Friends of Fulham

Wolves Post-Match Thread - drop your thoughts here about the match and tell us who your FoF MOTM was!

It was an interesting lineup that Marco put out with Palhinha suspended.  Loved seeing Tom starting I was surprised not to see LuKic.  Fulham came out playing very well and very quickly though as always there were just too many wayward passes. 

Harry was a fantastic substitute and did really well to win that second penalty.  And how good was it to see back-to-back penalties scored by Willan?  Can't remember the last time a Fulham player scored back-to-back penalties. 

All and all though a very important three points for Fulham.   ::scarf::

I thought Bassey & Iwobi were great.

"Questionable penalties" - wouldn't be said if it was any of the "big" or more favored teams. We are often screwed by such decisions, so don't care and happy with the three points. We bettered wolves overall, despite the fact we desperately need a proper striker up front. So many great balls across the box with no one there.

Hung on in there got 3 points all penalties look correct decisions but where the ref got 12 minutes added time from I don't know!!!

My immediate thought " we so needed that win " .
Not seen a minute of the match just following the scowling .

Tom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

Quote from: ChesterTheTabby on November 27, 2023, 10:03:44 PM"Questionable penalties" - wouldn't be said if it was any of the "big" or more favored teams. We are often screwed by such decisions, so don't care and happy with the three points. We bettered wolves overall, despite the fact we desperately need a proper striker up front. So many great balls across the box with no one there.

Remember Man City away last season with KDB, all of the media outlets and commentators calling him "clever", yet little old Fulham it's lucky or undeserved or whatever hyou want to call it

10 points clear of the drop zone.

Thank goodness.

If we stay up, there need to be several goodbyes at the end of the season. The two forwards tonight, plus regretfully a couple of our old heroes in Ream and Cairney.

Quote from: Deeping_white on November 27, 2023, 10:04:51 PM

Quote from: ChesterTheTabby on November 27, 2023, 10:03:44 PM"Questionable penalties" - wouldn't be said if it was any of the "big" or more favored teams. We are often screwed by such decisions, so don't care and happy with the three points. We bettered wolves overall, despite the fact we desperately need a proper striker up front. So many great balls across the box with no one there.

Remember Man City away last season with KDB, all of the media outlets and commentators calling him "clever", yet little old Fulham it's lucky or undeserved or whatever hyou want to call it

Oh Christ, that's exactly it isn't it? "Clever KDB knew what he was doing and baited Robinson"

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:04:23 PMTom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

I do think Tim Ream is struggling at the moment 😕

This is going to sound very bitter, but the Sky commentators are atrocious. So biased every time.

Well we take the result but Vinicius should not be considered as a player we should use. Frankly he could have been sent off twice in his last few appearances. I will need to see the penalties but the opinion is that out of three given tonight only the Wolves one was clear.

Still we have had the luck of decisions tonight for the first time in some time. Against a Wolves side who are coming into form. I will take the points over the performance. But tonight does nothing to ease the doubt over our play. But players are coming back from injury. Which is a plus and three points is a big bonus.

I feel so relieved! Great performance from Iwobi and Cairney. What is up with Vini? He's done this several times this season where he just unnecessarily instigates something.

Bassey looks really solid, has pace to cover and on the ground he's a rock. With him at LCB and Tosin/Diop on the right I think it solves a lot of defensive issues, plus Tete being back will make us better too. We just need to start putting the ball in the net more regularly and then we'll keep climbing. Raul is a shadow of himself and Vini is as dumb as a rock, we need to get through to Jan and get a new forward and then it takes a lot of pressure off the team. You can see they're not at 100% mentally with the little errors, which I kind of get given where we sat in the table. With some confidence coming back into the team I think it cuts some of those little things out, confidence is a huge part of football

Felt like we were really running on empty up a steep hill but made it in the end, just.

We never once looked in control of the game really, Leno was our best player again, madesome good saves and was a calming presence when the defence was a bit shaky.

Ream had his worst game in a long time, did not look up to pace at all. Hopefully it's just a dip after the international break, and he will be be back to his smooth and controlled self next match.

Jimenez did nothing, Vini did even worse (could have got a red), it was Cairney and Willian who did our best attacking work, but weren't great, and Wilson did well when he came on

Still, a vital win. If we drew that I think we would be in real trouble, but they managed to get the 3 points.

3 points. Get in! F**k the sky big club 'pundits'

Quote from: Oakeshott on November 27, 2023, 10:05:07 PMThank goodness.

If we stay up, there need to be several goodbyes at the end of the season. The two forwards tonight, plus regretfully a couple of our old heroes in Ream and Cairney.

Strange comment. TC was arguably the best player on the pitch tonight...

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 27, 2023, 10:07:00 PMWell we take the result but Vinicius should not be considered as a player we should use. Frankly he could have been sent off twice in his last few appearances.

Agree. He came on, mostly just lost the ball, was nowhere near the area when the ball made its way there and could and probably should have been sent off.

He is worse than Mitro ever was with this tough guy act.

A result for the bed wetters tonight! Silva out!  :slap:

What a relief with that win. God did we need that.

 ::scarf::

Well that was a nerve wracking one

Huge 3 points - 10 point cushion just what the doctor ordered.
Tough game next up at Liverpool and then another huge game at home to Forest. I think we can get around 8-9 points by January which will put us on schedule for the coveted 40 point mark and make us a better proposition to anyone coming in in January. Fingers crossed then we can push on.

Played well at times tonight

Iwobi, Cairney, Bassey, the stand outs for me. Thought Harrison did pretty well in the engine room and Willian was decent. Wilson again injecting some good pace off the bench.

All in all a deserved 3 points on the balance in my opinion

COYW

Phew! thats it, nothing else to say but phew!

As others have said I'm done with Vinicius. The guy is a hothead. Should have been sent off a couple of times this season with his stupid elbowing of peoples backs and now this 'head on head' moment

A lot of us have wanted to start Cairney for a long time and he didn't disappoint. We looked more creative in the last third. Willian took his penalties very well. If Mitro was still here we'd probably have lost 2-1! Iwobi pretty good tonight. Pereira lacked output. I love Tim Ream but this performance tonight may suggest that age is catching up with him. Precious victory.

Great effort to win that. I'm delighted for Marco and the lads. When we get injured players back we are covered in most areas. Ream can drop to the bench, Tete's return gives us more FB options, TC has shown he can last the full 90, all good.  But my oh my don't we need a proper striker! Jimenez is the invisible man and Vini's more fighter than footballer.

Quote from: ffcthereligion on November 27, 2023, 10:09:44 PMA result for the bed wetters tonight! Silva out!  :slap:

Have people actually been calling for Silva out?!

Thought we looked very good in the second half and Cairney definitely played a big part in that - his game improved and along with it, so did the team's.

Vinicius was lucky not to have been red carded with his head "touch". I don't know what his problem is - he does this sort of thing far too often and it's going to cost us one day.

Willian took both penalties incredibly well. I did think the Wilson penalty was a bit soft though. In slow motion, you can see there was contact but he was running away from the goal and there wasn't really any goal threat. Without VAR, that would never have been given.

Anyway, a great result against a decent team and it puts some clear light between us and the relegation places.

Quote from: demeant0r on November 27, 2023, 10:07:06 PMI feel so relieved! Great performance from Iwobi and Cairney. What is up with Vini? He's done this several times this season where he just unnecessarily instigates something.

Vini was great in preseason and was okay in his first few matches, but recently he has become a red card waiting to happen and offers next to nothing going forward. Raul is also very poor. I really hope Muniz comes back soon as he offers by far the most out of those three, in my opinon.

On the game, in the first half, I thought we had both good and bad moments and a draw was a fair result at half time. I thought we were the better team in the second half and deserved the win. Bar a few big defensive mistakes, we were pretty good.

I'd swap Palhinha for Reed, Tete for Castagne and Tosin for Ream in the next game for me.

The SKY commentators seemed to be willing Wolves to score throughout the game.
Hats off to Cairney and Bassey for outstanding performances and what a player Tom would have been had he not just used his right foot to stand on . I must admit that Wilson bought his penalty cleverly!

I'd be tempted to try Wilson at striker at this rate. Surprisingly strong in the air and has some pace to get in behind.

Quote from: SerbianLad on November 27, 2023, 10:13:27 PM

Quote from: demeant0r on November 27, 2023, 10:07:06 PMI feel so relieved! Great performance from Iwobi and Cairney. What is up with Vini? He's done this several times this season where he just unnecessarily instigates something.

Vini was great in preseason and was okay in his first few matches, but recently he has become a red card waiting to happen and offers next to nothing going forward. Raul is also very poor. I really hope Muniz comes back soon as he offers by far the most out of those three, in my opinon.

On the game, in the first half, I thought we had both good and bad moments and a draw was a fair result at half time. I thought we were the better team in the second half and deserved the win. Bar a few big defensive mistakes, we were pretty good.

I'd swap Palhinha for Reed, Tete for Castagne and Tosin for Ream in the next game for me.

Is Vini channeling the Mitro of old? I'd be fine with him never playing for Fulham again. He's scored a couple this season but they were mainly tap-ins which anyone can score.

Quote from: SerbianLad on November 27, 2023, 10:13:27 PM

Quote from: demeant0r on November 27, 2023, 10:07:06 PMI feel so relieved! Great performance from Iwobi and Cairney. What is up with Vini? He's done this several times this season where he just unnecessarily instigates something.

Vini was great in preseason and was okay in his first few matches, but recently he has become a red card waiting to happen and offers next to nothing going forward. Raul is also very poor. I really hope Muniz comes back soon as he offers by far the most out of those three, in my opinon.

On the game, in the first half, I thought we had both good and bad moments and a draw was a fair result at half time. I thought we were the better team in the second half and deserved the win. Bar a few big defensive mistakes, we were pretty good.

I'd swap Palhinha for Reed, Tete for Castagne and Tosin for Ream in the next game for me.

I think those changes should clearly be made and then we should look a lot more solid. My big issue is who on earth Marco plays up front?

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:16:49 PMI'd be tempted to try Wilson at striker at this rate. Surprisingly strong in the air and has some pace to get in behind.

Well we have to try something else and that's as good a shout as any.

Willian must be our leading goal scorer now with 3?

Quote from: SimonDaviesEnjoyer on November 27, 2023, 10:06:31 PMThis is going to sound very bitter, but the Sky commentators are atrocious. So biased every time.

It's not sounding bitter at all. It's the truth!

not often a player scores 2 out of the 3 goals and doesnt get motm. but willians passing was a bit off tonight.

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:09:12 PM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 27, 2023, 10:07:00 PMWell we take the result but Vinicius should not be considered as a player we should use. Frankly he could have been sent off twice in his last few appearances.

Agree. He came on, mostly just lost the ball, was nowhere near the area when the ball made its way there and could and probably should have been sent off.

He is worse than Mitro ever was with this tough guy act.

Quote from: southwest6 on November 27, 2023, 10:09:00 PM

Quote from: Oakeshott on November 27, 2023, 10:05:07 PMThank goodness.

If we stay up, there need to be several goodbyes at the end of the season. The two forwards tonight, plus regretfully a couple of our old heroes in Ream and Cairney.

Strange comment. TC was arguably the best player on the pitch tonight...
[/quote

Totally agree.
 Ream had a good game too, given our defence generally seemed very shaky in the first half, but much better second.

Quote from: demeant0r on November 27, 2023, 10:18:31 PMIs Vini channeling the Mitro of old? I'd be fine with him never playing for Fulham again. He's scored a couple this season but they were mainly tap-ins which anyone can score.

He plays like Mitro played at Newcastle, but he does it without offering anything in the footballing terms. I'm shocked he did it again today. This was the last straw for me.

Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2023, 10:18:33 PMI think those changes should clearly be made and then we should look a lot more solid. My big issue is who on earth Marco plays up front?

That's the biggest question. As I said, I hope Muniz will be back soon. He's not perfect, but he's still by bar and away our best option at the moment, in my opinion.

I voted for the unsung Timothy Castagne. He had a good game, with two superb defensive clearances in the six yard box, and some intelligent supporting runs in attack, especially in the first half.

Tom Cairney was influential as usual and overall had a good game, but from time to time punctured the momentum of promising attacks by passing backwards. He also misplaced more passes than he usually does.

Someone needs to check the graphics above. Willian has achieved the unusual feat of being substituted in the 82nd minute before coolly firing home the penalty in injury time.  Tom Cairney is shown as having stayed on the full 102 minutes, with Harrison Reed being substitued after 77 minutes.

We could just not play with a centre forward, play a kind of 4-2-2-2 with 2 holding midfielders, two wingers and two attacking mids in TC & Wilson/Iwobi and just have them both as a false 9

Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2023, 10:18:33 PM

Quote from: SerbianLad on November 27, 2023, 10:13:27 PM

Quote from: demeant0r on November 27, 2023, 10:07:06 PMI feel so relieved! Great performance from Iwobi and Cairney. What is up with Vini? He's done this several times this season where he just unnecessarily instigates something.

Vini was great in preseason and was okay in his first few matches, but recently he has become a red card waiting to happen and offers next to nothing going forward. Raul is also very poor. I really hope Muniz comes back soon as he offers by far the most out of those three, in my opinon.

On the game, in the first half, I thought we had both good and bad moments and a draw was a fair result at half time. I thought we were the better team in the second half and deserved the win. Bar a few big defensive mistakes, we were pretty good.

I'd swap Palhinha for Reed, Tete for Castagne and Tosin for Ream in the next game for me.

I think those changes should clearly be made and then we should look a lot more solid. My big issue is who on earth Marco plays up front?

up front the 20 million question.right now I haven't a clue as good defensive and midfield back up ,as for 20 million question give Wilson a go,Marco did with James last season and think he would be more effective.

When it comes to different options up front, we only have 2 which are either to play Harry or BDR as our main striker, they can't do any worse than our 3 "recognised" 2 strikers.

Now one point behind the team from the dog track.

I thought T.C had a great match today, he grew into the game and should start against the bin dippers.
Castagne and Iwobi deserve the plaudits too...super game, great 3 points.

Gary moaning about VAR

Happy to call out when VAR goes in our favour when it shouldn't.

All 3 decisions were correct.
bog off

Why the referee thinks hes made a mistake I don't know

I've given it to Willian, simply because of his assurance on the penalties. Nobody played consistently well through the whole game. Cairney was good in the second half. Wilson made a difference when he came on but it was only a cameo. Robinson was good in attack but poor in defence. I thought Iwobi was good in patches and put in a great stint, but overall Willian's penalties had the greatest affect on the result.

Thought Robinson, Iwobi, Tom, Reed, and Castagne were excellent. Castagne did make a few mistakes, but saved two clear goals. Willian did his job all night and possibly should get MOTM for his penalties. Ream and Bassey did well overall. Everyone will blame Ream for conceding a penalty, but I think that's pretty harsh. Under a lot of pressure, Bassey headed it straight into the path of the wolves attacker and then the attacker got sandwiched a bit between Ream and Robinson. For me, it's a defensive breakdown that caused the penalty, not solely due to a blatant individual error by Ream. Andreas put in a shift but was too anonymous. Raul offered very little. Vini almost costs us the game. Lukic attempting a dummy late on that resulted in a very cheap give away, drove me nuts. Wilson was great when he came on.

MOTM is Tom for me. He was the best player on the pitch tonight. Lemina didn't know what to do with him.

One point behind Walham Green and most likely half way to safety. What's the problem, eh?

Good job well done lads.

Quote from: FishaPrice on November 27, 2023, 10:57:39 PMThought Robinson, Iwobi, Tom, Reed, and Castagne were excellent. Castagne did make a few mistakes, but saved two clear goals. Willian did his job all night and possibly should get MOTM for his penalties. Ream and Bassey did well overall. Everyone will blame Ream for conceding a penalty, but I think that's pretty harsh. Under a lot of pressure, Bassey headed it straight into the path of the wolves attacker and then the attacker got sandwiched a bit between Ream and Robinson. For me, it's a defensive breakdown that caused the penalty, not solely due to a blatant individual error by Ream. Andreas put in a shift but was too anonymous. Raul offered very little. Vini almost costs us the game. Wilson was great when he came on.

MOTM is Tom for me. He was the best player on the pitch tonight. Lemina didn't know what to do with him.

It wasn't a howler from Ream, but it is another one of those situations where risk is created because he doesn't have the legs. If he has the pace of our other CBs he just runs with hang and tries to muscle him, rather than panic and try to shove him as he's getting run past. 

Quote from: SuffolkWhite on November 27, 2023, 10:11:29 PMPhew! thats it, nothing else to say but phew!

Phew indeex.... 👍⚽️
COYW

For me it's Castagne, no contest. He was amazing and saved at least two goals.

TC for me without a doubt. We needed goals, and he was in the thick of it all. Have to give kudos to Silva for using this set-up of some strong possession players in Willian-TC-AP-Iwobi ; that is by far the strongest we have looked on the ball.

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:16:49 PMI'd be tempted to try Wilson at striker at this rate. Surprisingly strong in the air and has some pace to get in behind.

He looked good when he came centrally. I think he's wasted on the right

Thought our passing was slick and crisp at times, but Wolves had a better game plan. They pressed our defence and we were lucky quite a few times.
Cairney was man of the match for me, but playing with Jiminez was like playing with 10 men. We needed to press them like they pressed us. Regardless of Vini's over zealousness, he had little time to make an impact and at least had a presence up front where we had none with Raul.
We are a few players short of being mid table, so results like tonight give us a bit of much needed breathing space.
As for the penalties, I couldn't believe VAR took so long to concur with the original decision. Regardless of whether the Wolves player touched the ball, Tom played it with his right and was heading further into the box. It was a foul and a definite penalty. Likewise theirs and ditto with Wilson. I honestly couldn't believe the comments from the ridiculous Smith. We are not judging by past standards of penalties... we are judging by today and those decisions are given week in week out.
COYW.

Pretty fun match to watch, and massive 3 points, but I'm fed up of conceding soft goals.

Ream will always be a Fulham legend, but we can't afford to be sentimental, and I think we have to face the fact he's not good enough any more. That's no shame on him.

I'm also frustrated with Robinson who is always being beaten and/or losing the ball.

Leno had an uncharacteristically off game (and some good saves too to be fair), and we were lucky not to have been punished.

Iwobi was great, although he really should have buried that chance in the second half.

Cairney was great.
Wilson was great.
Bassey was decent.

Agree with what has already been said about Vini.

TC was good but I gave it to Willian for his penalties, we so needed some one calm to step up and take them.

Quote from: Black and White Town on November 27, 2023, 11:44:42 PMPretty fun match to watch, and massive 3 points, but I'm fed up of conceding soft goals.

Ream will always be a Fulham legend, but we can't afford to be sentimental, and I think we have to face the fact he's not good enough any more. That's no shame on him.

I'm also frustrated with Robinson who is always being beaten and/or losing the ball.

Leno had an uncharacteristically off game (and some good saves too to be fair), and we were lucky not to have been punished.

Iwobi was great, although he really should have buried that chance in the second half.

Cairney was great.
Wilson was great.
Bassey was decent.

Agree with what has already been said about Vini.

I don't think Ream isn't good enough anymore, but he definitely lacks some pace these days. That's the difference. Technically, situationally, and leadership wise he's just fine... but at some point the younger, faster strikers cause you to make mistakes due to misjudged pace, and therein lies Tim's problem.

Quote from: Motspur Park on November 27, 2023, 11:44:03 PMThought our passing was slick and crisp at times, but Wolves had a better game plan. They pressed our defence and we were lucky quite a few times.
Cairney was man of the match for me, but playing with Jiminez was like playing with 10 men. We needed to press them like they pressed us. Regardless of Vini's over zealousness, he had little time to make an impact and at least had a presence up front where we had none with Raul.
We are a few players short of being mid table, so results like tonight give us a bit of much needed breathing space.
As for the penalties, I couldn't believe VAR took so long to concur with the original decision. Regardless of whether the Wolves player touched the ball, Tom played it with his right and was heading further into the box. It was a foul and a definite penalty. Likewise theirs and ditto with Wilson. I honestly couldn't believe the comments from the ridiculous Smith. We are not judging by past standards of penalties... we are judging by today and those decisions are given week in week out.
COYW.

This Raul slating is just always unfounded to me. Do you not see him hold the ball up constantly? He doesn't lose possession often, maybe twice the entire match. However, his winning the ball is so significant to our attacks. Just compare him to Vini and you'll see just how bad Vini is compared to him.

The issue I'm starting to have with Raul is he is just too unselfish and too nice. He wants to get rid of the ball to safety as soon as he can. He is trying to play too many slick 1-2 passes. To say it's like playing 10 men though is just far off the mark and I'd suggest rewatching the match, watching Jimenez specifically and see if the same statement comes back.

TC was great today, especially second half. Good to see him stay on the pitch from start to finish. Think with our striker issues this year his added calmness and eye for a pass in the attacking third more than make up for his defensive frailties.

Would love for him to get a run of games and kick on but I fear Silva will have him back to first sub.

I get AP works hard and has decent set piece ability but he's gone missing so often this year in open play.

Iwobi for me, great in both halves of the game.  TC got better as space opened up.  And we are going to enjoy Calvin Bassey for years to come.  He's a boss when things get choppy.

Willian's first pen was a Berba-esque masterpiece.  His second showed a different type of competence

Aside from the win, what's good about tonight is that it's so obvious how to improve the team.  Reams legs have gone, Pereira comes off second far too frequently and we need a certain type of striker.  I found myself reflecting how Bobby Zamora would have thrived in tonight's team.

I still dislike VAR. 

Iwobi for me

I don't know if anyone else was watching on sky, but did anyone catch the comment Carragher made about 10 mins before kick off about us? Basically insinuated that last season we just kept arms length from the relegation places all season, which is some of the weirdest revisionism I've ever heard. Basically made out that we're here to make the numbers up last season and this, and the guy hosting MNF said "well they finished 10th last year, but got relegated 3 times in a row before that just for context", like it had any bearing on this season or squad whatsoever. I'm used to us being seen as little old Fulham on TV broadcasts but figured sky would be able to talk about us without being condescending on the regular

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 27, 2023, 10:07:00 PMWell we take the result but Vinicius should not be considered as a player we should use. Frankly he could have been sent off twice in his last few appearances. I will need to see the penalties but the opinion is that out of three given tonight only the Wolves one was clear.

Still we have had the luck of decisions tonight for the first time in some time. Against a Wolves side who are coming into form. I will take the points over the performance. But tonight does nothing to ease the doubt over our play. But players are coming back from injury. Which is a plus and three points is a big bonus.

Bang on as usual Lighthouse.

Quote from: ChesterTheTabby on November 27, 2023, 11:53:05 PM

Quote from: Black and White Town on November 27, 2023, 11:44:42 PMPretty fun match to watch, and massive 3 points, but I'm fed up of conceding soft goals.

Ream will always be a Fulham legend, but we can't afford to be sentimental, and I think we have to face the fact he's not good enough any more. That's no shame on him.

I'm also frustrated with Robinson who is always being beaten and/or losing the ball.

Leno had an uncharacteristically off game (and some good saves too to be fair), and we were lucky not to have been punished.

Iwobi was great, although he really should have buried that chance in the second half.

Cairney was great.
Wilson was great.
Bassey was decent.

Agree with what has already been said about Vini.

I don't think Ream isn't good enough anymore, but he definitely lacks some pace these days. That's the difference. Technically, situationally, and leadership wise he's just fine... but at some point the younger, faster strikers cause you to make mistakes due to misjudged pace, and therein lies Tim's problem.

Agree. He just seems that half step slow in anticipating the action and with his absence of pace it is more glaring.

If Tosin is ready it might be time to make a change at LCB, but I'll be surprised if it occurs.

Quote from: Oakeshott on November 27, 2023, 10:05:07 PMThank goodness.

If we stay up, there need to be several goodbyes at the end of the season. The two forwards tonight, plus regretfully a couple of our old heroes in Ream and Cairney.

Cairney MO

Quote from: Oakeshott on November 27, 2023, 10:05:07 PMThank goodness.

If we stay up, there need to be several goodbyes at the end of the season. The two forwards tonight, plus regretfully a couple of our old heroes in Ream and Cairney.

Cairney By far according to the votes on here our MOTM today and you can't wait to  get shot of him ?

Opposed to Perreira who was non existent  yet again today, hmmmmmm

Quote from: KJS on November 27, 2023, 10:05:41 PM

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:04:23 PMTom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

I do think Tim Ream is struggling at the moment 😕

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,

Quote from: jayffc on November 27, 2023, 10:09:50 PMWell that was a nerve wracking one

Huge 3 points - 10 point cushion just what the doctor ordered.
Tough game next up at Liverpool and then another huge game at home to Forest. I think we can get around 8-9 points by January which will put us on schedule for the coveted 40 point mark and make us a better proposition to anyone coming in in January. Fingers crossed then we can push on.

Played well at times tonight

Iwobi, Cairney, Bassey, the stand outs for me. Thought Harrison did pretty well in the engine room and Willian was decent. Wilson again injecting some good pace off the bench.

All in all a deserved 3 points on the balance in my opinion

COYW

Solid review !!
Reed a few sloppy passes at the beginning which could of cost us

Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2023, 10:18:33 PM

Quote from: SerbianLad on November 27, 2023, 10:13:27 PM

Quote from: demeant0r on November 27, 2023, 10:07:06 PMI feel so relieved! Great performance from Iwobi and Cairney. What is up with Vini? He's done this several times this season where he just unnecessarily instigates something.

Vini was great in preseason and was okay in his first few matches, but recently he has become a red card waiting to happen and offers next to nothing going forward. Raul is also very poor. I really hope Muniz comes back soon as he offers by far the most out of those three, in my opinon.

On the game, in the first half, I thought we had both good and bad moments and a draw was a fair result at half time. I thought we were the better team in the second half and deserved the win. Bar a few big defensive mistakes, we were pretty good.

I'd swap Palhinha for Reed, Tete for Castagne and Tosin for Ream in the next game for me.

I think those changes should clearly be made and then we should look a lot more solid. My big issue is who on earth Marco plays up front?

Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2023, 10:18:33 PM

Quote from: SerbianLad on November 27, 2023, 10:13:27 PM

Quote from: demeant0r on November 27, 2023, 10:07:06 PMI feel so relieved! Great performance from Iwobi and Cairney. What is up with Vini? He's done this several times this season where he just unnecessarily instigates something.

Vini was great in preseason and was okay in his first few matches, but recently he has become a red card waiting to happen and offers next to nothing going forward. Raul is also very poor. I really hope Muniz comes back soon as he offers by far the most out of those three, in my opinon.

On the game, in the first half, I thought we had both good and bad moments and a draw was a fair result at half time. I thought we were the better team in the second half and deserved the win. Bar a few big defensive mistakes, we were pretty good.

I'd swap Palhinha for Reed, Tete for Castagne and Tosin for Ream in the next game for me.

I think those changes should clearly be made and then we should look a lot more solid. My big issue is who on earth Marco plays up front?

A bit harsh on Castagne who I felt had a very good game last night BUT I do agree it's time for Kenny to come back

Quote from: Matt10 on November 27, 2023, 11:16:05 PMTC for me without a doubt. We needed goals, and he was in the thick of it all. Have to give kudos to Silva for using this set-up of some strong possession players in Willian-TC-AP-Iwobi ; that is by far the strongest we have looked on the ball.

I thought I was the only one that thought that, he played well tonight, holds the ball very well, hardly gave it away, his first touch is very good, agree likes the little flicks and one set up Iwobi who made the keeper save well when through on goal.
My only criticism if you can call it that is wish he would get in the box more!

Quote from: brightster on November 28, 2023, 04:57:52 AM

Quote from: Matt10 on November 27, 2023, 11:16:05 PMTC for me without a doubt. We needed goals, and he was in the thick of it all. Have to give kudos to Silva for using this set-up of some strong possession players in Willian-TC-AP-Iwobi ; that is by far the strongest we have looked on the ball.

I thought I was the only one that thought that, he played well tonight, holds the ball very well, hardly gave it away, his first touch is very good, agree likes the little flicks and one set up Iwobi who made the keeper save well when through on goal.
My only criticism if you can call it that is wish he would get in the box more!

100% agree. He needs to get into the box as soon as he can because he tends to hold the ball up in deeper areas, and even some wide spots, then doesn't race into the box.

I just don't get how that hard work to hold onto the ball, or to get a crucial touch, that keeps or starts our momentum in possession is completely nullified just because he's not scoring or having chances. It's this same old boring narrative that fans create themselves as if that's doing work against the team. In fact, Silva says strikers in his system do more than just score goals. So if our striker is doing something helpful, but can't score goals, it should be seen as that.

Quote from: Matt10 on November 28, 2023, 12:13:53 AM

Quote from: Motspur Park on November 27, 2023, 11:44:03 PMThought our passing was slick and crisp at times, but Wolves had a better game plan. They pressed our defence and we were lucky quite a few times.
Cairney was man of the match for me, but playing with Jiminez was like playing with 10 men. We needed to press them like they pressed us. Regardless of Vini's over zealousness, he had little time to make an impact and at least had a presence up front where we had none with Raul.
We are a few players short of being mid table, so results like tonight give us a bit of much needed breathing space.
As for the penalties, I couldn't believe VAR took so long to concur with the original decision. Regardless of whether the Wolves player touched the ball, Tom played it with his right and was heading further into the box. It was a foul and a definite penalty. Likewise theirs and ditto with Wilson. I honestly couldn't believe the comments from the ridiculous Smith. We are not judging by past standards of penalties... we are judging by today and those decisions are given week in week out.
COYW.

This Raul slating is just always unfounded to me. Do you not see him hold the ball up constantly? He doesn't lose possession often, maybe twice the entire match. However, his winning the ball is so significant to our attacks. Just compare him to Vini and you'll see just how bad Vini is compared to him.

The issue I'm starting to have with Raul is he is just too unselfish and too nice. He wants to get rid of the ball to safety as soon as he can. He is trying to play too many slick 1-2 passes. To say it's like playing 10 men though is just far off the mark and I'd suggest rewatching the match, watching Jimenez specifically and see if the same statement comes back.

Be assured I am not scapegoating him but when you say his hold up play.....when? The game just passed him by. Admittedly, a tough ask against their backs, but when we went forward, there was no striker to seek out. He was nowhere to be seen. Jogging around and seemed disinterested. We do not have options at the moment but I seriously cannot believe we scouted this guy. He may suit a different style of attack to what we provide but whatever the question, he isn't the answer.

Quote from: Matt10 on November 28, 2023, 05:15:01 AM

Quote from: brightster on November 28, 2023, 04:57:52 AM

Quote from: Matt10 on November 27, 2023, 11:16:05 PMTC for me without a doubt. We needed goals, and he was in the thick of it all. Have to give kudos to Silva for using this set-up of some strong possession players in Willian-TC-AP-Iwobi ; that is by far the strongest we have looked on the ball.

I thought I was the only one that thought that, he played well tonight, holds the ball very well, hardly gave it away, his first touch is very good, agree likes the little flicks and one set up Iwobi who made the keeper save well when through on goal.
My only criticism if you can call it that is wish he would get in the box more!

100% agree. He needs to get into the box as soon as he can because he tends to hold the ball up in deeper areas, and even some wide spots, then doesn't race into the box.

I just don't get how that hard work to hold onto the ball, or to get a crucial touch, that keeps or starts our momentum in possession is completely nullified just because he's not scoring or having chances. It's this same old boring narrative that fans create themselves as if that's doing work against the team. In fact, Silva says strikers in his system do more than just score goals. So if our striker is doing something helpful, but can't score goals, it should be seen as that.

If you compare Raul's output to his former teammate Hwang, he comes off pretty unfavourably. Hwang was a bit of a menace while the Wolves CBs looked pretty comfortable against Raul. He just seems to coast, doesn't do anything with any real intensity. When he had a chance to dribble at the defence he looked like he didn't believe he could get through. Air-shot in the first minute when he should probably have scored.

Quote from: southwest6 on November 27, 2023, 10:09:00 PM

Quote from: Oakeshott on November 27, 2023, 10:05:07 PMThank goodness.

If we stay up, there need to be several goodbyes at the end of the season. The two forwards tonight, plus regretfully a couple of our old heroes in Ream and Cairney.

Strange comment. TC was arguably the best player on the pitch tonight...

well football is a game of opinions.
TC would give him a years extension myself as still best player on the pitch,my opinion.

Quote from: Deeping_white on November 28, 2023, 01:16:22 AMI don't know if anyone else was watching on sky, but did anyone catch the comment Carragher made about 10 mins before kick off about us? Basically insinuated that last season we just kept arms length from the relegation places all season, which is some of the weirdest revisionism I've ever heard. Basically made out that we're here to make the numbers up last season and this, and the guy hosting MNF said "well they finished 10th last year, but got relegated 3 times in a row before that just for context", like it had any bearing on this season or squad whatsoever. I'm used to us being seen as little old Fulham on TV broadcasts but figured sky would be able to talk about us without being condescending on the regular

And then at the end the spitting scouser still thought that we are in the relegation mix even though Palace and Wolves have 15 points as well. If we are then so are they. You really have to wonder why so many in the media are against us.

Quote from: perry geyton on November 28, 2023, 04:08:41 AM

Quote from: KJS on November 27, 2023, 10:05:41 PM

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:04:23 PMTom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

I do think Tim Ream is struggling at the moment 😕

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,

He had an overall decent game but his lack of pace gave him a yellow card, which could very easily have become a red with the penalty situation. It would have been harsh, but Ream's lack of pace is a problem, especially without Palhinha to protect out back four,

All the fuss about the penalties masks the fact that when you get on the ball inside the area defenders are forced to make decisions which can result in goals.

We don't do it enough, same with getting bodies in the box and delivering the ball into the danger areas quickly and more often.

Our first goal was a great example of moving players and the ball at speed into the danger areas.
They outnumbered us 2 to 1 in the box for the first goal but dynamic movement and quick delivery resulted in a goal (between the keepers legs before he or his teammates could react.

We just don't do this enough!

We may not get 2 penalties every game but its a process that worries opposition and creates more chances.

Iwobi was my MOTM. Bassey had a good game too. Overall a decent performance from everyone except Vini. Unacceptable behaviour and he contributed absolutely nothing.

Cairney... Opinions are divived, as always. He was rather invisible in the first half but maybe our best player in the second half, with some glimpses of pure football magic. And that tackle... wow!

Fortunately we have moved away from the foul in the area being an automatic booking. Ream was guilty and it was a penalty but never in a million years was it a yellow card offence and, by definition, he wasn't lucky to stay on the pitch.
To be fair as an ex-ref I am struggling with the offside rule. The guy who won the penalty was offside when the ball was played forward. He didn't receive the ball but was still active in the same phase of play. Is the rule now that it is only when passed to that you can be offside? How does this equate to the interference when a striker is offside and gets called for offside when nr the goal but doesn't touch the ball.
The messing about with the laws of the game has made it so that very few are aware of what is deemed to be a correct interpretation.

TC for me by a mile, in the first half he steadied our midfield and ensured we were so,I'd and he ran the show in the second half. Plus whoever said he can't tackle?!
I know Willian scored his two pens but his radar was off last night with too many loose passes plus I thought he slowed things down unnecessarily on a few occasions.
Honourable mentions for Iwobi, Bassey and Castagne.
Jimenez completely anonymous, time to try Wilson in the striking role. Tete's return will give us great FB options. Time soon for Tim to become a wise head on the bench as we have decent younger options at CB with a bit more speed.

Tom Cairney was my mom,
he showed class and is a genuine playmaker and creates chances more than any other player on the books.
A midfield general we have been missing.
He makes time for himself and his first touch is sublime as opposed to some players who could not trap a bag of cement.
A player with vision.

Would be interesting to know if Jimenez was already on the recruitment radar before Mitro downed tools?

I guess he was a reasonable punt (albeit expensive salary wise) no disrespect to him but it failed.

Are we playing to his strengths, maybe not but even on an off day Mitro caused problems while this guy contributes almost nothing.

Vini does an occasional Job but clearly not the answer, Muniz could be but I doubt he will be given a long run to develop his game.

Time to adjust the tactics at least until the window opens.

I enjoyed the match which was full of drama and one or two concerns, but a massive three points which was the most important matter we had to bring back to the dressing room after the spectacle.
So my eldest son and i drove home happy men.
However we agreed in the car on the way back that as a unit our defence at times resembled the key stone cops.
I thought Bassey had a good game and i was pleased to see Tosin come on to boost the defence, but unfortunately and i hate to say it but Ream showed he is the weakest link, and he worries me.
We deserved to win the match but we were fortunate not concede more goals, as there were a couple of calamities which we got away with on the night.
Once again last night showed regrettably that Jeminez and Vinny are just not good enough no matter how much you spin it.
There will be tougher matches to come and we are basically punchless up front over a whole game.
Add the dodgy defending at times and it creates a cocktail of genuine concern.
Just my take on observing from the Hammy end but
Nevertheless we shall enjoy the three points which could be very crucial at the end of the season.
A massive result under the circumstances which will boost moral and team spirit and confidence, although we do need surgery in January.

Another way of looking at this is - we won the game because MItro didnt take the penalties! :slap:

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on November 28, 2023, 09:17:42 AMI enjoyed the match which was full of drama and one or two concerns, but a massive three points which was the most important matter we had to bring back to the dressing room after the spectacle.
So my eldest son and i drove home happy men.
However we agreed in the car on the way back that as a unit our defence at times resembled the key stone cops.
I thought Bassey had a good game and i was pleased to see Tosin come on to boost the defence, but unfortunately and i hate to say it but Ream showed he is the weakest link, and he worries me.
We deserved to win the match but we were fortunate not concede more goals, as there were a couple of calamities which we got away with on the night.
Once again last night showed regrettably that Jeminez and Vinny are just not good enough no matter how much you spin it.
There will be tougher matches to come and we are basically punchless up front over a whole game.
Add the dodgy defending at times and it creates a cocktail of genuine concern.
Just my take on observing from the Hammy end but
Nevertheless we shall enjoy the three points which could be very crucial at the end of the season.
A massive result under the circumstances which will boost moral and team spirit and confidence, although we do need surgery in January.

these games v mid table and lower we need positive results home and away rest of the season and we will be fine it can be helped by getting a proper fit quality striker target man who can get 10 to 15 goals.

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on November 28, 2023, 09:17:42 AMi hate to say it but Ream showed he is the weakest link, and he worries me.

Still the best on the ball of our CHs, but the trade off is for speed and strength. Pretty sure all three other CHs wouldn't have had the penalty given against them last night because a) they'd have got there sooner and b) their size would have made it look more like a "coming together".

Ream still just about gets the nod, but is only a mistake + a fit Diop away from losing his place.

Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2023, 10:18:33 PM

Quote from: SerbianLad on November 27, 2023, 10:13:27 PM

Quote from: demeant0r on November 27, 2023, 10:07:06 PMI feel so relieved! Great performance from Iwobi and Cairney. What is up with Vini? He's done this several times this season where he just unnecessarily instigates something.

Vini was great in preseason and was okay in his first few matches, but recently he has become a red card waiting to happen and offers next to nothing going forward. Raul is also very poor. I really hope Muniz comes back soon as he offers by far the most out of those three, in my opinon.

On the game, in the first half, I thought we had both good and bad moments and a draw was a fair result at half time. I thought we were the better team in the second half and deserved the win. Bar a few big defensive mistakes, we were pretty good.

I'd swap Palhinha for Reed, Tete for Castagne and Tosin for Ream in the next game for me.

I think those changes should clearly be made and then we should look a lot more solid. My big issue is who on earth Marco plays up front?

I see no reason for Castagne to be dropped, and why not play Bobby,D.R up front, at least he will be a bit lively.

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 27, 2023, 10:07:00 PMWell we take the result but Vinicius should not be considered as a player we should use. Frankly he could have been sent off twice in his last few appearances. I will need to see the penalties but the opinion is that out of three given tonight only the Wolves one was clear.

Still we have had the luck of decisions tonight for the first time in some time. Against a Wolves side who are coming into form. I will take the points over the performance. But tonight does nothing to ease the doubt over our play. But players are coming back from injury. Which is a plus and three points is a big bonus.

Thought Wilson's was a stone wall in one. Others looked a bit iffy.

Too soon to call time on Tim 'Reeeeam' Ream.  For those that can remember, in 2015 when he arrived he was too slow then and clearly not up to the job.  Despite a few disasters along the way he has shown amazing resliance and ablity to work at his game in overcoming the pace issue to become the main man.  Last season was his best ever and despite a poor performance I do not detect a sudden collapse.  No doubt he will be reflecting on his play last night and working on how to do it better.

With Ream, Robinson Jimenez playing on the other side of the pond in International matches prior to the Wolves match it appeared that all three struggled with their game. Would it be that Jet lag has a greater effect on players ability and concentration than we realise. Ream I believe particularly struggles after internationals and certainly Robinsons concentration was lacking last night. Jimenez didn't appear to be in the match at all and that his lack of playing for Mexico shows that he is probably past it for this league.

Quote from: Bill2 on November 28, 2023, 11:09:30 AM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 27, 2023, 10:07:00 PMWell we take the result but Vinicius should not be considered as a player we should use. Frankly he could have been sent off twice in his last few appearances. I will need to see the penalties but the opinion is that out of three given tonight only the Wolves one was clear.

Still we have had the luck of decisions tonight for the first time in some time. Against a Wolves side who are coming into form. I will take the points over the performance. But tonight does nothing to ease the doubt over our play. But players are coming back from injury. Which is a plus and three points is a big bonus.

Thought Wilson's was a stone wall in one. Others looked a bit iffy.

He looked as though he was already collapsing before the "challenge". Not sure what contact there was for TC to fall like he'd been shot by a snipe either.

Poor performance in a VAR assisted win. Can't take any positives other than we can trust Willian on pens.

Quote from: alfie on November 28, 2023, 11:06:16 AM

Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2023, 10:18:33 PM

Quote from: SerbianLad on November 27, 2023, 10:13:27 PM

Quote from: demeant0r on November 27, 2023, 10:07:06 PMI feel so relieved! Great performance from Iwobi and Cairney. What is up with Vini? He's done this several times this season where he just unnecessarily instigates something.

Vini was great in preseason and was okay in his first few matches, but recently he has become a red card waiting to happen and offers next to nothing going forward. Raul is also very poor. I really hope Muniz comes back soon as he offers by far the most out of those three, in my opinon.

On the game, in the first half, I thought we had both good and bad moments and a draw was a fair result at half time. I thought we were the better team in the second half and deserved the win. Bar a few big defensive mistakes, we were pretty good.

I'd swap Palhinha for Reed, Tete for Castagne and Tosin for Ream in the next game for me.

I think those changes should clearly be made and then we should look a lot more solid. My big issue is who on earth Marco plays up front?

I see no reason for Castagne to be dropped, and why not play Bobby,D.R up front, at least he will be a bit lively.

Agree about Castagne - I think Tete is an exceptional defender but Castagne plays further forward for Belgium. Could he play alongside Joao instead of Reed?

Perry Geyton
[/quote]
Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,
[/quote]

I'm a huge Tim Ream fan but the penalty was not his only mistake last night.

When Hwang ran through the middle in the first half after a wayward pass from Reed, Ream was slow to get across/react and (rightly) chose to pull out of a challenge to avoid a possible red card. A quicker player would have covered in time to make a clean challenge.

In the second half Ream lost possession by the touch line right near the half way line. Wolves countered down our left side and only an excellent last ditch covering tackle by Castagne prevented a tap-in for Wolves.

As I say, love Tim and Silva won't drop him for the foreseeable future I imagine BUT I'm keen to see a pairing of Bassey and Diop, or Tosin if he re-signs and gets back to his best form

Quote from: alfie link=msg=1466790
I see no reason for Castagne to be dropped, and why not play Bobby,D.R up front, at least he will be a bit lively.


/quote]

Brighton away last season was proof enough that BDR up top and central is NOT the answer, unfortunately.

who voted for lukic?  ::cry::

Quote from: Chutney on November 28, 2023, 12:40:34 PMwho voted for lukic?  ::cry::

Mrs Lukic...

Quote from: Hatch007 on November 28, 2023, 12:30:55 PM

Quote from: alfie link=msg=1466790
I see no reason for Castagne to be dropped, and why not play Bobby,D.R up front, at least he will be a bit lively.


/quote]

Brighton away last season was proof enough that BDR up top and central is NOT the answer, unfortunately.

He is not the answer, but until January we cannot do anything, so why not, he will certainly be more active than Raul and Vinci.

Quote from: Chutney on November 28, 2023, 12:40:34 PMwho voted for lukic?  ::cry::

No disrespect to them, but Lukic and Reed have no business getting any votes and both have one. One played for about 10 minutes and showed nothing,the other was one of our worst players yesterday in my opinion.

Quote from: alfie on November 28, 2023, 11:06:16 AMI see no reason for Castagne to be dropped, and why not play Bobby,D.R up front, at least he will be a bit lively.

I think he has been pretty good, but Tete is far better defensively and offers as much, if not more on the other end of the pitch too (people forget only TAA had more assists last season when it comes to rbs and offered a lot even besides assists).

Quote from: Hatch007 on November 28, 2023, 12:18:21 PMPerry Geyton

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,
[/quote]

I'm a huge Tim Ream fan but the penalty was not his only mistake last night.

When Hwang ran through the middle in the first half after a wayward pass from Reed, Ream was slow to get across/react and (rightly) chose to pull out of a challenge to avoid a possible red card. A quicker player would have covered in time to make a clean challenge.

In the second half Ream lost possession by the touch line right near the half way line. Wolves countered down our left side and only an excellent last ditch covering tackle by Castagne prevented a tap-in for Wolves.

As I say, love Tim and Silva won't drop him for the foreseeable future I imagine BUT I'm keen to see a pairing of Bassey and Diop, or Tosin if he re-signs and gets back to his best form
[/quote]I'm not a huge Tim Ream fan, though I respect his character and marvel at the Indian Summer to his career that has been carved out by sheer hard work.  He's a fine man.

But last night featured a series of simple plays where his deficiencies were exploited by opposition who were good, but not amongst the very best in the division.  Even with the opposition we beat, I don't see starting players taking the field who show such targetable deficiencies.

Football only works as a meritocracy. Twenty five in a squad and only eleven can start.  Nothing personal.  With fitness problems improving, if we don't pick our two best centre backs we deserve everything we get.  Right now, there's 19 teams hoping to see him in the starting line up next time we meet.

I did not expect to win. I am still getting over the 9-0 at Molyneux back in 1959. We now have a proper penalty taker, TC's tackle that led to the 3rd goal was phenomenal, probably the best he has ever made and the whole team was battling for the win at the end, I like to see team spirit hard at it. For once we got some breaks with VAR. A much needed win and a good display against a good side.  ::scarf::  ::thumb:: 

Quote from: SP on November 27, 2023, 10:04:51 PM10 points clear of the drop zone.

Last year after round 13 we were only 8 points clear.

TC.  Calming influence in midfield, always needed at any level you play at.

Thought both penalties were justified, Cairney played the ball onto the defender so clear penalty. Wilson's was also a penalty, don't understand what took VAR so long to make the decision. Thought Ream was ok last night but he did look as though he was still affected by jet lag. In the first half when Ream was playing out from the back he seemed reluctant to play the easy ball to Robinson who was in acres of space and this happened a few times.Considering the success we had early on from attacks which included the goal I thought we missed a trick there.

Quote from: Motspur Park on November 28, 2023, 07:18:26 AM

Quote from: Matt10 on November 28, 2023, 12:13:53 AM

Quote from: Motspur Park on November 27, 2023, 11:44:03 PMThought our passing was slick and crisp at times, but Wolves had a better game plan. They pressed our defence and we were lucky quite a few times.
Cairney was man of the match for me, but playing with Jiminez was like playing with 10 men. We needed to press them like they pressed us. Regardless of Vini's over zealousness, he had little time to make an impact and at least had a presence up front where we had none with Raul.
We are a few players short of being mid table, so results like tonight give us a bit of much needed breathing space.
As for the penalties, I couldn't believe VAR took so long to concur with the original decision. Regardless of whether the Wolves player touched the ball, Tom played it with his right and was heading further into the box. It was a foul and a definite penalty. Likewise theirs and ditto with Wilson. I honestly couldn't believe the comments from the ridiculous Smith. We are not judging by past standards of penalties... we are judging by today and those decisions are given week in week out.
COYW.

This Raul slating is just always unfounded to me. Do you not see him hold the ball up constantly? He doesn't lose possession often, maybe twice the entire match. However, his winning the ball is so significant to our attacks. Just compare him to Vini and you'll see just how bad Vini is compared to him.

The issue I'm starting to have with Raul is he is just too unselfish and too nice. He wants to get rid of the ball to safety as soon as he can. He is trying to play too many slick 1-2 passes. To say it's like playing 10 men though is just far off the mark and I'd suggest rewatching the match, watching Jimenez specifically and see if the same statement comes back.

Be assured I am not scapegoating him but when you say his hold up play.....when? The game just passed him by. Admittedly, a tough ask against their backs, but when we went forward, there was no striker to seek out. He was nowhere to be seen. Jogging around and seemed disinterested. We do not have options at the moment but I seriously cannot believe we scouted this guy. He may suit a different style of attack to what we provide but whatever the question, he isn't the answer.

To be honest, I am not sure why we recruited him as well. However, if Silva says his strikers aren't just goal scorers and they do so much more - then Raul fits that bill. Every time I get into this topic, it's as if I'm saying we don't need another striker - that could not be further from the truth. I am being realistic though in watching him play and I am not ignoring his good and bad.

Hold up play is simply maintaining possession and letting others into the attack. That is priority number one for our striker in the sequence of the attack. Note I said sequence, not the endpoint, so there has to be a beginning. Raul does this the best of our strikers - and it was shown in the Wolves match:

Ironically, the first one he controls, but can't maintain control with Bueno right on him:
https://streamable.com/uvaycy

If Raul doesn't put a body on Kelman, Iwobi's shot could be blocked here. If he was disinterested, he wouldn't even bother.
https://streamable.com/378oct

Chance here with some extra effort trying to pull the ball back to Andreas, but gets blocked/saved.
https://streamable.com/27wa1a

It's basic work, but this is hold-up play because it starts the sequence to a move that didn't finish correctly due to the final ball.
https://streamable.com/8zr0tz

Shows to the ball and finds a pass back. This is how we overload that left side to free up the opposite, with a better pass and control, we're able to switch it as Raul has dragged Bueno out of position.
https://streamable.com/j5ezli

The little flicks that I am not a fan of, but I know he's trying to find Iwobi. Raul doesn't give up and takes out Doherty, no foul called though.
https://streamable.com/43csql

He stays wide so we have enough bodies to drag out of position, so we can then switch the play - your basic overloading. In the end, this is the only 1 of 2 times he had time to turn and face goal and take on someone 1v1. He tried, but was doubled up and couldn't make anything of it.
https://streamable.com/trrs2v

Again, hold-up play in the most basic nature. Bueno is all over him again, and he does well to keep possession.
https://streamable.com/1i5iai

Same again, but a bit more difficult first touch, and does great to take it out of the air and keep his body in front of Bueno. Would rather he get on his horse right away and not complain of course.
https://streamable.com/gj64qv

This is where he's annoyed me. The only other time he gets to face goal, and he tries a complicated cross ball to either Iwobi or Andreas, which is promptly cut out. Being unselfish to a fault here, and he needs to just have a go at goal.
https://streamable.com/oef79i

Good effort here to collect the wayward pass from Wolves, and start another sequence of possession.
https://streamable.com/9ijema

The run off the ball drags Bueno out of position and opens up a shot for Iwobi. Basic, but necessary.
https://streamable.com/0n7b0h

It's subtle, but a good pass back allows Iwobi's momentum to switch the point of attack.
https://streamable.com/wsz5fs

Moving into a good position here to drag Kilman, which works as Raul's flicked header sets up Andreas, before TC's shot is blocked.
https://streamable.com/zxert4

Not the best first touch, but controls it enough and we keep possession.
https://streamable.com/mogj0d

GJ says it's not a good pass back to Andreas, but it's clear that Andreas gets two-handed pushed out of the way, so the return pass is never going to reach him as he's off the path.
https://streamable.com/uqqdhd

Brilliant soft touch that reaches TC in-stride and had the potential to start a good counter.
https://streamable.com/q2ok76

Completely dragged Bueno out of position and created chaos for him to get tangled up with Toti - thus allowing Iwobi's chance. Last involvement of the match for Raul.
https://streamable.com/aw9yjd

I hope that helps provide insight into my position with Raul. As a coach, a former college player, and a striker as well, these involvements cannot go unnoticed by me. He rarely loses the ball, and he consistently holds it up and then finds ways for us to keep possession. He's what we have at the moment, and until someone else wants to play striker for Fulham, I don't think we should discredit the crucial positive moments that he supplies by providing blanket statements and pushing narratives that don't line up. Not you specifically at all, but more so just the general narrative when it comes to Raul.

For the record, I 1000% want a new striker in January. I think that's okay to say because it's not tearing someone else down, it's simply wanting another potential goalscorer - because that is what is going to matter at the very end of these sequences.

Quote from: bencher on November 28, 2023, 07:22:07 AM

Quote from: Matt10 on November 28, 2023, 05:15:01 AM

Quote from: brightster on November 28, 2023, 04:57:52 AM

Quote from: Matt10 on November 27, 2023, 11:16:05 PMTC for me without a doubt. We needed goals, and he was in the thick of it all. Have to give kudos to Silva for using this set-up of some strong possession players in Willian-TC-AP-Iwobi ; that is by far the strongest we have looked on the ball.

I thought I was the only one that thought that, he played well tonight, holds the ball very well, hardly gave it away, his first touch is very good, agree likes the little flicks and one set up Iwobi who made the keeper save well when through on goal.
My only criticism if you can call it that is wish he would get in the box more!

100% agree. He needs to get into the box as soon as he can because he tends to hold the ball up in deeper areas, and even some wide spots, then doesn't race into the box.

I just don't get how that hard work to hold onto the ball, or to get a crucial touch, that keeps or starts our momentum in possession is completely nullified just because he's not scoring or having chances. It's this same old boring narrative that fans create themselves as if that's doing work against the team. In fact, Silva says strikers in his system do more than just score goals. So if our striker is doing something helpful, but can't score goals, it should be seen as that.

If you compare Raul's output to his former teammate Hwang, he comes off pretty unfavourably. Hwang was a bit of a menace while the Wolves CBs looked pretty comfortable against Raul. He just seems to coast, doesn't do anything with any real intensity. When he had a chance to dribble at the defence he looked like he didn't believe he could get through. Air-shot in the first minute when he should probably have scored.

I can't make that direct comparison when we have a lone striker and they have two forwards. Completely different profiles of Raul vs Hwang as well. You're right, he looked unsure with his 1v1, but in the 30 or so touches, that was a sequence that rarely came about. Regardless, I agree, he should be more aggressive. At least he drove into the box, for once, and tried something - who knows what could have happened. I appreciate him trying something further in tackling Lemina even if it ended up being a lost cause.

The air-shot was the issue I've had with him being unselfish. He can at least try to take a shot, even if the ball is slightly behind him, but instead tries to flick it for a teammate.

Voted for Iwobi.  Felt he was most impactful player in the side.  Scored a nice opening goal and almost had a second, a great keeper save preventing.  Always lively on the ball, made a number of nice cuts from the wing into middle of pitch, creating offensive opportunities. 

Honorable mention to Cairney, Cantstandya, Robinson, Bassey, Willian.

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on November 28, 2023, 08:28:50 AM

Quote from: perry geyton on November 28, 2023, 04:08:41 AM

Quote from: KJS on November 27, 2023, 10:05:41 PM

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:04:23 PMTom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

I do think Tim Ream is struggling at the moment 😕

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,

He had an overall decent game but his lack of pace gave him a yellow card, which could very easily have become a red with the penalty situation. It would have been harsh, but Ream's lack of pace is a problem, especially without Palhinha to protect out back four,

Ream should have seen red either way for the penalty incident. He was last man when Hwang was clear on goal. Outside the box that's a straight red. Inside the box it's a penalty and his second yellow. Luckily I don't think VAR can add a yellow in that situation but had they judged it to be outside the box it should have been straight red.

Old fogeys like me have to realise that the game has changed and is changing. I read and am reading all the views on the penalties. There is now no doubt in my mind that VAR has encouraged the attacking players in the area to leave their trailing leg dangling in the hope it is caught by the defender. The Fulham penalties were very much of that ilk. Playing in the area at speed and leaving a trailing leg in the hope that it is touched by a defender.

I see it week in and week out and that is the way the game is now. Also interested that Ream has come in for polite criticism. May be interesting to see Bassey play in his preferred side with the pick of any the other three alongside him. 

Quote from: bog on November 28, 2023, 02:00:17 PMI did not expect to win. I am still getting over the 9-0 at Molyneux back in 1959. We now have a proper penalty taker, TC's tackle that led to the 3rd goal was phenomenal, probably the best he has ever made and the whole team was battling for the win at the end, I like to see team spirit hard at it. For once we got some breaks with VAR. A much needed win and a good display against a good side.  ::scarf::  ::thumb:: 

Me too! I was at primary school in Hammersmith and remember that result. How could my hero, Macedo, let in 9 goals??

Quote from: Hatch007 on November 28, 2023, 12:18:21 PMPerry Geyton

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,
[/quote]

I'm a huge Tim Ream fan but the penalty was not his only mistake last night.

When Hwang ran through the middle in the first half after a wayward pass from Reed, Ream was slow to get across/react and (rightly) chose to pull out of a challenge to avoid a possible red card. A quicker player would have covered in time to make a clean challenge.

In the second half Ream lost possession by the touch line right near the half way line. Wolves countered down our left side and only an excellent last ditch covering tackle by Castagne prevented a tap-in for Wolves.

As I say, love Tim and Silva won't drop him for the foreseeable future I imagine BUT I'm keen to see a pairing of Bassey and Diop, or Tosin if he re-signs and gets back to his best form
[/quote]


Fair enough and that day is inevitably coming considering his age, for me tho he's still our best center back, all players make mistakes here and there but for some reason Tim seems to get knit picked for em more then others, I can also reflect on all the things he did brilliantly last night,
Personally Diop frightens me at times on the ball

Tim most certainly does not get nit picked more than others here...in fact it's actually the opposite (in my opinion this is because of his long tenure with the club/popularity and the fact expectations were so low for him after our previous relegation seasons in PL). The fact that so many are starting to question his position in the starting 11 suggests just how rough he's looked so far this season.

Quote from: btffc on November 28, 2023, 03:44:12 PM

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on November 28, 2023, 08:28:50 AM

Quote from: perry geyton on November 28, 2023, 04:08:41 AM

Quote from: KJS on November 27, 2023, 10:05:41 PM

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:04:23 PMTom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

I do think Tim Ream is struggling at the moment 😕

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,

He had an overall decent game but his lack of pace gave him a yellow card, which could very easily have become a red with the penalty situation. It would have been harsh, but Ream's lack of pace is a problem, especially without Palhinha to protect out back four,

Ream should have seen red either way for the penalty incident. He was last man when Hwang was clear on goal. Outside the box that's a straight red. Inside the box it's a penalty and his second yellow. Luckily I don't think VAR can add a yellow in that situation but had they judged it to be outside the box it should have been straight red.

It's no longer an automatic red card for being last man and it hasn't been since 2016

Quote from: Deeping_white on November 28, 2023, 07:45:33 PM

Quote from: btffc on November 28, 2023, 03:44:12 PM

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on November 28, 2023, 08:28:50 AM

Quote from: perry geyton on November 28, 2023, 04:08:41 AM

Quote from: KJS on November 27, 2023, 10:05:41 PM

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:04:23 PMTom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

I do think Tim Ream is struggling at the moment 😕

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,

He had an overall decent game but his lack of pace gave him a yellow card, which could very easily have become a red with the penalty situation. It would have been harsh, but Ream's lack of pace is a problem, especially without Palhinha to protect out back four,

Ream should have seen red either way for the penalty incident. He was last man when Hwang was clear on goal. Outside the box that's a straight red. Inside the box it's a penalty and his second yellow. Luckily I don't think VAR can add a yellow in that situation but had they judged it to be outside the box it should have been straight red.

It's no longer an automatic red card for being last man and it hasn't been since 2016

It's an automatic yellow if it is in the box and Ream was on a yellow so he would have gotten his second yellow and been sent off.

Quote from: btffc on November 28, 2023, 07:47:20 PM

Quote from: Deeping_white on November 28, 2023, 07:45:33 PM

Quote from: btffc on November 28, 2023, 03:44:12 PM

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on November 28, 2023, 08:28:50 AM

Quote from: perry geyton on November 28, 2023, 04:08:41 AM

Quote from: KJS on November 27, 2023, 10:05:41 PM

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:04:23 PMTom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

I do think Tim Ream is struggling at the moment 😕

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,

He had an overall decent game but his lack of pace gave him a yellow card, which could very easily have become a red with the penalty situation. It would have been harsh, but Ream's lack of pace is a problem, especially without Palhinha to protect out back four,

Ream should have seen red either way for the penalty incident. He was last man when Hwang was clear on goal. Outside the box that's a straight red. Inside the box it's a penalty and his second yellow. Luckily I don't think VAR can add a yellow in that situation but had they judged it to be outside the box it should have been straight red.

It's no longer an automatic red card for being last man and it hasn't been since 2016

It's an automatic yellow if it is in the box and Ream was on a yellow so he would have gotten his second yellow and been sent off.

No it's not - only a yellow if it's judged to be a DOGSO incident by the referee (which in this case it wasn't since Hwang wasn't in control of the ball, going away from goal on an angle and Robinson was also there on the cover), with official guidance below:

DENYING A GOAL OR AN OBVIOUS GOAL-SCORING OPPORTUNITY (DOGSO)

Where a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offender is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play the ball or a challenge for the ball; in all other circumstances (e.g. holding, pulling, pushing, no possibility to play the ball etc.), the offending player must be sent off. The following must be considered:

distance between the offence and the goal
general direction of the play
likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
location and number of defenders

Quote from: Deeping_white on November 28, 2023, 07:52:03 PM

Quote from: btffc on November 28, 2023, 07:47:20 PM

Quote from: Deeping_white on November 28, 2023, 07:45:33 PM

Quote from: btffc on November 28, 2023, 03:44:12 PM

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on November 28, 2023, 08:28:50 AM

Quote from: perry geyton on November 28, 2023, 04:08:41 AM

Quote from: KJS on November 27, 2023, 10:05:41 PM

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:04:23 PMTom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

I do think Tim Ream is struggling at the moment 😕

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,

He had an overall decent game but his lack of pace gave him a yellow card, which could very easily have become a red with the penalty situation. It would have been harsh, but Ream's lack of pace is a problem, especially without Palhinha to protect out back four,

Ream should have seen red either way for the penalty incident. He was last man when Hwang was clear on goal. Outside the box that's a straight red. Inside the box it's a penalty and his second yellow. Luckily I don't think VAR can add a yellow in that situation but had they judged it to be outside the box it should have been straight red.

It's no longer an automatic red card for being last man and it hasn't been since 2016

It's an automatic yellow if it is in the box and Ream was on a yellow so he would have gotten his second yellow and been sent off.

No it's not - only a yellow if it's judged to be a DOGSO incident by the referee (which in this case it wasn't since Hwang wasn't in control of the ball, going away from goal on an angle and Robinson was also there on the cover), with official guidance below:

DENYING A GOAL OR AN OBVIOUS GOAL-SCORING OPPORTUNITY (DOGSO)

Where a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offender is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play the ball or a challenge for the ball; in all other circumstances (e.g. holding, pulling, pushing, no possibility to play the ball etc.), the offending player must be sent off. The following must be considered:

distance between the offence and the goal
general direction of the play
likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
location and number of defenders

I admit being totally blinkered when it comes to Fulham decisions but I cannot comprehend anybody other than Wolves fans (and their manager) suggesting that Ream should have been sent off or booked for that.

Have to admit, whilst cairney was impressive in his cameo start and clearly was the difference for our second goal, the one player I saw on the pitch that I felt made a huge difference was that of Harrison Reed, who we've dropped this season to try and accommodate other players.

He was always at wolves players heels, he played sensible but still relatively forward thinking and ambitious balls, was tenacious in the tackle and popped up in the right spots. I think we really need to bring him back in to the starting lineup alongside palhinha, I think the two of them work well.

I'd also put Iwobi on the right wing, Pereira through the middle, they both had some really decent interchanges with one another showing they may be forming a good understanding of how each other plays.

His pressure unsettled wolves and also meant that we were competitive higher up the pitch, giving out defence a bit more time to breathe and our attack more momentum.

My thoughts at least.

Reed was better in the second half but was quite poor in the first. He nearly gifted Wolves 2 goals. 

Quote from: Deeping_white on November 28, 2023, 07:52:03 PM

Quote from: btffc on November 28, 2023, 07:47:20 PM

Quote from: Deeping_white on November 28, 2023, 07:45:33 PM

Quote from: btffc on November 28, 2023, 03:44:12 PM

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on November 28, 2023, 08:28:50 AM

Quote from: perry geyton on November 28, 2023, 04:08:41 AM

Quote from: KJS on November 27, 2023, 10:05:41 PM

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:04:23 PMTom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

I do think Tim Ream is struggling at the moment 😕

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,

He had an overall decent game but his lack of pace gave him a yellow card, which could very easily have become a red with the penalty situation. It would have been harsh, but Ream's lack of pace is a problem, especially without Palhinha to protect out back four,

Ream should have seen red either way for the penalty incident. He was last man when Hwang was clear on goal. Outside the box that's a straight red. Inside the box it's a penalty and his second yellow. Luckily I don't think VAR can add a yellow in that situation but had they judged it to be outside the box it should have been straight red.

It's no longer an automatic red card for being last man and it hasn't been since 2016

It's an automatic yellow if it is in the box and Ream was on a yellow so he would have gotten his second yellow and been sent off.

No it's not - only a yellow if it's judged to be a DOGSO incident by the referee (which in this case it wasn't since Hwang wasn't in control of the ball, going away from goal on an angle and Robinson was also there on the cover), with official guidance below:

DENYING A GOAL OR AN OBVIOUS GOAL-SCORING OPPORTUNITY (DOGSO)

Where a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offender is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play the ball or a challenge for the ball; in all other circumstances (e.g. holding, pulling, pushing, no possibility to play the ball etc.), the offending player must be sent off. The following must be considered:

distance between the offence and the goal
general direction of the play
likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
location and number of defenders

even the co commentators get it wrong ie last man -must be a red. i heard micheal owen say that last season.

Quote from: General on November 28, 2023, 08:27:18 PMHave to admit, whilst cairney was impressive in his cameo start and clearly was the difference for our second goal, the one player I saw on the pitch that I felt made a huge difference was that of Harrison Reed, who we've dropped this season to try and accommodate other players.

He was always at wolves players heels, he played sensible but still relatively forward thinking and ambitious balls, was tenacious in the tackle and popped up in the right spots. I think we really need to bring him back in to the starting lineup alongside palhinha, I think the two of them work well.

I'd also put Iwobi on the right wing, Pereira through the middle, they both had some really decent interchanges with one another showing they may be forming a good understanding of how each other plays.

His pressure unsettled wolves and also meant that we were competitive higher up the pitch, giving out defence a bit more time to breathe and our attack more momentum.

My thoughts at least.

I thought Reed recovered from a very poor first half to be more solid in the second but I thought his his poor distribution and positioning was clear to see in the first half.

Quote from: Deeping_white on November 28, 2023, 07:52:03 PM

Quote from: btffc on November 28, 2023, 07:47:20 PM

Quote from: Deeping_white on November 28, 2023, 07:45:33 PM

Quote from: btffc on November 28, 2023, 03:44:12 PM

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on November 28, 2023, 08:28:50 AM

Quote from: perry geyton on November 28, 2023, 04:08:41 AM

Quote from: KJS on November 27, 2023, 10:05:41 PM

Quote from: Tabby on November 27, 2023, 10:04:23 PMTom Cairney showed his class this game.

Bassey very strong at CB this game. Wonder if him and Tosin/Diop will partner at some point.

I do think Tim Ream is struggling at the moment 😕

Your just saying that cos he gave away a penalty, other then that he was solid as usual today,,,,

He had an overall decent game but his lack of pace gave him a yellow card, which could very easily have become a red with the penalty situation. It would have been harsh, but Ream's lack of pace is a problem, especially without Palhinha to protect out back four,

Ream should have seen red either way for the penalty incident. He was last man when Hwang was clear on goal. Outside the box that's a straight red. Inside the box it's a penalty and his second yellow. Luckily I don't think VAR can add a yellow in that situation but had they judged it to be outside the box it should have been straight red.

It's no longer an automatic red card for being last man and it hasn't been since 2016

It's an automatic yellow if it is in the box and Ream was on a yellow so he would have gotten his second yellow and been sent off.

No it's not - only a yellow if it's judged to be a DOGSO incident by the referee (which in this case it wasn't since Hwang wasn't in control of the ball, going away from goal on an angle and Robinson was also there on the cover), with official guidance below:

DENYING A GOAL OR AN OBVIOUS GOAL-SCORING OPPORTUNITY (DOGSO)

Where a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offender is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play the ball or a challenge for the ball; in all other circumstances (e.g. holding, pulling, pushing, no possibility to play the ball etc.), the offending player must be sent off. The following must be considered:

distance between the offence and the goal
general direction of the play
likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
location and number of defenders

Hwang wasn't in control of the ball but as you state "likelihood of gaining control of the ball" must be considered and he was certain to gain control and get a shot off if not for the foul therefore it was a DOGSO and should have been a yellow. The ref got it wrong.

Quote from: Chi_FFC on November 28, 2023, 06:43:10 PMTim most certainly does not get nit picked more than others here...in fact it's actually the opposite (in my opinion this is because of his long tenure with the club/popularity and the fact expectations were so low for him after our previous relegation seasons in PL). The fact that so many are starting to question his position in the starting 11 suggests just how rough he's looked so far this season.

I would agree would this.

He is slowing down more4 and more, his legs just won't do it for him in todays game in the top league, though he has always had great positional sense inasmuch that he often can anticipate the flight of a ball, or a flat-top pass, but when that lets him down, or he hesitates when an oppo is close to him on the ball, then we see him giving away fouls, or worse.