I knew we would lose when LE Marchand came io

[Sting of the North]

Judging Le Marchand based on his passing is like judging Bettinelli on his hold up play.

He isn't a very good defender. When he is on the pitch, we lose. It IS as simple as that.

When Hector comes in, hopefully he is moved on.

A completely meaningless comparison. Passing is a big part of our defenders game. Hold up play is not a part of Bettinelli's game. Also, almost nothing is ever as simple as just describing something in the most subjective and shallow way possible. Not even if one uses capital letters.

With that said, never been a fan of MLM myself, but as Matt points out, it will always be an uphill battle for most of the players brought in for our remarkably unsuccessful PL campaign. I would probably rate MLM in the same bracket as Odoi and Ream which is competent but not great Championship defenders.

Disagree  -  Ream was possibly our player of the season when we won the playoffs & Odoi invaluable when Kalas form dropped, even scoring the key goal to get us to the final. Odoi still a valuable squad player who's versatility is excellent & useful, Ream who's standards may have dropped some with age/injuries is still a much better defender than MLM who is and always has been a bit rubbish really.

And still neither of them really managed to outperform MLM in our PL season (all three of them looked out of their depth). Both of them also looked half decent at best at the start of their Fulham careers. It is not like MLM has ever been given the opportunity to play regularly in an at least decently functioning Fulham team. Therefore it is easy for fans to just lazily assume that MLM can never be a decent defender at this level. Just look at your own last sentence above, to me it looks like you have long ago apparently made up your mind on him. I guess that is more convenient.

[FFC1987]

Judging Le Marchand based on his passing is like judging Bettinelli on his hold up play.

He isn't a very good defender. When he is on the pitch, we lose. It IS as simple as that.

When Hector comes in, hopefully he is moved on.

A completely meaningless comparison. Passing is a big part of our defenders game. Hold up play is not a part of Bettinelli's game. Also, almost nothing is ever as simple as just describing something in the most subjective and shallow way possible. Not even if one uses capital letters.

With that said, never been a fan of MLM myself, but as Matt points out, it will always be an uphill battle for most of the players brought in for our remarkably unsuccessful PL campaign. I would probably rate MLM in the same bracket as Odoi and Ream which is competent but not great Championship defenders.

Disagree  -  Ream was possibly our player of the season when we won the playoffs & Odoi invaluable when Kalas form dropped, even scoring the key goal to get us to the final. Odoi still a valuable squad player who's versatility is excellent & useful, Ream who's standards may have dropped some with age/injuries is still a much better defender than MLM who is and always has been a bit rubbish really.

And still neither of them really managed to outperform MLM in our PL season (all three of them looked out of their depth). Both of them also looked half decent at best at the start of their Fulham careers. It is not like MLM has ever been given the opportunity to play regularly in an at least decently functioning Fulham team. Therefore it is easy for fans to just lazily assume that MLM can never be a decent defender at this level. Just look at your own last sentence above, to me it looks like you have long ago apparently made up your mind on him. I guess that is more convenient.

To slightly counter your point, have you ever seen MLM play well in this team because I'm struggling. So unless he trains well that you see and I don't, he's just not performing at a high enough level to warrant much praise to be honest.

[Sting of the North]

To slightly counter your point, have you ever seen MLM play well in this team because I'm struggling. So unless he trains well that you see and I don't, he's just not performing at a high enough level to warrant much praise to be honest.

I do not see that as a counter to my point, since it took many games before I saw Ream play well in our team. Which was one of my points. But to clarify, I did not think MLM for most PL games looked worse than Ream or Odoi, and in fact he did look decent to me several times. I am however a much bigger fan of both Ream and Odoi because I have good memories of them playing. Even under our promotion season however they did not in my opinion look that great, but they did fit very well into the way we played. Odoi is in fact one of my favourite Fulham players.

This season I have seen very little of MLM. I have so far only managed to watch first half against Hull. MLM looked decent to me, but he is no full back in my book. I have seen nothing to suggest that he is and always have been "a bit rubbish".

[RaySmith]

I think it  a bit unfair to blame MLM for the first goal.

Mawson missed a tackle on the half way line , and went to ground, taken out of the game, and Hull attacked at pace, unopposed down the left. They took us apart with  fast, skilful break, when we were attacking and lost possession,as  often seems to happen this season.

I doubt if MLM could have got a head to the cross, but did block the  immediate shot, but then turned his back on the player, seeming to lose his bearings. He had also just come on and was still getting used to the pace of the game.

I don't think he did a lot wrong apart from that, but isn't really an lb, and better as a cb, though prone to error as we know but on this occasion i don't  think he was solely, or mainly, to blame.

[FFC1987]

To slightly counter your point, have you ever seen MLM play well in this team because I'm struggling. So unless he trains well that you see and I don't, he's just not performing at a high enough level to warrant much praise to be honest.

I do not see that as a counter to my point, since it took many games before I saw Ream play well in our team. Which was one of my points. But to clarify, I did not think MLM for most PL games looked worse than Ream or Odoi, and in fact he did look decent to me several times. I am however a much bigger fan of both Ream and Odoi because I have good memories of them playing. Even under our promotion season however they did not in my opinion look that great, but they did fit very well into the way we played. Odoi is in fact one of my favourite Fulham players.

This season I have seen very little of MLM. I have so far only managed to watch first half against Hull. MLM looked decent to me, but he is no full back in my book. I have seen nothing to suggest that he is and always have been "a bit rubbish".

Could you be specific on good performances because they have alluded me? I'll grant its probably fair to say he's bad in a bad bunch and no one excelled but I'm yet to see any performances where I think he gives much to this team and in most appearances I've seen him, has a contribution to a goal conceded. Now, I'm not blaming him solely for first goal against Hull but having listened to the Hull commentary 'I have to say Marchand switched off there' and I have to agree, i think he did albeit, there were more errors in the build up to this goal but MLM should of done better too.

[Sting of the North]

Could you be specific on good performances because they have alluded me? I'll grant its probably fair to say he's bad in a bad bunch and no one excelled but I'm yet to see any performances where I think he gives much to this team and in most appearances I've seen him, has a contribution to a goal conceded. Now, I'm not blaming him solely for first goal against Hull but having listened to the Hull commentary 'I have to say Marchand switched off there' and I have to agree, i think he did albeit, there were more errors in the build up to this goal but MLM should of done better too.

Note that I specifically said decent performances, because in my opinion he has never looked more than that so far.

I know that I thought that he looked decent in our run in last season. He definitely played a big part in our three consecutive clean sheets, for example.

[FFC1987]

Could you be specific on good performances because they have alluded me? I'll grant its probably fair to say he's bad in a bad bunch and no one excelled but I'm yet to see any performances where I think he gives much to this team and in most appearances I've seen him, has a contribution to a goal conceded. Now, I'm not blaming him solely for first goal against Hull but having listened to the Hull commentary 'I have to say Marchand switched off there' and I have to agree, i think he did albeit, there were more errors in the build up to this goal but MLM should of done better too.

Note that I specifically said decent performances, because in my opinion he has never looked more than that so far.

I know that I thought that he looked decent in our run in last season. He definitely played a big part in our three consecutive clean sheets, for example.

yeh, I just don't see it. Even in those clean sheets, we were rather fortunate and rode our luck at times with teams missing a shed load of chances! Hopefully he coems good and starts to excel but its hard to see with recent performances.

[Dr Quinzel]

Judging Le Marchand based on his passing is like judging Bettinelli on his hold up play.

He isn't a very good defender. When he is on the pitch, we lose. It IS as simple as that.

When Hector comes in, hopefully he is moved on.

A completely meaningless comparison. Passing is a big part of our defenders game. Hold up play is not a part of Bettinelli's game. Also, almost nothing is ever as simple as just describing something in the most subjective and shallow way possible. Not even if one uses capital letters.

With that said, never been a fan of MLM myself, but as Matt points out, it will always be an uphill battle for most of the players brought in for our remarkably unsuccessful PL campaign. I would probably rate MLM in the same bracket as Odoi and Ream which is competent but not great Championship defenders.

I thought it was an obviously overly dramatic comparison to make the point, which obviously stands - I didn't think anyone would take the idea seriously. This board. Not much nuance or fun, is there?

On another note, what evidence do you have to show that Le Marchand is at the level of Ream?

It wouldn't be an uphill battle for him if he was, you know, good.

[Sting of the North]

I thought it was an obviously overly dramatic comparison to make the point, which obviously stands - I didn't think anyone would take the idea seriously. This board. Not much nuance or fun, is there?

On another note, what evidence do you have to show that Le Marchand is at the level of Ream?

It wouldn't be an uphill battle for him if he was, you know, good.

It was an obvious exaggeration yes, but my point was that your point was wrong not that I took your example at face value. To try to be a bit clearer about what my opinion on this is; Passing as well as other attacking skills are very important parts of the game of our defenders. That's why players such as Ream and Bryan with questionable pure defensive capabilities works generally rather well in this team. As such, assessing the players ability to pass is a valuable part of assessing how good he is within our system. 

On your second note, I did not know that one needed to provide evidence to support something subjective such as an opinion. I merely tried to point out that in my opinion neither Ream, Odoi or MLM are great championship defenders, but that I also do not believe that any of them are crap. I believe that given a run in a fairly successful team at this level, there is a decent chance that MLM would look fairly good.

On your last note, I completely disagree that the general appreciation of a player is necessarily just an objective reflection of how good they are.

[Dr Quinzel]

Sting, you don't have to evidence it - just bad phrasing from me. Better would have been for to ask 'why do you feel that way?'. It's not something I think many others would feel re Le Marchand compared to Ream - wasn't trying to be a d***.

Re defenders being judged on passing, it's my opinion that yes, every player should be reasonable at the basics, but when I'm judging a player I'm going to judge them first and foremost on the KPI's of their position as I see them. For a defender, their ability defending and others come long before their passing. In the same way I wouldn't judge Mitrovic on his marking anywhere close to being an important marker for him.

[Sting of the North]

Sting, you don't have to evidence it - just bad phrasing from me. Better would have been for to ask 'why do you feel that way?'. It's not something I think many others would feel re Le Marchand compared to Ream - wasn't trying to be a d***.

Re defenders being judged on passing, it's my opinion that yes, every player should be reasonable at the basics, but when I'm judging a player I'm going to judge them first and foremost on the KPI's of their position as I see them. For a defender, their ability defending and others come long before their passing. In the same way I wouldn't judge Mitrovic on his marking anywhere close to being an important marker for him.

No worries, did not take it in that manner initially either. I tried to explain my reasoning above. The point is not really that i think MLM is very good, but rather that we have several not very good players in a similar position that has, at least occasionally, performed very well within the team. MLM has been a regular in a good Ligue 1 team, which to me says that it is likely that he can perform on at least a half decent Championship level. I also think that neither of MLM, Ream or Odoi is good enough to be a regular starter in the PL. My further point was that basically no one rated Ream for a good while after he first arrived, and that it is not unlikely at all that MLM given a good run in the team would also be able to improve his performances. Confidence is after all an important ingredient for most players to perform well.

On your other point, I am happy to disagree on whether passing ability is an important KPI for defenders within this Fulham team.