The Palhina question?

[bill taylors apprentice]

Should the club have allowed him to travel to Munich and be prepared to sell if a suitable replacement was available?
Or should the club have taken a leaf from BHA when refusing to sell Caicedo at least initially.

We will never know if there was an "arrangement" that he could go to a bigger club if the offer was right or any other kind of promise when he signed for us.

But these questions are almost redundant now as it seems the genies out of the bottle and the safe bet is he will be gone in the next window.

Trying to look critically at his game without sifting through his stats but using my eyes, my question is why will he be hard to replace?

His touch and control is good but only what you would expect from a PL player, his passing is usually a safe pass to a team mate and his vision and long range passing is again no better than should be expected from a good PL player.

He doesn't have blistering pace but has a great engine and reads the game excellently.

He rarely makes key passes or assists for goals, that's not what he's in the team for but he does contribute with occasional goals. 

IMO he spends a lot of time covering and supporting without touching the ball when we are in possession but comes into his own when we press and are defending.

It seems to me he makes a big difference to our team by playing a limited but highly effective game.

This takes a lot of discipline and willingness to do the dirty work of positioning, timing and tackling which may be a skill in itself but within the capability of many PL quality players.

It's as if a very good footballer is limiting his role to concentrate on doing a limited but excellent job that helps the team. 

So my question is, why can't other highly trained, fit, and intelligent players do this as well as Palhina?

IMO you are looking for a player who is psychologically as well as physically able to concentrate on this role and enjoy it.

As much as I admire his performances for us I find it odd that other players who have the same physical attributes can't replicate Palhina's effect.

It's not like we are looking for the skill to cross, shoot, score, sprint etc (although he has the ability to do most of these well) surely a player who can read a game, time a tackle and support his team mates shouldn't be hard to replace.

Who should we be looking at to fill the role?

[Andy S]

There are some players you cannot replace one for one so I'm Sure the club have it in hand

[alfie]

Should the club have allowed him to travel to Munich and be prepared to sell if a suitable replacement was available?
Or should the club have taken a leaf from BHA when refusing to sell Caicedo at least initially.

We will never know if there was an "arrangement" that he could go to a bigger club if the offer was right or any other kind of promise when he signed for us.

But these questions are almost redundant now as it seems the genies out of the bottle and the safe bet is he will be gone in the next window.

Trying to look critically at his game without sifting through his stats but using my eyes, my question is why will he be hard to replace?

His touch and control is good but only what you would expect from a PL player, his passing is usually a safe pass to a team mate and his vision and long range passing is again no better than should be expected from a good PL player.

He doesn't have blistering pace but has a great engine and reads the game excellently.

He rarely makes key passes or assists for goals, that's not what he's in the team for but he does contribute with occasional goals. 

IMO he spends a lot of time covering and supporting without touching the ball when we are in possession but comes into his own when we press and are defending.

It seems to me he makes a big difference to our team by playing a limited but highly effective game.

This takes a lot of discipline and willingness to do the dirty work of positioning, timing and tackling which may be a skill in itself but within the capability of many PL quality players.

It's as if a very good footballer is limiting his role to concentrate on doing a limited but excellent job that helps the team. 

So my question is, why can't other highly trained, fit, and intelligent players do this as well as Palhina?

IMO you are looking for a player who is psychologically as well as physically able to concentrate on this role and enjoy it.

As much as I admire his performances for us I find it odd that other players who have the same physical attributes can't replicate Palhina's effect.

It's not like we are looking for the skill to cross, shoot, score, sprint etc (although he has the ability to do most of these well) surely a player who can read a game, time a tackle and support his team mates shouldn't be hard to replace.

Who should we be looking at to fill the role?

I'm pretty sure he went knowing if no suitable replacement available, the move would not happen. I wonder just how much his brother/agent had in maybe convincing him that all was ok.
"Look brother there is a lot of money in this for me, err i mean, us, sorry you.

Is that too synical.

[Lighthouse]

Sometimes if you lose a player and cannot replace him or his type of style. Then the team will have to change the way they play and are set up. Hopefully we will learn what we can do without Mitro. But to lose two of our most influential players before the season begins would hurt anybody. While technically we haven't lost Palhinha I somehow have no confidence in some of these players anymore. I thought he would react with a certain amount of class when the late bid and failure to Bayern fell through. Sadly like Mitro his childish behaviour changing photos on Instagram and the childish remarks by his agent and brother leaves me to believe that we have lost him in all but name.

[bigalffc]

I know we have to let him go now but we should remain firm on price. Bayern thinking he is committed to them might try to wriggle downwards.
As to a replacement, one thing I would like to see is not to go back to those who turned us down. e.g McTominay.

[ianthailand]

There are some players you cannot replace one for one so I'm Sure the club have it in hand

The club had it in hand all the summer window that's why we missed out on a number of targets!

[RaySmith]

Sometimes if you lose a player and cannot replace him or his type of style. Then the team will have to change the way they play and are set up. Hopefully we will learn what we can do without Mitro. But to lose two of our most influential players before the season begins would hurt anybody. While technically we haven't lost Palhinha I somehow have no confidence in some of these players anymore. I thought he would react with a certain amount of class when the late bid and failure to Bayern fell through. Sadly like Mitro his childish behaviour changing photos on Instagram and the childish remarks by his agent and brother leaves me to believe that we have lost him in all but name.

Disappointing behaviour to say the least, but not really out of keeping with modern values, and pro football today, I suppose.

But I would expect  him to be a pro and play for us as contracted, and give his all in every game.
But maybe I'm naïve, and he won't play for us again.

[alfie]

There are some players you cannot replace one for one so I'm Sure the club have it in hand

The club had it in hand all the summer window that's why we missed out on a number of targets!

The thing is Mr Ianthailand, we only go by media information, do we really know for sure who those targets were, so we don't know if we missed them, apart from the deadline day 2 to replace Palhinha , and we didn't miss them because they didn't want to come.

[btffc]

Sometimes if you lose a player and cannot replace him or his type of style. Then the team will have to change the way they play and are set up. Hopefully we will learn what we can do without Mitro. But to lose two of our most influential players before the season begins would hurt anybody. While technically we haven't lost Palhinha I somehow have no confidence in some of these players anymore. I thought he would react with a certain amount of class when the late bid and failure to Bayern fell through. Sadly like Mitro his childish behaviour changing photos on Instagram and the childish remarks by his agent and brother leaves me to believe that we have lost him in all but name.

Disappointing behaviour to say the least, but not really out of keeping with modern values, and pro football today, I suppose.

But I would expect  him to be a pro and play for us as contracted, and give his all in every game.
But maybe I'm naïve, and he won't play for us again.

He will play and give it his all. If for nothing else, he has to for Bayern to still want him in January. If he downs tools and looks bad then Bayern will find someone else.

[Thailand Mick]

I know we have to let him go now but we should remain firm on price. Bayern thinking he is committed to them might try to wriggle downwards.
As to a replacement, one thing I would like to see is not to go back to those who turned us down. e.g McTominay.

I think you have always got to try and sign the best players possible not except lesser players because some need more convincing. This is why I advocated not using the domestic loans in the summer. Let's say McTominay is still not getting much playing time at utd, we could now go to him and offer to loan him until the end of the season that way he can see if he enjoys it with us and change his mind. It would give us cover for Palhinha until the end of the season and then if he still didn't want to join we can focus on a replacement in the summer. If we are near the bottom of the table in January it would be so difficult to sign someone of quality not knowing which division we might be in next season.

[alfie]

I know we have to let him go now but we should remain firm on price. Bayern thinking he is committed to them might try to wriggle downwards.
As to a replacement, one thing I would like to see is not to go back to those who turned us down. e.g McTominay.

I think you have always got to try and sign the best players possible not except lesser players because some need more convincing. This is why I advocated not using the domestic loans in the summer. Let's say McTominay is still not getting much playing time at utd, we could now go to him and offer to loan him until the end of the season that way he can see if he enjoys it with us and change his mind. It would give us cover for Palhinha until the end of the season and then if he still didn't want to join we can focus on a replacement in the summer. If we are near the bottom of the table in January it would be so difficult to sign someone of quality not knowing which division we might be in next season.

Good idea.

[simplyfulham]

I think the OP is undervaluing JP a bit here.

His long range passing is a bit better than you give him credit for. 'No better than expected for a good PL player' is a bit harsh.

Also, to say he just reads the game very well is underselling it a bit. In a league where the the transitions can be so quick and deadly. It's a pretty good skill to be able to be so effective at it for a team who don't dominate the ball.

I think part of it seems to be a lack of genuinely top level 6's in Europe in general. It's the reason why you see Caicedo and Lavia going for the amounts they've moved for this summer.

It just seems to be a hard position to fill.

[bill taylors apprentice]

I think the OP is undervaluing JP a bit here.

His long range passing is a bit better than you give him credit for. 'No better than expected for a good PL player' is a bit harsh.

Also, to say he just reads the game very well is underselling it a bit. In a league where the the transitions can be so quick and deadly. It's a pretty good skill to be able to be so effective at it for a team who don't dominate the ball.

I think part of it seems to be a lack of genuinely top level 6's in Europe in general. It's the reason why you see Caicedo and Lavia going for the amounts they've moved for this summer.

It just seems to be a hard position to fill.

Not harsh, trying to be realistic, as good as his long range passing is I'm sure it's a reasonably common skill in a good PL quality player.
His position lends itself to that kind of pass whereas other players may not be in a position to need to do it.

My point is, all his attributes can be found in lesser players but finding them all in one player who can massively influence the outcome of PL games consistently will be a big loss.

Unlike a top keeper or creative players who are born with something special (as well as all the dedicated training) I believe a player such as Palhina could be 'manufactured' easier if they had the right mental approach to the job.

Do we look for a ready made replacement, difficult and expensive or find a player who can be trained to fill the role and enjoy the satisfaction of working for the team.

[WindyCity]

I'm pretty sure he went knowing if no suitable replacement available, the move would not happen. I wonder just how much his brother/agent had in maybe convincing him that all was ok.
"Look brother there is a lot of money in this for me, err i mean, us, sorry you.

Is that too synical.

Nope, not too cynical at all.  Palhinha's agent (his brother) was quick to get and wear out the knee pads in his blathering all over Bayern when the deal went tits up.  I found it rather embarrassing and I wonder how Palhinha the player felt about it.

Regards the topic, although no player in any sport or sports team is irreplaceable, I do think it will be difficult to find a player that has had the impact Palhinha has in this particular team, FFC.  His impact is noticeable and real.

 

[btffc]

I know we have to let him go now but we should remain firm on price. Bayern thinking he is committed to them might try to wriggle downwards.
As to a replacement, one thing I would like to see is not to go back to those who turned us down. e.g McTominay.

I think you have always got to try and sign the best players possible not except lesser players because some need more convincing. This is why I advocated not using the domestic loans in the summer. Let's say McTominay is still not getting much playing time at utd, we could now go to him and offer to loan him until the end of the season that way he can see if he enjoys it with us and change his mind. It would give us cover for Palhinha until the end of the season and then if he still didn't want to join we can focus on a replacement in the summer. If we are near the bottom of the table in January it would be so difficult to sign someone of quality not knowing which division we might be in next season.

I am not at all opposed to McTominay, but I am opposed to him being Palhinha's sole replacement. McTominay is not great as a 6 and would not do a great job replacing Palhinha. He needs to be an 8 that can get forward. To me, he would be a Reed replacement if Wolves/Everton come back with a suitable offer. There would have to be a pure defensive destroyer in addition to McTominay for me to be ok with that.

[hovewhite]

I think if the window was difficult which Silva has said then why hasn't he signed a new deal.More like he's pissed off with the recruitment staff. we will see where we are come Xmas.

[alfie]

I think if the window was difficult which Silva has said then why hasn't he signed a new deal.More like he's pissed off with the recruitment staff. we will see where we are come Xmas.

He is part of the recruiting, he has already said that he was involved.

[simplyfulham]

Not harsh, trying to be realistic, as good as his long range passing is I'm sure it's a reasonably common skill in a good PL quality player.
His position lends itself to that kind of pass whereas other players may not be in a position to need to do it.

I get what you're saying, and it's not ridiculous. But it's a very glass-half-full way of looking at it.

JP's long range playmaking is a bit more then just 'to be expected'. He's got better accuracy than someone like Mattias Jensen for example (plays in the same areas, plays for a team of a similar level).

He also records quite a high number of switches per game. He's like top 5 in the prem for what you'd consider as holding midfielders.

And if you took into account his numbers from his previous 2 years at Sporting, they are even better than what he's done for us.
(Some of that probably playing against significantly worse opponents, yeah for sure)

JP isn't Pirlo, but he's got more ability than he's often given credit for. I think he suffers from how easy he makes it look at times to make good decisions on the ball.

Unlike a top keeper or creative players who are born with something special (as well as all the dedicated training) I believe a player such as Palhina could be 'manufactured' easier if they had the right mental approach to the job.

This is the part I disagree with most tbh.

I think finding good 6's to help you win possession effectively and consistently is really really hard.

If you think back over the last 20 years of the prem, if I asked you to pick out the best wingers I reckon you could easily give me close to 20, maybe 30 names.

It wouldn't be far off for keepers or even playmakers. But for holding midfielders, it would probably be a smaller list.

There's a reason that Claude Makelele came to the Prem and they named a role on the pitch after him. And why Kante won the prem back to back with two different teams.

Reading the game and getting involved and winning those battles, consistently, in one of the most hectic zones on the pitch, is really really really hard to do.

[Sting of the North]

Not harsh, trying to be realistic, as good as his long range passing is I'm sure it's a reasonably common skill in a good PL quality player.
His position lends itself to that kind of pass whereas other players may not be in a position to need to do it.

I get what you're saying, and it's not ridiculous. But it's a very glass-half-full way of looking at it.

JP's long range playmaking is a bit more then just 'to be expected'. He's got better accuracy than someone like Mattias Jensen for example (plays in the same areas, plays for a team of a similar level).

He also records quite a high number of switches per game. He's like top 5 in the prem for what you'd consider as holding midfielders.

And if you took into account his numbers from his previous 2 years at Sporting, they are even better than what he's done for us.
(Some of that probably playing against significantly worse opponents, yeah for sure)

JP isn't Pirlo, but he's got more ability than he's often given credit for. I think he suffers from how easy he makes it look at times to make good decisions on the ball.

Unlike a top keeper or creative players who are born with something special (as well as all the dedicated training) I believe a player such as Palhina could be 'manufactured' easier if they had the right mental approach to the job.

This is the part I disagree with most tbh.

I think finding good 6's to help you win possession effectively and consistently is really really hard.

If you think back over the last 20 years of the prem, if I asked you to pick out the best wingers I reckon you could easily give me close to 20, maybe 30 names.

It wouldn't be far off for keepers or even playmakers. But for holding midfielders, it would probably be a smaller list.

There's a reason that Claude Makelele came to the Prem and they named a role on the pitch after him. And why Kante won the prem back to back with two different teams.

Reading the game and getting involved and winning those battles, consistently, in one of the most hectic zones on the pitch, is really really really hard to do.

Excellent post. Palhinha is world class at breaking up plays. If that was something that could be easily taught there would many more like him. Many players have almost those skills, just like many are almost great scorers. Yet most aren't. Don't think this differs from other skills really. You can try to perfect your athleticism, but to read the game and make those split second decision with such a high success rate on a consistent basis is indeed very rare. Just like 20 goal scorers are rare despite there being a lot of players that can finish off chances.

[SerbianLad]

Palhinha had around 150 tackles last season in the PL. Next best player had 100 (Caicedo I think). He's also had great stats in some other departments, but this is the most obvious example. He's so superior to other players at what he does that I believe it's silly to say he can be easily replaced.