Martin Jol

[Wearethewhites]

Now that the dust has settled a little, and we've moved on a bit, I wanted to get everyone's real thoughts on what really went wrong with the big Dutchman?

Yes, most will say 'we've moved on' which is fair enough, but, when appointed, he was quite a statement for FFC.

For me, Martin Jol got caught under the same trap as Mark Hughes did, was enticed to the Club, but, wasn't fully aware of the strict budgets he'd be working under.

Jol, for me, was good when having a budget, but, wasn't a good coach like Woy, when having to think outside the box.

When selling the Club, I also feel that Jol was kept on for to long, should have gone the season before, but, unfortunately, was part of Fayeds glossy brochure, within the Riverside Stand, and a high profile coach being the big selling points.

Let's be honest, Fayed had no intention of building the Riverside Stand..

Anyway, Jol being a man of his word, a proud man, and the Club triggering the last year of his contract, the man had no other option than to mumble through with the mess, that was already afoot.

Don't get me wrong, Jol had his faults as well, but shouldn't have been a target of Fulhams demise.

Your thoughts on Jol?

[dannyboi-ffc]

I'm not sure I buy into the budget being small or him not being a good coach. The entire Europa league squad probably cost 25million which on average is about 2/3million per player. Don't get me wrong, if you aren't going to invest big money then you are making things very difficult but I feel it was in this area that Woy was much more educated with scouting, more knowledgeable and more understanding of the type of personality to take Fulham forward.

We spent sh1t loads on Ruiz, a waste of money if we are being honest. But if ever he was going to shine it was the second season after having a year to settle into the league and environment. The perfect time to build a team around him in the hole behind a pacey striker pulling the strings. But instead, we signed Berbatov, Bent and Taarabt in the next two seasons. Having Riether on loan who was brilliant but very well documented to be wanted by Schalke, yet we still signed him which turned out to be a nightmare.

It seemed Jol signed his mates rather than signing players to fit into a team and in the end I think it was a case of Jol thinking he was too big for Fulham and trying to take them up to the level he wanted to be at but going the wrong way about it.

He certainly wasn't a Magath though! Recruitment ruined everything for Jol imo

[Holders]

"There's nothing to worry about, we'll be fine": M. Jol, relegation season.

[Wearethewhites]

"There's nothing to worry about, we'll be fine": M. Jol, relegation season.

To be fair, he never got us relegated, and I reckon, we'd have got away with it, if he was kept and back in that January window.

[ffc73]

Agree with lots from both opening posts but go more with Danny.  Jol was part of the Faye's glossy brochure but his player recruitment, tactics & understanding of FFC was woeful

On his watch relegation happened. He should have been sacked at the end of the season before. Last day win over Swansea papered over the rubbish we were that Spring

[bill taylors apprentice]

Jol was a big (ish) name but whatever was happening behind the scenes he was a failure pure and simple.

I was open minded from the start but he never convinced me he was much good and got worse as time went on.

Plenty of players came and went but generally poor choices which weakened the team.

[Woolly Mammoth]

Also Jol had very little interest in the Academy, and very rarely left his office to go and watch them himself.
His body language and his manor in that last season, indicated to me that he was already thinking about his pension, plus he could see no wrong in Berbatov, and was deluded enough to say that Berbatov was the best player to play for Fulham. Tells us more about Jol than his favourite player.
It was clear before he was sacked, and he was basically waiting to be sacked, as it was clear that when we lost, it did not hurt him enough, as his desire had deserted him.
So his post match interviews, were the same give or take every week, he had no energy or genuine interest, but he was never going to resign, he just waited for the inevitable sacking. No winners there then.
As already documented, he should have been replaced the season before, as he was already a dead man walking.

[YankeeJim]

Its hard for me to blame a coach who has been successful elsewhere. To me, the blame for our relegation was Mo's desire to bail and Khan's failure to see the pig in the poke he bought. Why Ali Mack and the rest of upper management were so incompetent is another question. Perhaps the lack of proper football people. Perhaps Khan's inexperience. Perhaps Mo's suckering Khan. Even Felix's complete failure has to shine on management to some degree.
Trust in Slava. Khan has us on the road back.

[YankeeJim]

Also Jol had very little interest in the Academy, and very rarely left his office to go and watch them himself.
His body language and his manor in that last season, indicated to me that he was already thinking about his pension, plus he could see no wrong in Berbatov, and was deluded enough to say that Berbatov was the best player to play for Fulham. Tells us more about Jol than his favourite player.
It was clear before he was sacked, and he was basically waiting to be sacked, as it was clear that when we lost, it did not hurt him enough, as his desire had deserted him.
So his post match interviews, were the same give or take every week, he had no energy or genuine interest, but he was never going to resign, he just waited for the inevitable sacking. No winners there then.
As already documented, he should have been replaced the season before, as he was already a dead man walking.

I don't think Old Red Nose could have saved us. The whole organization was rancid. Jo was phoning it in, just as the players were.

[RaySmith]

It all seemed to go wrong for Jol when Dembele and Dempsey were sold, plus his big signing  Ruiz seemed totally unsuited to British football, and there were other poor signings.

To his  credit, Jol seemed to get the best out of Dembele, and then he was sold just when we seemed to be doing well.

[cmg]

Although there may have been something in the 'lack of money' argument, I take the position that Jol, in common with many managers, was simply over rated.
His reputation was based on his association with some big name teams, but the truth is he didn't achieve much with any of them:
Spurs - 9th, 5, 5, 18
Hamburg - 5
Ajax (a top club in one of the less competitive European leagues) - 2, 4

What he did with us (and Waalwijk with whom he had his greatest triumph, the Dutch FA Cup!) was on a similar level.

[Jims Dentist]

Also Jol had very little interest in the Academy, and very rarely left his office to go and watch them himself.
His body language and his manor in that last season, indicated to me that he was already thinking about his pension, plus he could see no wrong in Berbatov, and was deluded enough to say that Berbatov was the best player to play for Fulham. Tells us more about Jol than his favourite player.
It was clear before he was sacked, and he was basically waiting to be sacked, as it was clear that when we lost, it did not hurt him enough, as his desire had deserted him.
So his post match interviews, were the same give or take every week, he had no energy or genuine interest, but he was never going to resign, he just waited for the inevitable sacking. No winners there then.
As already documented, he should have been replaced the season before, as he was already a dead man walking.

Totally agree WM.

[HeinekenFFC]

Agree with lots from both opening posts but go more with Danny.  Jol was part of the Faye's glossy brochure but his player recruitment, tactics & understanding of FFC was woeful

On his watch relegation happened. He should have been sacked at the end of the season before. Last day win over Swansea papered over the rubbish we were that Spring

Absolutely spot on. Had we lost that game where we literally scored all of our 3 shots on target while Swansea peppered us with shots from everywhere, Jol would've been sacked and I think we'd have maintained our prem status. Never took any interest in the academy and signed all his mates from across Europe (Petric, Berba, Stek, Boateng). Woeful manager after the 1st season.

[dannyboi-ffc]

Agree with lots from both opening posts but go more with Danny.  Jol was part of the Faye's glossy brochure but his player recruitment, tactics & understanding of FFC was woeful

On his watch relegation happened. He should have been sacked at the end of the season before. Last day win over Swansea papered over the rubbish we were that Spring

We made the same mistake 3 bloody times with not sacking s manager in the summer. First Jol should have gone as the warning signs were there, Magath should not have been allowed to steer head the club in the championship and when Kit took over it was a superb start but the diamond and predictable approach became worrying towards the end of the second season and he should have gone in a more dignified way. Sacked in the summer with a thankyou for bridging the damage made by Magath but not allowed to try and take us any further because imo he couldn't. And it cost us another year of turmoil.

I have to agree it was Jol that has relegation on his hands. As much as I dislike Magath, at one point from being cut adrift he actually looked like he could save us and if we'd beaten Hull when we were 2v0 up who knows. But Magath despite his madness didn't sign any players, in a weird way it wasn't his fault our star signing Holtby was already here and clearly hated him as a manager.

So you've got Jol and Rene along with whoever signed off the signings to blame because imo it was recruitment of people like Bent, Taarabt and Berbatov that created the lack of team ethic/spirit and ability to dig deep and fight for the badge anyway.

Is Jol a worse manager than Magath in our history? I'd have to say no. But he's more to blame for our relegation imo

[dannyboi-ffc]

Agree with lots from both opening posts but go more with Danny.  Jol was part of the Faye's glossy brochure but his player recruitment, tactics & understanding of FFC was woeful

On his watch relegation happened. He should have been sacked at the end of the season before. Last day win over Swansea papered over the rubbish we were that Spring

Absolutely spot on. Had we lost that game where we literally scored all of our 3 shots on target while Swansea peppered us with shots from everywhere, Jol would've been sacked and I think we'd have maintained our prem status. Never took any interest in the academy and signed all his mates from across Europe (Petric, Berba, Stek, Boateng). Woeful manager after the 1st season.

Exactly what I said above about signing mates and lacking Hodgsons understanding of what type of character would fit in at Fulham. Hodgson signed with little money Hangeland and Nevland both of whom absolutely love Fulham. Andreasen who had the fight and grit for a battle. Stalteri with the experience and reliability. It was a perfect transfer window for a club like Fulham in a battle. It was an educated well thought out window.

Jol signed people he knew from previous clubs with no plan of how it would all piece together. A sheer lack of understanding of our club and an even bigger lack of balls to make tough decisions with team selection because he had too many 'mates' he didn't want to upset or drop

[dannyboi-ffc]

Its hard for me to blame a coach who has been successful elsewhere. To me, the blame for our relegation was Mo's desire to bail and Khan's failure to see the pig in the poke he bought. Why Ali Mack and the rest of upper management were so incompetent is another question. Perhaps the lack of proper football people. Perhaps Khan's inexperience. Perhaps Mo's suckering Khan. Even Felix's complete failure has to shine on management to some degree.
Trust in Slava. Khan has us on the road back.

But Al Fayed oversaw 2 promotions in 4 years both as champions with 101 points. The first English club to reach a century twice. An FA Cup semi final and a Europa League final. It is a chairmans CV which up until the final couple of years was superb for a club like Fulham. So if Al Fayed can be blamed for relegation then it's contradicting to say Jol can't because he's been a great coach elsewhere. However you look at it he still had the 2 bad seasons at Fulham that Al Fayed had.

So I think it's fair to say there are many who take part of the blame, all 3 managers, 2 chairman and Ali Mac as well as the players but Jol could be Sir Alex Ferguson for all I care. He wasn't the great manager we all thought he would be

[dannyboi-ffc]

The criticism of Jol on this forum has always been somewhere between harsh and just plain ridiculous IMO.

His record speaks for itself: Spurs, Hamburg, Ajax, some of the best clubs in Europe, then very respectable 9th and 12th placed finishes with us. (To give some context, under Hodgson we were 7th, with 1pt more than Jol's tally for 9th, and 12th.)

He was sacked a quarter of the way into our relegation season and personally I feel we'd have stayed up if we'd just kept him on.

I agree with others that he wasn't used to working on a shoestring, but clearly he was waiting for someone like Khan to come along and back him. The various 30+ year olds he signed were clearly brought in through desperation rather than choice.

Unfortunately Khan didn't recognise how desperate we were for investment and thus we've spent the last 4 years paying for that misjudgment.

I see where you're coming from but it all comes back to recruitment. Both good seasons we were still using the core of Hodgsons team. When the team was diluted to being just Jol signings it went pear shaped. Ajax, Spurs and Hamburg. Amazing CV but they aren't Fulham. He didn't know how to sign the right player for us because he was used to big names at big clubs.

So I'll meet you in the middle and say he deserves part of the blame for where we've ended up but not all. And in the end it was more a case of wrong choice of manager for a smaller club and not necessarily because he was a 'bad manager'

Agreed?

[YankeeJim]

Its hard for me to blame a coach who has been successful elsewhere. To me, the blame for our relegation was Mo's desire to bail and Khan's failure to see the pig in the poke he bought. Why Ali Mack and the rest of upper management were so incompetent is another question. Perhaps the lack of proper football people. Perhaps Khan's inexperience. Perhaps Mo's suckering Khan. Even Felix's complete failure has to shine on management to some degree.
Trust in Slava. Khan has us on the road back.

But Al Fayed oversaw 2 promotions in 4 years both as champions with 101 points. The first English club to reach a century twice. An FA Cup semi final and a Europa League final. It is a chairmans CV which up until the final couple of years was superb for a club like Fulham. So if Al Fayed can be blamed for relegation then it's contradicting to say Jol can't because he's been a great coach elsewhere. However you look at it he still had the 2 bad seasons at Fulham that Al Fayed had.

So I think it's fair to say there are many who take part of the blame, all 3 managers, 2 chairman and Ali Mac as well as the players but Jol could be Sir Alex Ferguson for all I care. He wasn't the great manager we all thought he would be

If you have an employee who was your top hand for years but than turned into a drunk who either didn't show up or was disrupting when he did, would you not address the situation by either trying to dry him out or sacking him? Mo started "drinking" after Hamburg and wasn't the wonderful owner he had been for so long. We owe a lot to him and should always treasure that ,but that doesn't forgive him going AWOL on us the last 2+ years. Clearly he felt he had had enough. Too bad for that but good on him otherwise.

[Wearethewhites]

Its hard for me to blame a coach who has been successful elsewhere. To me, the blame for our relegation was Mo's desire to bail and Khan's failure to see the pig in the poke he bought. Why Ali Mack and the rest of upper management were so incompetent is another question. Perhaps the lack of proper football people. Perhaps Khan's inexperience. Perhaps Mo's suckering Khan. Even Felix's complete failure has to shine on management to some degree.
Trust in Slava. Khan has us on the road back.

But Al Fayed oversaw 2 promotions in 4 years both as champions with 101 points. The first English club to reach a century twice. An FA Cup semi final and a Europa League final. It is a chairmans CV which up until the final couple of years was superb for a club like Fulham. So if Al Fayed can be blamed for relegation then it's contradicting to say Jol can't because he's been a great coach elsewhere. However you look at it he still had the 2 bad seasons at Fulham that Al Fayed had.

So I think it's fair to say there are many who take part of the blame, all 3 managers, 2 chairman and Ali Mac as well as the players but Jol could be Sir Alex Ferguson for all I care. He wasn't the great manager we all thought he would be

If you have an employee who was your top hand for years but than turned into a drunk who either didn't show up or was disrupting when he did, would you not address the situation by either trying to dry him out or sacking him? Mo started "drinking" after Hamburg and wasn't the wonderful owner he had been for so long. We owe a lot to him and should always treasure that ,but that doesn't forgive him going AWOL on us the last 2+ years. Clearly he felt he had had enough. Too bad for that but good on him otherwise.

These are my feelings on the whole situation as well. Without turning this into dig at Fayed thread, we still, to this day, owe him a lot, but, leading up to the sale of FFC, things were sloppy, and with a bit more due care and attention, I believe we'd still be a Premiership outfit today.

Jol was no saint, he had his downfalls, but, I believe, he, and few others around the Club, were just abandoned, including Ali Mac, who had to financially juggle the episode.

[dannyboi-ffc]

Its hard for me to blame a coach who has been successful elsewhere. To me, the blame for our relegation was Mo's desire to bail and Khan's failure to see the pig in the poke he bought. Why Ali Mack and the rest of upper management were so incompetent is another question. Perhaps the lack of proper football people. Perhaps Khan's inexperience. Perhaps Mo's suckering Khan. Even Felix's complete failure has to shine on management to some degree.
Trust in Slava. Khan has us on the road back.

But Al Fayed oversaw 2 promotions in 4 years both as champions with 101 points. The first English club to reach a century twice. An FA Cup semi final and a Europa League final. It is a chairmans CV which up until the final couple of years was superb for a club like Fulham. So if Al Fayed can be blamed for relegation then it's contradicting to say Jol can't because he's been a great coach elsewhere. However you look at it he still had the 2 bad seasons at Fulham that Al Fayed had.

So I think it's fair to say there are many who take part of the blame, all 3 managers, 2 chairman and Ali Mac as well as the players but Jol could be Sir Alex Ferguson for all I care. He wasn't the great manager we all thought he would be

If you have an employee who was your top hand for years but than turned into a drunk who either didn't show up or was disrupting when he did, would you not address the situation by either trying to dry him out or sacking him? Mo started "drinking" after Hamburg and wasn't the wonderful owner he had been for so long. We owe a lot to him and should always treasure that ,but that doesn't forgive him going AWOL on us the last 2+ years. Clearly he felt he had had enough. Too bad for that but good on him otherwise.

No one is denying Al Fayed neglected the club for the final few years. But he sold up at the best possible time for him, avoided sacking the "drunk" as your example refers to it and lesft the inevitable sacking and compensation package for someone else to pay. It might feel immoral now but I'd say a good business man who can see his staff are useless and business starting to plummet. Who is also no spring chicken in his 80s might I add sells that business and makes a profit whilst still not having the tag of responsibility for the downward spiral. Whatever our views I think its safe to say despite Mo being eccentric and a bit of a clown, he certainly isn't stupid.

I don't think Jol is either. But if you look through Mo's reign who exactly in the prem era had that much to spend considering our success? Sanchez probably spent the most in a season and he was useless. Gera, Schwarzer, Hughes, Murphy, Etuhu and Davies who all started a European final probably cost less in transfer fees than a season of Berbatovs wages so its not and always will be "what you spend, its who you spend it on" and Jol's signings was poor judge of character for a club like Fulham.

And the fact Jol is the top manager who became a drunk in your hypothetical example highlights that as manager of Fulham he went off the rails and failed miserably, doesn't it?