Expectations of a Manager

[TonyGilroy]

I'm not really going to make this about Martin Jol. Some posters have had the knives out for him from day one and I've never really understood why. For me he has yet to succeed or fail but the expectations seem surprisingly high.

I assume we all agree that we can't be top six in which case 7th to 10th is what we'd like. That means 50 to 55 points meaning we lose about a third of our matches, draw a third and win a third. Jol isn't realy falling short of that.

We'd like cup runs of course and attacking football but Jol clearly wants that as well as is shown by the sort of player he buys. Ah but of course he can't integrate them or devise suitable tactics.

The point I want to make is if Jol is a failure what about his predecessors. Below I'm only going to mention those that had some success in the last 50 years. All those not mentioned clearly failed.

Bedford Jezzard.

Inherited a good team packed with talent and character but the best he managed was 10th and every other season we flirted dangerously with relegation.

Bill Dodgin.

A great promotion side but just avoided relegation next season.

Alec Stock

Moore, Mullery, Best, Marsh and a cup final but he never managed better than mid table in the old second division.


Malcolm MacDonald.

Two great seasons then a personal implosion.


Mickey Adams

One great season but clearly not right for MAF

Kevin Keegan

Won promotion but with far more money than any of his competitors.


Jean Tigana

Year one was the best we'll ever see but year two was surprisingly insipid and then came melt down

Roy Hodgson

Unequivally a success - the only ever Fulham manager of whom that could be said but he probably left at the right time for his reputation.

Seems to me that Jol is being held to unrealistically high standards.

[RaySmith]

I'm not really going to make this about Martin Jol. Some posters have had the knives out for him from day one and I've never really understood why. For me he has yet to succeed or fail but the expectations seem surprisingly high.

I assume we all agree that we can't be top six in which case 7th to 10th is what we'd like. That means 50 to 55 points meaning we lose about a third of our matches, draw a third and win a third. Jol isn't realy falling short of that.

We'd like cup runs of course and attacking football but Jol clearly wants that as well as is shown by the sort of player he buys. Ah but of course he can't integrate them or devise suitable tactics.

The point I want to make is if Jol is a failure what about his predecessors. Below I'm only going to mention those that had some success in the last 50 years. All those not mentioned clearly failed.

Bedford Jezzard.

Inherited a good team packed with talent and character but the best he managed was 10th and every other season we flirted dangerously with relegation.

Bill Dodgin.

A great promotion side but just avoided relegation next season.

Alec Stock

Moore, Mullery, Best, Marsh and a cup final but he never managed better than mid table in the old second division.


Malcolm MacDonald.

Two great seasons then a personal implosion.


Mickey Adams

One great season but clearly not right for MAF

Kevin Keegan

Won promotion but with far more money than any of his competitors.


Jean Tigana

Year one was the best we'll ever see but year two was surprisingly insipid and then came melt down

Roy Hodgson

Unequivally a success - the only ever Fulham manager of whom that could be said but he probably left at the right time for his reputation.

Seems to me that Jol is being held to unrealistically high standards.

:plus one:

Great post - you are the voice of reason and good sense.

[The Equalizer]

Which suggests to me that you believe that our destiny is set and that we've achieved already as much as we ever will.
Realistic perhaps, but you may as well give up supporting now if you don't think we can hope to achieve more.

Personally, I believe that we have a heck of a lot of potential and the ability to achieve great things. Okay top 4 might be a bit much, but if Everton can get top 6 finishes we certainly can aim for that ourselves.

I don't think Jol can do it for us though, he simply does not seem to have a clue what's going on.

[TonyGilroy]

Of course we can hope for more but expect or demand it?

There are six clubs with massively more wealth than the others and financial "fair play" means that the rest can't even aspire to spend enough of a benefactors money to match them.

Everton's reward for Moyes success of course was to lose him - they won't have any more top six finishes any time soon.

[Artful Dodger]

Trying to compare Jol's reign with that of the likes of Mickey Adams is pointless - we are not in the 90's anymore. I am firmly in the Jol out camp and have been since we were booted out the Eurpopa cup against a mid ranking team from Denmark or somewhere because of Jols tactics.

Quite frankly, apart from the odd 3 or 4 game spurt which has saved us in the last couple of seasons, tactics appear to be non-existent, we play so slowly it is painful and the entertainment value has been zilch. Granted, Hodgson was not all out flair but at least it looked like we had a plan - currently, we look slow going forward and indecisive at the back and that hasn't changed for 2 years under Jol, so it isn't suddenly going to change.

Sometimes in business - and this is a business - you have to recognise when you haven't got the right man and make the tough call.  Time for Mr Kahn to show us what he is made of......

[The Equalizer]

We can certainly expect to beat Burton Albion within 90 minutes. If we can't achieve that we have a problem.

[TonyGilroy]

No one's going to be happy with last night's performance but we've made a mess of matches like that often enough in the past.

Jol finally seems to have players that he wants and it would be crazy to sack him before he's had a chance to bed them in.

My point though is to compare Jol with his predecessors and wonder why he is held to what seem to me to be higher standards.

[Holders]

Because when you change the man at the top you expect him to build upon the foundation that is already there and to move forward from that, certainly to at least maintain the position, which was 8-10th from recollection.

There are structural impediments to a push for top-6 but it's not unrealistic for Khan to expect top-10 from him, target top-8.

The problem seems to lie with the coaching at least as much as the tactics. Hughes is not mentioned in the list above but it seemed to me that he tried to keep the foundation of Roy's discipline to which he added more ambition in away games with some success. I never thought I'd say this but, unlikeable as he was, I don't regard his incumbency as a failure and it would have been good to see another season.

[AnotherVicHalomLoveChild]

Regardless of hope, expectation or indeed pragmatism...

There is also a requirement for the manager to build a positive relationship with fans & to communicate clearly & honestly so as to encourage mutual respect, interest & support

Most of us can take the "bad news" as far as what we can & will achieve

Fact is it's not bad news & that's why we support FFC & not some other prawn sandwich munching outfit

Occasional wonderful results against all the odds give us sufficient glory moments but we never expect a regular top 6 place - do we?

Many from the above list of managers were able to deliver these aspects of the job well

Adams in particular gelled the fans & the side taking us from the bottom of Div 4

Roy & Kevin left to manage England - getting out before it went wrong for them as well?

I don't think Jol ever started as far what was required with the fans

Why?

Does he see us as a stepping stone in the short term?

Is he incapable?

Certainly his command of English appears limited

His communication skills are @ best average, often confusing & contradictory

If he cannot get the message over to us what hope with the players?

We look & perform like an average team @ present (sadly 'Arry was correct as far as that comment is concerned)

Most of us acknowledge that Jol doesn't have much time to sort this out

Quite how I'm not sure

What better options are out there that would come to us..?

So it's Keep Calm & carry on hoping that all will change with a result @ Newcastle

Best to forget the last 5 home match results - for the time being
 

[Bassey the warrior]

Regardless of hope, expectation or indeed pragmatism...

There is also a requirement for the manager to build a positive relationship with fans & to communicate clearly & honestly so as to encourage mutual respect, interest & support

Most of us can take the "bad news" as far as what we can & will achieve

Fact is it's not bad news & that's why we support FFC & not some other prawn sandwich munching outfit

Occasional wonderful results against all the odds give us sufficient glory moments but we never expect a regular top 6 place - do we?

Many from the above list of managers were able to deliver these aspects of the job well

Adams in particular gelled the fans & the side taking us from the bottom of Div 4

Roy & Kevin left to manage England - getting out before it went wrong for them as well?

I don't think Jol ever started as far what was required with the fans

Why?

Does he see us as a stepping stone in the short term?

Is he incapable?

Certainly his command of English appears limited

His communication skills are @ best average, often confusing & contradictory

If he cannot get the message over to us what hope with the players?

We look & perform like an average team @ present (sadly 'Arry was correct as far as that comment is concerned)

Most of us acknowledge that Jol doesn't have much time to sort this out

Quite how I'm not sure

What better options are out there that would come to us..?

So it's Keep Calm & carry on hoping that all will change with a result @ Newcastle

Best to forget the last 5 home match results - for the time being
 

This is completely wrong. His communication skills with the fans are one of his greatest attributes. He seems to always say the right things in interviews. That makes it all the more frustrating that he doesn't transfer what he says to what we do.

[Bassey the warrior]

Because when you change the man at the top you expect him to build upon the foundation that is already there and to move forward from that, certainly to at least maintain the position, which was 8-10th from recollection.

There are structural impediments to a push for top-6 but it's not unrealistic for Khan to expect top-10 from him, target top-8.

The problem seems to lie with the coaching at least as much as the tactics. Hughes is not mentioned in the list above but it seemed to me that he tried to keep the foundation of Roy's discipline to which he added more ambition in away games with some success. I never thought I'd say this but, unlikeable as he was, I don't regard his incumbency as a failure and it would have been good to see another season.

Of course it wasn't really possible to build from what he had given the core players he inherited were aging rapidly. He had to change things, it was forced on him. The irony of course is that due to lack of investment he later signed quite a few old players on a free, older than those that left the club.

[Holders]

You build from the principles, evolution allows new players to integrate into the system.

[TonyGilroy]

I agree that "likeability" is an important asset and of course few of us know the man, usually just the image projected in the media.

Personally, with that major limitation, I like Jol but it's clear that a fair few supporters took against him from the start.

My teeth used to grate whenever I heard Keegan's voice so I guess he must be having that effect on some of us.

That aside whatever the fears or hopes for this season the simple fact is that he has not yet succeeded or failed and that, Hodgson apart, none of his predecessors were unqualified successes with us.

[Bassey the warrior]

I agree that "likeability" is an important asset and of course few of us know the man, usually just the image projected in the media.

Personally, with that major limitation, I like Jol but it's clear that a fair few supporters took against him from the start.

My teeth used to grate whenever I heard Keegan's voice so I guess he must be having that effect on some of us.

That aside whatever the fears or hopes for this season the simple fact is that he has not yet succeeded or failed and that, Hodgson apart, none of his predecessors were unqualified successes with us.

As a person I really like him, he seems very down to earth, honest and with a good sense of humour. This has probably biased my opinion somewhat, not delusionally but in a he will come good sort of way. If it was Hughes who'd had us play such dire football I would not show him the same patience, that man is such an arrogant and egocentric self-promoter.
So yes, a bit of hypocrisy I'll admit. My patience is very thin now though, I'll give him time for the players to settle, should be settled come Christmas.

[BRNicholson]

Personally, whilst I am not firmly in the 'Jol Out' camp, I must admit that were I the top dog at Fulham, my patience would be wearing a little thin.

Since the first day at the club Jol seems to have struggled to fit the current players into his preferred system - those opening games playing three interchangeable attacking midfielders are best forgotten - and his substitutions have always confounded.

Having said that, I have previously stuck up for him as he is clearly limited by budget constraints, an aging squad, and he is trying to get us playing nice attacking football.

However, at the moment we look tactically clueless and regardless of what he says in interviews, if he's not bringing in the players we need then something else needs to change. Every pundit who's watched us this season has remarked on how strategically inept we look - particularly the front six - and even if Jol's not for the exit, he needs to make some tough decisions.

Last night we may have had all the possession but we looked utterly toothless as a cohesive attacking force and against such paltry opposition, that's a real worry. Yes, of course Berbatov will be back in the side come the weekend, but is that even a good thing?

I'd love for Jol to come good now and either adopt a formation to suit his playing staff, or pick a starting eleven to suit his style, but at the moment we seem a bit bewildered and unbalanced. Here's to a win at Newcastle - or even just the birthing signs of a slick penetrative attack. COYW!

[MJG]

Expectations of a Manager:
No matter what the circumstances at the time the manager is in place I expect them to have a plan.
Thais a plan for transfers, be it Tigana style 30M in 30 days or a balanced budget for Jol.
I then expect the team to have some kind of game plane. A proper formation utilizing the players you have.

What I dont expect is to go to a team in the 4th division (no easy games and all that) and play 1 up front. I dont care if you have 2/3/4 supporting midfielders, it means nothing if they dont support. Too often last night Bent was isolated.

Jol just seems to be able to scout old teams he has managed.
He spends 4 or 5 windows trying to get Boateng and he's dropped within a game.
Riise can look for a club, doesn't travel to Sunderland and then drops Briggs after a decent performance.

For the club we can achieve 8th at best. Last 2 years we have got hardly anything off the top 7 when playing them. This year its scramble to get 40 pts and thank god he's in his last year of contract.

[Burt]

History is littered with lower league clubs giving higher level league clubs a run for their money, and we have had our fair share of these through the years. From both sides (giant killer and slain giant).

I am in the "Jol In" camp still. It doesn't mean I am a huge fan of what I have seen over the past couple of seasons, as some of the football on display has been underwhelming.

However, when the current transfer window closes it will largely be his team so give the guy a crack of the whip and see how he does.

My expecations of the team generally are premier league survival and a good cup run. But I would like to see that achieved through entertaining football, being prepared to have a go, beating one of the top teams on occasion, etc. etc. rather than the lacklustre stuff that characterised much of last season.

Lets see how it goes...

[Holders]

History is littered with lower league clubs giving higher level league clubs a run for their money, and we have had our fair share of these through the years. From both sides (giant killer and slain giant).

I am in the "Jol In" camp still. It doesn't mean I am a huge fan of what I have seen over the past couple of seasons, as some of the football on display has been underwhelming.

However, when the current transfer window closes it will largely be his team so give the guy a crack of the whip and see how he does.

My expecations of the team generally are premier league survival and a good cup run. But I would like to see that achieved through entertaining football, being prepared to have a go, beating one of the top teams on occasion, etc. etc. rather than the lacklustre stuff that characterised much of last season.

Lets see how it goes...

Agreed, two league games into the season is not the time to rock the boat.

Let's see how it goes...

[SadOldGit]

Very good post Tony.  Thanks. (Although I can't really agree about Bedford Jezzard.  A character in his own right but not a good man-manager.)
I was very optimistic about Jol when he arrived, but the problem seems to me to be just one of his own making: he is plain stubborn about things.  When they start to go wrong he cannot bear to admit it and sticks to the wrong line of reasoning in his own mind.
I think his treatment of Simon Davies says a lot about him.  Davies was doing well at Spurs but when Jol arrived it was the beginning of the end for him.  Same with us.  Davies was a good playmaker for us, making things happen, but Jol disliked him, so, no matter what was good for the team, out Davies went.
Looking forward though, who on earth  could Genghis bring in to replace him?  Nobody outstanding springs to mind.

[Lighthouse]

Here we go again. Jol picks a good side that has us dominate the first 70 minutes. Then some of us fans moan because it was yet another game when we didn't put players in the box. We didn't bother to throw on a second forward until we had minutes to spare.

My expectations are to see a Fulham side have efforts on goal. Yesterday I would have liked those efforts to be a few from inside the area. Jol himself says we lacked a cutting edge. He doesn't say I should have used a second striker earlier. But he should have done.

So to repeat myself yet again. I don't expect us to win every game. I do expect to want to watch a side who are set up to beat a second division side. Yesterday we had a good team. Some played well, some not so well. But players are not always going to play well. But to play with the tactics of trying to dribble through their packed defence with only one striker in the area. Was just very odd tactics. The same tactics we use against everyone. Jol is a very nice man. But I have yet, since he was at Spuds, to be convinced he knows how to use the players he has.

Expectations? To try and beat a second division side. Not sure we were set up to actually beat anybody before Rodders came on.