seem to try and find even the slightest of faults then use it to put the boot in to Kahn/The Club, spread a load of doom and gloom and usually back up with nothing more than opinion and speculation on his/the clubs agenda.

I think people just get very bored with it.

Not only do I disagree with you but I can't see why you come to that conclusion ?

We all have differing interpretations on whats going on but since the Sigurdssons signing discussions generally have been about the details of how things are done or not done with the window closing imminently.

There maybe "Khan haters" about but IMO they are fewer than some believe and anything they say now or in the future is probably best ignored.

If the likes of me and my comments on the club is being tagged as being "Khan hating" then I take offence and anyone doing so needs to think about making a better more constructive argument.

Giving a strong, but thoughtful, sometimes flawed (maybe) sometimes humours opinion is what it's all about, enough of this "hate" !

toshes mate

I am not a Khan hater, but I will have a go at him, as owner, when things are not being done that he categorically says will be done.  When this thread started we were during a long wait for signings, and, if you are speaking strikers, we are still waiting for at least one signing, and so frustrations over what perceive to be the problems are inevitable.  I notice we are second in the table, have the second best defensive record, and have more than one clean sheet, and we are unbeaten.  It seems our owner has been listening after all, first by bringing in SJ to coach us to heaven, and second by delivering a wealth of good signings in the recent past, one of whom, Mr McDonald, I believe has consolidated our greatest weakness in midfield.  But that doesn't mean I need to lay off Mr Khan and he wouldn't want me to either; he knows as a sport's club owner that fans are what help success along the way.  Without them Mr Khan knows he would be a lot poorer. 


toshes mate

And I agree with BT's Apprentice when he says "enough about hate".  I don't see people entrenched so much as concerned and they are markedly different perspectives.

nose

I posted the op on 21st, nobody touched it since 1.16pm that day
today is 29th at 1.49 somebody reserectted it for no worthwhile reason other than to try and wind me up.

Since the 21st, 8 days of silence on this thread I have been one of the most enthusiastic posters and if we do get a couple of forwards (even one) then i suspect this could be a brilliant special season. I stand by my original cooments as of the 21st and in fact in reality if I really wanted to get going again I could say doing whatever it takes would not unreasonably mean having the squad in place for the pre-season (or at least the greater part of it).

It's gratifying to know 'my admirers' check so far back into the archive to see what I have been saying.

alexmur

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 29, 2016, 03:29:04 PM
We are all your admirers, even your detractors. I cannot see anyone trying to wind you up, as you are not a clock, by the way have you got the time.
Also when is the exact deadline of this particular window.
11 pm on the 31st of August

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



alexmur

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 29, 2016, 04:05:48 PM
Quote from: alexmur on August 29, 2016, 04:01:26 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 29, 2016, 03:29:04 PM
We are all your admirers, even your detractors. I cannot see anyone trying to wind you up, as you are not a clock, by the way have you got the time.
Also when is the exact deadline of this particular window.
11 pm on the 31st of August

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



Hmmm
2016

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


nose

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 29, 2016, 03:29:04 PM
We are all your admirers, even your detractors. I cannot see anyone trying to wind you up, as you are not a clock, by the way have you got the time.
Also when is the exact deadline of this particular window.

No deadline, ever.
I was just saying this was 10 pages down before revival.
I am thrilled that my words have such long term resonance.

nose

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 29, 2016, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: nose on August 29, 2016, 04:15:03 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 29, 2016, 03:29:04 PM
We are all your admirers, even your detractors. I cannot see anyone trying to wind you up, as you are not a clock, by the way have you got the time.
Also when is the exact deadline of this particular window.

No deadline, ever.
I was just saying this was 10 pages down before revival.
I am thrilled that my words have such long term resonance.


The definition of the word " resonance as defined in the English Oxford Collins Dictionary is.... " The quality in a sound of being deep, full and reverberating ".

well that is the quality I respectful think i achieve...

by the way as a scientist I think resonance has a slightly different meaning, in that it is the natuaral frequency of an item. I am not in a fit state to offer the text book definition.


MJG

Quote from: Statto on August 29, 2016, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: MJG on August 29, 2016, 12:51:20 PM
I'll add Statto a loss is exactly what you want us to have anyway.... Right up to the limit,  or at least a ?1 below the maximum ffp limit... Isn't that right?

when the chairman said "whatever it takes" that was my expectation yes

not only the loss but also the other element of FFP, the chairman's cash injection, i expceted us to max that out too
The problem of course with doing that now is that it gives you nowhere to go in january when even if we are doing well you would look to improve the squad in some ways.
better to leave yourself some room without using ALL the money this window.

toshes mate

Quote from: nose on August 29, 2016, 04:15:03 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 29, 2016, 03:29:04 PM
We are all your admirers, even your detractors. I cannot see anyone trying to wind you up, as you are not a clock, by the way have you got the time.
Also when is the exact deadline of this particular window.

No deadline, ever.
I was just saying this was 10 pages down before revival.
I am thrilled that my words have such long term resonance.


And I take your point and echo it.  Mr Khan has to retrieve our spot in the PL and consolidate it as did MAF.  That is "whatever it takes"

NogoodBoyo

Are investments on players classified as capital investments applied to the balance sheet, or operating expenses on the P&L?
Nogood "asking Statto, MJG, accountants, other financial types out there or Macintosh, isit" Boyo


Apprentice to the Maestro

#38
Quote from: MJG on August 30, 2016, 10:14:56 AM
Quote from: Statto on August 29, 2016, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: MJG on August 29, 2016, 12:51:20 PM
I'll add Statto a loss is exactly what you want us to have anyway.... Right up to the limit,  or at least a ?1 below the maximum ffp limit... Isn't that right?

when the chairman said "whatever it takes" that was my expectation yes

not only the loss but also the other element of FFP, the chairman's cash injection, i expceted us to max that out too
The problem of course with doing that now is that it gives you nowhere to go in january when even if we are doing well you would look to improve the squad in some ways.
better to leave yourself some room without using ALL the money this window.

Another factor, as you have taught us, is that although we may have a fair idea of our income in the coming year it would be sensible to leave some leeway so that we don't fall foul of FFP.

I would be happy with two freebie strikers if they did the job. I don't understand this obsession with how much we spend as long as Jokanovic gets the players he wants.

Roberty

Quote from: Statto on August 30, 2016, 10:39:54 AM
Quote from: MJG on August 30, 2016, 10:14:56 AM
Quote from: Statto on August 29, 2016, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: MJG on August 29, 2016, 12:51:20 PM
I'll add Statto a loss is exactly what you want us to have anyway.... Right up to the limit,  or at least a ?1 below the maximum ffp limit... Isn't that right?

when the chairman said "whatever it takes" that was my expectation yes

not only the loss but also the other element of FFP, the chairman's cash injection, i expceted us to max that out too
The problem of course with doing that now is that it gives you nowhere to go in january when even if we are doing well you would look to improve the squad in some ways.
better to leave yourself some room without using ALL the money this window.

yes fair enough i do sympathise with that

look, we've argued all summer about how much we should be spending and i'm not going to restart that lest someone will jump in and say i don't know the intricacies of our finances, spending a lot doesn't necessarily get you quality etc etc... and i sympathise with all that as well

bottom line is i'd just like to have seen a level of spending this summer that made me think, on balance, sticking a finger in the air, some of it probably came from Khan rather than our own revenue

there's an assumption on here that khan is putting money in each year and i think the realistion he's not doing that is very significant

The amount of the loss we can make and the money put in by Khan are the same thing.

The club is allowed to make a loss and the loss can be picked up by the owner.

The FFP rules are there to stop an owner putting in endless amounts of money to finance ever larger losses

The owner can though invest into the facilities and buildings without limit - so the investment into Motspur Park can be as much as he wants to spend and if the Riverside is eventually developed he can also spend as much as he likes on that.
It could be better but it's real life and not a fantasy