Author Topic: Playing out from the back  (Read 1048 times)

Offline Marcel_Gecov

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Playing out from the back
« on: August 14, 2019, 10:55:57 AM »
I rewatched the 90 mins of the Blackburn game last night and was so impressed by how our defence played the ball out from the back with such confidence. I would suggest that we even looked better in this department than we did under Slav (based on one just one game obvs). I would expect this from Odoi and Ream but I was so impressed with Mawson in this regards who I never had viewed as a ball playing CB before.

We are definitely utilising the new role that CBs are allowed in the box to its nth degree which is great to see. Poor Blackburn were given the runaround with very few nervy moments.

Offline fcfulham55

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2019, 11:28:07 AM »
Having watched it, I thought we actually looked uncomfortable.

But still brave to persist.  It'll get better with time.  Especially as we almost play twice a week, the high pressure will be too much to do week in week out for large portions of a game.

Offline Matt10

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2019, 01:13:19 PM »
Completely agree with how confident we looked. Pinging the ball at those speeds can only breed more confidence. The more touches on the ball by multiple players, the better. It showed bravery regardless, and sure we got caught once or twice, but it's about how we respond - which we did quite well.


Offline Statto

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2019, 01:36:45 PM »
In the first half v Blackburn it was poor. Under Jokanovic, whilst it was a bit boring passing it around our own half, it at least required the opposition to chase the ball around, with the inevitable consquence that around 60 minutes into the game they'd get tired and crack. Against Blackburn, our passing was so slow and unadventurous, Blackburn just stepped back and watched it, occassionally making a casual attempt to pressure us. We need to be (and under Jokanovic were) much quicker and more creative than that. Benjamin Bloom said the same thing.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 01:43:04 PM by Statto »

Offline Arthur

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2019, 02:32:37 PM »
Completely agree with how confident we looked. Pinging the ball at those speeds can only breed more confidence. The more touches on the ball by multiple players, the better. It showed bravery regardless, and sure we got caught once or twice, but it's about how we respond - which we did quite well.

I would like to think the players' confidence will grow rapidly the more games that we play this way. We're definitely better at it when Ream plays, in my opinion. Post-match, S.P. spoke of the players' mixture of nerves and bravery - which I thought was an accurate assessment. I hope that we persevere with it. Circumstances may force us to be selective about when to play out from the back, but we'll be a more difficult team to counteract if it can become a workable part of our style of play.

What made me despair, however, was the reaction of a good number of the crowd around me (JH Stand, towards the Putney End). From the first instance of our trying to play out from the back, they were making their disapproval clearly audible to the players. I've sat in this part of the ground ever since we returned from our two-year exile and it seems there are so many people who are far quicker to voice their discontent than offer vocal encouragement. Every club has such supporters, I know - and perhaps a large proportion just happen to be around me - but the notion (which I see others express on this forum) that the Club has a more supportive, fair-minded bunch of followers than most other teams doesn't always tally with what I hear from where I sit.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 02:56:49 PM by Arthur »

Online 70sPimlico

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2019, 03:42:41 PM »
Completely agree with how confident we looked. Pinging the ball at those speeds can only breed more confidence. The more touches on the ball by multiple players, the better. It showed bravery regardless, and sure we got caught once or twice, but it's about how we respond - which we did quite well.

I would like to think the players' confidence will grow rapidly the more games that we play this way. We're definitely better at it when Ream plays, in my opinion. Post-match, S.P. spoke of the players' mixture of nerves and bravery - which I thought was an accurate assessment. I hope that we persevere with it. Circumstances may force us to be selective about when to play out from the back, but we'll be a more difficult team to counteract if it can become a workable part of our style of play.

What made me despair, however, was the reaction of a good number of the crowd around me (JH Stand, towards the Putney End). From the first instance of our trying to play out from the back, they were making their disapproval clearly audible to the players. I've sat in this part of the ground ever since we returned from our two-year exile and it seems there are so many people who are far quicker to voice their discontent than offer vocal encouragement. Every club has such supporters, I know - and perhaps a large proportion just happen to be around me - but the notion (which I see others express on this forum) that the Club has a more supportive, fair-minded bunch of followers than most other teams doesn't always tally with what I hear from where I sit.

I make you right. At Barnsley, I had a couple of blokes in my vicinity of say 100 that were having seizures. They seemed completely oblivious to the reason why we play like that. I thought it weird that people that go up to Barnsley would not have got used to it over the last few years. I guess we just looked very rusty.

I was in JH on Saturday nearer HE and def felt a couple of groans near me but was very clear down your end. Barnsley was very dodgy but I didnt feel nervous at all on saturday. Not that I didnt think blackburn could nick a goal but I didnt think it would be through robbing us of possesion. Tim made such a diffrence. Just the whole way he recieves the ball means that the opposition have to go across him first to reach the ball and that extra time is all he needs. MLM, on the other hand, well at Barnsley at least, he seemed to only be able to recieve the ball face on. Just meant the ball would just come back to where it came from. I was really suprised at how basic that was. Maybe nerves and rustiness.


Offline Whitesideup

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2019, 03:52:21 PM »
In the first half v Blackburn it was poor. Under Jokanovic, whilst it was a bit boring passing it around our own half, it at least required the opposition to chase the ball around, with the inevitable consquence that around 60 minutes into the game they'd get tired and crack. Against Blackburn, our passing was so slow and unadventurous, Blackburn just stepped back and watched it, occassionally making a casual attempt to pressure us. We need to be (and under Jokanovic were) much quicker and more creative than that. Benjamin Bloom said the same thing.

I thought we started a bit hesitantly but improved as the game went on, to the extent that I agree with Matt10 and in the second half there was some great one-touch moves out of defence. After we went ahead, Blackburn mustered very few chances, and some of that must be due to the fact our possession improved. There will always be the possibility of an opponent defending deep and maybe patience is required at times. Rather that than just hoof the ball up and, more times than not, lose possession and give the impetus back to the opponent. I was happy with the way we played.

What can be perceived as a lack of decisive (or incisive?) passing can be driven by a couple of factors - a lack of movement ahead of the defence, and to be fair, maybe good defensive work from their midfield that work hard to close down options being offered.

The new goal kick rule means it is now almost impossible to press and force a long kick. It also means that teams that like to can play the ball more frequently, and for longer periods, in their defensive third until an opening appears to move it further forward. I think we may have to get used to it. And I share the frustration of Arthur as a few near me were quick to express their dissatisfaction. However it was just a few, and it was in the first half when we maybe overdid it a bit, and took a chance or two too many.

Offline Skatzoffc

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2019, 04:14:30 PM »
Against Blackburn on two occasions we moved the ball the way I think we should be.

A ball from Ream to Cairney, one touch and a through ball to the attacker of Cav or Knockeart.
Both times we were through on goal but failed to make it count.

It is a tactic used by Arsenal and with the pace we now have in these new attacking wingers and the skill/awareness of Cairney, I would hope we are able to use this style of play more.

Sometimes we just play it around the back 2-3 touvhes too much. But it will come if we get used to the style and make/spot the attacking runs.

Coyw!

Offline Matt10

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2019, 04:35:08 PM »
It's a valid tactic, and I appreciate the bravery shown by not only the players, but SP to push for it. The tactic is built to keep the width of our 4-1-4-1, which forces Blackburn, in this case, to take a chance in vacating marking positions. This is why when we tried to send a ball to Mitro's head, it wasn't effective because he was isolated, and was double-teamed by both CB's. In addition, it opens up multiple angles for various passing lanes, which is why it looked like we were attacking via a counter-attack and Blackburn were left on their heels at certain points. Finally, the fact that we are pushing our Wingers to be dynamic to tuck inside or flank wide, it allows the backs such as Bryan and Odoi more freedom in attack and transition back into defence. 

Once we switched to a 5-3-2, we were able to send balls over the top more often because Reid and Mitro could play off eachother, including the set up from Mitro's flicked header to Reid, in which we could've gone up 3-nil.

Overall, it's scary to watch at times, and is a risk, and I'm loathing the thought of it being used away to Huddersfield on Friday night. For a team that was remarkably accustomed to individual errors last season, this is a bold strategy being employed!


Offline toshes mate

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2019, 07:01:22 PM »
I suspect Jokanovic is salivating at the potential of the rule change since the whole concept of playing out from the back now has an additional options and impacts.  Most teams are doing much the same as we have been doing but the options created by the rule change should become much more variable as time goes by.  It's an interesting development which can and may change games as coaching staff and players develop new ideas to catch opponents out.  I think speed of thought and movement are crucial to making the arguments about bravery stand on their head. 

Offline Whitesideup

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2019, 08:59:25 PM »
It's a valid tactic, and I appreciate the bravery shown by not only the players, but SP to push for it. The tactic is built to keep the width of our 4-1-4-1, which forces Blackburn, in this case, to take a chance in vacating marking positions. This is why when we tried to send a ball to Mitro's head, it wasn't effective because he was isolated, and was double-teamed by both CB's. In addition, it opens up multiple angles for various passing lanes, which is why it looked like we were attacking via a counter-attack and Blackburn were left on their heels at certain points. Finally, the fact that we are pushing our Wingers to be dynamic to tuck inside or flank wide, it allows the backs such as Bryan and Odoi more freedom in attack and transition back into defence. 

Once we switched to a 5-3-2, we were able to send balls over the top more often because Reid and Mitro could play off eachother, including the set up from Mitro's flicked header to Reid, in which we could've gone up 3-nil.

Overall, it's scary to watch at times, and is a risk, and I'm loathing the thought of it being used away to Huddersfield on Friday night. For a team that was remarkably accustomed to individual errors last season, this is a bold strategy being employed!
This is remarkable similar to my views of the game. Makes me feel a b it less lonely. Skatzo's point  is fine except it implies that as we only did it twice, the rest wasn't good enough. But players have to react to situations and it is not often the scenario allows you to be so quick and expansive. But I am sure Skatzo appreciates that. But the point is good that we now have great pace and ability to react if we catch opponents out.

Offline Milo

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2019, 09:30:13 PM »
Mawson less comfortable than Ream and Odoi. Looks the weak link. I would try to shepherd the ball to Mawson if I was the opposition.

Also, no long field ball option like we used to have. We used to kick to our full backs to retain possession. That seems to have disappeared. I suggested we kick to Mitro in the centre circle instead? But we definitely need a plan B if they high press. The full back option was never 100% but we need an alternative.


Offline Whitesideup

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2019, 11:22:24 PM »
Mawson less comfortable than Ream and Odoi. Looks the weak link. I would try to shepherd the ball to Mawson if I was the opposition.

Also, no long field ball option like we used to have. We used to kick to our full backs to retain possession. That seems to have disappeared. I suggested we kick to Mitro in the centre circle instead? But we definitely need a plan B if they high press. The full back option was never 100% but we need an alternative.

You know, sometimes that is what we have to do. But it's not going to deliver much in the way of results when he is isolated up front. Playing Cavaleiro and Knockaert very wide on the wings will then leave Mitro isolated, and very often with two defenders on him. And because no one else is around, defending team can assign a player to stay within 6 inches of him at all times. I thought he coped very well against Blackburn, but overall, long ball up to an isolated Mitro is not going to deliver much. Sometimes necessary, don't get me wrong, but don't make it part of the game plan.

Offline Milo

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2019, 11:28:13 PM »
Mawson less comfortable than Ream and Odoi. Looks the weak link. I would try to shepherd the ball to Mawson if I was the opposition.

Also, no long field ball option like we used to have. We used to kick to our full backs to retain possession. That seems to have disappeared. I suggested we kick to Mitro in the centre circle instead? But we definitely need a plan B if they high press. The full back option was never 100% but we need an alternative.

You know, sometimes that is what we have to do. But it's not going to deliver much in the way of results when he is isolated up front. Playing Cavaleiro and Knockaert very wide on the wings will then leave Mitro isolated, and very often with two defenders on him. And because no one else is around, defending team can assign a player to stay within 6 inches of him at all times. I thought he coped very well against Blackburn, but overall, long ball up to an isolated Mitro is not going to deliver much. Sometimes necessary, don't get me wrong, but don't make it part of the game plan.

Agreed the long ball to Mitro is hardly very original, and they’ll see it coming! But we need to replace the Betts cross field goal kick to Fredericks/Target that we had when we went up. With the control down, or headed infield to a teammate.

You mention Knockaert/Cav.. could bring them deep from goal kicks and try to hit them?

Offline hovewhite

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2019, 11:31:41 AM »
From the CBs Team is the one that generally plays it out correct ,Alfie is a work in progress I feel and has moments of dread.But it's the way scotty has set them up to play.


Offline Forever Fulham

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2019, 01:12:39 PM »
Tim's passing accuracy was 92%

Offline Jims Dentist

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2019, 09:05:53 PM »
Other teams will have watched us and will have plans to exploit our style.
I worry about Grant of Huddersfield on Friday.

Offline The Cravenette

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Re: Playing out from the back
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2019, 10:10:49 PM »
Completely agree with how confident we looked. Pinging the ball at those speeds can only breed more confidence. The more touches on the ball by multiple players, the better. It showed bravery regardless, and sure we got caught once or twice, but it's about how we respond - which we did quite well.

I would like to think the players' confidence will grow rapidly the more games that we play this way. We're definitely better at it when Ream plays, in my opinion. Post-match, S.P. spoke of the players' mixture of nerves and bravery - which I thought was an accurate assessment. I hope that we persevere with it. Circumstances may force us to be selective about when to play out from the back, but we'll be a more difficult team to counteract if it can become a workable part of our style of play.

What made me despair, however, was the reaction of a good number of the crowd around me (JH Stand, towards the Putney End). From the first instance of our trying to play out from the back, they were making their disapproval clearly audible to the players. I've sat in this part of the ground ever since we returned from our two-year exile and it seems there are so many people who are far quicker to voice their discontent than offer vocal encouragement. Every club has such supporters, I know - and perhaps a large proportion just happen to be around me - but the notion (which I see others express on this forum) that the Club has a more supportive, fair-minded bunch of followers than most other teams doesn't always tally with what I hear from where I sit.

I make you right. At Barnsley, I had a couple of blokes in my vicinity of say 100 that were having seizures. They seemed completely oblivious to the reason why we play like that. I thought it weird that people that go up to Barnsley would not have got used to it over the last few years. I guess we just looked very rusty.

I was in JH on Saturday nearer HE and def felt a couple of groans near me but was very clear down your end. Barnsley was very dodgy but I didnt feel nervous at all on saturday. Not that I didnt think blackburn could nick a goal but I didnt think it would be through robbing us of possesion. Tim made such a diffrence. Just the whole way he recieves the ball means that the opposition have to go across him first to reach the ball and that extra time is all he needs. MLM, on the other hand, well at Barnsley at least, he seemed to only be able to recieve the ball face on. Just meant the ball would just come back to where it came from. I was really suprised at how basic that was. Maybe nerves and rustiness.

Same thing in the Hammy End block 6. Fans just wanting us to hoof it and having no confidence in our ability to actually play football! The amount of times a guy behind me calls one of our players rubbish during a match is ridiculous.