Dementia

[Andy S]

As much as I feel sorry for professional footballers who are being diagnosed with dementia due to heading the ball over 30 years ago, will it change the game? Footballs are now a lot lighter than they were. So hopefully they won't do as much damage. Imagine if they changed the rules and said the ball must not go over head height. Also think about the armatures who play weekend football. Most have never made any money from the game but may well have shortened their lives.

[RaySmith]

Presumably most amateurs , say Sunday league level, only play at weekends and train a couple of times a week.
Pro's are training every day, a well as playing often twice a week at a highly competitive level, with a lot of pressure to  head the ball when  necessary - an Sunday league player could just try to avoid this if they wanted.

Just yesterday, an 'expert ' said on the radio that the modern ball actually weighs as much as the old ball, which is hard to believe i know, as someone   who  has played with the old  water absorbing leather ball, which could  nearly knock you out when you headed it when wet - and if you got the laces side.....!

But, I do wonder, how much actual proof is the  their that these players Alzheimer's was caused by heading  a football , and what percentage of ex players get this disease compared to the general population? Just putting it out there.

There will be a call for change, the there are already guidelines about the amount of heading allowed in training, and for children, and  probably, equally inevitably, a reaction to this from some, if it attempts to change something that is so fundamental to football as heading.

[Jurassic Parker]

Presumably most amateurs , say Sunday league level, only play at weekends and train a couple of times a week.
Pro's are training every day, a well as playing often twice a week at a highly competitive level, with a lot of pressure to  head the ball when  necessary - an Sunday league player could just try to avoid this if they wanted.

Just yesterday, an 'expert ' said on the radio that the modern ball actually weighs as much as the old ball, which is hard to believe i know, as someone   who  has played with the old  water absorbing leather ball, which could  nearly knock you out when you headed it when wet - and if you got the laces side.....!

But, I do wonder, how much actual proof is the  their that these players Alzheimer's was caused by heading  a football , and what percentage of ex players get this disease compared to the general population? Just putting it out there.

There will be a call for change, the there are already guidelines about the amount of heading allowed in training, and for children, and  probably, equally inevitably, a reaction to this from some, if it attempts to change something that is so fundamental to football as heading.

I want to give a precursor note that my knowledge of the topic is mostly that of public knowledge and some personal knowledge, combined with basic googling, so I am ready to be proven wrong.

But sorry mate, there seems to be a strong link. According to a Uni of Glasgow study, there is a 3.5x higher rate of footballers with Alzheimer's.

Now I found that with a basic Google search. Which doesn't mean it's true, as I didn't read the study, and studies are easily manipulated.

But I do know that in Rugby, despite their large concern over in game hits to their head of large proportion, ultimately it means little in terms of long-term head injury. CTE seems to be an issue of small head hits over a long period of time. A few concussions actually has little to offer in terms of problems compared to every day practice of regular hits in rugby. Now until I give you the study this is hearsay, I will try to update this post if I find it. It's very annoying having read a study and not saving it, not thinking it'll be applicable to a convo in future, but I could probably use it now.

But essentially, to my knowledge. And funny enough, it seems obvious when I type it this way, depending on your humour, but:

20-30 years of hits to the head, hurts your head.

Shocker.

[RaySmith]

You've answered my question as to percentage footballers with Alzheimer's, which presumably must be to do with heading, though you rightly raise questions about the study.
Maybe we need more evidence to conclusively say that heading damages the brain.

I know some rugby players have claimed that their early onset Alzheimer's, and they were really young to have this,  was caused by playing rugby. I don't know much about the game, but i suppose  regularly being in the  Scrum could have an impact on the brain.


"But essentially, to my knowledge. And funny enough, it seems obvious when I type it this way, depending on your humour, but:

20-30 years of hits to the head, hurts your head.

Shocker."
My dad used to say to me when i was a kid, over  60 years ago, about how boxing damages the brain- how every blow to the head  jolts the brain, leading to eventual damage, and you thus saw 'punch drunk' boxers

[blingo]

You've answered my question as to percentage footballers with Alzheimer's, which presumably must be to do with heading, though you rightly raise questions about the study.
Maybe we need more evidence to conclusively say that heading damages the brain.

I know some rugby players have claimed that their early onset Alzheimer's, and they were really young to have this,  was caused by playing rugby. I don't know much about the game, but i suppose  regularly being in the  Scrum could have an impact on the brain.


"But essentially, to my knowledge. And funny enough, it seems obvious when I type it this way, depending on your humour, but:

20-30 years of hits to the head, hurts your head.

Shocker."
My dad used to say to me when i was a kid, over  60 years ago, about how boxing damages the brain- how every blow to the head  jolts the brain, leading to eventual damage, and you thus saw 'punch drunk' boxers

And your Dad was right Ray, but that would be after a serious 3 minute pummeling for anywhere between 8 and 15 rounds of boxing wearing 8 oz gloves. Rugby players imho have it far rougher than footballers too. Scrums, tackles serious hits to the body and they get up shrug it off and get on with it. At this rate players will be wearing bubble wrap head gear  to cushion the blows of a glancing header. Todays ball is nothing like the old leather and laces ball and certainly not when wet. I would like to see a comparison study for players since the new ball was brought in. Too many mamby pamby manipulated studies nowadays. Jeez they'll be paying players that can head the ball danger money next.

[Woolly Mammoth]

When it is the right way up.
Dimensions of a size 5 match ball is weight is 14 to 16 oz, circumstances 27 to 28 inches.
Pressure 8.5 to 15.6 lbs per square inch at sea level.

[cookieg]

The lady I heard on 5 Live, the wife of former 'Boro player Bill Gates, I'm sure suggested that although the balls were lighter they travelled a lot faster and so the impact was pretty much the same as the old balls.

Alan Shearer did a programme on this a few years ago which was quite an eye opener but there are probably so many factors which can cause dementia which we may not know about. If you think of the lifestyle of footballers 30-40 years ago - smoking, drinking etc these may well have had a factor in dementia. Also as mentioned there would have been thousands of amateur footballers back then it would be useful to know how many of these have dementia now.

There will no doubt be change which won't be a bad thing if it saves families from having to look after a loved one with dementia.

[bobbo]

Presumably most amateurs , say Sunday league level, only play at weekends and train a couple of times a week.
Pro's are training every day, a well as playing often twice a week at a highly competitive level, with a lot of pressure to  head the ball when  necessary - an Sunday league player could just try to avoid this if they wanted.

Just yesterday, an 'expert ' said on the radio that the modern ball actually weighs as much as the old ball, which is hard to believe i know, as someone   who  has played with the old  water absorbing leather ball, which could  nearly knock you out when you headed it when wet - and if you got the laces side.....!

But, I do wonder, how much actual proof is the  their that these players Alzheimer's was caused by heading  a football , and what percentage of ex players get this disease compared to the general population? Just putting it out there.

There will be a call for change, the there are already guidelines about the amount of heading allowed in training, and for children, and  probably, equally inevitably, a reaction to this from some, if it attempts to change something that is so fundamental to football as heading.

ray thats right the ball does weigh the same as it did it has to be between 14 - 16 ozs and 15lb per square inch pressure . it the structure of the ball and to plastic coating thjat makes them behave differently . i used to run the referees courses at uxbridge many many years back . i knew the laws of the game inside out , parrot fashion . whilst many things have changed since then pitch measurements and ball weight/pressure remains the same.

[The Rational Fan]

There will be a call for change, then there are already guidelines about the amount of heading allowed in training, and for children, and probably, equally inevitably, a reaction to this from some, if it attempts to change something that is so fundamental to football as heading.

The situation already has changed, most kids are now told only to head when it's safe and some have mothers that don't want their kids playing football at all. If football doesn't make changes soon to the games for kids, then it will suffer the same fate as cricket losing popularity as a kids sport. I think kids should play with their feet, until old enough.

[blingo]

Bringing in a 12 oz sponge ball may help lol

[f bloke]

Glasgow University looked into the health records of 8,000 former players and 23,000 matched population controls and explored whether there was a higher of risk of neurodegenerative related diseases amongst former players.  The players researched were players who played in the 30's upto 1998.

The research found that not only were players 3.5 times more likely to die of neurodegenerative causes than their peer group non playing counterparts but the risks increased were dependent on position and career length with defenders having a 5 times greater risk.  Interestingly goal keepers had no greater risk.

In terms of ball technology, reports, by ballistics researchers at Glasgow university earlier this century, suggested that the old leather balls that had been left to soak were only a couple of grams heavier than the modern balls.  There have been synthetic coatings on balls since the 60s but the first wholly synthetic balls were introduced for the 1986 World Cup ie 12 years before the end  date for the statistical sampling.

No material differences were found in the later sample groups.  Listening to the author of the report on the radio recently, he suggested that, if anything, the situation with the modern ball is worse since they are more aerodynamically efficient resulting in greater velocity and  velocity is a key factor here.

It seems to me that if this data is now out there, the potential litigation risk should mean that  the footballing authorities can not afford to ignore this issue and it is good to see that the FA is beginning to look into this but, perhaps unsurprisingly FIFA and UEFA are typically wilfully obtuse on the issue.  The question is what can be done?

The recent directive by the FA on limits during training is a start but very difficult to police let alone enforce. 

In an Article in the Athletic recently they suggested that a ban on headers outside of the penalty boxes would reduce the amount of in game headers by 70%.  It strikes me that this is something that needs to trialled.  Different does not always mean worse. The ban on passing back to the keeper has been a benefit as has short passing from goal kicks.  It may be that new skills will develop and evolve eg the Bobby Zamora chest pass.  But assuming the Glasgow uni research is credible, I don't think the game, financially or morally, can afford to do nothing

[Lighthouse]

As many of a certain age will remember. When you are a kid and head a wet leather ball, often mistimed. It hurts like hell. But how many kids of that age suffer now because of it? It seems to be a growing problem. Did we just miss the problem before or is it actually growing.

Like Cancer, Dementia is everywhere. But then is it getting worse or is medical science just able to diagnose it earlier?

Would banning heading the ball make a difference? How many centre halves compared to other positions have suffered from dementia? I think it would be good if the powers that be do a proper report on this. Like kneeling at games. The response to any problem always seems more to grab attention then help cure the problem.

[filham]

Football nowadays is played a lot more on the ground, it is not too difficult to imagine a game where heading is not allowed.
Why not give it a try in a few friendly matches.

I remember Zamora used to employ his chest to win balls from goal kicks as much as his head.

[Woolly Mammoth]

There will be a call for change, then there are already guidelines about the amount of heading allowed in training, and for children, and probably, equally inevitably, a reaction to this from some, if it attempts to change something that is so fundamental to football as heading.

The situation already has changed, most kids are now told only to head when it's safe and some have mothers that don't want their kids playing football at all. If football doesn't make changes soon to the games for kids, then it will suffer the same fate as cricket losing popularity as a kids sport. I think kids should play with their feet, until old enough.

I fully understand about the dangers of heading a football and concur with the concerns to avoid damage it causes.
I have also heard rumours of biblical proportions from Cambridge University that they are considering proposing a ban on heading a bus queue and heading a search party and heading for trouble, what are your observations on these developments.

[Craven_Chris]

If heading a football does have long term health impacts, and the evidence seems to be piling up to suggest that it does, then the game will need to be modified.

An outright ban on heading seems unthinkable as its such a fundamental element to the game, but if there is a medical need for it, and if protective headgear doesn't help (like the cushioned headband that Raul Jimenez is wearing) doesn't help, then I guess such a ban is inevitable in the end.

A ban on heading would certainly change the game significantly, but if it came in, everyone would just have to get used to it.  But the data is not there yet, although I suspect it wont be long.

I coach under 10s football, and they are banned from heading in training, and it is strongly discouraged in matches, although not yet an offence. But heading is so rare at that age, it would make little difference to implement an outright ban at the younger age groups.

[_Putney_]

Start with boxing, then move on to football.

[RufusBrevettatemyhamster]

Is it just heading the ball though? Surely there is part of it caused by a coming together of heads as well. Or the odd ball in the face etc.
I also feel that the older generation - those that lived through the war - are more susceptible because of undiagnosed mental health issues, PTSD etc. People think living though covid is "surviving" and its been hell etc haven't ever spoken to grandparents and heard horrors that happened on a daily occurance and must be a little offensive to them.

Saying its heading the football is the cause, is a cop out by the experts to be honest.

[Jimsbeerbelly]

Heading goes from football, then so do I ... far to many politics coming into the game now and ruining it.

I get the seriousness of Dementia / Alzheimer's, I've lost family to it, have members suffering now, but once they've dealt with boxing first, then start interfering with football.

[filham]

Start with boxing, then move on to football.

That suggestion is hard to argue against.

[f bloke]

Is it just heading the ball though? Surely there is part of it caused by a coming together of heads as well. Or the odd ball in the face etc.
I also feel that the older generation - those that lived through the war - are more susceptible because of undiagnosed mental health issues, PTSD etc. People think living though covid is "surviving" and its been hell etc haven't ever spoken to grandparents and heard horrors that happened on a daily occurance and must be a little offensive to them.

Saying its heading the football is the cause, is a cop out by the experts to be honest.


———————————-
Why is it a cop out if there is an increasing body of data showing there is a potential serious problem out there.  It may not suit what you/we want to hear but that doesn't make it a cop out or namby pamby or, indeed, untrue.

To respond to some points raised above. The Glasgow report concluded that both the position played and the length of career played a significant factor in the likelihood of dementia as both an illness and a cause of death. Centre backs most at risk followed by centre forwards. GKs at no increased risk at all.

That probably does enough to dispel the footballers lifestyle argument unless it can be shown it is only the old school centre forwards and stopper centre halves who went out on the lash and were the heavy smokers.

In terms of other sports rugby is taking major steps re eg new tackle laws but there is still a long way to go there yet. Personally think boxing days are numbered but the data is there for football in the way, surprisingly, it is not for boxing.  But as the global and most high profile sport I don't think football can continue to ignore this forever and rely on other often less well funded sports to get their house in order first. They can perhaps do this  by taking the lead into further independent research to at least peer group the Glasgow findings and trialling new law changes in the same way that the back pass, goal kick rules and VAR were trialled.

I don't think the outright ban will be achievable immediately, that degree of change would be difficult to sell globally without overwhelming evidence but  perhaps that should be considered in youth football -  but, as mentioned above, a free kick and yellow card for heading outside of the penalty boxes could be considered- with maybe exceptions for a bouncing ball.  If successful, that could be enough for now pending further research