NFR: Racism in Europe

[Jambo]

We (england) are fighting a lost cause when it comes to this.  People need to realise that England is by far the most multi cultural country if not only in Europe but the World.  We have been brought up to accept and embrace different backgrounds, cultures and colours of skin, that's not to say there is no racism in the UK but its safe to say its very much the minority.  Its taken decades to get where we are.  England not going to Serbia for matches, Serbia getting banned from competitions is not going to change the culture of a nation.  I'm not sure what you can do in all fairness but when you have the president of the country and the manager saying that it was Danny Roses fault and there was no racism, whats the point??   

[Northern Cottager]

They seem to of completely passed the book. Unfortunately it seems that a lot of countries will not challenge their views and this is something we will have to tolerate and not take for granted in our own country. We've done well to get to where we are and its very good that it is only the minority that needs stamping out, shame we have to accept that other countries aren't willing to join us and the players will no doubt have to tolerate it for many generations.

[Lighthouse]

Humans are tribal and so will always find ways to divide themselves up against others. One of the reasons I am no fan of International sports. If it isn't colour or sex it is physical appearance. In this Country we hide behind political correctness which puts on the veneer of good behaviour. But sadly there will always be an undercurrent of abuse against others.

Is there an answer to it? No but there MUST be a way to make people respect others whatever they look like. Sadly tribal Human Beings are the hardest to communicate with.

[Mr_Moon]

Are you seriously using the demographic of the football fan, particularly one from Serbia, to make a sweeping statement about Europe?

[sipwell]

Harsh sentences help to recreate a society. Belgium was not exactly the most 'racist-free' country of Europe in the seventies and eighties (a lot of swear words in Flemish are essentially linked to nationalities/races) but stiff penal and financial sentences have already pushed the mainstream of the population into accepting differences and considering them to be as Belgian/Flemish as we are. You will always have a minority which causes havoc (in Britain as well) and the international organizations (UEFA, FIFA) will be able to differentiate between structural or incidental racism...

[cottage cheese]

So really to answer your question, what is the point in pointing the finger at Serbia,  when a country likes ours that does promote racial awareness and accepting the minority still have the likes of the BNP,EDF,EDL etc...  

I find it staggering how a couple of idiots at that match have suddenly made you accuse the whole of Serbia and eastern europe as a problem.

Eastern Europe is just as bad as here mate in some walks of life.

[Rupert]

So really to answer your question, what is the point in pointing the finger at Serbia,  when a country likes ours that does promote racial awareness and accepting the minority still have the likes of the BNP,EDF,EDL etc...  

To risk broadening the topic here, surely if we accept the minority, we should also accept the existence of the BNP and associated extremist lunatics, or are we only supposed to accept minorities who we approve of? We can accept their existence and monitor them closely, and come down on them like a ton of bricks if they try to act on their beliefs, but thank God we DO have them, if only to remind us how despicable those people are.

The point of pointing the finger (do you see what I did, there?) at Serbia follows the same logic. The publicly expressed beliefs may or may not be widespread in Serbia, or the rest of the world (other countries may dispute that bit), the thing is, once they are openly displayed we can, and should, make it clear that we expect them to do something about it, and if they won't, then we ask UEFA to do something.

There is an internationally recognised standard of behaviour, which we and others have signed up to, if we can live up to it, so should others. I see nothing wrong with demanding that.

[CanadianCottager]

We (england) are fighting a lost cause when it comes to this.  People need to realise that England is by far the most multi cultural country if not only in Europe but the World.  

I think the sentiment is honest enough here, but statements like this are part of the problem. England is a wonderfully multicultural country but to claim a monopoly on cultural harmony is a bit disingenuous, it is undeniable that England is a nation with some serious ethnic tensions. Its not necessarily untrue that England is relatively enlightened in these matters, but by exaggerating and laying a false claim to moral supremacy it makes your attitude appear condescending and hypocritical to outsiders and weakens your authority to make such claims. I can understand your frustration, I don't want to come across as attacking England in any way, I just think that sweeping generalizations really don't help your case.

[cottage cheese]

So really to answer your question, what is the point in pointing the finger at Serbia,  when a country likes ours that does promote racial awareness and accepting the minority still have the likes of the BNP,EDF,EDL etc... 

To risk broadening the topic here, surely if we accept the minority, we should also accept the existence of the BNP and associated extremist lunatics, or are we only supposed to accept minorities who we approve of? We can accept their existence and monitor them closely, and come down on them like a ton of bricks if they try to act on their beliefs, but thank God we DO have them, if only to remind us how despicable those people are.

The point of pointing the finger (do you see what I did, there?) at Serbia follows the same logic. The publicly expressed beliefs may or may not be widespread in Serbia, or the rest of the world (other countries may dispute that bit), the thing is, once they are openly displayed we can, and should, make it clear that we expect them to do something about it, and if they won't, then we ask UEFA to do something.

There is an internationally recognised standard of behaviour, which we and others have signed up to, if we can live up to it, so should others. I see nothing wrong with demanding that.

the point I was making was that the Uk is exactly the same, yes we do not see it at football games thank god but it appears in everyday life at times.

One must realise that racism is not bound to just sport. Uefa,Fifa can only do so much. Banning a team wont do anything at all. Its the nature of society at the end of the day.

It is in the minority of ever country and as soon as it gets highlighted you have people making sweeping statements about Eastern Europe etc....Im sure there was a incident involving Bolton and Millwall a few weeks ago about  a player being racially abused? (or did i read it wrong?)

We can demand Uefa to step in but really what can they do? Its a really tough answer

[Jambo]

Are you seriously using the demographic of the football fan, particularly one from Serbia, to make a sweeping statement about Europe?

No I'm not.  Which is why I mentioned the president of their FA completely denying that there is a problem at all.  It was neither a sweeping statement about Europe but I will say that in terms of racial awareness and racism, due to the multi-cultural make up of the UK we have taken bigger strides than the rest of Europe and I'm not just talking about football.  NO, I'm not saying the whole of Europe is racist and NO I'm not I'm saying that there is no racists in England, far from it.  I was merely pointing out that racism is a much bigger problem in Europe and it is in Eastern Europe especially (someone tell me thats not the case) than it is here and until they recognise that themselves then there is not much the FA or letters from the PM can do about it.  So before everyone jumps to massive conclusions of my initial post (to late!!).  That was my point.  :028: :028:

[Rupert]

We do have racists in the UK, it is one of the qualities of a truly democratic society that ALL points of view are allowed to exist, are not driven underground where they can fester. When they turn belief into action, they are hit by the authorities.

In this specific case, where a sizable proportion of the Serbian crowd have racially abused non-Caucasian players, the least we can expect, in a civilised world, is the Serbian authorities to at least protest that it was not representative of thier people. Instead, they turn the spotlight on an England player for showing the Serbian crowd disrespect.
Now, I may be very old fashioned in this, but in my world respect is earned.
So, IF the Serbs announce they are appalled by their supporters behaviour (minority or majority) and announce steps to reduce this sort of thing in future, all is good. They can use video evidence to hand out lifetime bans to guilty supporters. It will not stop it, but it will start to stop it.
If the Serbs bury their heads, quite simply, they should be banned from international football for a period of time. When they return they are on probation, any repeat behaviour, they get banned again.
Can this work? Well, it hit our hooligan problem hard when Liverpool got all of us kicked out of Europe for half a decade, as it made our authorities do something about the problem.

[Jambo]

We do have racists in the UK, it is one of the qualities of a truly democratic society that ALL points of view are allowed to exist, are not driven underground where they can fester. When they turn belief into action, they are hit by the authorities.

In this specific case, where a sizable proportion of the Serbian crowd have racially abused non-Caucasian players, the least we can expect, in a civilised world, is the Serbian authorities to at least protest that it was not representative of thier people. Instead, they turn the spotlight on an England player for showing the Serbian crowd disrespect.
Now, I may be very old fashioned in this, but in my world respect is earned.
So, IF the Serbs announce they are appalled by their supporters behaviour (minority or majority) and announce steps to reduce this sort of thing in future, all is good. They can use video evidence to hand out lifetime bans to guilty supporters. It will not stop it, but it will start to stop it.
If the Serbs bury their heads, quite simply, they should be banned from international football for a period of time. When they return they are on probation, any repeat behaviour, they get banned again.
Can this work? Well, it hit our hooligan problem hard when Liverpool got all of us kicked out of Europe for half a decade, as it made our authorities do something about the problem.

Agreed

[Mr_Moon]

It's not as simple as banning the national team or fining the FA, we're talking about social acceptance which is something that can only be brought about by education or exposure. It's not exclusive to Serbia and thankfully there are plenty of educated Serbs who condemn this sort of behaviour. It doesn't help that football has been in great decline over the past two decades, so much so that only the hardcore (which goes hand in hand with extremists) regularly turn up and have a majority in the stands.

Enforcing bans on fans will be hard though, this isn't England or Germany with a fantastic infrastructure. What I'd like to see is FIFA/UEFA work hard with the FAs of offending countries so that they can effectively ban troublesome fans, even if it means that attendances will be low. The Serb FA shot themselves in the foot with that statement, it was a chance to form a relationship with not only UEFA, but also other nations' FAs. I expect that games will be played behind closed doors, there's no doubt about that although I wouldn't be surprised if Serbia was given a ban as they have a lot of baggage.

Fan culture needs to change. Promotion of the game as being family friendly could bring the crowds back. Both of the big two Belgrade clubs in Serbia average around 10k fans a game, which suggests that they could improve fan culture a lot given past attendances. Granted that the football in Serbia is dire, it will prove harder than floating ideas around on a football forum. International matches of all levels should be played in top stadiums with the infrastructure to allocate tickets over the internet so they know who is buying.

I don't want to ban the national teams as it's unfair on the other sides who weren't involved. It would be akin to banning English sides from Europe because of Liverpool at the end of the 80s. Banning the Serbs only add fuel to the fire, especially as we're talking about a nation here who is still bitter about political actions over the past two decades. Football is the best way to break down barriers, so I'd hope that we could figure out a solution that worked best to everyone's interests.


Re: The original post, Canadian Cottager sums up my sentiments perfectly.

[Mr_Moon]

Further, the countries which used to be part of Yugoslavia and the USSR have basically suffered from identity crises since Tito's death and the fall of communism respectively.

Those countries are very susceptible to any movements which give their lives meaning, normally taking the form of secular nationalism or religious fundamentalism. Yet due to the secular nature of the Marxism-Leninism communist ideology which had governed every aspect of their daily lives for decades, the religious fundamentalism was always never going to happen, unlike nationalism and an obsession with  an us and them attitude has become entrenched in certain sections of Eastern Europe as a whole.

The countries which people are always quick to point the finger at are relatively young in their current state. There is a lot of potential there so taking the ivory tower stance isn't helpful.

[Adam87]

I think one of the issues that plagues this country still and is a problem is that yes we are a multi ethnical society but there doesnt feel any togetherness amongst us in this country still. A typical example is when i was in college we had a massive canteen area where everyone would have lunch and hang out and each enthnicity would be sitting or standing in a different part of the college, never together which confused me and still saddens me to this day. It was so glaringly obvious and it happened every day. I still think that we are just different cultures living in one country. I dont think or feel there is a unity or loyalty to the country really. I dont want to get into this too much, as its a very touchy subject but unless people start to come together in this country and the secret feelings are lost amongst those that have them - im including every race here - then things wont improve.
Thats why i love sport though, brings everyone together and everyone is focused on sport, nothing else.

[cottage cheese]

look at john terry. We have our own issues at hand that still that need resolving. Thats why I jumped at Jambo a bit for mentioning Eastern Europe. It is bad and in no way to I condone those actions but I feel it is very hypocritical that we highlight other countries when we have it here in the news and media.

Its got to a point that even jason roberts has stepped in!

[Mr_Moon]

look at john terry. We have our own issues at hand that still that need resolving. Thats why I jumped at Jambo a bit for mentioning Eastern Europe. It is bad and in no way to I condone those actions but I feel it is very hypocritical that we highlight other countries when we have it here in the news and media.

Its got to a point that even jason roberts has stepped in!

John Terry, Suarez, Sol Campbell accusing the FA of racism, Liverpool fans, Millwall fans (vs Bolton), abuse on Twitter to James Vaughn from a Norwich fan. All from the past year that I can think of.

[AlFayedsChequebook]

look at john terry. We have our own issues at hand that still that need resolving. Thats why I jumped at Jambo a bit for mentioning Eastern Europe. It is bad and in no way to I condone those actions but I feel it is very hypocritical that we highlight other countries when we have it here in the news and media.

Its got to a point that even jason roberts has stepped in!

John Terry, Suarez, Sol Campbell accusing the FA of racism, Liverpool fans, Millwall fans (vs Bolton), abuse on Twitter to James Vaughn from a Norwich fan. All from the past year that I can think of.

So we shouldn't talk about racism because it happens in the UK?

hmm...

[cottage cheese]

look at john terry. We have our own issues at hand that still that need resolving. Thats why I jumped at Jambo a bit for mentioning Eastern Europe. It is bad and in no way to I condone those actions but I feel it is very hypocritical that we highlight other countries when we have it here in the news and media.

Its got to a point that even jason roberts has stepped in!

John Terry, Suarez, Sol Campbell accusing the FA of racism, Liverpool fans, Millwall fans (vs Bolton), abuse on Twitter to James Vaughn from a Norwich fan. All from the past year that I can think of.

So we shouldn't talk about racism because it happens in the UK?

hmm...

Hmm...looks like you have missed the point.

The point I am making is that the media reaction to Serbia has exploded. Consider this compared to the  attention Sordell recieved when he claimed to be racially abused at Millwall...

We have the problem just as bad here and I think personally it is hypocritical, ignorant and rude that threads are started with Racism in Eastern Europe when quite frankly the problem exists just as prominently here.

We should highlight it but not point out and label certain countries etcc...that does not solve anything

[AlFayedsChequebook]

look at john terry. We have our own issues at hand that still that need resolving. Thats why I jumped at Jambo a bit for mentioning Eastern Europe. It is bad and in no way to I condone those actions but I feel it is very hypocritical that we highlight other countries when we have it here in the news and media.

Its got to a point that even jason roberts has stepped in!

John Terry, Suarez, Sol Campbell accusing the FA of racism, Liverpool fans, Millwall fans (vs Bolton), abuse on Twitter to James Vaughn from a Norwich fan. All from the past year that I can think of.

So we shouldn't talk about racism because it happens in the UK?

hmm...

Hmm...looks like you have missed the point.

The point I am making is that the media reaction to Serbia has exploded. Consider this compared to the  attention Sordell recieved when he claimed to be racially abused at Millwall...

We have the problem just as bad here and I think personally it is hypocritical, ignorant and rude that threads are started with Racism in Eastern Europe when quite frankly the problem exists just as prominently here.

We should highlight it but not point out and label certain countries etcc...that does not solve anything

I am sorry, but this is rubbish.

There is no doubt that racism is still an issue in the UK, but to compare the UK to the post-Soviet European states is ridiculous. The scales are completely different.