Author Topic: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham  (Read 2034 times)

Offline TrenteSept

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2019, 05:51:14 PM »
Data derived from algorithms can inform choices, but should never be the main determinant. The human side is far more important as we are dealing with flesh and blood, not robots.

So, questions like:

How will this player fit into our game-plan?
Will he settle here and find a connection with the rest of the team?
Is he playing in the brest position for him?

And so on.

But none of this is as important as the manager getting the best from the team through tactics and nurturing players.

Good managers make good players out of average ones.

Sometimes we struggle against inferior sides who are better managed, well-drilled and motivated.

Nothing to do with algorithms, which work better in the NFL as a function of how it's played.

Offline HV71

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2019, 05:54:26 PM »
We used a bell curve .....( of the end variety )

Offline MJG

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2019, 06:03:15 PM »
Data derived from algorithms can inform choices, but should never be the main determinant. The human side is far more important as we are dealing with flesh and blood, not robots.

So, questions like:

How will this player fit into our game-plan?
Will he settle here and find a connection with the rest of the team?
Is he playing in the brest position for him?

And so on.

But none of this is as important as the manager getting the best from the team through tactics and nurturing players.

Good managers make good players out of average ones.

Sometimes we struggle against inferior sides who are better managed, well-drilled and motivated.

Nothing to do with algorithms, which work better in the NFL as a function of how it's played.
ahiw a player can fit into game plan is used by all the team. A lot of data can show how a player performs in formations, positions and individual players.


Offline MJG

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2019, 06:03:51 PM »
The big question has to be did we use an algorithm to select Ranieri.
No

Online The Rational Fan

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2019, 12:18:11 AM »
Will an Algorithm based club ever achieve the success that Cloughie had at Forrest, I doubt it.
While there will never be another Clough there has to be room for strong individual managers with algorithms used as a supporting tool.

Brian Clough had an algorithm, it was in his head. One rule he followed was find players with skill and problems that would improve if they focused on football more. He loved players with skill, problems (like gaming) and a desire to overcome them.

For those that think an algorithm is always run by a computer, let me remind you the word algorithm predates the computer by about a 1000 years. An algorithm is a set of rules one follows to solve a problem and traditional has been performed in someone’s head (eg the managers head).
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 12:35:22 AM by The Rational Fan »

Online The Rational Fan

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2019, 12:46:10 AM »
You have to rember that Khan is inhibited by FFP, unlike MAF.

I don't  really see a lot of difference between them, in the way that you argue.
I think Khan backs his managers, and is prepared to spend big  from his own wealth to get Fulham  as successful as possible, and would spend what it takes within reason, to on players to achieve  this goal.

Maybe he has a more thought out long term plan for the club as a sustainable business, but surely that is in the club's interests too. And i think he definitely wants Fulham as long term  Prem club, not a yo-yo club, as we were for 13 years under MAF, of course, until he got fed up for whatever reasons. But we owe him big time, of course.

The 'algorithm' business, is surely  just a new way of finding appropriate players isn't it? and we still use traditional scouting methods too, under the two tick system - so we are informed anyway.

Khan Junior has said that Scott Parker has unprecedented involvement in the search for new players, and seems to think this a good thing - so implying that Parker is fully backed.

So, I think  it is Khan's urgent goal to be a long term Prem member, but sustainable also if possible, with money  made from the extra attendance, and general use of the new stand facilities going towards this, and this has to be a good thing for the club.

Spot On, the biggest difference is FFP when considering player inflation we spent the equivalent of £205m the summer we got promoted to the premier league under MAF and the team we already had the year before was pretty good with most of the players staying.

The big difference is “The Khans“ are not going to trust the manager to select purchases, using statistics, scouts and TK to select. The Khans give the Manager the players that the recruitment department recommend, every team in premier league except Manchester United follow this model.


Offline toshes mate

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2019, 09:34:50 AM »
Brian Clough had an algorithm, it was in his head. One rule he followed was find players with skill and problems that would improve if they focused on football more. He loved players with skill, problems (like gaming) and a desire to overcome them.

For those that think an algorithm is always run by a computer, let me remind you the word algorithm predates the computer by about a 1000 years. An algorithm is a set of rules one follows to solve a problem and traditional has been performed in someone’s head (eg the managers head).
All algorithms ever used by computers (even much hyped and so called 'machine learning') originate in a human being's mind.  If Clough had an algorithm then I am pretty sure a super computer would have its work cut out understanding it even if a coder could code it.

We have algorithms for standing up, another for making tea, and yet another for writing something on social media.  We tend to adapt our algorithms very much on the fly something a computer has absolutely no means of doing despite silicon valley hype.  For a computer to act 'on the fly' requires an 'on the fly' command written into its code and of course that means it is no longer 'on the fly'.  But there are cases where our natural ability to adapt things to taste can and will be be disciplined out of us out of necessity.  For example military breeding and transition to conformity enables collectives to be relatively certain how each unit will behave.  This also has rich pickings outside the military where companies and corporate interests can manipulate behaviors and market.  It is also used, to a lesser and modest, degree in breeding or producing successful sports people and teams. 

Offline RaySmith

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2019, 10:22:24 AM »
Clough was definitely human, and of his time -sadly we will never see a manager like him again. He wouldn't be allowed today.

Impulsive -signing players he saw could really make a difference, like Dave Mackay, above his Chairman's head for his unfashionable, mid  table , second division  Derby side. No-one could have predicted the success he had with that side. Then repeating that success with equally unfashionable Forest.

Driven,partly, it's claimed, by a career ending injury caused by an over the top tackle, early in his pro career, which also may have given him a lifelong aversion to dirty play, that made him tell the Leeds side he'd newly become manager of 'you can take all your medals and cups and throw them in the bin, because you won them through cheating.'

He also  manhandled Forest fans who'd run onto the pitch.

That he ended up up a sad alcoholic, like so many 'characters' from the game in those days, seems somehow inevitable, and something that would never happen to a computer!

But I'm not  making a point against use of computers, or the use of algorithms in the modern game- they are a fact of life, and  a very useful tool. The game is a lot better today in terms of  performance levels, fitness, training, equipment etc., and modern technology helps in every aspect of this.

Society and football have changed a lot, for the better in many ways,  and you'll never see the characters  who graced the game, and certainly Fulham, in the past - especially  not with the power of the media and social media, that monitors and judges every  aspect of behaviour, and  minutely examines  and calls out every  weakness or fault, on and off the pitch, and in some ways that is good, but modern football certainly lacks something compered to the past - soul and heart maybe.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 10:35:22 AM by RaySmith »

Offline toshes mate

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2019, 11:31:34 AM »
Excellent summary about Cloughie, RaySmith. 

I'd ask anyone on here what would be their first rule about being a professional football club manager both out of curiosity and as a sense of my inability to know how you would begin to tackle such an issue via a series of algorithms e.g. Since as it may rain tomorrow but everything else is much less certain, where on earth do I start to be a football manager?


Offline Chutney

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2019, 11:55:22 AM »
In his defence we absolutely failed to improve our defence in that January window and it was ultimately our demise.

Tony Khan signed Havard Nordveit.

Offline MJG

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2019, 03:40:21 PM »
Excellent summary about Cloughie, RaySmith. 

I'd ask anyone on here what would be their first rule about being a professional football club manager both out of curiosity and as a sense of my inability to know how you would begin to tackle such an issue via a series of algorithms e.g. Since as it may rain tomorrow but everything else is much less certain, where on earth do I start to be a football manager?
Maybe being open minded is an important trait in this day an age. I don't think as an owner I would want someone with the attitude of my way or the highway. Yes you can have principles and beliefs, but no one is perfect and new approache, ideas and suggestions are all things he would need I believe.

Offline HV71

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2019, 04:39:04 PM »
Maybe being open minded is an important trait in this day an age. I don't think as an owner I would want someone with the attitude of my way or the highway. Yes you can have principles and beliefs, but no one is perfect and new approache, ideas and suggestions are all things he would need I believe.



So very , very true - dogma invariably leads to demise ( in any walk of life )


Offline toshes mate

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2019, 05:40:26 AM »
Excellent summary about Cloughie, RaySmith. 

I'd ask anyone on here what would be their first rule about being a professional football club manager both out of curiosity and as a sense of my inability to know how you would begin to tackle such an issue via a series of algorithms e.g. Since as it may rain tomorrow but everything else is much less certain, where on earth do I start to be a football manager?
Maybe being open minded is an important trait in this day an age. I don't think as an owner I would want someone with the attitude of my way or the highway. Yes you can have principles and beliefs, but no one is perfect and new approache, ideas and suggestions are all things he would need I believe.
I think there is much evidence that by the time you get to be an owner of something, or in an unmerited high position to influence others, you are much less likely to have an open mind.  Most of the influences around us these days are people with lots of money and perhaps the open mind would ask where that is heading in the hope there are an array of possible answers to reflect upon.  Perhaps the dogma is about money and power or boith. 

Online The Rational Fan

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2019, 07:04:46 AM »

I think there is much evidence that by the time you get to be an owner of something, or in an unmerited high position to influence others, you are much less likely to have an open mind.  Most of the influences around us these days are people with lots of money and perhaps the open mind would ask where that is heading in the hope there are an array of possible answers to reflect upon.  Perhaps the dogma is about money and power or boith.

Shahid Khan's ownership is totally merited, SK success in "Bumper Bars" matches that of Brian Clough in "Football" both taking second division national companies to be one of the best in the world. In a capitalist system, someone that succeeds in one industry (like bumper bars) is entitled to invest their profits into another industry (like football). Lets not forget that Fulham has made 35 years straight of financial losses, maybe its about time someone that has made 35 years of enormous financial profits runs the club.

Shahid Khan bought "Flex-N-Gate" in 1980 with $16,000 of his own money and to build it to become worth around $9,000,000,000. Fulham FC invest more money in Richard Money (£47k) than SK did to build a company big enough to buy every player in the Premier League (£7B). Its no different to Alex Ferguson investing in race horse using the money from his success in football. Shahid Khan created the most defect free bumper bars and hopes to use similar methods to do the same in football.

Shahid Khan genius was to use statistics like careful measurement of bumpers, algorithms like SIX SIGMA and computers to make better "Bumper Bars" in the 1980's and 90s. Now, FFC need many millions of pounds of investment to get this club succesful and "The Khans" are prepared to invest their money based on the assumption that statistics, algorithms and computers will revolutionize football in the 2020's like it did in bumper bars of the 1980's. All Investment is good for fans so DON"T LOOK A GIFT HORSE IN THE MOUTH.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 07:24:41 AM by The Rational Fan »

Offline MJG

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2019, 05:23:08 PM »
Excellent summary about Cloughie, RaySmith. 

I'd ask anyone on here what would be their first rule about being a professional football club manager both out of curiosity and as a sense of my inability to know how you would begin to tackle such an issue via a series of algorithms e.g. Since as it may rain tomorrow but everything else is much less certain, where on earth do I start to be a football manager?
Maybe being open minded is an important trait in this day an age. I don't think as an owner I would want someone with the attitude of my way or the highway. Yes you can have principles and beliefs, but no one is perfect and new approache, ideas and suggestions are all things he would need I believe.
I think there is much evidence that by the time you get to be an owner of something, or in an unmerited high position to influence others, you are much less likely to have an open mind.  Most of the influences around us these days are people with lots of money and perhaps the open mind would ask where that is heading in the hope there are an array of possible answers to reflect upon.  Perhaps the dogma is about money and power or boith.
I wasn't talking about an owner being open minded.... You asked what would someone want from a manager.


Offline Twig

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2019, 01:26:45 PM »

I think there is much evidence that by the time you get to be an owner of something, or in an unmerited high position to influence others, you are much less likely to have an open mind.  Most of the influences around us these days are people with lots of money and perhaps the open mind would ask where that is heading in the hope there are an array of possible answers to reflect upon.  Perhaps the dogma is about money and power or boith.

Shahid Khan's ownership is totally merited, SK success in "Bumper Bars" matches that of Brian Clough in "Football" both taking second division national companies to be one of the best in the world. In a capitalist system, someone that succeeds in one industry (like bumper bars) is entitled to invest their profits into another industry (like football). Lets not forget that Fulham has made 35 years straight of financial losses, maybe its about time someone that has made 35 years of enormous financial profits runs the club.

Shahid Khan bought "Flex-N-Gate" in 1980 with $16,000 of his own money and to build it to become worth around $9,000,000,000. Fulham FC invest more money in Richard Money (£47k) than SK did to build a company big enough to buy every player in the Premier League (£7B). Its no different to Alex Ferguson investing in race horse using the money from his success in football. Shahid Khan created the most defect free bumper bars and hopes to use similar methods to do the same in football.

Shahid Khan genius was to use statistics like careful measurement of bumpers, algorithms like SIX SIGMA and computers to make better "Bumper Bars" in the 1980's and 90s. Now, FFC need many millions of pounds of investment to get this club succesful and "The Khans" are prepared to invest their money based on the assumption that statistics, algorithms and computers will revolutionize football in the 2020's like it did in bumper bars of the 1980's. All Investment is good for fans so DON"T LOOK A GIFT HORSE IN THE MOUTH.


Err, if you know anything about quality process improvement you would know that 6 sigma is not an algorithm.

Offline Lyle from Hangeland

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2019, 03:03:37 PM »
Will an Algorithm based club ever achieve the success that Cloughie had at Forrest, I doubt it.
While there will never be another Clough there has to be room for strong individual managers with algorithms used as a supporting tool.

Brian Clough had an algorithm, it was in his head. One rule he followed was find players with skill and problems that would improve if they focused on football more. He loved players with skill, problems (like gaming) and a desire to overcome them.

For those that think an algorithm is always run by a computer, let me remind you the word algorithm predates the computer by about a 1000 years. An algorithm is a set of rules one follows to solve a problem and traditional has been performed in someone’s head (eg the managers head).

Preach it. You would think the enlightened city folk that are Fulham fans would know this. I grew up in the country and even I know this. Read it in a book.

Offline toshes mate

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2019, 10:42:24 AM »
My response to the open/closed mind suggestion was intended to point up the fact that it is perfectly possible to have an open and closed mind at the same time.  As an example a person may totally believe there is a higher power (i.e. ‘closed mind’) without having pre-conceived ideas of what that higher power is (i.e. ‘open mind’).   In fact the narrowing and broadening of mind from open to closed, and back to open, tends to be the self-confirming bias in all of us unless we fight to keep it open about everything and run the risk of never making our minds up or settling for anything.   

The Rational Fan expresses his mind’s eye about Khan Snr up the thread by recalling all those things that confirm his point of reference, just as I could tell him ten things about Khan Snr that either, a) he chose to leave out of his piece, or b) he doesn’t know.  Have either of us a closed or an open mind or are we just expressing confirmatory opinion?

It’s impossible to start an algorithm to breed a football manager when you know the question posed is going to be impossible to answer truthfully – ever.   

My best guess as a starting point for developing an algorithm would be the qualities required to be a football manager and how they can be quantified.  That one of those qualities would be the ability to thrive with any owner could be high on the list, but, again, how do you quantify it?

Offline FFC1987

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2019, 11:16:53 AM »
Is this the same Claudio that had said upon signing that he came a number of times to watch, said we had the makings of a very decent side and he knew exactly where our weaknesses in defence were hence why he was so confident we'd stay up?

Clutching at straws here buddy. You just didn't have a clue.

Online The Rational Fan

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Re: Ranieri blames players and alogithms for his troubles at Fulham
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2019, 11:01:34 PM »
My response to the open/closed mind suggestion was intended to point up the fact that it is perfectly possible to have an open and closed mind at the same time.  As an example a person may totally believe there is a higher power (i.e. ‘closed mind’) without having pre-conceived ideas of what that higher power is (i.e. ‘open mind’).   In fact the narrowing and broadening of mind from open to closed, and back to open, tends to be the self-confirming bias in all of us unless we fight to keep it open about everything and run the risk of never making our minds up or settling for anything.   

The Rational Fan expresses his mind’s eye about Khan Snr up the thread by recalling all those things that confirm his point of reference, just as I could tell him ten things about Khan Snr that either, a) he chose to leave out of his piece, or b) he doesn’t know.  Have either of us a closed or an open mind or are we just expressing confirmatory opinion?

It’s impossible to start an algorithm to breed a football manager when you know the question posed is going to be impossible to answer truthfully – ever.   

My best guess as a starting point for developing an algorithm would be the qualities required to be a football manager and how they can be quantified.  That one of those qualities would be the ability to thrive with any owner could be high on the list, but, again, how do you quantify it?

I don’t actually form my view and then find facts to confirm that view, i do the opposite. I find what "I think" are the important facts and that forms my viewpoint. Of course, different facts are important to you. I would note my perspective is a bit different to those fans that think "things couldn't get worse than this", for me such logic could only be possible for someone that wasn't a Fulham fan in the late 1980s.

For me, our two most important things qwe need from our owner are a) we need an owner that can pour money into the club (unlike Mike Ashley) and b) we need an owner happy to lose money (unlike the Glazers). For me, spending money wisely is a distant third as long as our owner keeps backing our DOF with more money.

Tony Khan's mistakes costs less for SK than season ticket does to a minimum wage earner, hope it continues. Tony Khan has apologises to the fans about wasting 100m, but I doubt his dad even requires an apology as its only £100m (which is about what SK saved by not having Tony Khan as CEO of FlexNGate).
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 11:45:43 PM by The Rational Fan »