FIFA won'r allow Poppies on England Shirts - Merged Topics

[MrFantastic]

I agree that all nations should remember their dead but not at at football game, What if Germans wanted to remember their dead in a game against Israel or even England or Russia or France how would that go down with you. Those who support wearing puppy are only supporting it because it is about UK which i understand because Fulham is from England so you will have a biased opinions on this. But if Germans tried to do this before everyone would say how can they do it, remember german soldiers had no choice either they had to go to war. I admit UK and USA fought is some just wars ww1, ww2, and Afghanistan now. But there were also unjust wars like British colonization of Africa, India and so on. So my point is why have all this in football. It is a sport where politics and anything to do with any wars shouldn't be talked about. I would honor my nations dead soldiers in church, mosque and other places of worship or on a some kind a gathering of people where speeches are given and so on, but not at a football game. how will FIFA decide which country can and which country can't honor their dead at a football game and against which national team there.

[Rupert]

I agree that all nations should remember their dead but not at at football game, What if Germans wanted to remember their dead in a game against Israel or even England or Russia or France how would that go down with you. Those who support wearing puppy are only supporting it because it is about UK which i understand because Fulham is from England so you will have a biased opinions on this. But if Germans tried to do this before everyone would say how can they do it, remember german soldiers had no choice either they had to go to war. I admit UK and USA fought is some just wars ww1, ww2, and Afghanistan now. But there were also unjust wars like British colonization of Africa, India and so on. So my point is why have all this in football. It is a sport where politics and anything to do with any wars shouldn't be talked about. I would honor my nations dead soldiers in church, mosque and other places of worship or on a some kind a gathering of people where speeches are given and so on, but not at a football game. how will FIFA decide which country can and which country can't honor their dead at a football game and against which national team there.

It's funny, but I recall you getting very upset on a previous thread when almost everyone disagreed with you, yet all I ever seem to see you do on here is post arguements, often the same arguement slightly re-worded, as if repeating it will make it more valid. Serious question, are you a genuine poster or a wind-up merchant? Actually, scrub that, as I wouldn't get a serious answer if you were the latter, would I?

So, one last time, for your benefit, if anyone wants to remember their war dead, then good luck to them. Does it matter who they are playing?
In fact, if Germany were to play Russia and remember their war dead at that match, surely that would be a massive statement on the joys of Germany v Russia being a football match, not a war.
Or France v Russia, June 2012, much better then the previous match in 1812, yes? A million fewer dead, for starters.
As for politics and football, as soon as the first international was played they became intertwined, sometimes for the good of the game, sometimes not.

Your grasp of history as demonstrated on here is pretty appalling, look up the British colonisation of India, why it happened and how Britain turned a few trading posts into an imperial jewel almost by accident. See who the aggressor was in those wars. A clue here, it was often not the British (hint, this means that some wars were British ideas, many others were not, Tippoo Sultan is a good starting point for your research).

This is not about justifying a war, or a political cause, and those who see it as that are dishonouring the dead far more than FIFA. Whether a man chooses to go to war (and, as someone who narrowly avoided going to the Gulf in 1991, I can assure you that none of us in my unit joined up to fight a war) or is conscripted, his death is a disaster for his loved ones, regardless of the cause that he fights for and regardless of how great or limited his commitment is to that cause.

[luckykat]

Y

I agree that all nations should remember their dead but not at at football game, What if Germans wanted to remember their dead in a game against Israel or even England or Russia or France how would that go down with you. Those who support wearing puppy are only supporting it because it is about UK which i understand because Fulham is from England so you will have a biased opinions on this. But if Germans tried to do this before everyone would say how can they do it, remember german soldiers had no choice either they had to go to war. I admit UK and USA fought is some just wars ww1, ww2, and Afghanistan now. But there were also unjust wars like British colonization of Africa, India and so on. So my point is why have all this in football. It is a sport where politics and anything to do with any wars shouldn't be talked about. I would honor my nations dead soldiers in church, mosque and other places of worship or on a some kind a gathering of people where speeches are given and so on, but not at a football game. how will FIFA decide which country can and which country can't honor their dead at a football game and against which national team there.

You KEEP missing the point which is that this has nothing to do with FIFA and they should not interfere. That body bans the use of anything religious, commercial or political on shirts. A poppy emblem is NONE of those.

[ImperialWhite]

Y

I agree that all nations should remember their dead but not at at football game, What if Germans wanted to remember their dead in a game against Israel or even England or Russia or France how would that go down with you. Those who support wearing puppy are only supporting it because it is about UK which i understand because Fulham is from England so you will have a biased opinions on this. But if Germans tried to do this before everyone would say how can they do it, remember german soldiers had no choice either they had to go to war. I admit UK and USA fought is some just wars ww1, ww2, and Afghanistan now. But there were also unjust wars like British colonization of Africa, India and so on. So my point is why have all this in football. It is a sport where politics and anything to do with any wars shouldn't be talked about. I would honor my nations dead soldiers in church, mosque and other places of worship or on a some kind a gathering of people where speeches are given and so on, but not at a football game. how will FIFA decide which country can and which country can't honor their dead at a football game and against which national team there.

You KEEP missing the point which is that this has nothing to do with FIFA and they should not interfere. That body bans the use of anything religious, commercial or political on shirts. A poppy emblem is NONE of those.

But it sets a precedent, which FIFA are wisely trying to avoid.

(and try telling the National Front-oops the English Defence League that it isn't political.)

[Me-ate-Live, innit??]

There is a book, Der Kleine Frieden im Grossen Krieg, or The Small Peace in the Big War

....... the German and British soldiers  played football with each other in no man's land on Christmas Day 1914 didn't always have a ball. Instead, they improvised. On certain sections of the front, soldiers kicked around a lump of straw tied together with string, or even an empty jam box...

But they played football
It is appropriate that football should remember and The Poppy Appeal has been around since 1921

Imperial W said  :  '''But it sets a precedent, which FIFA are wisely trying to avoid''.
KCat says :   The president was set back in 1914 without FIFA, now they are meddling and  not wise at all.

Remember least we forget !

[Lighthouse]

It is a good point though. Why are we making such a big thing about Poppy Day etc this year? It dawned on me that we are being told when to mourn and remember instead of always having a thought for those we remember who fell or are injured in conflict. It is a generational thing. We used to have progs all year around about the wars and were always reminded of those that are still with us or fell in wars. Now it has become an after thought as the generation who were in the last war are slowly popping off. I only have one Uncle left alive who was in the last war (Dunkirk) and he never talks or wants to talk about it. That doesn't mean we should start relegating remembrance to just the two weeks it now seems to be.

A bunch of millionaires wearing poppys may have reminded us that we should never forget and keep on reminding ourselves that too many people are stained by conflicts. If only to remind the fools that push us into pointless wars that we will never forget.

[Pata]

In fact, if Germany were to play Russia and remember their war dead at that match, surely that would be a massive statement on the joys of Germany v Russia being a football match, not a war.
Or France v Russia, June 2012, much better then the previous match in 1812, yes? A million fewer dead, for starters.
As for politics and football, as soon as the first international was played they became intertwined, sometimes for the good of the game, sometimes not.

If it is a joyous football match and not a war, why mention war at all? Germany can remember its war dead in many ways other than at a football match with Russia. Doing it at a Russia-Germany football match would, in my opinion, would be particularly inappropriate - it would also a lot of people and give all the loonies on both sides the perfect excuse kick off/push their crazy little agendas.

[VicHalomsLovechild]

Whether Mr Fantastic's grasp of history is accurate or not he does have a point. One country remembering it's dead may inflame another. So it does become political or could be used as such as ImperialWhite points out.
The thing I find distasteful is the FA new about this rule ages ago and have done nothing until the last minute. Could it have anything to do with the fact that it runs a pretty shoddy ship and is trying to garner some favorable publicity.
For me a minutes silence to remember those lost at war and a Poppy worn on their tracksuits would have been a sign of respect. This whole episode shows a truly astounding lack of respect for those who gave their lives (and still do) so we can continue to lead ours safely.

[Lighthouse]

But International football is nothing more than a flag waving, privates waving excercise anyway. Nowadays we really don't need International football at all.

[Peabody]

I know that there has been concessions but is it any wonder that we Brits get upset at these rulings? To those of you who condone FIFA's original ban, just remember that if we had not taken up arms, we and I mean all of us, would be very different people now and dare I say, not enjoy the freedoms that we now enjoy, including being able to cricise us (The Brits)for  being wicked imperialists, who dared to give to the world, it sports, its democracy and an arguably fair legal system. So Mr Fantastic, go ahead critise us and enjoy the fact that you can do so but as you do, kindly remember the good things we have done as well.

[Mr_Moon]

I know that there has been concessions but is it any wonder that we Brits get upset at these rulings? To those of you who condone FIFA's original ban, just remember that if we had not taken up arms, we and I mean all of us, would be very different people now and dare I say, not enjoy the freedoms that we now enjoy, including being able to cricise us (The Brits)for  being wicked imperialists, who dared to give to the world, it sports, its democracy and an arguably fair legal system. So Mr Fantastic, go ahead critise us and enjoy the fact that you can do so but as you do, kindly remember the good things we have done as well.

In that case can we all stop moaning about how Russia has the 2018 World Cup as we actually owe it to them.

Britain didn't win the war on it's own.


I'd also like to take time to thank all the Christians for their valiant efforts during the Crusades.

[Peabody]

You know what they say about sarcasm Mr Moon? Whilst we are on about it. The problem with the freedoms that these lads and lasses who we are honouring is that their sacrifices have allowed disrespect to become the norm.

[Peabody]

You know what they say about sarcasm Mr Moon? Whilst we are on about it. The problem with the freedoms that these lads and lasses who we are honouring is that their sacrifices have allowed disrespect to become the norm.

Oh yeah, having luckily lived through the war, I do know that we did'nt win it on our own but and even you must accept this, we were on our own at first.

[Mr_Moon]

You're confusing disrespect with disagreement of guilt tripping.

Also for what it's worth, by living through the war surely your perceptions of what happened are skewed by emotions, propaganda and coverage compared to someone who decades on has studied it without the hindrances listed? This doesn't necessarily just apply to the war, same goes for any moment in history.

[Peabody]

Yeah, I disagree with you but guilt trip...I certainley do not feel guilty, do you?

Your second points yes obviously we look at it differently and yes I do have a certain amount of emotion attached to my feelings but I prefer that to the cold at a distance assessment.

Finally, are you really saying that being there is a hinderance, because if you are, well I had no choice but to be there and by being there, my view is that war is horrible and I say that without being influenced by propagander, whatever that means. But then, you speak with the advantage of someone who was'nt there.

[Mr_Moon]

I'm sure there is a better word to use than guilt trip but no. If people want to criticise then fine, but they shouldn't be reminded that they can only do so because of events 70 years ago. Thankfully the Nazi's didn't take control yet there is no indication that we'd 'all be speaking German now' or however the tripe goes. Look at the disintegration of the USSR, the Ukrainians can slag off their legal system all they want. What's to say that the Americans wouldn't have truly save the day but then make us into burger munching fatties. No one knows.

I know you had no choice, your point just came across that it was superior (if i can call it that) because you lived through it. I also agree that war is horrible, hence why I hold very different views to more 'modern' wars and the 'heroes' that fight in it. But that's another topic and another can of worms.

[epsomraver]

Anyone who has been though a war can feel superior when speaking about  it than some numpty who has just read and picked up bits of to suit his political persuasion.

[Mr_Moon]

Good way to talk about the national curriculum.

[TonyGilroy]

Anyone who has been though a war can feel superior when speaking about  it than some numpty who has just read and picked up bits of to suit his political persuasion.

On the experience of war I'm sure you're right but for me the reasons for war are more important because I would imagine that we would all agree that avoiding war is better than fighting it.

I do of course know that the word "appeasement" can then be thrown up but I fail to accept that there have been any good reasons for recent overseas adventures. In any event we're all entitled to opinions on those regardless of personal experience without being accused of disrespecting war victims of previous generations.

One difference of modern times of course is that soldiers of the world wars were conscripts whereas today's are volunteers. Most people in this country of my age or younger won't have military experience unless we chose it.

[Peabody]

Mr Moon, you mentioned the word propaganda. Whose to say that what you have been studying is not propaganda from a different slant. You and I will never agree on this, I feel that anyone who serves thier country and have suffered in doing so, deserve evry bit of respect that I can give.