Leno's decline

[Southcoastffc]

So, Andersen has, at least temporarily, passed the scapegoat baton to Leno.   

[Andy S]

I've watched football long enough to know that all keepers make mistakes. Some go through patches and
Drop balls etc etc. Leno has never made those kind of mistakes but may be he doesn't come for balls. Could that be managers instructions?
I don't think there has been an obvious deterioration so we should get behind the whole team and try to give our young team confidence. cOYW

[Woolly Mammoth]

He's been a brilliant keeper IMO
won us plenty of points

No idea where this hate is coming from

A true professional

Sorry, what hate?

ep, he's quite literally costing us goals, points and £130k a week been saying it for 2 years now.

Saying that he has performed well in friendlies in the main, but I do wish we'd prioritised a new keeper- they win you points single-handedly.


Looks relatively hateful to me to a man given everything IMO, classless

I have a lot of respect for Leno

I'm generally not a fan of bringing up a player's salary when criticizing them, but it's indisputable that over the past couple seasons Leno has cost us goals and points. That's not hate, just the truth.

Do people consider when strikers or indeed any player has a shot and misses could be costing us points, or is it solely the keeper, how about when a penalty is missed, costing us points ?.

I can see both sides of the debate, but Alfie makes a good point regarding a goalkeeper making a mistake and costing a goal and unfortunately it is magnified.
However as he has said when a striker misses a fairly easy chance, it can be easily forgotten, or at least put in to the back of your mind.
Having said that, I feel this is an important season for Leno and it could go either way.
I feel he would feel more comfortable if the players did not keep passing the ball back to him unnecessarily as unlike many other keepers he does not look reassuring with the ball at his feet, and under pressure the ball far too often ends up going for a throw on to the opposition.

[Woolly Mammoth]

So, Andersen has, at least temporarily, passed the scapegoat baton to Leno.   

Where did this escaped goat appear from ?

[Twig]

I've watched football long enough to know that all keepers make mistakes. Some go through patches and
Drop balls etc etc. Leno has never made those kind of mistakes but may be he doesn't come for balls. Could that be managers instructions?
I don't think there has been an obvious deterioration so we should get behind the whole team and try to give our young team confidence. cOYW

His stats show a very clear decline. I think it's a bit like wear on the brakes of your car. It happens gradually and you tend not to notice until you replace them.

[alfie]

I've watched football long enough to know that all keepers make mistakes. Some go through patches and
Drop balls etc etc. Leno has never made those kind of mistakes but may be he doesn't come for balls. Could that be managers instructions?
I don't think there has been an obvious deterioration so we should get behind the whole team and try to give our young team confidence. cOYW

His stats show a very clear decline. I think it's a bit like wear on the brakes of your car. It happens gradually and you tend not to notice until you replace them.

Stats do not tell the whole story though, if a defender makes a howler of an error, the ball goes in, then that stat shows a goal against the keeper, what about a very clear decline in team performance, outfield players not doing their jobs has a bearing on stats.

[cookieg]

I've watched football long enough to know that all keepers make mistakes. Some go through patches and
Drop balls etc etc. Leno has never made those kind of mistakes but may be he doesn't come for balls. Could that be managers instructions?
I don't think there has been an obvious deterioration so we should get behind the whole team and try to give our young team confidence. cOYW

His stats show a very clear decline. I think it's a bit like wear on the brakes of your car. It happens gradually and you tend not to notice until you replace them.

Stats do not tell the whole story though, if a defender makes a howler of an error, the ball goes in, then that stat shows a goal against the keeper, what about a very clear decline in team performance, outfield players not doing their jobs has a bearing on stats.

At the end of the day people can show stats to justify whatever point they are trying to prove. For me stop the shots and crosses and we will concede less goals.

[Woolly Mammoth]

Statistics say that 1 out of 3 people in a relationship are unfaithful.

[Woolly Mammoth]

I am not a fan of statistics for the following valid reasons.

1. Cherry-picking data.

2. Using percentages without context.

3. Misleading averages.

4.  Small or biased samples.

5. Confusing correlation with causation.

[Chi_FFC]

Nonsense, to use your word.
The stats that started this thread show where he ranks amongst other Premier League goalkeepers. Nothing more.
To actually show that he's been the weak link in Fulham's defence the past two seasons, would require an entirely different analysis, which would include Fulham's total defensive performance vis-a-vis the other teams in the Premier League.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

You clearly don't understand how the stats being discussed here work. As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, these stats actually control for the quality of defense in front of the GK and (to simplify things a bit) tell us how a GK has performed (at least from a shot stopping perspective) based on the quality of shots he has faced. And what they tell us about Leno and Fulham is that the defense in front of him has been pretty darn good the past few seasons. Top half of the PL quality. Leno on the other hand has been very poor (at least from a shot stopping perspective).

To wit, in 24-25 Fulham's defense in front of the GK was 9th in shots on target allowed and 6th in xGA allowed in the PL. Last season it was T4 in shots on target allowed and 10th in xGA. However from a GK perspective we've been as a team (and Bernd is the only GK who has played a PL minute for us over the past two seasons) 17th in advanced shot stopping. Simply put, he's been the weak link in our defense the past two seasons.

Do people consider when strikers or indeed any player has a shot and misses could be costing us points, or is it solely the keeper, how about when a penalty is missed, costing us points ?.

Can't speak for others but I absolutely analyze our performance all over the pitch to see where our strengths and weaknesses lie. And last season two areas of the pitch stand out as weaknesses...striker and GK. Our two strikers had a combined non penalty XG of close to 12 yet only managed a combined 6 npg. That's very poor. However I didn't see a reason to discuss it here given this is a thread about Leno's own poor performance.

[Berserker]

As we have a new manager we may have a new goal keeper coach. None of us know what instructions Silva gave Leno in his style of play.  Maybe Alvaro will have a different plan for our goal keeper and Leno will be coached and play differently.
I must be honest and say I've never played football so not sure if keepers just play one way all their career, or change for good or bad.

[alfie]

Nonsense, to use your word.
The stats that started this thread show where he ranks amongst other Premier League goalkeepers. Nothing more.
To actually show that he's been the weak link in Fulham's defence the past two seasons, would require an entirely different analysis, which would include Fulham's total defensive performance vis-a-vis the other teams in the Premier League.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

You clearly don't understand how the stats being discussed here work. As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, these stats actually control for the quality of defense in front of the GK and (to simplify things a bit) tell us how a GK has performed (at least from a shot stopping perspective) based on the quality of shots he has faced. And what they tell us about Leno and Fulham is that the defense in front of him has been pretty darn good the past few seasons. Top half of the PL quality. Leno on the other hand has been very poor (at least from a shot stopping perspective).

To wit, in 24-25 Fulham's defense in front of the GK was 9th in shots on target allowed and 6th in xGA allowed in the PL. Last season it was T4 in shots on target allowed and 10th in xGA. However from a GK perspective we've been as a team (and Bernd is the only GK who has played a PL minute for us over the past two seasons) 17th in advanced shot stopping. Simply put, he's been the weak link in our defense the past two seasons.

Do people consider when strikers or indeed any player has a shot and misses could be costing us points, or is it solely the keeper, how about when a penalty is missed, costing us points ?.

Can't speak for others but I absolutely analyze our performance all over the pitch to see where we're our strengths and weaknesses lie. And last season two areas of the pitch stand out as weaknesses...striker and GK. Our two strikers had a combined non penalty XG of close to 12 yet only managed a combined 6 npg. That's very poor. However I didn't see a reason to discuss it here given this is a thread about Leno's own poor performance.

Fair enough if you don't think it's relevant.

[Twig]

Nonsense, to use your word.
The stats that started this thread show where he ranks amongst other Premier League goalkeepers. Nothing more.
To actually show that he's been the weak link in Fulham's defence the past two seasons, would require an entirely different analysis, which would include Fulham's total defensive performance vis-a-vis the other teams in the Premier League.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

You clearly don't understand how the stats being discussed here work. As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, these stats actually control for the quality of defense in front of the GK and (to simplify things a bit) tell us how a GK has performed (at least from a shot stopping perspective) based on the quality of shots he has faced. And what they tell us about Leno and Fulham is that the defense in front of him has been pretty darn good the past few seasons. Top half of the PL quality. Leno on the other hand has been very poor (at least from a shot stopping perspective).

To wit, in 24-25 Fulham's defense in front of the GK was 9th in shots on target allowed and 6th in xGA allowed in the PL. Last season it was T4 in shots on target allowed and 10th in xGA. However from a GK perspective we've been as a team (and Bernd is the only GK who has played a PL minute for us over the past two seasons) 17th in advanced shot stopping. Simply put, he's been the weak link in our defense the past two seasons.

Do people consider when strikers or indeed any player has a shot and misses could be costing us points, or is it solely the keeper, how about when a penalty is missed, costing us points ?.

Can't speak for others but I absolutely analyze our performance all over the pitch to see where we're our strengths and weaknesses lie. And last season two areas of the pitch stand out as weaknesses...striker and GK. Our two strikers had a combined non penalty XG of close to 12 yet only managed a combined 6 npg. That's very poor. However I didn't see a reason to discuss it here given this is a thread about Leno's own poor performance.

This.

[cwindsor]

You clearly don't understand how the stats being discussed here work.

I understand them perfectly well. Apologies, it's just that I don't blindly believe them.

[Twig]

You clearly don't understand how the stats being discussed here work.

I understand them perfectly well. Apologies, it's just that I don't blindly believe them.

You don't believe the stats? That is to say you think they are untrue?

[McBrideOfFrankenstein]

I think both views have been pretty clearly expressed. Not sure there is a  a need to needle each other about the understanding of statistics haha

My view is that Leno had a down year last year but that it's well within his capabilities to rebound.

[Jimmy Hill]

Leno will be player of the sesson. Top pro lucky to have him.

[C Block]

3 Pages of people moaning about Bernd Leno, pound for pound one of the best signings our club has ever made,
And certainly the least of our problems, I'm sure some of you would love to see the ball go through his legs on Monday just so you can tell us all "told you so"
If any of you contributed to this thread in a negative way, please do yourself a favour and watch the Brentford v Spurs game, all I'll say is thank God we've got Leno and not Kinsky, now that's a keeper that deserves 3 pages on a forum.

[Jim©]

3 Pages of people moaning about Bernd Leno, pound for pound one of the best signings our club has ever made,
And certainly the least of our problems, I'm sure some of you would love to see the ball go through his legs on Monday just so you can tell us all "told you so"
If any of you contributed to this thread in a negative way, please do yourself a favour and watch the Brentford v Spurs game, all I'll say is thank God we've got Leno and not Kinsky, now that's a keeper that deserves 3 pages on a forum.

What are you on about? Aren't we allowed to discuss a player that is letting us down in quite a few of our opinions (and backed up by stats)?
I'd be gutted if that happens on Monday and hope he delivers and carries on his decent pre season form. I don't want to see him being the 18th best keeper in terms of saves made again.

[cwindsor]

You clearly don't understand how the stats being discussed here work.

I understand them perfectly well. Apologies, it's just that I don't blindly believe them.

You don't believe the stats? That is to say you think they are untrue?

Heresy, I know. It's 1984 all over again. Cheers!