FIFA sinks to a new low.
Is this their further, final, decision in response to further representations from the English and Welsh FAs yesterday?
Quote from: luckykat on November 08, 2011, 05:48:44 PM
FIFA sinks to a new low.
Yes, but bear in mind that most of them were on the losing side 092.gif
Okay, now that I have made a fatuous remark about a serious topic, I had best redeem myself.
To a certain extent, I can see the FIFA point of view. They have rules about what can and can not go on shirts, and as soon as you make an exception, all sorts of nonsense could be introduced.
In this case, though, I think they have got it horribly wrong. The poppy is not glorifying a British victory over the Hun/Frog/Wop/Yank (yes, we have given them a couple of hidings, hence the White House got named after they whitewashed it to hide the soot marks), it is a symbol of remembering the dead of all wars. That's all the dead. Not just ours. Quite a few war graves in British war cemetries in Flanders have the heading, "An Unknown Soldier of the Great War", so no guarantees he is not German, French or whoever, they just think he is probably British Commonwealth.
Somebody asked what if this came in and we wound up playing Germany one November afternoon, would we wear it then? Well, why not? We fought alongside Germans in more wars than we did against them. Maybe they would be happy to wear it too.
We live in an age where nonentities seek power, then are terrified of making a positive decision in case it rebounds on them. FIFA have made themselves look like small minded idiots, not for the first or last time.
To play Devil's advocate, what a shame our FA even bothered asking them if they could wear the poppy. Stick it on the shirt and, if FIFA object as the teams emerge, call the game off (no other shirts available, old boy, terribly sorry, still we must abide by your rules, now go and tell those 80,000 people out there and the TV people what you have decided). That would put them in a real dilemma.
It's a time when we ought to remember, with gratitude and thankfulness, those men and women who gave, and continue to give, their lives in the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom. It is a time which should never be forgotten and one we have a responsibility to support and pass onto the next generation.
FIFA should not be dictating what to do about this, they're utter (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSr66OsH5XJMElKp0KrSk66A7MMu9VpokSzkkl7k1lMsAe96cJnxfiqp2Mg) 's...
There is a simple way around this which nobody has thought of and we should be promoting
Get the players to wear a black armband as that is not against FIFA regulations and on the armband is a red poppy.
Shows respect to the fallen and sticks a finger up at FIFA
Why don't the squad just wear a poppy on their tracksuits. Rules are rules. I doubt when the decision was made to exclude other symbols on National Shirts it wasn't meant to disrespect fallen soldiers.
So lets work within the rules. Does everything have to end in an argument. That in itself shows a lack of respect for those who gave their lives. They didn't question the rules or the orders they were given. They did what was expected of them and lost their lives in the process.
Why has this issue only just cropped up now - this can't be the first England game in mid November, can it?
I think they should wear a poppy engraved with "Two World Wars and one World Cup" on it for the match in November.
And don't try to tell me that will not be sung at great lengths during the match.
Quote from: finnster01 on November 08, 2011, 10:54:49 PM
I think they should wear a poppy engraved with "Two World Wars and one World Cup" on it for the match in November.
And don't try to tell me that will not be sung at great lengths during the match.
And the Germans get to wear a badge saying "sod it, no World Wars but we've got three World Cups and three European Championships"
082.gif
They should all tattoo a poppy on their forehead!
My daughter is in Afghanistan and a couple of her mates have been killed. FIFA's action makes me sooooo angry.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/8878003/England-v-Spain-lets-play-by-Sepp-Blatters-rules-but-still-turn-Wembley-into-a-field-of-poppies.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/8878003/England-v-Spain-lets-play-by-Sepp-Blatters-rules-but-still-turn-Wembley-into-a-field-of-poppies.html)
The Poppy appeal supports veterans from all wars if I'm not mistaken, including current ones. If football wants to separate itself from politics then I can see where they are coming from. There are a number of countries that play under the FIFA governing body who would/will disagree with us wearing a Poppy on our shirts, so FIFA are doing the right thing.
Not to mention how all this media attention has detracted the true values of the Poppy appeal. We live in a day where people wear them to be seen wearing them, not because of their charitableness.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15643295.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15643295.stm)
David Cameron wants Fifa to reconsider poppy ban
Mr Cameron said he did not believe wearing a poppy was a political act
Prime Minister David Cameron has asked Fifa to reconsider its decision to ban England from wearing poppies during Saturday's friendly against Spain.
On Tuesday, the world governing body rejected a second Football Association (FA) request to overturn the ban.
"It seems outrageous," said Mr Cameron. "I hope Fifa will reconsider.
"The idea that wearing a poppy to remember those who have given their lives for our freedom is a political act is absurd."
He added: "Wearing a poppy is an act of huge respect and national pride."
Fifa decrees that shirts should not carry political, religious or commercial messages.
"Such initiatives would open the door to similar initiatives from all over the world, jeopardising the neutrality of football," it said.
Fifa has allowed a period of silence to be held prior to the game against Spain, which takes place the day before Remembrance Sunday.
England will also wear poppies on their training kit, and on Friday they will stand for a two-minute silence.
Wales, who play Norway in Cardiff on Saturday, will observe a minute's silence before kick-off while Scotland, who face Cyprus in a friendly on Friday, will wear poppy-emblazoned training tops.
Former chief executive of the FA David Davies told BBC Radio 5 live that the policy was necessary but needed tweaking.
"Around the world, if you didn't have this rule, people would use it for political or religious or for personal slogans," he said.
"After the game the FA must campaign, perhaps with the Germans, against this far too draconian and ill-thought-through policy."
On Tuesday, Sports Minister Hugh Robertson wrote to Fifa seeking permission for the England and Wales teams to wear poppies.
He commented: "Wearing a poppy is a display of national pride, just like wearing your country's football shirt.
"The British public feel very strongly about this issue - it is not religious or political in any way."
British Fifa vice-president Jim Boyce added: "I think there has to be a bit of common sense used when requests like this come in.
"Armistice Day is a very important day in the FA calendar, as it is with other associations, and I don't think it would offend anybody to have a poppy on the shirts."
Injured England midfielder Jack Wilshere tweeted: "My great-grandad fought for this country in WW2 and I'm sure a lot of people's grandparents did.
"England team should wear poppies on Saturday. It's the nation's tradition and it would be disrespectful not to."
Quote from: Mr_Moon on November 09, 2011, 10:32:07 AM
The Poppy appeal supports veterans from all wars if I'm not mistaken, including current ones. If football wants to separate itself from politics then I can see where they are coming from. There are a number of countries that play under the FIFA governing body who would/will disagree with us wearing a Poppy on our shirts, so FIFA are doing the right thing.
Not to mention how all this media attention has detracted the true values of the Poppy appeal. We live in a day where people wear them to be seen wearing them, not because of their charitableness.
I strongly disagree Mr Moon. I wear mine with pride and I refuse to believe I am in the minority. If you don't care about the men and women who has made the ultimate sacrifice for their country and puts their life on the line every day, just don't wear one.
And BTW, FIFA can go and bugger themself. They won't be around for much longer anyway
Quote from: os5889 on November 09, 2011, 10:35:31 AM
[1]Prime Minister David Cameron has asked Fifa to reconsider its decision to ban England from wearing poppies during Saturday's friendly against Spain.
"The idea that wearing a poppy to remember those who have given their lives for our freedom is a political act is absurd."
He added: [2] "Wearing a poppy is an act of huge respect and national pride."
Fifa decrees that shirts should not carry political, religious or commercial messages.
[1] The
Prime Minister is insisting that it isn't a political issue. A nice ironic flavour to this.
[2] Wearing a poppy is an act of national pride? Err, no mate, it isn't. I don't think Cameron understands what the poppies are about
at all. By saying this, he is illustrating the exact reason why FIFA don't want us wearing them in the first place!
David Cameron - what an idiot!
Firstly let me say one thing I am wholeheartedly behind letting the England team where poppies, I believe it is right and a disgrace that FIFA have banned us from doing so.
However, I do find the viewpoint that we should ignore FIFA or do something to stick it to them slightly hypocritical.
In an age that we are all in arms about the youth of today and their lack of respect in the community and whilst in education. What sort of a message do you think we, the adults are sending out by screaming and scorning and being so keen to disrespect the rules that have been laid down by the governing body - FIFA.
How can we criticise and expect the youth of today to show respect towards authority if we (England AND Wales) are so keen to kick off and throw our toys out of the pram in a state of national uproar every time we don't get our own way - getting the World Cup and now the Poppies.
I am aware this is a massively poignant and sensitive issue and have been attending British Legion Rememberance ceremonies for as long as I can remember. However, our governing body has made a ruling and I feel we should respect it.
Anyway, the way that its come up this year and been so publicly aired it feels like the FA has been told to do something and decided its to rebel like a spotty teenager.
If this was really about poppies the FA really wanted to help they could have made a donation to the British Legion Poppy appeal to the amount of any likely fine and moved on heads held high....
I've given my opinion, time to knuckle down, Im heading to the bomb shelter :028:
Sent from my typerputer, in my house wearing a poppy on my Scarlets shirt!
Think this is being hyped up beyond reason. I don't think England or any other teams wore Poppies in years gone by so why make a big issue now ? In fact I think wearing them on football shirts trivialises the event which was meant to be silent remembrance of the dead on the 11th minute of the 11th hour of the 11th month. - In years gone by I remember the whole country (schools , offices , factories) fell into solemn remambrance of the dead.
I believe politicians changed the timing to the nearest Sunday so as not to interefere with business.
My Father and Grandfather who fought in the wars and lived in Fulham said that in the twenties and thirties in Fulham you could end up being punched to the ground if you did not observe the silence. It was virtually that way at my school in Fulham in the Fifties - no argument - a common cause.
Seems a long way from chasing a bloody ball around the field ! If the FA care so much let them dedicate all the advertising to the Poppy Appeal and Help for Heoes fund. They won't because they are bloody hypocrites. Failing that pay to decorate the stadium with Poppies.
Quote from: finnster01 on November 09, 2011, 10:41:51 AM
I strongly disagree Mr Moon. I wear mine with pride and I refuse to believe I am in the minority. If you don't care about the men and women who has made the ultimate sacrifice for their country and puts their life on the line every day, just don't wear one.
And BTW, FIFA can go and bugger themself. They won't be around for much longer anyway
Sorry, I should have elaborated. I believe that some people, not all of, wear it because it is the 'done' thing to do and they want to be seen with one. I understand that those, like yourself, wear one because you passionately believe in it.
Of course we are talking about the Swiss here--who never have to take a life or death stand on anything--except hiding looted nazi gold. WE have no honored dead to dig up and bring home from Zurich. I'm sure poppies don't grow on the Matterhorn. :028:
Quote from: In the Enclosure on November 09, 2011, 10:56:17 AM
Think this is being hyped up beyond reason. I don't think England or any other teams wore Poppies in years gone by so why make a big issue now ? In fact I think wearing them on football shirts trivialises the event which was meant to be silent remembrance of the dead on the 11th minute of the 11th hour of the 11th month. - In years gone by I remember the whole country (schools , offices , factories) fell into solemn remambrance of the dead.
I believe politicians changed the timing to the nearest Sunday so as not to interefere with business.
My Father and Grandfather who fought in the wars and lived in Fulham said that in the twenties and thirties in Fulham you could end up being punched to the ground if you did not observe the silence. It was virtually that way at my school in Fulham in the Fifties - no argument - a common cause.
Seems a long way from chasing a bloody ball around the field ! If the FA care so much let them dedicate all the advertising to the Poppy Appeal and Help for Heoes fund. They won't because they are bloody hypocrites. Failing that pay to decorate the stadium with Poppies.
+ 1 :048:
Quote from: In the Enclosure on November 09, 2011, 10:56:17 AM
Think this is being hyped up beyond reason. I don't think England or any other teams wore Poppies in years gone by so why make a big issue now ? In fact I think wearing them on football shirts trivialises the event which was meant to be silent remembrance of the dead on the 11th minute of the 11th hour of the 11th month. - In years gone by I remember the whole country (schools , offices , factories) fell into solemn remambrance of the dead.
I believe politicians changed the timing to the nearest Sunday so as not to interefere with business.
My Father and Grandfather who fought in the wars and lived in Fulham said that in the twenties and thirties in Fulham you could end up being punched to the ground if you did not observe the silence. It was virtually that way at my school in Fulham in the Fifties - no argument - a common cause.
Seems a long way from chasing a bloody ball around the field ! If the FA care so much let them dedicate all the advertising to the Poppy Appeal and Help for Heoes fund. They won't because they are bloody hypocrites. Failing that pay to decorate the stadium with Poppies.
And I remember coming back from a war and nobody gave a damn. You'll never imagine how much that hurt. Couldn't even get folks to buy me a beer as I was skint.
What is better, ignore the veterans and shove the fallen under the carpet or recognize their sacrifice in what I think is a tasteful way? This can never be over hyped in my book. Especially these days when nobody gives a crap about their country anyways.
Don't ever forget, and don't ever be silent because that may make other people forget.
Finnter - I am not saying we should forget because we shouldn't and the silence should be observed on Remembrance Sunday.
However the Poppy Appeal is also about raising funds for soldiers down on their luck (as you were) or injured . But I do think that this year the Politicians and FA are hi- jacking this matter as part of the 'Fifa / Europe etc . can't tell us what to do' movement therefore making it political,
We should put pressure on both to donate substantial funds to the poppy appeal now - they have all acted outraged - now lets see some real money to support our service men and women when they need it.
Hopefully this decision, and our treatment over the World Cup, will be remembered when bag-of-pus Blatter strolls around the Olympics next Summer - I hope he gets loudly boo'd whenever he is sighted.
Football is a sport and not a branch of army or a political stage where countries can promote their wars. Nothing wrong with this decision but I understand some peoples anger with this decision specially if they are from UK because in their mind their wars are justified. I am not arguing here that wars involving UK soldiers now are justified or not only that there should be no mention of wars or politics in football games.
Quote from: MrFantastic on November 09, 2011, 03:40:14 PM
Football is a sport and not a branch of army or a political stage where countries can promote their wars. Nothing wrong with this decision but I understand some peoples anger with this decision specially if they are from UK because in their mind their wars are justified. I am not arguing here that wars involving UK soldiers now are justified or not only that there should be no mention of wars or politics in football games.
It doesn't have jack poo to do with promoting war or justifying war, mate. If that's what you were taught then you need to reeducate yourself. It has to do with honoring those who didn't come back and who mostly had no choice in getting sent and who could have cared less about the politics involved--they died for their mates not politics.
Completely the right decision in my view, if FIFA allows us to wear the poppy on our shirts then how can they object when another country wants to commerorate their war dead who may well have died fighting an unjust, repressive war (possibly involving war crimes etc.). As others have mentioned it is fully appropriate to hold a minutes silence - which we are doing, to wear black armbands - which we are doing.
This has never been a problem in the past it has only become an issue as there becomes more and more pressure on everyone to wear the poppy all the time. It seems like anyone who appears in the national consciousness without a poppy from midway through october right up until the end of rememberance sunday is universally slated. I wear my poppy with pride yet I do so as a personal choice - I don't believe anyone should be vilified for not wanting to wear a poppy, if they have other ways of commemorating the dead/for some reason disagree with the poppy - that's fine. After all the reason behind the wars was so that we could live in a country where different opinions could be expressed.
Quote from: LordNelson on November 09, 2011, 04:03:48 PM
Quote from: MrFantastic on November 09, 2011, 03:40:14 PM
Football is a sport and not a branch of army or a political stage where countries can promote their wars. Nothing wrong with this decision but I understand some peoples anger with this decision specially if they are from UK because in their mind their wars are justified. I am not arguing here that wars involving UK soldiers now are justified or not only that there should be no mention of wars or politics in football games.
It doesn't have jack sh1t to do with promoting war or justifying war, mate. If that's what you were taught then you need to reeducate yourself. It has to do with honoring those who didn't come back and who mostly had no choice in getting sent and who could have cared less about the politics involved--they died for their mates not politics.
Wrong.
"Poppy culture" makes it impossible to criticise our military, and what our military is doing.
-If the EDL starts a campaign about something, you know there's something very ugly going on deep down.
Quote from: flirpit on November 09, 2011, 04:17:25 PM
Completely the right decision in my view, if FIFA allows us to wear the poppy on our shirts then how can they object when another country wants to commerorate their war dead who may well have died fighting an unjust, repressive war (possibly involving war crimes etc.).
... After all the reason behind the wars was so that we could live in a country where different opinions could be expressed.
So why not wear the poppy then? You just rested your own case. Because without a lot of brave men this conversation would be in German and it bugs me to no end 092.gif
I support wearing the poppy I just think that if we do it it open's the door to any tin-pot dictatorship in africa wearing a symbol on their shirt to commemorate the genocide by which their dictators took hold of the country, or china commemorating Maos cultural revolution etc.
My point is that there shouldn't have to be this crusade campaigning for people to wear the poppy, it is (or should be) a personal choice. Politics should stay out of football.
Everybody here would be angry if Iran tried to pull something like this off to remember their dead secret service members who were sent to Iraq to fight the Americans and UK soldiers. In their mind they died for just cause and in your mind your soldiers died for just cause. If you argue that these soldiers had no choice but to go to war, you are wrong. They choose to go to the army and in the army that is what you do go to war. Everybody makes their own decisions at least in USA and UK considering going to the army. It is fine to remember your dead soldiers, but you can do it at home on the street and something like that, but not in any sport games. Sport is here to promote peace and unity among people well some sports are not like fighting sports, but most sport are promoting peace and respect. So by having England have this on their shirts might offend some people watching the game in other countries whose family member might have been killed by a bomb dropped by a UK fighter plane who was killed and was innocent. As I said before some people in UK would be offended if Iran tried to remember their dead who went to fight in Iraq. FIFA is a sport organization and it shouldn't be forced to choose which wars are justified and which are not there.
Should just "temporarily" redesign the shield and add a poppy with the 3 lions and tell 'em to piss off.
People say its not political, and its not political in the domestic sense, however globally, war is political (one country against another, where in most cases, the winner gets to write the history and be proud of their achievements whereas the other is said to be evil) How would most English fans feel remembering the fallen soldiers of Germany or Afghanistan for instance at a football match? What about other nations too, eg Serbia remembering their fallen soldiers playing against say Kosovo.
The poppy, I believe, is only remembering the dead of one nation (or group of nations with regards to the UK). Perhaps its time for the world to create a global Rememberance day for all fallen soldiers, and how would people respect this? I doubt with as much passion as Rememberance day so it is a day, of sorts, for national pride, ie we are remembering those who died for a 'just' cause as opposed to just all soldiers.
I believe, as others have mentioned above, that football is a sport, it is neutral and should only be about the sport. I cannot believe the build up by the press and politicians with this, all trying to point score.
Also, with regards to the poppy, I personally find it odd as an Aussie that you have Rememberance Day which is not a public holiday and display the poppy for weeks ahead. I say this as our national rememberance day is ANZAC day being, a public holiday with dawn service, parades etc. I'm not saying that we shouldn't respect the lives of those who gave the ultimate sacrifice fighting for their country (we most definitely should) however I think it should just be on one day where everyone's attention is centred on those fallen in combat, not for weeks where it seems it is just the done thing with little regard to the actual thinking of what it would be like to be in that situation of war and remembering all the lives lost fighting for a cause they believed in or was forced into
just on BBC news :yay: :yay:
well on black arm bands that are on the shirt but still :yay: :yay:
I wonder if it had anything to do with some of the EDL lads managing to get on the roof of FIFA HQ this afternoon in protest?
(http://www.sevenoaksart.co.uk/images/poppywreath.gif)
England players WILL wear the poppy after winning their battle with FIFA. After a week of refusing to back down, football's governing body has finally allowed the FA to let their players pull on special armbands bearing the poppy to mark Remembrance Day.
LEST WE FORGET THOSE WHO LAID DOWN THEIR LIVES SO WE COULD DEBATE SUCH TOPICS...SOME OF THE COMMENTS ON HERE RE "POPPY WEARING ON THE ENGLAND SHIRTS" MAKE ME SICK...Shame on you...
I find the idea that wearing a poppy is political is absurd. Try suggesting that all those lovely people in Wootton Bassett who used to line the streets whenever a soldier's coffin was repatriated through the nearby airfield that they were expressing a political view and you will get just blank looks and your sanity would be questioned.
The right result, even though I don't approve the way we went about getting it!
The poppy to me is a sign of remembrance regardless of country, but to those who fell fighting for their country during a war. Anyone who has lost someone or been there knows what I am talking about.
Call me old fashioned or whatever you want, but I will be having the day off and watching the parade in New York on Remembrance day and I am sure many a tear will be shed in my end. God Bless. :Haynes The Maestro:
For all those who support this tell me what would you say if some African country tried to remember their dictator and his soldiers who killed a lot of people, or if Germans remembered their dead soldiers during world war 2 during a football game. How does FIFA decide who and which country has the right to remember their dead soldiers and from which wars. Should FIFA have a group of historian deciding this. Remember some UK wars were not for good cause like those colonial wars in Africa so should FIFA say you can remember your dead soldiers as long as you don't remember soldiers from those wars and for Germany they could say it's fine you remember your soldiers as long as they are not from world war 2 and so on. Some say that these soldiers died so I and we can express our opinions, that is why my opinion doesn't have to agree with yours. Remember your dead soldiers and I will remember my countries dead soldiers but not during sports games in which we should celebrate unity and respect. Can someone who supports wearing poppy answer me how should FIFA decide who has the right to remember their dead or should that right only be for 2 countries UK and USA because they never fought a bad war or killed innocent people well they did but didn't mean to, it's thought that counts and all those dead children and woman killed by mistake by UK bombers in Afghanistan, Iraq don't count. Well be it a mistake or not UK army did kill some innocent people and that is why FIFA doesn't want to start a tradition of remembering soldiers of any country during a football game there.
Quote from: MrFantastic on November 09, 2011, 04:37:12 PM
Everybody here would be angry if Iran tried to pull something like this off to remember their dead secret service members who were sent to Iraq to fight the Americans and UK soldiers. In their mind they died for just cause and in your mind your soldiers died for just cause. If you argue that these soldiers had no choice but to go to war, you are wrong. They choose to go to the army and in the army that is what you do go to war. Everybody makes their own decisions at least in USA and UK considering going to the army. It is fine to remember your dead soldiers, but you can do it at home on the street and something like that, but not in any sport games. Sport is here to promote peace and unity among people well some sports are not like fighting sports, but most sport are promoting peace and respect. So by having England have this on their shirts might offend some people watching the game in other countries whose family member might have been killed by a bomb dropped by a UK fighter plane who was killed and was innocent. As I said before some people in UK would be offended if Iran tried to remember their dead who went to fight in Iraq. FIFA is a sport organization and it shouldn't be forced to choose which wars are justified and which are not there.
Never have I read so much rubbish!!
these soldiers had no choice but go to war [/i]you ever heard of CONSCRIPTION you idiot!!, my Dad married in August 1940 then is CONSCRIPTED into the Army and ends up for 6 years in Burma fighting a fanatical Army who had invaded other countries,while at home his loved ones are being bombed out of their houses nightly and killed. he and thousands of others HAD NO CHOICE, yes he came back, a different person though, terrible experiences locked in his head that he NEVER spoke about. but thousands of of others didn,t and lay buried thousands of miles from their loved ones, mate you really make me sick,what about the thousands of young US men "drafted" into the Army and sent to Vietnam !! they had a chioce!!! IF I get banned for this then good, because you need to be told the FACTS, not sure what nationality you are but not one I would want to be associated with.It's only because of their sacrifice that you have the liberty to write such drivel
Now the door is open for Germany and other countries to do the same an armband on North Korea jerseys remembering their leader and soldiers that died in Korean war and so on. Wait this right might only be reserved for UK and USA because according to media these are only countries that fight justified wars. How will FIFA decide which country has the right to remember their dead soldiers and from which wars. This decision should not have been made should the decision to remember somebody be your personal decision and not forced upon players when you are at it force other team to remember your soldiers. I only hope nobody complains when some other country tries to remember their dead soldiers there.
I am quite happy for Germany and North Korea to remember their dead in any way they want and respect their right to do so! not sure what you are talking about remembering their Leader though! I don't wear a poppy for Winston Churchill's benefit!
Why shouldn't other nationalities respect their dead just because they happen to have been at war with America?
Quote from: epsomraver on November 09, 2011, 07:31:58 PM
Quote from: MrFantastic on November 09, 2011, 04:37:12 PM
Everybody here would be angry if Iran tried to pull something like this off to remember their dead secret service members who were sent to Iraq to fight the Americans and UK soldiers. In their mind they died for just cause and in your mind your soldiers died for just cause. If you argue that these soldiers had no choice but to go to war, you are wrong. They choose to go to the army and in the army that is what you do go to war. Everybody makes their own decisions at least in USA and UK considering going to the army. It is fine to remember your dead soldiers, but you can do it at home on the street and something like that, but not in any sport games. Sport is here to promote peace and unity among people well some sports are not like fighting sports, but most sport are promoting peace and respect. So by having England have this on their shirts might offend some people watching the game in other countries whose family member might have been killed by a bomb dropped by a UK fighter plane who was killed and was innocent. As I said before some people in UK would be offended if Iran tried to remember their dead who went to fight in Iraq. FIFA is a sport organization and it shouldn't be forced to choose which wars are justified and which are not there.
Never have I read so much rubbish!! these soldiers had no choice but go to war [/i]you ever heard of CONSCRIPTION you idiot!!, my Dad married in August 1940 then is CONSCRIPTED into the Army and ends up for 6 years in Burma fighting a fanatical Army who had invaded other countries,while at home his loved ones are being bombed out of their houses nightly and killed. he and thousands of others HAD NO CHOICE, yes he came back, a different person though, terrible experiences locked in his head that he NEVER spoke about. but thousands of of others didn,t and lay buried thousands of miles from their loved ones, mate you really make me sick,what about the thousands of young US men "drafted" into the Army and sent to Vietnam !! they had a chioce!!! IF I get banned for this then good, because you need to be told the FACTS, not sure what nationality you are but not one I would want to be associated with.It's only because of their sacrifice that you have the liberty to write such drivel
As far as I know these days people in UK and USA have the right not to go to the army. I was writing in that context.I even wrote in UK and USA you have a choice now to go to war. As I am from another country it is because my countries soldiers and USA that I have liberty to have an opinion not UK soldiers but than again it is because of USA soldiers that you have the right to have an opinion.You can say what you want but without USA England had no chance in world war 2. My family members also fought in world war 2 but I don't want them remembered in a football game where peace should be promoted. Your choice of words was should I say poor calling people idiots you could have used more creative word and you now don't like my entire nation and it's people because of me you wrote you wouldn't wanted to be associated with my nationality so you are basically like Hitler hating an entire nation and people because few bad people that only happened to belong to a certain group of people. That says a lot about you there
Common sense prevails...
Thankfully, the Fiver shows that not everyone in the UK has gone bonkers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/nov/09/football-fiver-poppies-england-spain-zlatan-ibrahimovic (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/nov/09/football-fiver-poppies-england-spain-zlatan-ibrahimovic)
From the BBC website (it is poppies on black armbands):
Fifa has agreed that the England, Scotland and Wales teams can wear poppies on black armbands during the upcoming internationals.
The move came after Prince William and Prime Minister David Cameron wrote to Fifa asking that England be allowed to wear shirts embroidered with poppies.
Fifa bans political, religious or commercial messages on shirts.
England and Wales have agreed to the compromise. Scotland will consult their opponents before making a decision.
England will wear the armbands in Saturday's friendly against Spain.
"The FA welcomes FIFA's decision and thanks them for agreeing to this," the FA said in a statement.
The Football Association of Wales confirmed its players will wear the armbands for their match with Norway on Saturday.
Scottish Football Association chief executive Stewart Regan said they hoped to adopt the same approach for the friendly against Cyprus in Larnaca on Friday night.
Regan said: "The decision is a pragmatic solution to the fact that FIFA's rules forbid the wearing of the poppy on the match shirt.
"Subject to the approval of the Cypriot FA as the host nation we will also adopt this approach in our friendly match on Friday night.
"We believe this is a fitting way to show our respect for those members of the armed forces who have lost their lives fighting for their country."
The Fifa announcement of the compromise between the Football Association and Fifa came shortly after it was revealed that the Duke of Cambridge had written a letter to world football's governing body in his position as president of the FA.
Clarence House said the Prince was "dismayed" by Fifa's initial stance ahead of Saturday's England match against Spain.
DID YOU KNOW?Continue reading the main story
No poppies were worn when England played Brazil on 14 November 2009
Earlier on Wednesday, Mr Cameron said he would also write to Fifa asking it to lift the ban ahead of England's game with the world champions.
"It seems outrageous," said Mr Cameron. "I hope Fifa will reconsider."
A spokesman for St James's Palace said the Prince was pleased with the compromise.
A Downing Street spokesman said Mr Cameron welcomed Fifa's decision, saying: "It's a sensible way forward."
As an alternative to having embroidered poppies on their shirts, the FA had previously said England players would wear black armbands during the game and lay a wreath on the pitch during the national anthems.
England and Wales' rugby league players will be wearing poppies on their shirts this weekend, along with the other two teams - Australia and New Zealand - involved in the Four Nations.
Mr Fantastic, the poppies are a means of remembering the dead of ALL wars (both world wars and those since then). Your point that the soldiers in Iran and Afghanistan did not have to join just ignores the fact that there was conscription in both world wars. As for your earlier point, if the Germans or anyone else want to remember their dead that's fine by me. The poppies are a way of remembering the soldiers who died, not the wars.
Quote from: MrFantastic on November 09, 2011, 08:02:15 PM
remembering their leader
What an earth are you talking about? What have our poppies got to do with remembering a leader?
Quote from: MrFantastic on November 09, 2011, 08:02:15 PM
Now the door is open for Germany and other countries to do the same an armband on North Korea jerseys remembering their leader and soldiers that died in Korean war and so on. Wait this right might only be reserved for UK and USA because according to media these are only countries that fight justified wars. How will FIFA decide which country has the right to remember their dead soldiers and from which wars. This decision should not have been made should the decision to remember somebody be your personal decision and not forced upon players when you are at it force other team to remember your soldiers. I only hope nobody complains when some other country tries to remember their dead soldiers there.
If Germany/Korea or anybody else wish to remember their war dead in the manner that we do I would applaud it,nobody is celebrating winning wars with this,just remembering the people who died so the living can enjoy the freedoms that they fought and died for!
Quote from: Rambling_Syd_Rumpo on November 09, 2011, 09:05:06 PM
If Germany/Korea or anybody else wish to remember their war dead in the manner that we do I would applaud it,nobody is celebrating winning wars with this,just remembering the people who died so the living can enjoy the freedoms that they fought and died for!
I am not sure which "freedoms" that the Germans currently enjoy the soldiers of the Wehrmacht fought for.
I am glad. 065.gif
Finally :dead horse:
Quote from: Pata on November 09, 2011, 09:10:07 PM
Quote from: Rambling_Syd_Rumpo on November 09, 2011, 09:05:06 PM
If Germany/Korea or anybody else wish to remember their war dead in the manner that we do I would applaud it,nobody is celebrating winning wars with this,just remembering the people who died so the living can enjoy the freedoms that they fought and died for!
I am not sure which "freedoms" that the Germans currently enjoy the soldiers of the Wehrmacht fought for.
We fought more wars "with" the Germans than against them
Lets face it, politicians make the decision to go to war and in a lot of cases whilst the general population may not really back it (our current combat roles in Afghanistan and Iraq come to mind) they will still back their troops.
The poppy is not a symbol of justifying or glorifying war.
It is to remember those who have died in service.
Quote from: Rambling_Syd_Rumpo on November 09, 2011, 09:21:01 PM
Quote from: Pata on November 09, 2011, 09:10:07 PM
I am not sure which "freedoms" that the Germans currently enjoy the soldiers of the Wehrmacht fought for.
We fought more wars "with" the Germans than against them
Well, the Jews around the world will be made up with that. As will the Russians. But, hey, who cares about what they have to say?
It is a good thing that FIFA have allowed this compromise because if we want to have some way to remember those brave men or women who lost their lives defending our country we should. If the rugby teams can have a poppy embroidered on to their shirts, why can't football?
Quote from: Pata on November 09, 2011, 09:33:15 PM
Quote from: Rambling_Syd_Rumpo on November 09, 2011, 09:21:01 PM
Quote from: Pata on November 09, 2011, 09:10:07 PM
I am not sure which "freedoms" that the Germans currently enjoy the soldiers of the Wehrmacht fought for.
We fought more wars "with" the Germans than against them
Well, the Jews around the world will be made up with that. As will the Russians. But, hey, who cares about what they have to say?
I'm sorry,you must have us confused with the Offal,I mentioned Germany/Korea because the post I was directing my answer to did.I also said"ANYBODY ELSE" which means anybody else as in other countries.
As for your little quip "Well, the Jews around the world will be made up with that" would you like me to ring my Uncle up and ask him? he lost three quarters of his family in Treblinka in 1943,or my Auntie who escaped from Majdanek? so I wouldn't try that dig at me if I were you.
(http://content9.flixster.com/photo/11/86/56/11865667_gal.jpg)
I can hear Mr El Bee and the Mods getting the keys ready!
Two years ago we played Brazil in Doha around Armistice Day. Didn't see the FA or anyone kicking up a fuss then as there were no poppies to be seen.
Quote from: Rambling_Syd_Rumpo on November 09, 2011, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Pata on November 09, 2011, 09:33:15 PM
Quote from: Rambling_Syd_Rumpo on November 09, 2011, 09:21:01 PM
Quote from: Pata on November 09, 2011, 09:10:07 PM
I am not sure which "freedoms" that the Germans currently enjoy the soldiers of the Wehrmacht fought for.
We fought more wars "with" the Germans than against them
Well, the Jews around the world will be made up with that. As will the Russians. But, hey, who cares about what they have to say?
I'm sorry,you must have us confused with the Offal,I mentioned Germany/Korea because the post I was directing my answer to did.I also said"ANYBODY ELSE" which means anybody else as in other countries.
As for your little quip "Well, the Jews around the world will be made up with that" would you like me to ring my Uncle up and ask him? he lost three quarters of his family in Treblinka in 1943,or my Auntie who escaped from Majdanek? so I wouldn't try that dig at me if I were you.
You could, if you wished. I certainly don't have to ring any of the Jews (or Russians) in my family to know the answer.
I agree that all nations should remember their dead but not at at football game, What if Germans wanted to remember their dead in a game against Israel or even England or Russia or France how would that go down with you. Those who support wearing puppy are only supporting it because it is about UK which i understand because Fulham is from England so you will have a biased opinions on this. But if Germans tried to do this before everyone would say how can they do it, remember german soldiers had no choice either they had to go to war. I admit UK and USA fought is some just wars ww1, ww2, and Afghanistan now. But there were also unjust wars like British colonization of Africa, India and so on. So my point is why have all this in football. It is a sport where politics and anything to do with any wars shouldn't be talked about. I would honor my nations dead soldiers in church, mosque and other places of worship or on a some kind a gathering of people where speeches are given and so on, but not at a football game. how will FIFA decide which country can and which country can't honor their dead at a football game and against which national team there.
Quote from: MrFantastic on November 10, 2011, 04:32:56 AM
I agree that all nations should remember their dead but not at at football game, What if Germans wanted to remember their dead in a game against Israel or even England or Russia or France how would that go down with you. Those who support wearing puppy are only supporting it because it is about UK which i understand because Fulham is from England so you will have a biased opinions on this. But if Germans tried to do this before everyone would say how can they do it, remember german soldiers had no choice either they had to go to war. I admit UK and USA fought is some just wars ww1, ww2, and Afghanistan now. But there were also unjust wars like British colonization of Africa, India and so on. So my point is why have all this in football. It is a sport where politics and anything to do with any wars shouldn't be talked about. I would honor my nations dead soldiers in church, mosque and other places of worship or on a some kind a gathering of people where speeches are given and so on, but not at a football game. how will FIFA decide which country can and which country can't honor their dead at a football game and against which national team there.
It's funny, but I recall you getting very upset on a previous thread when almost everyone disagreed with you, yet all I ever seem to see you do on here is post arguements, often the same arguement slightly re-worded, as if repeating it will make it more valid. Serious question, are you a genuine poster or a wind-up merchant? Actually, scrub that, as I wouldn't get a serious answer if you were the latter, would I?
So, one last time, for your benefit, if anyone wants to remember their war dead, then good luck to them. Does it matter who they are playing?
In fact, if Germany were to play Russia and remember their war dead at that match, surely that would be a massive statement on the joys of Germany v Russia being a football match, not a war.
Or France v Russia, June 2012, much better then the previous match in 1812, yes? A million fewer dead, for starters.
As for politics and football, as soon as the first international was played they became intertwined, sometimes for the good of the game, sometimes not.
Your grasp of history as demonstrated on here is pretty appalling, look up the British colonisation of India, why it happened and how Britain turned a few trading posts into an imperial jewel almost by accident. See who the aggressor was in those wars. A clue here, it was often not the British (hint, this means that some wars were British ideas, many others were not, Tippoo Sultan is a good starting point for your research).
This is not about justifying a war, or a political cause, and those who see it as that are dishonouring the dead far more than FIFA. Whether a man chooses to go to war (and, as someone who narrowly avoided going to the Gulf in 1991, I can assure you that none of us in my unit joined up to fight a war) or is conscripted, his death is a disaster for his loved ones, regardless of the cause that he fights for and regardless of how great or limited his commitment is to that cause.
Y
Quote from: MrFantastic on November 10, 2011, 04:32:56 AM
I agree that all nations should remember their dead but not at at football game, What if Germans wanted to remember their dead in a game against Israel or even England or Russia or France how would that go down with you. Those who support wearing puppy are only supporting it because it is about UK which i understand because Fulham is from England so you will have a biased opinions on this. But if Germans tried to do this before everyone would say how can they do it, remember german soldiers had no choice either they had to go to war. I admit UK and USA fought is some just wars ww1, ww2, and Afghanistan now. But there were also unjust wars like British colonization of Africa, India and so on. So my point is why have all this in football. It is a sport where politics and anything to do with any wars shouldn't be talked about. I would honor my nations dead soldiers in church, mosque and other places of worship or on a some kind a gathering of people where speeches are given and so on, but not at a football game. how will FIFA decide which country can and which country can't honor their dead at a football game and against which national team there.
You KEEP missing the point which is that this has nothing to do with FIFA and they should not interfere. That body bans the use of anything religious, commercial or political on shirts. A poppy emblem is NONE of those.
Quote from: luckykat on November 10, 2011, 08:05:35 AM
YQuote from: MrFantastic on November 10, 2011, 04:32:56 AM
I agree that all nations should remember their dead but not at at football game, What if Germans wanted to remember their dead in a game against Israel or even England or Russia or France how would that go down with you. Those who support wearing puppy are only supporting it because it is about UK which i understand because Fulham is from England so you will have a biased opinions on this. But if Germans tried to do this before everyone would say how can they do it, remember german soldiers had no choice either they had to go to war. I admit UK and USA fought is some just wars ww1, ww2, and Afghanistan now. But there were also unjust wars like British colonization of Africa, India and so on. So my point is why have all this in football. It is a sport where politics and anything to do with any wars shouldn't be talked about. I would honor my nations dead soldiers in church, mosque and other places of worship or on a some kind a gathering of people where speeches are given and so on, but not at a football game. how will FIFA decide which country can and which country can't honor their dead at a football game and against which national team there.
You KEEP missing the point which is that this has nothing to do with FIFA and they should not interfere. That body bans the use of anything religious, commercial or political on shirts. A poppy emblem is NONE of those.
But it sets a precedent, which FIFA are wisely trying to avoid.
(and try telling
the National Front-oops the English Defence League that it isn't political.)
There is a book, Der Kleine Frieden im Grossen Krieg, or The Small Peace in the Big War
....... the German and British soldiers played football with each other in no man's land on Christmas Day 1914 didn't always have a ball. Instead, they improvised. On certain sections of the front, soldiers kicked around a lump of straw tied together with string, or even an empty jam box...
But they played football
It is appropriate that football should remember and The Poppy Appeal has been around since 1921
Imperial W said : '''But it sets a precedent, which FIFA are wisely trying to avoid''.
KCat says : The president was set back in 1914 without FIFA, now they are meddling and not wise at all.
Remember least we forget !
It is a good point though. Why are we making such a big thing about Poppy Day etc this year? It dawned on me that we are being told when to mourn and remember instead of always having a thought for those we remember who fell or are injured in conflict. It is a generational thing. We used to have progs all year around about the wars and were always reminded of those that are still with us or fell in wars. Now it has become an after thought as the generation who were in the last war are slowly popping off. I only have one Uncle left alive who was in the last war (Dunkirk) and he never talks or wants to talk about it. That doesn't mean we should start relegating remembrance to just the two weeks it now seems to be.
A bunch of millionaires wearing poppys may have reminded us that we should never forget and keep on reminding ourselves that too many people are stained by conflicts. If only to remind the fools that push us into pointless wars that we will never forget.
Quote from: Rupert on November 10, 2011, 07:49:35 AM
In fact, if Germany were to play Russia and remember their war dead at that match, surely that would be a massive statement on the joys of Germany v Russia being a football match, not a war.
Or France v Russia, June 2012, much better then the previous match in 1812, yes? A million fewer dead, for starters.
As for politics and football, as soon as the first international was played they became intertwined, sometimes for the good of the game, sometimes not.
If it is a joyous football match and not a war, why mention war at all? Germany can remember its war dead in many ways other than at a football match with Russia. Doing it at a Russia-Germany football match would, in my opinion, would be particularly inappropriate - it would also a lot of people and give all the loonies on both sides the perfect excuse kick off/push their crazy little agendas.
Whether Mr Fantastic's grasp of history is accurate or not he does have a point. One country remembering it's dead may inflame another. So it does become political or could be used as such as ImperialWhite points out.
The thing I find distasteful is the FA new about this rule ages ago and have done nothing until the last minute. Could it have anything to do with the fact that it runs a pretty shoddy ship and is trying to garner some favorable publicity.
For me a minutes silence to remember those lost at war and a Poppy worn on their tracksuits would have been a sign of respect. This whole episode shows a truly astounding lack of respect for those who gave their lives (and still do) so we can continue to lead ours safely.
But International football is nothing more than a flag waving, privates waving excercise anyway. Nowadays we really don't need International football at all.
I know that there has been concessions but is it any wonder that we Brits get upset at these rulings? To those of you who condone FIFA's original ban, just remember that if we had not taken up arms, we and I mean all of us, would be very different people now and dare I say, not enjoy the freedoms that we now enjoy, including being able to cricise us (The Brits)for being wicked imperialists, who dared to give to the world, it sports, its democracy and an arguably fair legal system. So Mr Fantastic, go ahead critise us and enjoy the fact that you can do so but as you do, kindly remember the good things we have done as well.
Quote from: Peabody on November 10, 2011, 10:50:08 AM
I know that there has been concessions but is it any wonder that we Brits get upset at these rulings? To those of you who condone FIFA's original ban, just remember that if we had not taken up arms, we and I mean all of us, would be very different people now and dare I say, not enjoy the freedoms that we now enjoy, including being able to cricise us (The Brits)for being wicked imperialists, who dared to give to the world, it sports, its democracy and an arguably fair legal system. So Mr Fantastic, go ahead critise us and enjoy the fact that you can do so but as you do, kindly remember the good things we have done as well.
In that case can we all stop moaning about how Russia has the 2018 World Cup as we actually owe it to them.
Britain didn't win the war on it's own.
I'd also like to take time to thank all the Christians for their valiant efforts during the Crusades.
You know what they say about sarcasm Mr Moon? Whilst we are on about it. The problem with the freedoms that these lads and lasses who we are honouring is that their sacrifices have allowed disrespect to become the norm.
Quote from: Peabody on November 10, 2011, 12:40:09 PM
You know what they say about sarcasm Mr Moon? Whilst we are on about it. The problem with the freedoms that these lads and lasses who we are honouring is that their sacrifices have allowed disrespect to become the norm.
Oh yeah, having luckily lived through the war, I do know that we did'nt win it on our own but and even you must accept this, we were on our own at first.
You're confusing disrespect with disagreement of guilt tripping.
Also for what it's worth, by living through the war surely your perceptions of what happened are skewed by emotions, propaganda and coverage compared to someone who decades on has studied it without the hindrances listed? This doesn't necessarily just apply to the war, same goes for any moment in history.
Yeah, I disagree with you but guilt trip...I certainley do not feel guilty, do you?
Your second points yes obviously we look at it differently and yes I do have a certain amount of emotion attached to my feelings but I prefer that to the cold at a distance assessment.
Finally, are you really saying that being there is a hinderance, because if you are, well I had no choice but to be there and by being there, my view is that war is horrible and I say that without being influenced by propagander, whatever that means. But then, you speak with the advantage of someone who was'nt there.
I'm sure there is a better word to use than guilt trip but no. If people want to criticise then fine, but they shouldn't be reminded that they can only do so because of events 70 years ago. Thankfully the Nazi's didn't take control yet there is no indication that we'd 'all be speaking German now' or however the tripe goes. Look at the disintegration of the USSR, the Ukrainians can slag off their legal system all they want. What's to say that the Americans wouldn't have truly save the day but then make us into burger munching fatties. No one knows.
I know you had no choice, your point just came across that it was superior (if i can call it that) because you lived through it. I also agree that war is horrible, hence why I hold very different views to more 'modern' wars and the 'heroes' that fight in it. But that's another topic and another can of worms.
Anyone who has been though a war can feel superior when speaking about it than some numpty who has just read and picked up bits of to suit his political persuasion.
Good way to talk about the national curriculum.
Quote from: epsomraver on November 10, 2011, 01:49:12 PM
Anyone who has been though a war can feel superior when speaking about it than some numpty who has just read and picked up bits of to suit his political persuasion.
On the experience of war I'm sure you're right but for me the reasons for war are more important because I would imagine that we would all agree that avoiding war is better than fighting it.
I do of course know that the word "appeasement" can then be thrown up but I fail to accept that there have been any good reasons for recent overseas adventures. In any event we're all entitled to opinions on those regardless of personal experience without being accused of disrespecting war victims of previous generations.
One difference of modern times of course is that soldiers of the world wars were conscripts whereas today's are volunteers. Most people in this country of my age or younger won't have military experience unless we chose it.
Mr Moon, you mentioned the word propaganda. Whose to say that what you have been studying is not propaganda from a different slant. You and I will never agree on this, I feel that anyone who serves thier country and have suffered in doing so, deserve evry bit of respect that I can give.
Quote from: Peabody on November 10, 2011, 02:00:07 PM
Mr Moon, you mentioned the word propaganda. Whose to say that what you have been studying is not propaganda from a different slant. You and I will never agree on this, I feel that anyone who serves thier country and have suffered in doing so, deserve evry bit of respect that I can give.
:clap_hands: One of the few points Mr Peabody and I are in full agreement on.
Quote from: Peabody on November 10, 2011, 02:00:07 PM
Mr Moon, you mentioned the word propaganda. Whose to say that what you have been studying is not propaganda from a different slant. You and I will never agree on this, I feel that anyone who serves thier country and have suffered in doing so, deserve evry bit of respect that I can give.
That crossed my mind too so i agree, it's a flaw in my argument.
Anyway, the postman has just been and my new xbox game has arrived. Woohoo
Surely we agree on all, sorry, most things Fulham Finn?
Earlier this year I was in Wootton Bassett when a dead soldier's coffin was driven down the main street. For those outside the UK, military who died in Iraq or Afghanistan are flown back to the UK near the small town of Wootton Bassett and the hearses drive through the town. Each time this happens the locals line the streets in their hundreds to pay their respect. My daughter was on leave and someone she knew had died in Afghanistan, so I accompanied her. It was the most moving experience I have ever known and, although I did not know the soldier, the tears flowed. If you told these people lining the streets that their respect could be construed as a political act, they would think you were crazy. It's nothing to do with whether you agree with a particular war or not (personally I think Blair should be tried for taking us to war based on a lie), it is respect for the dead soldier/airman/sailor. Buying a poppy is a way of showing that same respect.
Quote from: Peabody on November 10, 2011, 02:15:11 PM
Surely we agree on all, sorry, most things Fulham Finn?
Indeed we do Sir. :54:
Quote from: luckykat on November 10, 2011, 03:49:32 PM
Earlier this year I was in Wootton Bassett when a dead soldier's coffin was driven down the main street. For those outside the UK, military who died in Iraq or Afghanistan are flown back to the UK near the small town of Wootton Bassett and the hearses drive through the town. Each time this happens the locals line the streets in their hundreds to pay their respect. My daughter was on leave and someone she knew had died in Afghanistan, so I accompanied her. It was the most moving experience I have ever known and, although I did not know the soldier, the tears flowed. If you told these people lining the streets that their respect could be construed as a political act, they would think you were crazy. It's nothing to do with whether you agree with a particular war or not (personally I think Blair should be tried for taking us to war based on a lie), it is respect for the dead soldier/airman/sailor. Buying a poppy is a way of showing that same respect.
:clap_hands: :Haynes The Maestro: 065.gif
Buying a poppy is a mark of respect and remembers the fallen, also the money raised helps keep places like the star and garter home going for those who came home in pieces.
See pictures of England stars' special poppy boots
(http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/incoming/article829110.ece/ALTERNATES/gallery-large/England+players+boots)
The Nike Swoosh is supposed to represent the Greek goddess's flight – but tomorrow at Wembley it could end up grounding the Poppy Appeal.
Nike's England players, including Theo Walcott, Scott Parker and Ashley Cole, will wear special boots with the poppy symbol woven into them and will be allowed to play in them because they are not part of the England strip.
But after a week of political sensitivity over allowing players to display the poppy on their sleeves, eyebrows are sure to be raised at the commercialisation of the symbol by a high-profile brand.
Nike will make a donation to the Poppy Appeal and players will donate their boots for the British Legion to auction.
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Pictures-of-Nike-poppy-boots-to-be-worn-by-England-stars-including-Ashley-Cole-Theo-Walcott-and-Scott-Parker-article829116.html (http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Pictures-of-Nike-poppy-boots-to-be-worn-by-England-stars-including-Ashley-Cole-Theo-Walcott-and-Scott-Parker-article829116.html)
I am horrified with the TV choices around 11 am in the UK, BBC has Filthy rotten Scoundrels and Waybuloo, ITV at least has a not about covering the 2 minute silence during this morning!
Quote from: os5889 on November 11, 2011, 10:23:13 AM
I am horrified with the TV choices around 11 am in the UK, BBC has Filthy rotten Scoundrels and Waybuloo, ITV at least has a not about covering the 2 minute silence during this morning!
BBC is run by trendy lefties all living in Islington by day and tents at St Pauls by night
#eng players observe two-minute silence in centre circle of Wembley. Perimeter hoarding emblazoned with 'Wear your poppy with pride'
Front page photo of the Times today:
(http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00231/98376621_armistice7_231418i.jpg)
In Flanders Fields (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e4jqTF6aks#)
Interesting. Probably means more to older FoF members. My father was in the airforce 39-45 and stepfather spent 4 years in a German pow camp. Tough times. My stepfather would occasionally attend remembrance parades etc. Not often because he always ended in tears for his lost mates.
It is important to remember in any small way.
As far as football, England will wear the poppys but probably perform like a bunch of daffodils in the wind. (apart from BZ of course). :005:
I know my comments many you do not agree with me. I understand that Fulham is English team and poppys are a UK thing and you will defend it because it is your country and your tradition. I didn't attack anybody point of view only disagreed with it. But some people on here can't take a different opinion would it really be appropriate if Germany remembered their dead soldiers during a game against Israel I think not but if you think it is fine that ok. many of you don't see a big picture of this and what can happen when other countries try to remember their dead soldiers, it can turn into a political statement. I also ask you why is there a need to remember these people at a football game under FIFA or UEFA. England should have had a game against a team of the army mixed up with them and there they could have done what ever they wanted and all money could have gone to soldiers who need help now. I again say I understand why many feel this way is your tradition and when a guy on here tried to defend colonization of India by Britain as a good thing that said everything,India might got more advanced but all money from India went to Britain. But everybody fells their country is the best. So I apologize for my comments this site is visited mostly by English people and their point of view will prevail so for now on I will comment only on real football matter and other things that will not go into politics and so on there.
Quote from: MrFantastic on November 12, 2011, 04:56:05 AM
I know my comments many you do not agree with me. I understand that Fulham is English team and poppys are a UK thing and you will defend it because it is your country and your tradition. I didn't attack anybody point of view only disagreed with it. But some people on here can't take a different opinion would it really be appropriate if Germany remembered their dead soldiers during a game against Israel I think not but if you think it is fine that ok. many of you don't see a big picture of this and what can happen when other countries try to remember their dead soldiers, it can turn into a political statement. I also ask you why is there a need to remember these people at a football game under FIFA or UEFA. England should have had a game against a team of the army mixed up with them and there they could have done what ever they wanted and all money could have gone to soldiers who need help now. I again say I understand why many feel this way is your tradition and when a guy on here tried to defend colonization of India by Britain as a good thing that said everything,India might got more advanced but all money from India went to Britain. But everybody fells their country is the best. So I apologize for my comments this site is visited mostly by English people and their point of view will prevail so for now on I will comment only on real football matter and other things that will not go into politics and so on there.
the poppy is for ALL of the dead, not just the British, it's a mark of respect for their sacrifice not a political statement and certainly not a celebration of victory
Take a hike mate, your views are not wanted, also try punctuation, you write the same gabbled garbage all the time, get out of breath reading it, if I could be bothered that is.
Mr Fantastic, I agree you have a right to express an opinion and in this case I am sure you feel very deeply about this subject. However, your comments about British imperialism in India are a little mis guided. True, we did gain financially by our involvment on the sub-continent but did'nt other countries have designs on India, like France for instance and when it comes down to it, lots of other countries were imperialistic, like Spain, Turkey, Austria, Japan and arguably, the country with the most aggresive imperialistic ambitions was Germany and you have to admit, most countries did not welcome them with open arms. However, that is all in the past now...is'nt it?
Quote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2011, 12:08:09 PM
Take a hike mate, your views are not wanted, also try punctuation, you write the same gabbled garbage all the time, get out of breath reading it, if I could be bothered that is.
[/qQuote from: epsomraver on November 12, 2011, 12:08:09 PM
Take a hike mate, your views are not wanted, also try punctuation, you write the same gabbled garbage all the time, get out of breath reading it, if I could be bothered that is.
People who can't argue attack other people because there is nothing they can say, I do respect and I would too honor Uk soldiers if I lived there for their fighting in ww1, ww2 and Afghanistan. They did do a lot for peace in the world during those wars, but if we let England remember their dead soldiers during football games that would open doors for other countries to do the same, countries that didn't have such respectable military history, Germany comes to mind first. My point was that FIFA shouldn't be forced to decide for which country is appropriate to remember their dead and against which national team. There is plenty of other venues and way to remember these people beside football games which are governed by FIFA there. I do feel strongly about this, I think many on here misunderstood my opinion as being against UK army but that is not like that. It came to my mind that what if Serbia wanted to remember their dead soldiers in a match against Bosnia I wouldn't want that, as I am sure Serbs wouldn't want that Bosnians remember their dead soldiers in a match against Serbia and that is why I feel strongly about this.
