Author Topic: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?  (Read 1322 times)

Online 3-lions

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2020, 11:42:07 AM »
Parker can be a support to the players? i suggest he is under pressure himself . The reality is we were only playing the 7th or 8th best team in the league and lost 3 nil at home. Look and watch other games and see Leeds and Brighton just to name two that are our relegation rivals play alot better against better teams and not only score but create other chances. DUNK for example. Did Fulham create anything like that open?
Parker must decide and make correct decisions about the players he picks and tactics for Wed/sat games or the Doomslayers will have to come out in force.

 051 take not.

Offline Statto

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2020, 01:31:14 PM »
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 01:33:34 PM by Statto »

Offline Matt10

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2020, 01:41:21 PM »
If you look at it from an actual build up perspective, as in our defense getting beat due to high quality, it was the 3rd goal that showcased that. The loss was highly preventable, we just made terrible mistakes where it mattered the most. First goal, Ream a bit lazy in his attempt to clear. 2nd goal, naive positioning on the corner, and Hector's beat - while Rodak couldn't find the ball (difficult still). 3rd goal, Hector for some odd reason is all the way to the left side halfway line following Hector around - and completely over-commits; exposes Odoi and Ream on the opposite side. Gunners all out with 6 players in our box. Quality finish from Aubameyang.

Reed and TC actually helped us maintain control where it mattered. They built up our attacks and kept calm in transition. Arsenal were quality in their crisp passing and bypassing our midfield at times, but we were able to track back and build numbers defensively well. Only a couple times where Reed looked exposed where a direct pass should've been intercepted, but can't fault him too much as he had already chased the likes of Willian and Elneny.

The issue we had was a toothless attack. We had 5 total shots - that's never going to work. Our conversion rate last year wasn't great with higher amount of shots, so it's naive to think that we're going to get results hoping for more precision. We need to focus on what is missing - and that is high quality wingers who can find the back of the net. Everyone hated Schurrle, but he could find the back of the net. More of the scoring, less of his defensive traits though.


Offline FFC In Oz

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2020, 01:44:24 PM »
I actually thought Reed was one of our better starters against Arsenal.  I acknowledge he's very limited in regards to what he brings when we are in possession, but I can't remember any glaring errors or turnovers.

Cairney on the other hand was shown to be not up to PL standard 2 seasons ago.  He likes to slow the tempo down when he gets the ball, and try and pick the right option.  You just don't get the same amount of time on the ball in the PL as you do in the Championship.  His lack of a right foot and inability to get stuck in and win a challenge can be costly also.  These concerns are masked slightly when he plays in a more advanced number 10 role, but he shouldn't be playing next to Reed/Zambo

Offline Jim©

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2020, 02:28:48 PM »
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

I'd say  TC is one of the least one dimensional players that we've had for a long time. He can pass, he can slow the game down, he can hold onto the ball under pressure and increasingly he can tackle and win headers. He can't go in goal which knocks a dimension off, but he's not very one-dimensional at all. There's not very many CMs that you mention around though- Viera types.

Offline Whitestone

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2020, 04:05:12 PM »
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

Sums it up for me. Both are decent Championship players. Remain to be convinced that they can step up and perform every week in the Prem.


Offline Gloria Hunter

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2020, 04:37:30 PM »
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

I'd say  TC is one of the least one dimensional players that we've had for a long time. He can pass, he can slow the game down, he can hold onto the ball under pressure and increasingly he can tackle and win headers. He can't go in goal which knocks a dimension off, but he's not very one-dimensional at all. There's not very many CMs that you mention around though- Viera types.
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Offline Jim©

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2020, 04:51:58 PM »
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

I'd say  TC is one of the least one dimensional players that we've had for a long time. He can pass, he can slow the game down, he can hold onto the ball under pressure and increasingly he can tackle and win headers. He can't go in goal which knocks a dimension off, but he's not very one-dimensional at all. There's not very many CMs that you mention around though- Viera types.
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In a positive way. So, when we're holding onto our leads as we were 20 odd times last season and under the cosh, he can hold onto the ball and waste some valuable minutes, it worked many many times last season and no reason to think he's not a good outlet that couldn't do the same this.

Offline Matt10

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2020, 04:58:30 PM »
They are playing the Parker system, high percentage passes and many passes. It's not surprise that Reed and TC led the team in both percentages and number of passes. They don't lose the ball and keep possession for us. If people don't understand their roles, and appreciate them, after almost a year's worth of Parkerball - then I'm not sure what else you'll need to be convinced of our play style. Once the ball goes into the box though, we need at least 3 players near it - and that just didn't happen at all vs Arsenal. Hopefully Ipswich and Leeds matches will be different.


Offline bill taylors apprentice

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2020, 05:13:47 PM »
They are playing the Parker system, high percentage passes and many passes. It's not surprise that Reed and TC led the team in both percentages and number of passes. They don't lose the ball and keep possession for us. If people don't understand their roles, and appreciate them, after almost a year's worth of Parkerball - then I'm not sure what else you'll need to be convinced of our play style. Once the ball goes into the box though, we need at least 3 players near it - and that just didn't happen at all vs Arsenal. Hopefully Ipswich and Leeds matches will be different.


[/quote]

I agree.
Far to early to be having OP's like this.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 05:16:10 PM by bill taylors apprentice »

Offline @jolslover

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2020, 05:49:24 PM »
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

Agree 100%.

Reed was our best player post lockdown - no doubt. But a good run of form in the Champ (When most of our players were performing below expectations) led to many treating his signing like we had just signed messi. Facts are he has never had a run in the premier league and several Southampton managers deemed him not good enough to be part of their squad and I worry their is probably reason for that.

Online FFC1987

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2020, 05:59:10 PM »
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

Agree 100%.

Reed was our best player post lockdown - no doubt. But a good run of form in the Champ (When most of our players were performing below expectations) led to many treating his signing like we had just signed messi. Facts are he has never had a run in the premier league and several Southampton managers deemed him not good enough to be part of their squad and I worry their is probably reason for that.

Think thats a bit harsh re Saints managers deeming him not good enough. He's 25 and saints very rarely play youth in the middle particularly when the pecking order had Lemina, Hojberg, Ward-Prowse and Romeu.

I think he would of been offered a competitive squad place for them this year but wanted to come to us after last year which is fair enough. I agree with the sentiments about questioning the step up for him. We'll see. Hes capable I believe but still developing.


Offline Statto

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2020, 08:03:44 PM »
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

I'd say  TC is one of the least one dimensional players that we've had for a long time. He can pass, he can slow the game down, he can hold onto the ball under pressure and increasingly he can tackle and win headers. He can't go in goal which knocks a dimension off, but he's not very one-dimensional at all. There's not very many CMs that you mention around though- Viera types.

Think you've missed the point really. Yes he can vary the pace of the game when we're in possession, but any decent creative midfielder can do that. My point is, he's nigh on useless when we're not in possession. In contrast, Onomah, not a world-beater, but still better than Cairney when we haven't got possession, and better than Reed in possession, therefore a better all-rounder, without even being a great player. In even better players like Anguissa, Lemina, and the guy Luis we've been linked with et al, you've got guys that can actually tackle hard, but also have the skill to get out of a tight spot and play a defence-splitting through ball. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 08:52:07 PM by Statto »

Offline TC's Sporran

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2020, 05:10:56 PM »
that is cairneys biggest weakness the fact when out of possession all he does is half heartedly close down the pass and not close down the player. although he got stuck in v arse a couple of times and recieved a yellow card. also saw an ariel challenge?

i thought the arsenal game was the best ive seen him play for a while. the most hes faced forward for a long time

we had lots of possession and looked good and at times dangerous.
arsenal maybe had taken their foot off the throttle?

i agree he needs to step up to the plate if he wants to cut it at prem level

but to write him off after a game against one of the current top sides is a bit harsh

Offline Matt10

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Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2020, 05:26:35 PM »
that is cairneys biggest weakness the fact when out of possession all he does is half heartedly close down the pass and not close down the player. although he got stuck in v arse a couple of times and recieved a yellow card. also saw an ariel challenge?

i thought the arsenal game was the best ive seen him play for a while. the most hes faced forward for a long time

we had lots of possession and looked good and at times dangerous.
arsenal maybe had taken their foot off the throttle?

i agree he needs to step up to the plate if he wants to cut it at prem level

but to write him off after a game against one of the current top sides is a bit harsh

Honestly, I think most just misunderstand his role, and don't consider what he has in front of him to pass to. There are a lot of generalizations of what Cairney isn't, because context is too difficult to come up with. Some are stuck in the past thinking we're playing the same systems as before, and don't seem to hold enough weight to how much a certain system can have on a player. Cairney fits perfectly for Parker's possession based system, but still people expect that Cairney can regain this status of creative playmaker with zero forward, and varied, runs being made off the ball when he's practically playing a CDM role. Contextually speaking, when he was placed back as a CAM, right behind the striker, a bit of his creativity was evident in pinging balls over the top for our wingers and fullbacks. I think it was interesting in the last 30 minutes to see him stick and twist with Anguissa though. I'm looking forward to seeing what will be done about our central midfield positions in general.