Why? If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season? All of this "with this squad we should walk the league" is massively arrogant, and it does a disservice to all of the top teams in this division who train hard, have loyal fans, and dream of Premier League futures. Honestly, the amount of ricochet emotions on this board (and I'm absolutely guilty of this myself) is astonishing. Yes, we're Fulham, and we are mad in love with our club and for many of us it's our escape... but are we truly (historically speaking) one of the top 20 teams in England? I think our squad as more to answer for than Parker, a young aspiring manager who is in his first real season as a manager and has Fulham in 4th, looking favorites to stay at least in the playoffs. Are his tactics great - not always. Are his team selections spot on - not always. Does he care, try, and bleed for us - yes I do believe so. He played for us, he captained our squad through some difficult, DIFFICULT seasons in our recent history, and then served alongside Joka's tutelage and is now taking his shot at the big time.
Give the man a break. I've been an emotional wreck this season too, far from my normal stoic ideals, and I'll be the first to admit that I've been unfairly harsh on Scott, but I've also never said (to my memory) that he should be sacked. He's one of our own, like it or not, and he's forever a member of the Fulham family.
The reason I write this is because of a post another FoF regular wrote a few days ago about "why are we always bickering and moaning and not just supporting our lads (gaffer included) through thick and thin?" (Paraphrased), and he was right. We ARE FULHAM. If we don't have each other's, the teams, and gaffers back, we're no better than plastic Chelsea scum.
COME ON THE FULHAM UNTIL THE DAY I DIE.
Rant complete.
- Mike
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season?
No.
And we are 5th now.
Quote from: Statto on July 01, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season?
No.
And we are 5th now.
Well crap. That changes everything right? 🤭🤣😂
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
Its Parker job to put these players in the best preparation to score, whatever preparation he has prepared for them Mitro, Kamara and Cairney are scoring similar to before; but Knockaert, Stefjo, Reid and Cav are scoring a lot less than normal, so my conclusion is the preparation is not working.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
Its Parker job to put these players in the best preparation to score, whatever preparation he has prepared for them Mitro, Kamara and Cairney are scoring similar to before; but Knockaert, Stefjo, Reid and Cav are scoring a lot less than normal, so my conclusion is the preparation is not working.
I think what most want is for Parker to change how these players are utilized, and if they aren't utilized the way it's being requested, it's time for a change in management. I get that, and I'd personally change where Cav and BDR play, but I'm not privvy to the locker room or training ground. As a result, when they're in front of goal, having their shot - missing wildly, or not, I can't blame Parker for that.
Knock, Cav and Reid (StefJo has low minutes compared to those three) have hit a drought. Cav was scoring goals with the same strategy, and tied in assists. Mitro takes the most shots (just under 4), while those three are just under 2 shots a game. If Mitro needs about 4 shots a game, then these three need at least 6.
We've also changed our play style recently. The perceived slow, boring, passing is hardly there anymore. If anything we are playing at higher pace, more long balls into space as well. The missing piece is capitalizing on counter-attacks, and perhaps more of those three players making better runs into the box off the ball. I counted 2x each that they could've been more aggressive with their runs into the box vs QPR. On the other hand though I've seen them make great runs, and the final ball just lacked a little bit.
So I'm not sure if that's preparation or not. It goes back to how we're judging our players. Are we judging them purely on their involvement in goals scored and conceded - or are we truly watching the players in question on and off the ball? Like a coach would?
Good topic,
And I get the essence of it, which I agree with. Lets get behind the boys for the rest of the season including Parker. I feel a decision should be made about Parker one way or the other at the end of the season.
No I haven't always enjoyed Parkerball and the inconsistency of the team has driven me mad at times, but this is also down to the players. My expectation was always top 6 this season and not a given for the automatics as that is just the icing on the cake imo.
Either way I am behind the team and lets see what happens in the Play Off's.
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 06:00:32 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
Its Parker job to put these players in the best preparation to score, whatever preparation he has prepared for them Mitro, Kamara and Cairney are scoring similar to before; but Knockaert, Stefjo, Reid and Cav are scoring a lot less than normal, so my conclusion is the preparation is not working.
I think what most want is for Parker to change how these players are utilized, and if they aren't utilized the way it's being requested, it's time for a change in management. I get that, and I'd personally change where Cav and BDR play, but I'm not privvy to the locker room or training ground. As a result, when they're in front of goal, having their shot - missing wildly, or not, I can't blame Parker for that.
Knock, Cav and Reid (StefJo has low minutes compared to those three) have hit a drought. Cav was scoring goals with the same strategy, and tied in assists. Mitro takes the most shots (just under 4), while those three are just under 2 shots a game. If Mitro needs about 4 shots a game, then these three need at least 6.
We've also changed our play style recently. The perceived slow, boring, passing is hardly there anymore. If anything we are playing at higher pace, more long balls into space as well. The missing piece is capitalizing on counter-attacks, and perhaps more of those three players making better runs into the box off the ball. I counted 2x each that they could've been more aggressive with their runs into the box vs QPR. On the other hand though I've seen them make great runs, and the final ball just lacked a little bit.
So I'm not sure if that's preparation or not. It goes back to how we're judging our players. Are we judging them purely on their involvement in goals scored and conceded - or are we truly watching the players in question on and off the ball? Like a coach would?
Personally I think it comes down to the fact that people don't like Parker so they will blame him for everything that goes wrong or doesn't work, and when we get a win, of course it's nothing to do with him, if a players bootlace comes undone it's obviously Parker's fault for not doing them up.
Whether in the long run he is right for Fulham, I don't know, but the amount of abuse the guy gets sometimes is way over the top.
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
Why? If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season? All of this "with this squad we should walk the league" is massively arrogant, and it does a disservice to all of the top teams in this division who train hard, have loyal fans, and dream of Premier League futures. Honestly, the amount of ricochet emotions on this board (and I'm absolutely guilty of this myself) is astonishing. Yes, we're Fulham, and we are mad in love with our club and for many of us it's our escape... but are we truly (historically speaking) one of the top 20 teams in England? I think our squad as more to answer for than Parker, a young aspiring manager who is in his first real season as a manager and has Fulham in 4th, looking favorites to stay at least in the playoffs. Are his tactics great - not always. Are his team selections spot on - not always. Does he care, try, and bleed for us - yes I do believe so. He played for us, he captained our squad through some difficult, DIFFICULT seasons in our recent history, and then served alongside Joka's tutelage and is now taking his shot at the big time.
Give the man a break. I've been an emotional wreck this season too, far from my normal stoic ideals, and I'll be the first to admit that I've been unfairly harsh on Scott, but I've also never said (to my memory) that he should be sacked. He's one of our own, like it or not, and he's forever a member of the Fulham family.
The reason I write this is because of a post another FoF regular wrote a few days ago about "why are we always bickering and moaning and not just supporting our lads (gaffer included) through thick and thin?" (Paraphrased), and he was right. We ARE FULHAM. If we don't have each other's, the teams, and gaffers back, we're no better than plastic Chelsea scum.
COME ON THE FULHAM UNTIL THE DAY I DIE.
Rant complete.
- Mike
That was a entertaining post. Yes we would like to 'give Parker a break'.
Quote from: alfie on July 02, 2020, 09:10:09 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 06:00:32 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
Its Parker job to put these players in the best preparation to score, whatever preparation he has prepared for them Mitro, Kamara and Cairney are scoring similar to before; but Knockaert, Stefjo, Reid and Cav are scoring a lot less than normal, so my conclusion is the preparation is not working.
I think what most want is for Parker to change how these players are utilized, and if they aren't utilized the way it's being requested, it's time for a change in management. I get that, and I'd personally change where Cav and BDR play, but I'm not privvy to the locker room or training ground. As a result, when they're in front of goal, having their shot - missing wildly, or not, I can't blame Parker for that.
Knock, Cav and Reid (StefJo has low minutes compared to those three) have hit a drought. Cav was scoring goals with the same strategy, and tied in assists. Mitro takes the most shots (just under 4), while those three are just under 2 shots a game. If Mitro needs about 4 shots a game, then these three need at least 6.
We've also changed our play style recently. The perceived slow, boring, passing is hardly there anymore. If anything we are playing at higher pace, more long balls into space as well. The missing piece is capitalizing on counter-attacks, and perhaps more of those three players making better runs into the box off the ball. I counted 2x each that they could've been more aggressive with their runs into the box vs QPR. On the other hand though I've seen them make great runs, and the final ball just lacked a little bit.
So I'm not sure if that's preparation or not. It goes back to how we're judging our players. Are we judging them purely on their involvement in goals scored and conceded - or are we truly watching the players in question on and off the ball? Like a coach would?
Personally I think it comes down to the fact that people don't like Parker so they will blame him for everything that goes wrong or doesn't work, and when we get a win, of course it's nothing to do with him, if a players bootlace comes undone it's obviously Parker's fault for not doing them up.
Whether in the long run he is right for Fulham, I don't know, but the amount of abuse the guy gets sometimes is way over the top.
No, if the 'laces come undone', then that's the Bootman's fault.
Quote from: rebel on July 02, 2020, 09:16:34 AM
Quote from: alfie on July 02, 2020, 09:10:09 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 06:00:32 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
Its Parker job to put these players in the best preparation to score, whatever preparation he has prepared for them Mitro, Kamara and Cairney are scoring similar to before; but Knockaert, Stefjo, Reid and Cav are scoring a lot less than normal, so my conclusion is the preparation is not working.
I think what most want is for Parker to change how these players are utilized, and if they aren't utilized the way it's being requested, it's time for a change in management. I get that, and I'd personally change where Cav and BDR play, but I'm not privvy to the locker room or training ground. As a result, when they're in front of goal, having their shot - missing wildly, or not, I can't blame Parker for that.
Knock, Cav and Reid (StefJo has low minutes compared to those three) have hit a drought. Cav was scoring goals with the same strategy, and tied in assists. Mitro takes the most shots (just under 4), while those three are just under 2 shots a game. If Mitro needs about 4 shots a game, then these three need at least 6.
We've also changed our play style recently. The perceived slow, boring, passing is hardly there anymore. If anything we are playing at higher pace, more long balls into space as well. The missing piece is capitalizing on counter-attacks, and perhaps more of those three players making better runs into the box off the ball. I counted 2x each that they could've been more aggressive with their runs into the box vs QPR. On the other hand though I've seen them make great runs, and the final ball just lacked a little bit.
So I'm not sure if that's preparation or not. It goes back to how we're judging our players. Are we judging them purely on their involvement in goals scored and conceded - or are we truly watching the players in question on and off the ball? Like a coach would?
Personally I think it comes down to the fact that people don't like Parker so they will blame him for everything that goes wrong or doesn't work, and when we get a win, of course it's nothing to do with him, if a players bootlace comes undone it's obviously Parker's fault for not doing them up.
Whether in the long run he is right for Fulham, I don't know, but the amount of abuse the guy gets sometimes is way over the top.
No, if the 'laces come undone', then that's the Bootman's fault.
Which obviously means Parker has not coached him in tying laces.
Quote from: rebel on July 02, 2020, 09:16:34 AM
Quote from: alfie on July 02, 2020, 09:10:09 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 06:00:32 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
Its Parker job to put these players in the best preparation to score, whatever preparation he has prepared for them Mitro, Kamara and Cairney are scoring similar to before; but Knockaert, Stefjo, Reid and Cav are scoring a lot less than normal, so my conclusion is the preparation is not working.
I think what most want is for Parker to change how these players are utilized, and if they aren't utilized the way it's being requested, it's time for a change in management. I get that, and I'd personally change where Cav and BDR play, but I'm not privvy to the locker room or training ground. As a result, when they're in front of goal, having their shot - missing wildly, or not, I can't blame Parker for that.
Knock, Cav and Reid (StefJo has low minutes compared to those three) have hit a drought. Cav was scoring goals with the same strategy, and tied in assists. Mitro takes the most shots (just under 4), while those three are just under 2 shots a game. If Mitro needs about 4 shots a game, then these three need at least 6.
We've also changed our play style recently. The perceived slow, boring, passing is hardly there anymore. If anything we are playing at higher pace, more long balls into space as well. The missing piece is capitalizing on counter-attacks, and perhaps more of those three players making better runs into the box off the ball. I counted 2x each that they could've been more aggressive with their runs into the box vs QPR. On the other hand though I've seen them make great runs, and the final ball just lacked a little bit.
So I'm not sure if that's preparation or not. It goes back to how we're judging our players. Are we judging them purely on their involvement in goals scored and conceded - or are we truly watching the players in question on and off the ball? Like a coach would?
Personally I think it comes down to the fact that people don't like Parker so they will blame him for everything that goes wrong or doesn't work, and when we get a win, of course it's nothing to do with him, if a players bootlace comes undone it's obviously Parker's fault for not doing them up.
Whether in the long run he is right for Fulham, I don't know, but the amount of abuse the guy gets sometimes is way over the top.
No, if the 'laces come undone', then that's the Bootman's fault.
[/quote)
No, someone 'in the know' would tell of Tony Khan getting conned by the boots supplier into buying poorer quality boots with rubbish laces!
Or maybe Parker decided that we needed lighter laces in the boots to help the players run faster, but these broke easily at important moments in the game.
Quote from: alfie on July 02, 2020, 09:10:09 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 06:00:32 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
Its Parker job to put these players in the best preparation to score, whatever preparation he has prepared for them Mitro, Kamara and Cairney are scoring similar to before; but Knockaert, Stefjo, Reid and Cav are scoring a lot less than normal, so my conclusion is the preparation is not working.
I think what most want is for Parker to change how these players are utilized, and if they aren't utilized the way it's being requested, it's time for a change in management. I get that, and I'd personally change where Cav and BDR play, but I'm not privvy to the locker room or training ground. As a result, when they're in front of goal, having their shot - missing wildly, or not, I can't blame Parker for that.
Knock, Cav and Reid (StefJo has low minutes compared to those three) have hit a drought. Cav was scoring goals with the same strategy, and tied in assists. Mitro takes the most shots (just under 4), while those three are just under 2 shots a game. If Mitro needs about 4 shots a game, then these three need at least 6.
We've also changed our play style recently. The perceived slow, boring, passing is hardly there anymore. If anything we are playing at higher pace, more long balls into space as well. The missing piece is capitalizing on counter-attacks, and perhaps more of those three players making better runs into the box off the ball. I counted 2x each that they could've been more aggressive with their runs into the box vs QPR. On the other hand though I've seen them make great runs, and the final ball just lacked a little bit.
So I'm not sure if that's preparation or not. It goes back to how we're judging our players. Are we judging them purely on their involvement in goals scored and conceded - or are we truly watching the players in question on and off the ball? Like a coach would?
Personally I think it comes down to the fact that people don't like Parker so they will blame him for everything that goes wrong or doesn't work, and when we get a win, of course it's nothing to do with him, if a players bootlace comes undone it's obviously Parker's fault for not doing them up.
Whether in the long run he is right for Fulham, I don't know, but the amount of abuse the guy gets sometimes is way over the top.
I don't think that people on this forum don't like Parker - I'm sure they would invite him over for dinner or have a pint with him. What they don't like is what he has done with this year's team and that's the reason he's being criticized.
Yes, we have had a few good games but in general, the football we are served every week is rather dull and boring - nothing exciting or inspiring. At the same time, we are not winning enough (meaning being in the automatic promotion places) to overlook the fact that the football is boring (I wouldn't, but let's leave this for now). As a result, Parker is criticized when the results are not good enough (by those that care about the results) and he is also criticized when the performances are dire (by those that want to see "sexy" football).
A lot has been said on here about us having the best squad in the league. I still think we do and haven't heard from anyone which team has a better one, but just for the sake of it let's say that we don't. Still, it's difficult to argue that our squad and our attacking line is not one of the best in the league. Is it such a big ask then if we want to watch Fulham to play a more attacking brand of football and create more chances? Even score more, God forbid!
I would agree that's it's the players' responsibility for not scoring more, if our system and tactics meant that we create numerous clear cut chances that the players don't or cannot take. If not, then the manager should take some blame otherwise we could all be managers at the end - we would only need to select the players at their best position and if they don't score or play well, then it's all on them.
Finally, I don't think that anyone is not behind the team. We are all Fulham fans and want the best - we will celebrate promotion if it happens, even if we like Parker and his football or not. At the same time, we cannot just close our eyes or be oblivious to how this season has been unfolding. Perhaps the expectations were too high (rightly or wrongly), but I don't think Parker's criticism is so far unjustified.
Sent from my Redmi Note 8 using Tapatalk
We shouldn't be talking about this now. We have had 9 months to get behind the manager for this season. Let's do it!
Quote from: Asotosyios on July 02, 2020, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: alfie on July 02, 2020, 09:10:09 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 06:00:32 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
Its Parker job to put these players in the best preparation to score, whatever preparation he has prepared for them Mitro, Kamara and Cairney are scoring similar to before; but Knockaert, Stefjo, Reid and Cav are scoring a lot less than normal, so my conclusion is the preparation is not working.
I think what most want is for Parker to change how these players are utilized, and if they aren't utilized the way it's being requested, it's time for a change in management. I get that, and I'd personally change where Cav and BDR play, but I'm not privvy to the locker room or training ground. As a result, when they're in front of goal, having their shot - missing wildly, or not, I can't blame Parker for that.
Knock, Cav and Reid (StefJo has low minutes compared to those three) have hit a drought. Cav was scoring goals with the same strategy, and tied in assists. Mitro takes the most shots (just under 4), while those three are just under 2 shots a game. If Mitro needs about 4 shots a game, then these three need at least 6.
We've also changed our play style recently. The perceived slow, boring, passing is hardly there anymore. If anything we are playing at higher pace, more long balls into space as well. The missing piece is capitalizing on counter-attacks, and perhaps more of those three players making better runs into the box off the ball. I counted 2x each that they could've been more aggressive with their runs into the box vs QPR. On the other hand though I've seen them make great runs, and the final ball just lacked a little bit.
So I'm not sure if that's preparation or not. It goes back to how we're judging our players. Are we judging them purely on their involvement in goals scored and conceded - or are we truly watching the players in question on and off the ball? Like a coach would?
Personally I think it comes down to the fact that people don't like Parker so they will blame him for everything that goes wrong or doesn't work, and when we get a win, of course it's nothing to do with him, if a players bootlace comes undone it's obviously Parker's fault for not doing them up.
Whether in the long run he is right for Fulham, I don't know, but the amount of abuse the guy gets sometimes is way over the top.
I don't think that people on this forum don't like Parker - I'm sure they would invite him over for dinner or have a pint with him. What they don't like is what he has done with this year's team and that's the reason he's being criticized.
Yes, we have had a few good games but in general, the football we are served every week is rather dull and boring - nothing exciting or inspiring. At the same time, we are not winning enough (meaning being in the automatic promotion places) to overlook the fact that the football is boring (I wouldn't, but let's leave this for now). As a result, Parker is criticized when the results are not good enough (by those that care about the results) and he is also criticized when the performances are dire (by those that want to see "sexy" football).
A lot has been said on here about us having the best squad in the league. I still think we do and haven't heard from anyone which team has a better one, but just for the sake of it let's say that we don't. Still, it's difficult to argue that our squad and our attacking line is not one of the best in the league. Is it such a big ask then if we want to watch Fulham to play a more attacking brand of football and create more chances? Even score more, God forbid!
I would agree that's it's the players' responsibility for not scoring more, if our system and tactics meant that we create numerous clear cut chances that the players don't or cannot take. If not, then the manager should take some blame otherwise we could all be managers at the end - we would only need to select the players at their best position and if they don't score or play well, then it's all on them.
Finally, I don't think that anyone is not behind the team. We are all Fulham fans and want the best - we will celebrate promotion if it happens, even if we like Parker and his football or not. At the same time, we cannot just close our eyes or be oblivious to how this season has been unfolding. Perhaps the expectations were too high (rightly or wrongly), but I don't think Parker's criticism is so far unjustified.
Sent from my Redmi Note 8 using Tapatalk
I never liked Roy's style of football, I thought he set his team not to lose rather than to win, but I never did and never would give him the sort of abuse Parker gets. Although to be fair the nasty abuse appear on other sites a lot more than on here.
Cairney. Mitro. and all the other promotion season players
still here seem to me to be shadows of themselves
from their time under slav.no matter whether you like
parker or not an awful lot of games are dull
Quote from: alfie on July 02, 2020, 10:33:19 AM
Quote from: Asotosyios on July 02, 2020, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: alfie on July 02, 2020, 09:10:09 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 06:00:32 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
Its Parker job to put these players in the best preparation to score, whatever preparation he has prepared for them Mitro, Kamara and Cairney are scoring similar to before; but Knockaert, Stefjo, Reid and Cav are scoring a lot less than normal, so my conclusion is the preparation is not working.
I think what most want is for Parker to change how these players are utilized, and if they aren't utilized the way it's being requested, it's time for a change in management. I get that, and I'd personally change where Cav and BDR play, but I'm not privvy to the locker room or training ground. As a result, when they're in front of goal, having their shot - missing wildly, or not, I can't blame Parker for that.
Knock, Cav and Reid (StefJo has low minutes compared to those three) have hit a drought. Cav was scoring goals with the same strategy, and tied in assists. Mitro takes the most shots (just under 4), while those three are just under 2 shots a game. If Mitro needs about 4 shots a game, then these three need at least 6.
We've also changed our play style recently. The perceived slow, boring, passing is hardly there anymore. If anything we are playing at higher pace, more long balls into space as well. The missing piece is capitalizing on counter-attacks, and perhaps more of those three players making better runs into the box off the ball. I counted 2x each that they could've been more aggressive with their runs into the box vs QPR. On the other hand though I've seen them make great runs, and the final ball just lacked a little bit.
So I'm not sure if that's preparation or not. It goes back to how we're judging our players. Are we judging them purely on their involvement in goals scored and conceded - or are we truly watching the players in question on and off the ball? Like a coach would?
Personally I think it comes down to the fact that people don't like Parker so they will blame him for everything that goes wrong or doesn't work, and when we get a win, of course it's nothing to do with him, if a players bootlace comes undone it's obviously Parker's fault for not doing them up.
Whether in the long run he is right for Fulham, I don't know, but the amount of abuse the guy gets sometimes is way over the top.
I don't think that people on this forum don't like Parker - I'm sure they would invite him over for dinner or have a pint with him. What they don't like is what he has done with this year's team and that's the reason he's being criticized.
Yes, we have had a few good games but in general, the football we are served every week is rather dull and boring - nothing exciting or inspiring. At the same time, we are not winning enough (meaning being in the automatic promotion places) to overlook the fact that the football is boring (I wouldn't, but let's leave this for now). As a result, Parker is criticized when the results are not good enough (by those that care about the results) and he is also criticized when the performances are dire (by those that want to see "sexy" football).
A lot has been said on here about us having the best squad in the league. I still think we do and haven't heard from anyone which team has a better one, but just for the sake of it let's say that we don't. Still, it's difficult to argue that our squad and our attacking line is not one of the best in the league. Is it such a big ask then if we want to watch Fulham to play a more attacking brand of football and create more chances? Even score more, God forbid!
I would agree that's it's the players' responsibility for not scoring more, if our system and tactics meant that we create numerous clear cut chances that the players don't or cannot take. If not, then the manager should take some blame otherwise we could all be managers at the end - we would only need to select the players at their best position and if they don't score or play well, then it's all on them.
Finally, I don't think that anyone is not behind the team. We are all Fulham fans and want the best - we will celebrate promotion if it happens, even if we like Parker and his football or not. At the same time, we cannot just close our eyes or be oblivious to how this season has been unfolding. Perhaps the expectations were too high (rightly or wrongly), but I don't think Parker's criticism is so far unjustified.
Sent from my Redmi Note 8 using Tapatalk
I never liked Roy's style of football, I thought he set his team not to lose rather than to win, but I never did and never would give him the sort of abuse Parker gets. Although to be fair the nasty abuse appear on other sites a lot more than on here.
I think you are right about Roy's style of football - it was all about being hard to beat.
I think the difference is that he was in the Premier League where FFC were a relatively small fish in the pond. This season, in the Championship, we probably have amongst the highest financial resources due to parachute payments. Due to that I think a lot of people had an expectancy that we would be more assertive/expansive in our style as we should have one of the stronger teams.
He shouldn't be getting abuse, but constructive criticism, I don't have a problem with.
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
So why do teams bother to change managers? Why do teams bother with Pep or Klopp when some guy who manages the local pub team would do it cheaper?
Coaches change players. For good and for bad. Systems changes players for good and for bad. There is literally hundreds of examples and lots of FUlham ones I've listed over the last few months but lets go with the most recent and glaring example. Gary Neville said this last week.
"Klopp makes £30mil players perform like £130mil players. Whereas there are some in these league who have £130mil players playing like £30mil players".
The power of coaching and managing.
If its just a case of picking them in their right position, maybe trying out a couple of positions, and the rest is down to them, we could do it. And, I don't know about you, but I'd do it for free for my beloved Fulham (just in case you're reading and want to save a few quid, Tony!).
Utter nonsense. This is all on Parker.
But Parker has a lifetime of experience in the game.
He can't be as incompetent as folk on here say.
Both Slav and Ranieri, who had won the Prem, couldn't get as good results as Parker got in the Prem with the same players - he came in and steadied the ship, and was popular with fans and players, that's why he got the job.
But this is a results driven business, and he needs to produce to keep his job, but seems to be doing all right so far, attaining a play-off place. but we shall see what happens for the rest of the season.
Look at Huddersfield, now facing relegation again, and many on here were saying their previous manager should have been given the Fulham job.
Really, there are two potential issues. You can choose your own.
1. 60-70 million pounds of attacking players (Mitro, Cav, AK, Cairney, Reid) are all out of form and not firing at the same time by coincidence. All the promotion season players that are still here are also, by coincidence, out of form. Players that come in and look good initially (Arter, Hector) unfortunately, again by coincidence, after a period of time in training/the system, also drop in form.
All of these things happening at the same time plus some bad luck and not taking chances mean we are underperforming* and playing sterile football. The blame lies with the 12-16 players and the variables and not Parker.
2. The blame lies with Parker. And he/his system might be the reason these 12-16 players are all out of form at the same time.
*with a team that cost the same as the rest of the top four combined
While I agree mangers can make a difference to teams changing managers does not always bring success
Klopp was not an immediate success at Liverpool and neither was solskjaer
Parker is a novice and is learning hi trade and has the potential to do well
He has worked under many top managers and must have learnt from them
Also why do we all think that because we go and watch football we all no more than the man who works with the team all week
Why do we all think that because we drive a cab or work on a building site we are experts on football
and because we have played football at some level it does not make us an expert
If I change a plug it does not make me an electrician
Of course we are all entitled to our opinions but I do feel lately if we loose a match it's always the managers fault and that a lot of the criticism is unfounded
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
No No and Thrice no, he has made far far bigger mistakes than that.
Quote from: colcliff on July 02, 2020, 11:15:53 AM
While I agree mangers can make a difference to teams changing managers does not always bring success
Klopp was not an immediate success at Liverpool and neither was solskjaer
Parker is a novice and is learning hi trade and has the potential to do well
He has worked under many top managers and must have learnt from them
Also why do we all think that because we go and watch football we all no more than the man who works with the team all week
Why do we all think that because we drive a cab or work on a building site we are experts on football
and because we have played football at some level it does not make us an expert
If I change a plug it does not make me an electrician
Of course we are all entitled to our opinions but I do feel lately if we loose a match it's always the managers fault and that a lot of the criticism is unfounded
The voice of reason.
Quote from: colcliff on July 02, 2020, 11:15:53 AM
While I agree mangers can make a difference to teams changing managers does not always bring success
Klopp was not an immediate success at Liverpool and neither was solskjaer
Parker is a novice and is learning hi trade and has the potential to do well
He has worked under many top managers and must have learnt from them
Also why do we all think that because we go and watch football we all no more than the man who works with the team all week
Why do we all think that because we drive a cab or work on a building site we are experts on football
and because we have played football at some level it does not make us an expert
If I change a plug it does not make me an electrician
Of course we are all entitled to our opinions but I do feel lately if we loose a match it's always the managers fault and that a lot of the criticism is unfounded
I think you have hit the nail on the head about SP being a novice learning his trade.
With the financial implications, i.e. Fulham only having two years parachute money, do we really have time to let someone learn their trade?
It's the sad state of modern football.
Quote from: ByTheRiver on July 02, 2020, 10:53:44 AM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 02, 2020, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 02:23:26 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
Mitro scores 23 goals in 36 games and we have only conceded 40 goals. Parker failed to get Knockaert, Reid, Stefjo and Cav scoring again is the reason we are 5th.
If come 5th this season, then 7th would be good result in 2020/21. After parachute payments end, 7th-12th would be a good decision.
I know Parker's learning, but as soon as he is good enough, he will be moving to Tottenham. We are helping a young manager at the expense of Fulham. TK biggest mistake is appointing Parker.
How specifically did Parker fail to get those players scoring again? He's moved them all over the pitch. What exactly would you do with them? I'm genuinely curious. Because, to me, the fault is at those players not taking advantage of their chances. At some point in time, the manager can't be blamed for that.
Bing, Bang, Boom. Spot on. Contrary to what many seem to believe, the game isn't FIFA or PES... the manager doesn't select the team and then play as them on the field as well. His team selections are generally speaking solid, but the substance within the players lets him down more than any decision he makes... some individual selections at times are questionable though, but he's the one on the training pitch each week, not you, me, or anyone else.
So why do teams bother to change managers? Why do teams bother with Pep or Klopp when some guy who manages the local pub team would do it cheaper?
Coaches change players. For good and for bad. Systems changes players for good and for bad. There is literally hundreds of examples and lots of FUlham ones I've listed over the last few months but lets go with the most recent and glaring example. Gary Neville said this last week.
"Klopp makes £30mil players perform like £130mil players. Whereas there are some in these league who have £130mil players playing like £30mil players".
The power of coaching and managing.
If its just a case of picking them in their right position, maybe trying out a couple of positions, and the rest is down to them, we could do it. And, I don't know about you, but I'd do it for free for my beloved Fulham (just in case you're reading and want to save a few quid, Tony!).
Utter nonsense. This is all on Parker.
So Bobby.D.C fluffs his shot in front of goal and somehow that's Parker's fault? Surely that's down to the player. B.D.C probably does all the time in training.
Quote from: ByTheRiver on July 02, 2020, 11:10:53 AM
Really, there are two potential issues. You can choose your own.
1. 60-70 million pounds of attacking players (Mitro, Cav, AK, Cairney, Reid) are all out of form and not firing at the same time by coincidence. All the promotion season players that are still here are also, by coincidence, out of form. Players that come in and look good initially (Arter, Hector) unfortunately, again by coincidence, after a period of time in training/the system, also drop in form.
All of these things happening at the same time plus some bad luck and not taking chances mean we are underperforming* and playing sterile football. The blame lies with the 12-16 players and the variables and not Parker.
2. The blame lies with Parker. And he/his system might be the reason these 12-16 players are all out of form at the same time. *with a team that cost the same as the rest of the top four combined
The voice of reason a good coach is one that makes every young player better faster and extends the career peak of every older player.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 02, 2020, 12:04:49 PM
Quote from: ByTheRiver on July 02, 2020, 11:10:53 AM
Really, there are two potential issues. You can choose your own.
1. 60-70 million pounds of attacking players (Mitro, Cav, AK, Cairney, Reid) are all out of form and not firing at the same time by coincidence. All the promotion season players that are still here are also, by coincidence, out of form. Players that come in and look good initially (Arter, Hector) unfortunately, again by coincidence, after a period of time in training/the system, also drop in form.
All of these things happening at the same time plus some bad luck and not taking chances mean we are underperforming* and playing sterile football. The blame lies with the 12-16 players and the variables and not Parker.
2. The blame lies with Parker. And he/his system might be the reason these 12-16 players are all out of form at the same time. *with a team that cost the same as the rest of the top four combined
The voice of reason a good coach is one that makes every young player better faster and extends the career peak of every older player.
Disagree, because the focus should not be on the individual players. A good coach is one that gets the players at hand to perform as a unit which will have the side effect of the individual players performing well. In my opinion.
Answering the question of would I have taken 4th at this point ?
Yes would have been my aswer.
But I never thought back then that despite being in a promotion scrap, in the top five and chasing automatic promotion it would be so unxciting and plain dull to watch.
That is 100% the down to the manager and his brand of football.
He is a lucky man to have an elite group of players at his disposal. Without thier quality the brand of football he promotes would have even a good championship squad in a relegation scrap.
Quote from: Penfold on July 02, 2020, 11:47:16 AM
I think you have hit the nail on the head about SP being a novice learning his trade.
With the financial implications, i.e. Fulham only having two years parachute money, do we really have time to let someone learn their trade?
I agree with this too.
The answer for me depends on how likely it is that he'll improve, and how quickly.
Some ex-players (in fact, I'd say a majority) just do not have the inherent 'nous' to ever become a good manager. With Symons, lovely bloke, but you could just see he was never in a million years going to develop into an authoritative tactical genius. With Parker, sometimes he comes across as lacking acuity IMO but I might be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he's shown an admirable ability to squeeze points out of relatively poor performances, which shows some cunning.
But overall, the football we play, and confidence with which we play, have not improved at all this season, despite him having had almost a full season on the training pitch. We look no better in those respects than we did in August. So if we don't go up this year, it's hard to see us improving and romping the league with Parker next year.
I used to take the view, and still do...
On the day it is down to the players
Over the season it is the manager
and
over a longer term it is the board (meaning whoever is actually in charge).
Now that isn't a strict analysis but remains about right.
The players are responsible for giving maximum effort and working for the team, not themselves
the manager is responsible for getting the squad to perfor at its best and that means getting team selection and tactics right for the players he has available, plus all the motivational stuff
The board/owners are responsible for giving the manager the support and toold he needs to be able to do his job properly.
Well most people know the issue with the owner and his son and depending on ones point of view what needs to be done.
I think the players try really hard and seem a very united and committed group (we met Knock in the stadium when he was injured and you couldn't imagine a more fanatical supportive person).
the manager is new to the job and I was in favour of his appointment, in the abscence of a really top class alternative, and even big names guarantee nothing. However, I do think he has been a disapointment, his tactics very questionable and his use of TC is ridiculous. Tom, arguably our best ploayer is asked to play a role where he underachieves, Slav used him very differently and he flourished. That IMO is Parker's biggest sin and we are really paying the price. Stef Jo and KMac perfomed really when given the chance and the team looked better organised and balanced when they played... they should have started against brentford. Iknow reed has been outstanding in these three games but the team would have been better with our promotion trio.
Parker has not got the tactics anywhere near right for our attacking play, Mitro is continually isolated and we do not get enough bodies into the box quickly enough/at all during paly... we seem incapable, save for once, of hotting the opposition on the break, always advancing way too slowly..... these are all the managers fault and we are where we are in the league despite parker not because of him. On the positive side, he seems to have tightened the defence, although hector has been a massive help int that respect and we do seem to be able to defend a lead in the last 10 minutes. On the other hand we are still allowing the oppositon way top many good chances that better team would be able to exploit so maybe the defence isn't as good as I hope it is.
I do not like the talk of replacing the manager and I do expect, no matter what, he will be our leader next season in whatever division. I didn't say that is what i would do, rather I think it is what will happen. Personally, at the risk of opening a can of worms, I would get slav back and run the club differently because tat would be our best chance of success, but I do not think the owners son is willing to step aside for the good of the cause because he is delusional and my latest evidence for this is his own words on the last 30 minute interview I saw. I cannot fault him for enthusiasm, but if was applying for the job without his family connection I doubt he would even get an interview, let alone the job.
Quote from: Statto on July 01, 2020, 11:54:23 PM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season?
No.
And we are 5th now.
I agree I would not have taken it. From where we were last season and the players we brought in, I think we should have reasonably expected to be in the top two, or within a point or two.
Quote from: Statto on July 02, 2020, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: Penfold on July 02, 2020, 11:47:16 AM
I think you have hit the nail on the head about SP being a novice learning his trade.
With the financial implications, i.e. Fulham only having two years parachute money, do we really have time to let someone learn their trade?
I agree with this too. The answer for me depends on how likely it is that he'll improve, and how quickly.
Some ex-players (in fact, I'd say a majority) just do not have the inherent 'nous' to ever become a good manager. With Symons, lovely bloke, but you could just see he was never in a million years going to develop into an authoritative tactical genius. With Parker, sometimes he comes across as lacking acuity IMO but I might be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he's shown an admirable ability to squeeze points out of relatively poor performances, which shows some cunning.
But overall, the football we play, and confidence with which we play, have not improved at all this season, despite him having had almost a full season on the training pitch. We look no better in those respects than we did in August. So if we don't go up this year, it's hard to see us improving and romping the league with Parker next year.
Our parachute payments will be over by the time Parker learns his trade. Once, Parker learns his trade he'll want a job in the premier league and move on to somewhere like Spurs.
Parker played football for six clubs and played his worst football for Fulham. His coaching career will be exactly the same. He'll coach six clubs with his worst coaching mistakes all made at Fulham.
Parker left his boyhood club Charlton that was coming 7th in the premier league because he wanted to play at a better club. If he performs well, he will look for a better club to coach than Fulham.
You say if Parker does well he will move on
Is that not the same as the players and anyone else if you get a chance to better yourself and earn more would not most of us do that.
And if he does improve so that other clubs want him then that would mean Fulham have improved so that's a win win situation
Young players come in and make mistakes and we say well he's still learning
Young mangers make mistakes and we say sack them
Don't forget all the best managers were young once and had to learn their trade, but that's ok as long as it's not at our club
Some manager's especially young ones can find the transition from player to manager difficult, they still think like a player and want to be a Pal rather than a tyrant and some players use this to their advantage
And it takes a while to get that happy medium between the two
I think Scott may suffers from this . He may have the players backing because he isn't one of the hard managers
Quote from: colcliff on July 02, 2020, 01:35:09 PM
You say if Parker does well he will move on. Is that not the same as the players and anyone else if you get a chance to better yourself and earn more would not most of us do that. And if he does improve so that other clubs want him then that would mean Fulham have improved so that's a win win situation. Young players come in and make mistakes and we say well he's still learning. Young mangers make mistakes and we say sack them. Don't forget all the best managers were young once and had to learn their trade, but that's ok as long as it's not at our club. Some manager's especially young ones can find the transition from player to manager difficult, they still think like a player and want to be a Pal rather than a tyrant and some players use this to their advantage. And it takes a while to get that happy medium between the two . I think Scott may suffers from this . He may have the players backing because he isn't one of the hard managers
The coaching appointment at Fulham helps Parkers' future, but how does it help our future. A team that doesn't get promoted the first season on average take nine years to get back to the premier league. Without parachute payments, we could easily take a decade to get back up. In 12 months time, we will have the same budget as QPR, Blackburn, Hull and Sheffield Wednesday.
The reason I say if Parker does well the team does well
Is that people were saying if Parker does well he will move to spurs
And on the whole managers move to better clubs because they have been successful which would mean the team has been successful , so surely that helps us
And if by some chance we should get promoted this year would the Parker out people get off his back I think not, they would find another reason
I feel that there are many who did not like Parker as a player and this has continued into his managerial appointment
Rodak. Hector. Reed. Cairney. Mitrovich.
that is a very decent spine of a team in this league.
so we at least(win , lose, or draw.) should be seeing
some exciting football.
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
Why? If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season? All of this "with this squad we should walk the league" is massively arrogant, and it does a disservice to all of the top teams in this division who train hard, have loyal fans, and dream of Premier League futures. Honestly, the amount of ricochet emotions on this board (and I'm absolutely guilty of this myself) is astonishing. Yes, we're Fulham, and we are mad in love with our club and for many of us it's our escape... but are we truly (historically speaking) one of the top 20 teams in England? I think our squad as more to answer for than Parker, a young aspiring manager who is in his first real season as a manager and has Fulham in 4th, looking favorites to stay at least in the playoffs. Are his tactics great - not always. Are his team selections spot on - not always. Does he care, try, and bleed for us - yes I do believe so. He played for us, he captained our squad through some difficult, DIFFICULT seasons in our recent history, and then served alongside Joka's tutelage and is now taking his shot at the big time.
Give the man a break. I've been an emotional wreck this season too, far from my normal stoic ideals, and I'll be the first to admit that I've been unfairly harsh on Scott, but I've also never said (to my memory) that he should be sacked. He's one of our own, like it or not, and he's forever a member of the Fulham family.
The reason I write this is because of a post another FoF regular wrote a few days ago about "why are we always bickering and moaning and not just supporting our lads (gaffer included) through thick and thin?" (Paraphrased), and he was right. We ARE FULHAM. If we don't have each other's, the teams, and gaffers back, we're no better than plastic Chelsea scum.
COME ON THE FULHAM UNTIL THE DAY I DIE.
Rant complete.
- Mike
No, I wouldn't have done.
And no, Scott Parker is not one of our own. Not even close.
Quote from: ALG01 on July 02, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
I used to take the view, and still do...
On the day it is down to the players
Over the season it is the manager
and
over a longer term it is the board (meaning whoever is actually in charge).
Now that isn't a strict analysis but remains about right.
The players are responsible for giving maximum effort and working for the team, not themselves
the manager is responsible for getting the squad to perfor at its best and that means getting team selection and tactics right for the players he has available, plus all the motivational stuff
The board/owners are responsible for giving the manager the support and toold he needs to be able to do his job properly.
Well most people know the issue with the owner and his son and depending on ones point of view what needs to be done.
I think the players try really hard and seem a very united and committed group (we met Knock in the stadium when he was injured and you couldn't imagine a more fanatical supportive person).
the manager is new to the job and I was in favour of his appointment, in the abscence of a really top class alternative, and even big names guarantee nothing. However, I do think he has been a disapointment, his tactics very questionable and his use of TC is ridiculous. Tom, arguably our best ploayer is asked to play a role where he underachieves, Slav used him very differently and he flourished. That IMO is Parker's biggest sin and we are really paying the price. Stef Jo and KMac perfomed really when given the chance and the team looked better organised and balanced when they played... they should have started against brentford. Iknow reed has been outstanding in these three games but the team would have been better with our promotion trio.
Parker has not got the tactics anywhere near right for our attacking play, Mitro is continually isolated and we do not get enough bodies into the box quickly enough/at all during paly... we seem incapable, save for once, of hotting the opposition on the break, always advancing way too slowly..... these are all the managers fault and we are where we are in the league despite parker not because of him. On the positive side, he seems to have tightened the defence, although hector has been a massive help int that respect and we do seem to be able to defend a lead in the last 10 minutes. On the other hand we are still allowing the oppositon way top many good chances that better team would be able to exploit so maybe the defence isn't as good as I hope it is.
I do not like the talk of replacing the manager and I do expect, no matter what, he will be our leader next season in whatever division. I didn't say that is what i would do, rather I think it is what will happen. Personally, at the risk of opening a can of worms, I would get slav back and run the club differently because tat would be our best chance of success, but I do not think the owners son is willing to step aside for the good of the cause because he is delusional and my latest evidence for this is his own words on the last 30 minute interview I saw. I cannot fault him for enthusiasm, but if was applying for the job without his family connection I doubt he would even get an interview, let alone the job.
This is the part that I get confused about. If Mitro manages 23 goals, how on earth can he be said to be constantly isolated? Is this another slight on Parker because his striker is scoring goals? Do we just ignore the players around him who passed and set him up for his goals? Bryan and Cav have 14 assists alone. Cairney underachieving how exactly? He's got 8 goals and 3 assists, where he finished in our promo season with 5 goals and 5 assists.
Have you seen the heatmap vs QPR? He was all over the pitch. Each attack is orchestrated through him. The 90 minutes are up on the site, and it's clear as day if you are focused on him. To contrast, I also rewatched the match and chose to focus on BDR. While he did well as a false-9, his runs off the ball hurt us a bit as he's found himself offsides are just not aggressive enough (far post, near post runs) to drag their defenders. He stands still a lot in the box expecting for a square ball.
I can't say we advanced the ball slowly that much at all. It was a higher pace than I've seen. We pressed very high and aggressively, Cav and BDR pressuring the ball carrier, while Arter cuts off the passing lane centrally and Reed man-marks Eze. Cairney free-roams ball-side so he can be there to get the possession moving.
I have to keep making this point for some reason, but there is this perception that we play the game so slowly. Earlier in the season yes we did. Remember Cardiff City? Mawson and Ream, back and forth. Completely agree there. However, Parker has changed tactics to a higher pace. Look at the last 5 matches for example. The only part I agree with is this "Parkerball" concept of passing from the back, but Parker's not the only manager in the world who does that, so...
I completley agree regarding playing StefJo and Kmac. However, I loved that trio and 100% believe if Slav had played them more often in the Prem, we'd have been safe. You can't dismiss that kind of chemistry - which is what he did. Parker has had chances to bring them back, but hasn't done so either. I wish he would, but I don't see it as likely because Reed is playing great, Arter as well and scored his first league goal, so can't stop that momentum.
Much like we want Parker to change some things, we as supporters should be open to understand when he does actually change things. That's the point of my post. Not to say you aren't, but to stay on these rigid mindsets suggests we're paying attention to the past versus what is actually happening on the pitch. The resources are there for each to see if their statements are valid or not. I've been wrong in my initial assessments and have had to go back and watch matches to validate my findings. Just the other day I wrote the focus QPR reaction article and had to redo some parts several times because I was wrong about a player and a certain tactic.
The above discussion is great, but I think we need to remember when discussing Slavisa's time in the premier league that Cairney was injured for a few games and only started in five games (Crystal Palace, Tottenham, Burnley, Huddersfield, and Liverpool). Slavisa should have played the 17/18 midfield trio against both Crystal Palace and Huddersfield, but other games it wouldn't have helped.
For those that think Slavisa is a brilliant manager and MLM is rubbish, maybe should note Slavisa started MLM in 9 of 12 EPL games. And, I wonder if they agree with his center-back pairing of Odoi and MLM in the 11th game against Huddersfield (A), with Chamber, Mawson, and Ream on the bench.
I would suggest the case for Ream and Mawson on the bench next game is as strong as ever, especially with 5 substitutes and less than ideal centre-back combination for the playoffs.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 02, 2020, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
Why? If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season? All of this "with this squad we should walk the league" is massively arrogant, and it does a disservice to all of the top teams in this division who train hard, have loyal fans, and dream of Premier League futures. Honestly, the amount of ricochet emotions on this board (and I'm absolutely guilty of this myself) is astonishing. Yes, we're Fulham, and we are mad in love with our club and for many of us it's our escape... but are we truly (historically speaking) one of the top 20 teams in England? I think our squad as more to answer for than Parker, a young aspiring manager who is in his first real season as a manager and has Fulham in 4th, looking favorites to stay at least in the playoffs. Are his tactics great - not always. Are his team selections spot on - not always. Does he care, try, and bleed for us - yes I do believe so. He played for us, he captained our squad through some difficult, DIFFICULT seasons in our recent history, and then served alongside Joka's tutelage and is now taking his shot at the big time.
Give the man a break. I've been an emotional wreck this season too, far from my normal stoic ideals, and I'll be the first to admit that I've been unfairly harsh on Scott, but I've also never said (to my memory) that he should be sacked. He's one of our own, like it or not, and he's forever a member of the Fulham family.
The reason I write this is because of a post another FoF regular wrote a few days ago about "why are we always bickering and moaning and not just supporting our lads (gaffer included) through thick and thin?" (Paraphrased), and he was right. We ARE FULHAM. If we don't have each other's, the teams, and gaffers back, we're no better than plastic Chelsea scum.
COME ON THE FULHAM UNTIL THE DAY I DIE.
Rant complete.
- Mike
No, I wouldn't have done.
And no, Scott Parker is not one of our own. Not even close.
Agreed with SP. How is one of our own?
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on July 02, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
I used to take the view, and still do...
On the day it is down to the players
Over the season it is the manager
and
over a longer term it is the board (meaning whoever is actually in charge).
Now that isn't a strict analysis but remains about right.
The players are responsible for giving maximum effort and working for the team, not themselves
the manager is responsible for getting the squad to perfor at its best and that means getting team selection and tactics right for the players he has available, plus all the motivational stuff
The board/owners are responsible for giving the manager the support and toold he needs to be able to do his job properly.
Well most people know the issue with the owner and his son and depending on ones point of view what needs to be done.
I think the players try really hard and seem a very united and committed group (we met Knock in the stadium when he was injured and you couldn't imagine a more fanatical supportive person).
the manager is new to the job and I was in favour of his appointment, in the abscence of a really top class alternative, and even big names guarantee nothing. However, I do think he has been a disapointment, his tactics very questionable and his use of TC is ridiculous. Tom, arguably our best ploayer is asked to play a role where he underachieves, Slav used him very differently and he flourished. That IMO is Parker's biggest sin and we are really paying the price. Stef Jo and KMac perfomed really when given the chance and the team looked better organised and balanced when they played... they should have started against brentford. Iknow reed has been outstanding in these three games but the team would have been better with our promotion trio.
Parker has not got the tactics anywhere near right for our attacking play, Mitro is continually isolated and we do not get enough bodies into the box quickly enough/at all during paly... we seem incapable, save for once, of hotting the opposition on the break, always advancing way too slowly..... these are all the managers fault and we are where we are in the league despite parker not because of him. On the positive side, he seems to have tightened the defence, although hector has been a massive help int that respect and we do seem to be able to defend a lead in the last 10 minutes. On the other hand we are still allowing the oppositon way top many good chances that better team would be able to exploit so maybe the defence isn't as good as I hope it is.
I do not like the talk of replacing the manager and I do expect, no matter what, he will be our leader next season in whatever division. I didn't say that is what i would do, rather I think it is what will happen. Personally, at the risk of opening a can of worms, I would get slav back and run the club differently because tat would be our best chance of success, but I do not think the owners son is willing to step aside for the good of the cause because he is delusional and my latest evidence for this is his own words on the last 30 minute interview I saw. I cannot fault him for enthusiasm, but if was applying for the job without his family connection I doubt he would even get an interview, let alone the job.
This is the part that I get confused about. If Mitro manages 23 goals, how on earth can he be said to be constantly isolated? Is this another slight on Parker because his striker is scoring goals? Do we just ignore the players around him who passed and set him up for his goals? Bryan and Cav have 14 assists alone. Cairney underachieving how exactly? He's got 8 goals and 3 assists, where he finished in our promo season with 5 goals and 5 assists.
Have you seen the heatmap vs QPR? He was all over the pitch. Each attack is orchestrated through him. The 90 minutes are up on the site, and it's clear as day if you are focused on him. To contrast, I also rewatched the match and chose to focus on BDR. While he did well as a false-9, his runs off the ball hurt us a bit as he's found himself offsides are just not aggressive enough (far post, near post runs) to drag their defenders. He stands still a lot in the box expecting for a square ball.
I can't say we advanced the ball slowly that much at all. It was a higher pace than I've seen. We pressed very high and aggressively, Cav and BDR pressuring the ball carrier, while Arter cuts off the passing lane centrally and Reed man-marks Eze. Cairney free-roams ball-side so he can be there to get the possession moving.
I have to keep making this point for some reason, but there is this perception that we play the game so slowly. Earlier in the season yes we did. Remember Cardiff City? Mawson and Ream, back and forth. Completely agree there. However, Parker has changed tactics to a higher pace. Look at the last 5 matches for example. The only part I agree with is this "Parkerball" concept of passing from the back, but Parker's not the only manager in the world who does that, so...
I completley agree regarding playing StefJo and Kmac. However, I loved that trio and 100% believe if Slav had played them more often in the Prem, we'd have been safe. You can't dismiss that kind of chemistry - which is what he did. Parker has had chances to bring them back, but hasn't done so either. I wish he would, but I don't see it as likely because Reed is playing great, Arter as well and scored his first league goal, so can't stop that momentum.
Much like we want Parker to change some things, we as supporters should be open to understand when he does actually change things. That's the point of my post. Not to say you aren't, but to stay on these rigid mindsets suggests we're paying attention to the past versus what is actually happening on the pitch. The resources are there for each to see if their statements are valid or not. I've been wrong in my initial assessments and have had to go back and watch matches to validate my findings. Just the other day I wrote the focus QPR reaction article and had to redo some parts several times because I was wrong about a player and a certain tactic.
I really enjoyed this post and agree that Parker has modified his style somewhat over the course of the season. It's questionable whether it has been any more successful but that wasn't your point. Overall a really balanced and thoughtful read.
On a slightly unrelated point there seems to be a debate on here as to whether Parker is "one of our own". Not for me, as that epithet usually relates to someone who came from our academy.
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on July 02, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
I used to take the view, and still do...
On the day it is down to the players
Over the season it is the manager
and
over a longer term it is the board (meaning whoever is actually in charge).
Now that isn't a strict analysis but remains about right.
The players are responsible for giving maximum effort and working for the team, not themselves
the manager is responsible for getting the squad to perfor at its best and that means getting team selection and tactics right for the players he has available, plus all the motivational stuff
The board/owners are responsible for giving the manager the support and toold he needs to be able to do his job properly.
Well most people know the issue with the owner and his son and depending on ones point of view what needs to be done.
I think the players try really hard and seem a very united and committed group (we met Knock in the stadium when he was injured and you couldn't imagine a more fanatical supportive person).
the manager is new to the job and I was in favour of his appointment, in the abscence of a really top class alternative, and even big names guarantee nothing. However, I do think he has been a disapointment, his tactics very questionable and his use of TC is ridiculous. Tom, arguably our best ploayer is asked to play a role where he underachieves, Slav used him very differently and he flourished. That IMO is Parker's biggest sin and we are really paying the price. Stef Jo and KMac perfomed really when given the chance and the team looked better organised and balanced when they played... they should have started against brentford. Iknow reed has been outstanding in these three games but the team would have been better with our promotion trio.
Parker has not got the tactics anywhere near right for our attacking play, Mitro is continually isolated and we do not get enough bodies into the box quickly enough/at all during paly... we seem incapable, save for once, of hotting the opposition on the break, always advancing way too slowly..... these are all the managers fault and we are where we are in the league despite parker not because of him. On the positive side, he seems to have tightened the defence, although hector has been a massive help int that respect and we do seem to be able to defend a lead in the last 10 minutes. On the other hand we are still allowing the oppositon way top many good chances that better team would be able to exploit so maybe the defence isn't as good as I hope it is.
I do not like the talk of replacing the manager and I do expect, no matter what, he will be our leader next season in whatever division. I didn't say that is what i would do, rather I think it is what will happen. Personally, at the risk of opening a can of worms, I would get slav back and run the club differently because tat would be our best chance of success, but I do not think the owners son is willing to step aside for the good of the cause because he is delusional and my latest evidence for this is his own words on the last 30 minute interview I saw. I cannot fault him for enthusiasm, but if was applying for the job without his family connection I doubt he would even get an interview, let alone the job.
This is the part that I get confused about. If Mitro manages 23 goals, how on earth can he be said to be constantly isolated? Is this another slight on Parker because his striker is scoring goals? Do we just ignore the players around him who passed and set him up for his goals? Bryan and Cav have 14 assists alone. Cairney underachieving how exactly? He's got 8 goals and 3 assists, where he finished in our promo season with 5 goals and 5 assists.
Have you seen the heatmap vs QPR? He was all over the pitch. Each attack is orchestrated through him. The 90 minutes are up on the site, and it's clear as day if you are focused on him. To contrast, I also rewatched the match and chose to focus on BDR. While he did well as a false-9, his runs off the ball hurt us a bit as he's found himself offsides are just not aggressive enough (far post, near post runs) to drag their defenders. He stands still a lot in the box expecting for a square ball.
I can't say we advanced the ball slowly that much at all. It was a higher pace than I've seen. We pressed very high and aggressively, Cav and BDR pressuring the ball carrier, while Arter cuts off the passing lane centrally and Reed man-marks Eze. Cairney free-roams ball-side so he can be there to get the possession moving.
I have to keep making this point for some reason, but there is this perception that we play the game so slowly. Earlier in the season yes we did. Remember Cardiff City? Mawson and Ream, back and forth. Completely agree there. However, Parker has changed tactics to a higher pace. Look at the last 5 matches for example. The only part I agree with is this "Parkerball" concept of passing from the back, but Parker's not the only manager in the world who does that, so...
I completley agree regarding playing StefJo and Kmac. However, I loved that trio and 100% believe if Slav had played them more often in the Prem, we'd have been safe. You can't dismiss that kind of chemistry - which is what he did. Parker has had chances to bring them back, but hasn't done so either. I wish he would, but I don't see it as likely because Reed is playing great, Arter as well and scored his first league goal, so can't stop that momentum.
Much like we want Parker to change some things, we as supporters should be open to understand when he does actually change things. That's the point of my post. Not to say you aren't, but to stay on these rigid mindsets suggests we're paying attention to the past versus what is actually happening on the pitch. The resources are there for each to see if their statements are valid or not. I've been wrong in my initial assessments and have had to go back and watch matches to validate my findings. Just the other day I wrote the focus QPR reaction article and had to redo some parts several times because I was wrong about a player and a certain tactic.
Wow! a proper and thoughtful response of a kind I hope for every time I post and I thank you for that.
Regarding Mitro. It is strange isn't it, he gets loads of goals but IMO he is isolated and we do not get enough bodies in the box. f we set up a little differently he may score a few less, but the team would get more, and that is the issue for me, how to set up the team for best effect, not how to play so that one player looks good.
The same is true of TC. He gets his share of goals and assists but does not dominate the game like he used to so the team does not play as well because he is in the wrong position to make the best use of his talents. Cav, IMO has been one of the biggest disapointments. Whatever his stats are, with his ability he should be terrorising defences and thrilling us, but that just isn't the case. he is one dimensional and most teams seem to contain him very easilly.
I didn't really say we play to slowly but I did say we do not advance quickly enough. A subtle but profound difference. When kleeds hit us on the break, they didn't stop on the half way line they kept driving forward, we do not do that. That just has to be SP influencing decision making.
What I can see is that most (all?) the goals we conceded since the break have been from inside the box and that is where most goals are scored from by getting dodies in the box. We have scored from two long range efforts and when we havegot the ball in the box there is rarely more than one player...so that is the case with Mitro he gets on something and when the scramble occurs, there is nobody in there... this is poor tactics. and that is down to SP because it is week in week out.
SP shows his inexperience far too often. He does modify things but not as radically as I would like. He clearly ahs favourites and a favoured way of playing. Cav and Knock have massively underperormed in terms of end product, we can all see that with our eyes and I think that is down to tactics. We shall see what we shall see but I hate it when SP does say before the break we were the form team. In the last 7 we hadn't played all that well, won 3, drawn 3 and lost one. It's OK but not brilliant if promotion is the goal.
Thanks for the very good post, let's see what we make of tomorrows game.
Some seem to be of the opinion that changing managers is the Holy Grail, and so Parker is not good enough and needs to go, and there is, perhaps, some justification in that pov in regards to this seasons inconsistent results.
To me though, the elephant in the room (excluding WM of course), is that there are some that also believe that those managers out there that would/could do so much with our crop of players would actually consider coming to the Cottage. As the OP correctly pointed out, this is another example of the arrogance some fans exhibit, believing we are THE club that any manager worth his/her salt would want to come to.
Yes, there are managers out there that that are more experienced than Parker, there are managers that could/would do a better job with our squad, there are managers out there that are currently not employed/willing to walk away from current commitments, and there are managers out there who would consider coming to the Cottage. But to find those that fit the bill for all those categories may prove less effective than we might first think.
I recall very similar discussions when Cookie was in charge, the same arguments, he was finally sacked, and then we got Sanchez! I only say this because, even at that time, when we were in the Prem, attracting the 'right' manager still wasn't as simple as we thought it would be.
The top of the league is very weak this year. We finished third on 88 points two seasons ago; that would almost certainly win the division this season.
So no, I would not have signed for being in 4th or 5th with almost no chance of autopromotion with six matches left. That's rank underchievement with this roster.
And I echo the thoughts of previous posters: It's not possible that every good player on the roster suddenly has gotten old and/or worse at the same time, so the common link is Parker and his system that doesn't get the best out of anyone. Our attacking heat maps are embarrassing. Nothing central. Nothing connected. Just repeatedly get the ball to an isolated inverted winger and hope they can dig out a cross to Mitro. Sometimes Bryan supports on the left ... and then people crush him for being out of position when we get countered. Knockaert has zero help on the right, which is why he's been so ineffective/wasteful. It's consistently mediocre football that occasionally gets bailed out by individual brilliance, like against QPR (with added the help of a goalkeeping error).
Agree with the OP actually. The problem is that Scott is unfairly compared to when Slav was at his best, which was about half a season, and the idea being that a new manager would be anywhere near where we were in the second half of 2017-18 is a bit ridiculous frankly, especially since I believe our squad was better then than it is now. The theory of "this squad should be top two" is not only poor since we only finished 3rd and 6th with this squad in 16-17 and 17-18, but also heaping unrealistic expectations onto Scott. Add to this the fact that people are overrating Jokanovic's time as manager head coach and you have an impossible level of expectation that some people have for Scott. It's like The Phantom Menace, it was never going to be able to live up to expectations but it's not that bad in and of itself. If (hypothetically) the last 3-4 years didn't happen and Scott's just named as Kit's successor I'm sure these conversations wouldn't be happening at all.
tl;dr - stop comparing him to Slav.
Quote from: Brawn on July 03, 2020, 01:43:13 PM
Agree with the OP actually. The problem is that Scott is unfairly compared to when Slav was at his best, which was about half a season, and the idea being that a new manager would be anywhere near where we were in the second half of 2017-18 is a bit ridiculous frankly, especially since I believe our squad was better then than it is now. The theory of "this squad should be top two" is not only poor since we only finished 3rd and 6th with this squad in 16-17 and 17-18, but also heaping unrealistic expectations onto Scott. Add to this the fact that people are overrating Jokanovic's time as manager head coach and you have an impossible level of expectation that some people have for Scott. It's like The Phantom Menace, it was never going to be able to live up to expectations but it's not that bad in and of itself. If (hypothetically) the last 3-4 years didn't happen and Scott's just named as Kit's successor I'm sure these conversations wouldn't be happening at all.
tl;dr - stop comparing him to Slav.
How can you overrate someone who literally took us half a season unbeaten, which has never been seen before? Slav got Djalo and Yohan Mollo for about £50 combined, imagine we gave him Cavaleiro and Hector, he'd have absolutely walked the league.
Parker has been given the best front 3 in the league, he has the best possession based CM in the league in TC, Reid/Reed/Arter/Onomah on top of StefoJo and Kmac who got us up last time round which means he's probably got arguably the best midfield options as well, and the defence is on a par with what Slav had as well, yet he's making us perform worse than Slav did with an inferior squad. Arguably Slav made players play beyond their ability, Parker seems to have the total opposite effect, which as a coach is a pretty solid nail in the coffin for your tactical and coaching abilities
Quote from: Brawn on July 03, 2020, 01:43:13 PM
Agree with the OP actually. The problem is that Scott is unfairly compared to when Slav was at his best, which was about half a season, and the idea being that a new manager would be anywhere near where we were in the second half of 2017-18 is a bit ridiculous frankly, especially since I believe our squad was better then than it is now. The theory of "this squad should be top two" is not only poor since we only finished 3rd and 6th with this squad in 16-17 and 17-18, but also heaping unrealistic expectations onto Scott. Add to this the fact that people are overrating Jokanovic's time as manager head coach and you have an impossible level of expectation that some people have for Scott. It's like The Phantom Menace, it was never going to be able to live up to expectations but it's not that bad in and of itself. If (hypothetically) the last 3-4 years didn't happen and Scott's just named as Kit's successor I'm sure these conversations wouldn't be happening at all.
tl;dr - stop comparing him to Slav.
Nobody is overating slav. He took a thiord rate team under Kit and transformed the style of play into an attractive attacking unit plus he generated a work ethic and unity in the squad we hadn't seen since Roy. And he fdid that with one hand tied behind his back because the squad was very lacking in depth or diversity. He took us from nowhere to the prem and did the same with watford. I would have him back in a heartbeat because he would transform the team again.
However, he isn't coming ad IMO I agree it is wrong to talk of changing scott he has done OKish but I do not think we should paper over his shortcomings. He keeps saying we were the form team just before the lockdopwn and that just was not so, we were OK for results up to a point but performances were stale and poor. I do think his tactics and team selection are costing us points and hope he learns from the many avoidable errors he has made.
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 05:22:51 PM
I have to keep making this point for some reason, but there is this perception that we play the game so slowly. Earlier in the season yes we did. Remember Cardiff City? Mawson and Ream, back and forth. Completely agree there. However, Parker has changed tactics to a higher pace.
Can you elaborate on this point.
I acknowledge we've started playing more directly out from the back. In particular, Hector and Rodak often play long balls, which I assume Parker instructed or at least doesn't object to.
However, other things such as the speed and fluidity of our passing, the speed with which we counter-attack, the players' movement when we're in possession, and of course our results, do not seem to me to have improved at all through the course of the season.
Players who are a bit one -sided but essential to the team can dominate tactics. When Ross Maccormack was playing he couldnt play the lone striker role which meant we played 2 up front and were a man short centrally against most teams . He scored a hat full of goals but restricted us tactically. With Mitro ,good though he is , we cant really press from the front ,and we are reliant on finding him so lack fluidity. Down to Parkers tactics ? in part but a huge simplification of the problem . Without Mitro we are more fluid and have a higher press,with more mobile players.
Quote from: Denver Fulham on July 03, 2020, 01:41:02 PM
The top of the league is very weak this year. We finished third on 88 points two seasons ago; that would almost certainly win the division this season.
So no, I would not have signed for being in 4th or 5th with almost no chance of autopromotion with six matches left. That's rank underchievement with this roster.
And I echo the thoughts of previous posters: It's not possible that every good player on the roster suddenly has gotten old and/or worse at the same time, so the common link is Parker and his system that doesn't get the best out of anyone. Our attacking heat maps are embarrassing. Nothing central. Nothing connected. Just repeatedly get the ball to an isolated inverted winger and hope they can dig out a cross to Mitro. Sometimes Bryan supports on the left ... and then people crush him for being out of position when we get countered. Knockaert has zero help on the right, which is why he's been so ineffective/wasteful. It's consistently mediocre football that occasionally gets bailed out by individual brilliance, like against QPR (with added the help of a goalkeeping error).
All that opening paragraph says to me is that there is a more even league overall, and that no team, or teams, are so much better than the rest.
If you were to elaborate as to the spread of points it might be a better point to make, but one thing is certain, the same amount of points are available each season, therefore the number of points accumulated by any one team is always relevant to those by other teams, and the closer the spread, the more even the teams' performances would appear to be.
Quote from: Penfold on July 03, 2020, 11:22:02 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 02, 2020, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
Why? If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season? All of this "with this squad we should walk the league" is massively arrogant, and it does a disservice to all of the top teams in this division who train hard, have loyal fans, and dream of Premier League futures. Honestly, the amount of ricochet emotions on this board (and I'm absolutely guilty of this myself) is astonishing. Yes, we're Fulham, and we are mad in love with our club and for many of us it's our escape... but are we truly (historically speaking) one of the top 20 teams in England? I think our squad as more to answer for than Parker, a young aspiring manager who is in his first real season as a manager and has Fulham in 4th, looking favorites to stay at least in the playoffs. Are his tactics great - not always. Are his team selections spot on - not always. Does he care, try, and bleed for us - yes I do believe so. He played for us, he captained our squad through some difficult, DIFFICULT seasons in our recent history, and then served alongside Joka's tutelage and is now taking his shot at the big time.
Give the man a break. I've been an emotional wreck this season too, far from my normal stoic ideals, and I'll be the first to admit that I've been unfairly harsh on Scott, but I've also never said (to my memory) that he should be sacked. He's one of our own, like it or not, and he's forever a member of the Fulham family.
The reason I write this is because of a post another FoF regular wrote a few days ago about "why are we always bickering and moaning and not just supporting our lads (gaffer included) through thick and thin?" (Paraphrased), and he was right. We ARE FULHAM. If we don't have each other's, the teams, and gaffers back, we're no better than plastic Chelsea scum.
COME ON THE FULHAM UNTIL THE DAY I DIE.
Rant complete.
- Mike
No, I wouldn't have done.
And no, Scott Parker is not one of our own. Not even close.
Agreed with SP. How is one of our own?
I consider Parker to be one of our own in the sense of his loyalty to Fulham in our tragic recent history. Many forget that he played for the Whites from 2013-2017, he was not some journeyman who joined for one final payday for a couple of seasons, and played 120 or so games for us; and now he manages us. In fact, he only played more games for Charlton Athletic (his first team) than Fuham in his career, many seem to forget the years of his life he dedicated to us. He joined us in the Premier League, he fought with us even though we were relegated, he then continued to play with us through our initial difficult years in the Championship, and retired with us. He then spent 1 year out with Tottenham for experience, came back to be our assistant manager and helped Slav get us promoted, and he has since taken over. He cares and is as loyal as they come these days. Sorry he is no Ryan Sess or Harvey Elliot or Patrick Roberts, of Hyndmann, or any of the other academy grads that "are one of our own" but quickly leave to other teams before they are 20. Sess is an anomaly in that group, but how many "of our own" will go through our academy just to leave when we need them the most in making the leap to being constant first team players? Parker has committed himself to Fulham for a good number of years, and he withstands that immense abuse from so many on here and other fans who dare tell him he's not good enough for us.
Parker had nothing to do with our promotion season, so he definitely didn't help Jokanovic at all - let's get this straight.
Re if he is one of our own - I'm not sure. I wouldn't apply the term only to our academy players, but personally never felt a particular affection towards Parker. He was a Fulham player and always supported him, but perhaps the fact he was part of a not very successful period of the club might not have warmed me towards him.
Sent from my Redmi Note 8 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Deeping_white on July 03, 2020, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: Brawn on July 03, 2020, 01:43:13 PM
Agree with the OP actually. The problem is that Scott is unfairly compared to when Slav was at his best, which was about half a season, and the idea being that a new manager would be anywhere near where we were in the second half of 2017-18 is a bit ridiculous frankly, especially since I believe our squad was better then than it is now. The theory of "this squad should be top two" is not only poor since we only finished 3rd and 6th with this squad in 16-17 and 17-18, but also heaping unrealistic expectations onto Scott. Add to this the fact that people are overrating Jokanovic's time as manager head coach and you have an impossible level of expectation that some people have for Scott. It's like The Phantom Menace, it was never going to be able to live up to expectations but it's not that bad in and of itself. If (hypothetically) the last 3-4 years didn't happen and Scott's just named as Kit's successor I'm sure these conversations wouldn't be happening at all.
tl;dr - stop comparing him to Slav.
How can you overrate someone who literally took us half a season unbeaten, which has never been seen before? Slav got Djalo and Yohan Mollo for about £50 combined, imagine we gave him Cavaleiro and Hector, he'd have absolutely walked the league.
Parker has been given the best front 3 in the league, he has the best possession based CM in the league in TC, Reid/Reed/Arter/Onomah on top of StefoJo and Kmac who got us up last time round which means he's probably got arguably the best midfield options as well, and the defence is on a par with what Slav had as well, yet he's making us perform worse than Slav did with an inferior squad. Arguably Slav made players play beyond their ability, Parker seems to have the total opposite effect, which as a coach is a pretty solid nail in the coffin for your tactical and coaching abilities
Quote from: ALG01 on July 03, 2020, 01:58:57 PM
Nobody is overating slav. He took a thiord rate team under Kit and transformed the style of play into an attractive attacking unit plus he generated a work ethic and unity in the squad we hadn't seen since Roy. And he fdid that with one hand tied behind his back because the squad was very lacking in depth or diversity. He took us from nowhere to the prem and did the same with watford. I would have him back in a heartbeat because he would transform the team again.
However, he isn't coming ad IMO I agree it is wrong to talk of changing scott he has done OKish but I do not think we should paper over his shortcomings. He keeps saying we were the form team just before the lockdopwn and that just was not so, we were OK for results up to a point but performances were stale and poor. I do think his tactics and team selection are costing us points and hope he learns from the many avoidable errors he has made.
Let's just kibosh one thing here: the team Slav inherited is nothing like the team he got for the promotion season, or indeed the season we scraped into 6th. The team that played the final game under Kit (the 5-2 loss to Brum) had just
TWO players common with the team that played the first game of Slav's first full season. He took a team Kit had in 12th place and nearly got us relegated. And yes, we weren't 12th by the time he was appointed, but he still finished lower than we were at the time of his appointment. As I have said in the past - the list of marks against Slav is actually much longer than the list against Parker.
This is the Jean Tigana treatment - because he got promoted that means that he is unimpeachable in the eyes of some. And I'm sorry, but he just isn't.
Quote from: OhConnah on July 03, 2020, 03:20:30 PM
Quote from: Penfold on July 03, 2020, 11:22:02 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 02, 2020, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
Why? If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season? All of this "with this squad we should walk the league" is massively arrogant, and it does a disservice to all of the top teams in this division who train hard, have loyal fans, and dream of Premier League futures. Honestly, the amount of ricochet emotions on this board (and I'm absolutely guilty of this myself) is astonishing. Yes, we're Fulham, and we are mad in love with our club and for many of us it's our escape... but are we truly (historically speaking) one of the top 20 teams in England? I think our squad as more to answer for than Parker, a young aspiring manager who is in his first real season as a manager and has Fulham in 4th, looking favorites to stay at least in the playoffs. Are his tactics great - not always. Are his team selections spot on - not always. Does he care, try, and bleed for us - yes I do believe so. He played for us, he captained our squad through some difficult, DIFFICULT seasons in our recent history, and then served alongside Joka's tutelage and is now taking his shot at the big time.
Give the man a break. I've been an emotional wreck this season too, far from my normal stoic ideals, and I'll be the first to admit that I've been unfairly harsh on Scott, but I've also never said (to my memory) that he should be sacked. He's one of our own, like it or not, and he's forever a member of the Fulham family.
The reason I write this is because of a post another FoF regular wrote a few days ago about "why are we always bickering and moaning and not just supporting our lads (gaffer included) through thick and thin?" (Paraphrased), and he was right. We ARE FULHAM. If we don't have each other's, the teams, and gaffers back, we're no better than plastic Chelsea scum.
COME ON THE FULHAM UNTIL THE DAY I DIE.
Rant complete.
- Mike
No, I wouldn't have done.
And no, Scott Parker is not one of our own. Not even close.
Agreed with SP. How is one of our own?
I consider Parker to be one of our own in the sense of his loyalty to Fulham in our tragic recent history. Many forget that he played for the Whites from 2013-2017, he was not some journeyman who joined for one final payday for a couple of seasons, and played 120 or so games for us; and now he manages us. In fact, he only played more games for Charlton Athletic (his first team) than Fuham in his career, many seem to forget the years of his life he dedicated to us. He joined us in the Premier League, he fought with us even though we were relegated, he then continued to play with us through our initial difficult years in the Championship, and retired with us. He then spent 1 year out with Tottenham for experience, came back to be our assistant manager and helped Slav get us promoted, and he has since taken over. He cares and is as loyal as they come these days. Sorry he is no Ryan Sess or Harvey Elliot or Patrick Roberts, of Hyndmann, or any of the other academy grads that "are one of our own" but quickly leave to other teams before they are 20. Sess is an anomaly in that group, but how many "of our own" will go through our academy just to leave when we need them the most in making the leap to being constant first team players? Parker has committed himself to Fulham for a good number of years, and he withstands that immense abuse from so many on here and other fans who dare tell him he's not good enough for us.
I think the reason he stayed with us from 2013-2017 is due to the contract he was on. He wasn't going to get that anywhere else at that stage of his career.
Quote from: Penfold on July 03, 2020, 05:05:12 PM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 03, 2020, 03:20:30 PM
Quote from: Penfold on July 03, 2020, 11:22:02 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 02, 2020, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
Why? If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season? All of this "with this squad we should walk the league" is massively arrogant, and it does a disservice to all of the top teams in this division who train hard, have loyal fans, and dream of Premier League futures. Honestly, the amount of ricochet emotions on this board (and I'm absolutely guilty of this myself) is astonishing. Yes, we're Fulham, and we are mad in love with our club and for many of us it's our escape... but are we truly (historically speaking) one of the top 20 teams in England? I think our squad as more to answer for than Parker, a young aspiring manager who is in his first real season as a manager and has Fulham in 4th, looking favorites to stay at least in the playoffs. Are his tactics great - not always. Are his team selections spot on - not always. Does he care, try, and bleed for us - yes I do believe so. He played for us, he captained our squad through some difficult, DIFFICULT seasons in our recent history, and then served alongside Joka's tutelage and is now taking his shot at the big time.
Give the man a break. I've been an emotional wreck this season too, far from my normal stoic ideals, and I'll be the first to admit that I've been unfairly harsh on Scott, but I've also never said (to my memory) that he should be sacked. He's one of our own, like it or not, and he's forever a member of the Fulham family.
The reason I write this is because of a post another FoF regular wrote a few days ago about "why are we always bickering and moaning and not just supporting our lads (gaffer included) through thick and thin?" (Paraphrased), and he was right. We ARE FULHAM. If we don't have each other's, the teams, and gaffers back, we're no better than plastic Chelsea scum.
COME ON THE FULHAM UNTIL THE DAY I DIE.
Rant complete.
- Mike
No, I wouldn't have done.
And no, Scott Parker is not one of our own. Not even close.
Agreed with SP. How is one of our own?
I consider Parker to be one of our own in the sense of his loyalty to Fulham in our tragic recent history. Many forget that he played for the Whites from 2013-2017, he was not some journeyman who joined for one final payday for a couple of seasons, and played 120 or so games for us; and now he manages us. In fact, he only played more games for Charlton Athletic (his first team) than Fuham in his career, many seem to forget the years of his life he dedicated to us. He joined us in the Premier League, he fought with us even though we were relegated, he then continued to play with us through our initial difficult years in the Championship, and retired with us. He then spent 1 year out with Tottenham for experience, came back to be our assistant manager and helped Slav get us promoted, and he has since taken over. He cares and is as loyal as they come these days. Sorry he is no Ryan Sess or Harvey Elliot or Patrick Roberts, of Hyndmann, or any of the other academy grads that "are one of our own" but quickly leave to other teams before they are 20. Sess is an anomaly in that group, but how many "of our own" will go through our academy just to leave when we need them the most in making the leap to being constant first team players? Parker has committed himself to Fulham for a good number of years, and he withstands that immense abuse from so many on here and other fans who dare tell him he's not good enough for us.
I think the reason he stayed with us from 2013-2017 is due to the contract he was on. He wasn't going to get that anywhere else at that stage of his career.
100% this, I was about to post and saw you had. From memory, we wanted to offload but no takers and Scott wanted to sit on and see out his large contract.
Also he had nothing to do with the promotion season, he wasn't assistant, he wasn't even here, he was at Spurs. So, whilst I obviously do not blame him for all of the below, the Parker timeline actually looks more like this:
Joins
Team immediately relegated after being a comfortable(ish..!) Premier League Team for 13 years
Wants to keep large contract
Flounder in championship for a couple of years
Leaves
Immediately promoted in his absence
Comes back
Immediately relegated
Takes a team that cost the same as the top three combined to fifth (currently).
One of our own? I'm not so sure...
Quote from: ByTheRiver on July 03, 2020, 05:24:44 PM
Quote from: Penfold on July 03, 2020, 05:05:12 PM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 03, 2020, 03:20:30 PM
Quote from: Penfold on July 03, 2020, 11:22:02 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 02, 2020, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: OhConnah on July 01, 2020, 11:39:26 PM
Why? If you were offered 4th with 6 games to go, you wouldn't have taken it at the beginning of the season? All of this "with this squad we should walk the league" is massively arrogant, and it does a disservice to all of the top teams in this division who train hard, have loyal fans, and dream of Premier League futures. Honestly, the amount of ricochet emotions on this board (and I'm absolutely guilty of this myself) is astonishing. Yes, we're Fulham, and we are mad in love with our club and for many of us it's our escape... but are we truly (historically speaking) one of the top 20 teams in England? I think our squad as more to answer for than Parker, a young aspiring manager who is in his first real season as a manager and has Fulham in 4th, looking favorites to stay at least in the playoffs. Are his tactics great - not always. Are his team selections spot on - not always. Does he care, try, and bleed for us - yes I do believe so. He played for us, he captained our squad through some difficult, DIFFICULT seasons in our recent history, and then served alongside Joka's tutelage and is now taking his shot at the big time.
Give the man a break. I've been an emotional wreck this season too, far from my normal stoic ideals, and I'll be the first to admit that I've been unfairly harsh on Scott, but I've also never said (to my memory) that he should be sacked. He's one of our own, like it or not, and he's forever a member of the Fulham family.
The reason I write this is because of a post another FoF regular wrote a few days ago about "why are we always bickering and moaning and not just supporting our lads (gaffer included) through thick and thin?" (Paraphrased), and he was right. We ARE FULHAM. If we don't have each other's, the teams, and gaffers back, we're no better than plastic Chelsea scum.
COME ON THE FULHAM UNTIL THE DAY I DIE.
Rant complete.
- Mike
No, I wouldn't have done.
And no, Scott Parker is not one of our own. Not even close.
Agreed with SP. How is one of our own?
I consider Parker to be one of our own in the sense of his loyalty to Fulham in our tragic recent history. Many forget that he played for the Whites from 2013-2017, he was not some journeyman who joined for one final payday for a couple of seasons, and played 120 or so games for us; and now he manages us. In fact, he only played more games for Charlton Athletic (his first team) than Fuham in his career, many seem to forget the years of his life he dedicated to us. He joined us in the Premier League, he fought with us even though we were relegated, he then continued to play with us through our initial difficult years in the Championship, and retired with us. He then spent 1 year out with Tottenham for experience, came back to be our assistant manager and helped Slav get us promoted, and he has since taken over. He cares and is as loyal as they come these days. Sorry he is no Ryan Sess or Harvey Elliot or Patrick Roberts, of Hyndmann, or any of the other academy grads that "are one of our own" but quickly leave to other teams before they are 20. Sess is an anomaly in that group, but how many "of our own" will go through our academy just to leave when we need them the most in making the leap to being constant first team players? Parker has committed himself to Fulham for a good number of years, and he withstands that immense abuse from so many on here and other fans who dare tell him he's not good enough for us.
I think the reason he stayed with us from 2013-2017 is due to the contract he was on. He wasn't going to get that anywhere else at that stage of his career.
100% this, I was about to post and saw you had. From memory, we wanted to offload but no takers and Scott wanted to sit on and see out his large contract.
Also he had nothing to do with the promotion season, he wasn't assistant, he wasn't even here, he was at Spurs. So, whilst I obviously do not blame him for all of the below, the Parker timeline actually looks more like this:
Joins
Team immediately relegated after being a comfortable(ish..!) Premier League Team for 13 years
Wants to keep large contract
Flounder in championship for a couple of years
Leaves
Immediately promoted in his absence
Comes back
Immediately relegated
Takes a team that cost the same as the top three combined to fifth (currently).
One of our own? I'm not so sure...
This does make me rethink my original position... I appreciate the candor!
Quote from: Twig on July 03, 2020, 11:59:23 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 05:22:51 PM
This is the part that I get confused about. If Mitro manages 23 goals, how on earth can he be said to be constantly isolated? Is this another slight on Parker because his striker is scoring goals? Do we just ignore the players around him who passed and set him up for his goals? Bryan and Cav have 14 assists alone. Cairney underachieving how exactly? He's got 8 goals and 3 assists, where he finished in our promo season with 5 goals and 5 assists.
Have you seen the heatmap vs QPR? He was all over the pitch. Each attack is orchestrated through him. The 90 minutes are up on the site, and it's clear as day if you are focused on him. To contrast, I also rewatched the match and chose to focus on BDR. While he did well as a false-9, his runs off the ball hurt us a bit as he's found himself offsides are just not aggressive enough (far post, near post runs) to drag their defenders. He stands still a lot in the box expecting for a square ball.
I can't say we advanced the ball slowly that much at all. It was a higher pace than I've seen. We pressed very high and aggressively, Cav and BDR pressuring the ball carrier, while Arter cuts off the passing lane centrally and Reed man-marks Eze. Cairney free-roams ball-side so he can be there to get the possession moving.
I have to keep making this point for some reason, but there is this perception that we play the game so slowly. Earlier in the season yes we did. Remember Cardiff City? Mawson and Ream, back and forth. Completely agree there. However, Parker has changed tactics to a higher pace. Look at the last 5 matches for example. The only part I agree with is this "Parkerball" concept of passing from the back, but Parker's not the only manager in the world who does that, so...
I completley agree regarding playing StefJo and Kmac. However, I loved that trio and 100% believe if Slav had played them more often in the Prem, we'd have been safe. You can't dismiss that kind of chemistry - which is what he did. Parker has had chances to bring them back, but hasn't done so either. I wish he would, but I don't see it as likely because Reed is playing great, Arter as well and scored his first league goal, so can't stop that momentum.
Much like we want Parker to change some things, we as supporters should be open to understand when he does actually change things. That's the point of my post. Not to say you aren't, but to stay on these rigid mindsets suggests we're paying attention to the past versus what is actually happening on the pitch. The resources are there for each to see if their statements are valid or not. I've been wrong in my initial assessments and have had to go back and watch matches to validate my findings. Just the other day I wrote the focus QPR reaction article and had to redo some parts several times because I was wrong about a player and a certain tactic.
I really enjoyed this post and agree that Parker has modified his style somewhat over the course of the season. It's questionable whether it has been any more successful but that wasn't your point. Overall a really balanced and thoughtful read.
On a slightly unrelated point there seems to be a debate on here as to whether Parker is "one of our own". Not for me, as that epithet usually relates to someone who came from our academy.
Thanks, Twig. I think my goal was more so awareness, rather than combatting facts. I am working on my own coaching badges (licenses in the US here I guess?), so I'm quite picky with Parker and his modifications.
I don't think Parker is one of our own at all. Hard not to think of him as a Spurs player more than anything. However, if Denis Odoi retires tomorrow and takes over coaching next season, would he be considered one of our own? I think the topic, in general, is quite interesting on what qualifies.
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on July 02, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
This is the part that I get confused about. If Mitro manages 23 goals, how on earth can he be said to be constantly isolated? Is this another slight on Parker because his striker is scoring goals? Do we just ignore the players around him who passed and set him up for his goals? Bryan and Cav have 14 assists alone. Cairney underachieving how exactly? He's got 8 goals and 3 assists, where he finished in our promo season with 5 goals and 5 assists.
Have you seen the heatmap vs QPR? He was all over the pitch. Each attack is orchestrated through him. The 90 minutes are up on the site, and it's clear as day if you are focused on him. To contrast, I also rewatched the match and chose to focus on BDR. While he did well as a false-9, his runs off the ball hurt us a bit as he's found himself offsides are just not aggressive enough (far post, near post runs) to drag their defenders. He stands still a lot in the box expecting for a square ball.
I can't say we advanced the ball slowly that much at all. It was a higher pace than I've seen. We pressed very high and aggressively, Cav and BDR pressuring the ball carrier, while Arter cuts off the passing lane centrally and Reed man-marks Eze. Cairney free-roams ball-side so he can be there to get the possession moving.
I have to keep making this point for some reason, but there is this perception that we play the game so slowly. Earlier in the season yes we did. Remember Cardiff City? Mawson and Ream, back and forth. Completely agree there. However, Parker has changed tactics to a higher pace. Look at the last 5 matches for example. The only part I agree with is this "Parkerball" concept of passing from the back, but Parker's not the only manager in the world who does that, so...
I completley agree regarding playing StefJo and Kmac. However, I loved that trio and 100% believe if Slav had played them more often in the Prem, we'd have been safe. You can't dismiss that kind of chemistry - which is what he did. Parker has had chances to bring them back, but hasn't done so either. I wish he would, but I don't see it as likely because Reed is playing great, Arter as well and scored his first league goal, so can't stop that momentum.
Much like we want Parker to change some things, we as supporters should be open to understand when he does actually change things. That's the point of my post. Not to say you aren't, but to stay on these rigid mindsets suggests we're paying attention to the past versus what is actually happening on the pitch. The resources are there for each to see if their statements are valid or not. I've been wrong in my initial assessments and have had to go back and watch matches to validate my findings. Just the other day I wrote the focus QPR reaction article and had to redo some parts several times because I was wrong about a player and a certain tactic.
Wow! a proper and thoughtful response of a kind I hope for every time I post and I thank you for that.
Regarding Mitro. It is strange isn't it, he gets loads of goals but IMO he is isolated and we do not get enough bodies in the box. f we set up a little differently he may score a few less, but the team would get more, and that is the issue for me, how to set up the team for best effect, not how to play so that one player looks good.
The same is true of TC. He gets his share of goals and assists but does not dominate the game like he used to so the team does not play as well because he is in the wrong position to make the best use of his talents. Cav, IMO has been one of the biggest disapointments. Whatever his stats are, with his ability he should be terrorising defences and thrilling us, but that just isn't the case. he is one dimensional and most teams seem to contain him very easilly.
I didn't really say we play to slowly but I did say we do not advance quickly enough. A subtle but profound difference. When kleeds hit us on the break, they didn't stop on the half way line they kept driving forward, we do not do that. That just has to be SP influencing decision making.
What I can see is that most (all?) the goals we conceded since the break have been from inside the box and that is where most goals are scored from by getting dodies in the box. We have scored from two long range efforts and when we havegot the ball in the box there is rarely more than one player...so that is the case with Mitro he gets on something and when the scramble occurs, there is nobody in there... this is poor tactics. and that is down to SP because it is week in week out.
SP shows his inexperience far too often. He does modify things but not as radically as I would like. He clearly ahs favourites and a favoured way of playing. Cav and Knock have massively underperormed in terms of end product, we can all see that with our eyes and I think that is down to tactics. We shall see what we shall see but I hate it when SP does say before the break we were the form team. In the last 7 we hadn't played all that well, won 3, drawn 3 and lost one. It's OK but not brilliant if promotion is the goal.
Thanks for the very good post, let's see what we make of tomorrows game.
Cheers, ALG! I can see where you're coming from. It's a bit ironic that the last couple matches with a higher pace, we have gotten even less players into the box. Our counter attacks become advanced possession (usually because the initial ball has been misplayed). When we played a more measured, and let's just say slower, attack - we were able to get players more into the box. I think our link up play at the top of the box, which is where we find ourselves a lot of the time, is often one pass too many. There was a moment in the QPR match in which BDR, Arter and Cav linked up brilliantly - but the final pass was just off the mark and we missed out on a shot taken instead. Or, if we looked backpost, like a lot of our opponents do, we may have been in even better spot.
Example here:
https://streamable.com/ib06ow
Good point about Mitro not having the support during the scramble. That's definitely different and is down to tactics. Some teams choose to back off to avoid counters, some will go in aggressively, like Bielsa does with Leeds. It's a bit strange because we defend from the front quite aggressively with our 4-4-2, but the centre midfielder (Arter v QPR) press extremely high. Maybe a swarming tactic could work, and could prevent less of those precision long balls over the top (away to Leeds, home to Barnsley, home to Swansea where we countered and scored though).
Regarding Parker, I'm just not sure what else he can do without modifying his entire system. This 4-3-3, even if it starts as a 4-2-3-1, is supposed to be dynamic and allows players to switch wings easily, midfielders to stick-and-twist (Cairney > Arter; Reed > Arter), but the end product is lacking. If it were up to me, I'd play Cav directly behind Mitro, or for the next two games as our main striker. I think he works much better centrally than he does waiting on the wings and expecting through balls as he cuts in. It would also help him be less prone to hold onto the ball for long periods of times and run into the ground.
Parker may be in a position that he needs to give up control to regain it. We should be a stronger counter-attacking team than we are. I can count maybe 2x that we've actually pulled off a proper counter attack, oddly enough the one we scored a goal on involved Cav passing to Kamara vs Preston at home. Yes, many have said how we possess for the sake of it, versus actually using what is functional. On some levels I do agree, but the players that get their chances really need to be finishing. It's such a tough spot to analyze because match form has been hit or miss for our wingers, those key 3 in BDR, Cav and Knockaert.
Quote from: Statto on July 03, 2020, 02:00:39 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on July 02, 2020, 05:22:51 PM
I have to keep making this point for some reason, but there is this perception that we play the game so slowly. Earlier in the season yes we did. Remember Cardiff City? Mawson and Ream, back and forth. Completely agree there. However, Parker has changed tactics to a higher pace.
Can you elaborate on this point.
I acknowledge we've started playing more directly out from the back. In particular, Hector and Rodak often play long balls, which I assume Parker instructed or at least doesn't object to.
However, other things such as the speed and fluidity of our passing, the speed with which we counter-attack, the players' movement when we're in possession, and of course our results, do not seem to me to have improved at all through the course of the season.
I wonder what all Parker chooses not to object to. Feel that he sighs everytime we send a long ball instead. However, the BDR goal vs Hudds is a great example of why we need those long balls.
https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2020/march/10/goal-of-the-month-result
The counter-attacks are lacking. I think that's one of the bigger sore areas of our team play. We've had countless opportunities to counter-attack properly, but either someone isn't paying attention, or someone else hasn't the quality of pass.
Tactically, maybe it's seriously time to kill off the inverted winger system. I liked the idea of Knoackaert on the left v QPR, but that didn't last long as it went back to the inverted wingers again.
Overall, our quality of attacks are lacking because of simple things like runs off the ball, making good passing decisions, etc. The key passes just aren't there, and when they are, they aren't capitalized as regularly as they should.
Look at these examples:
https://streamable.com/7uqlgj
> Inverted wingers ruins a good attack. Left footed early ball, and we're in. Defenders regroup, attack over.
https://streamable.com/24a6wh
> Swift attack down the right side via Knock and Christie. Example of RB tucking in more when Cyrus is in. Issue I have is why Cav is all the way on the backpost even though he can see space is tightening up on Knockaert. BDR makes the near post run, and Cav should be shadowing him.
https://streamable.com/wk3f67
> Nice combinations, this time Knockaert first time pass is lacking, but look at BDR's lazy run. If he doesn't want to be offsides, he can go at an angle near post and play off the LCB who is marking Knockaert, but he makes his attempt too late. There's not enough aggression here at all.
https://streamable.com/c6swpr
> Another good run by Christie, obvious play should be to Cav on the right. BDR is making a nothing type of run to an offside level, just so he can squeeze around the defenders. Again, awareness to how space is being closed down isn't understood. If the space is covering up that quickly, why would a run offsides help?
https://streamable.com/87l7rw
> Such a great chance here. Onomah gets a nice chipped pass from Hector. Instead of passing into space for BDR, he's taken it down and gone the other way. BDR then tries his best to force something out of nothing. *in the end, we recovered the ball back and it lead to the eventual Christie goal*.
So is this a Parker thing? Again, I have no idea. Is he drilling into the players that so-and-so needs to make those runs? Or make those passes. Who knows. These should be fairly obvious clues into how we're coming up short in the goal scoring department. We have all this ability to dominate from the back, midfield, attacking third ; but then at the top of the box, we fall flat. We don't expose teams with key passes enough, and when we do, after everything, we don't find the back of the net.
How many players have actually improved under SP? As for new management, you have to pay to get the best and it works. As for Roys style of football, it got us to our highest ever position in the league and to a European cup final. Enough said. Id have him back in a heart beat. Look at what hes done at palace.
Hodgson's tactics may have been somewhat conservative (which is understandable given we had different expectations in the PL vs the Championship) but what a lot seem to be overlooking is that our passing in that era was still crisp, accurate and fast. We were easy on the eye in possession, and would often build long passing moves, without just passing it back and forth along the back 4. There were commonalities with the Jokanovic era in that respect IMO. The criticism of Parker isn't as simple as just saying we're not adventurous or direct enough.
Quote from: Statto on July 04, 2020, 12:23:59 PM
Hodgson's tactics may have been somewhat conservative (which is understandable given we had different expectations in the PL vs the Championship) but what a lot seem to be overlooking is that our passing in that era was still crisp, accurate and fast. We were easy on the eye in possession, and would often build long passing moves, without just passing it back and forth along the back 4. There were commonalities with the Jokanovic era in that respect IMO. The criticism of Parker isn't as simple as just saying we're not adventurous or direct enough.
I agree with this. Hodgson's team were a joy with the ball at their feet; it would be wrong to remember it as anything else.
